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Discussion in 'UO Warrior' started by Poo, Oct 21, 2012.
Is she agressing you before you agress her?
Hmm, that might be the issue. I'll run her again tonight and see if this is the issue. I've tried peacing it to see if that reset the agro but that didn't work, I'll throw a invis in the mix and see what that does....thanks for the insight, I think it might be a user issue
Peacing won't reset the aggro, though if you invis and wait for it to expire that will do it. (Aggro timer is 2 mins from last hit either way)
It would seem that I have been letting it aggro on me rather than the other way around. I'll have to try it tonight and see what gives...
Let me know.
Well I got it to trigger once and I do believe it is a issue I have been making happen. Problem is I've been doing Cora who targets you quicker than I can honor her so tonight the spawn on third level was on my side and I waited 2.5 mins after she targeted me to actually start the fight. Again being maxed damage I was seeing a 10+% damage modifier on top of my bards and 100 DI, I guess it's cause I don't have chiv so no EOO/Slayer bonus but I thought perfection should do this...oh well it seems it's a Picus/user error.
So basically, the property will only proc if aggro is done in a special way and cannot exceed the 300% damage cap? Is this intended to be a property that no one uses?
When I said triggering once I should clarify in that I got it to trigger for the whole Cora, not just once during the fight. I finished her three times last night while studying for a exam I have upcoming so she is a fairly easy thing to farm once a hour or so during a break. I'll, or someone else, will have to make another weapon for another target and see if you do indeed get a bonus or if it is capped and a wasted space but it seemed like I was getting some enhancement from the mod when it worked for this "boss".
This all said the drop rate is still useless and seem to be 60% garg. All I really want is the human shield for my bards but I've recieved three gargs, 5 bows, 6 throwing, 3 garg glasses, one human and 2 ring things.
Where would Stone form fit in this?
This thread is hands down the best explanation we've had on all this DI business! Thanks Logrus.
*casts vote to sticky post*
Does the damage modifier on the different quivers work with any fighting skill or just ranged weapons?
Am i reading that right, where if you didnt care about the luck bonus from honor, and ran 120 chiv, and ran an armor ignoring sampire... you really dont need bushido at all? you could run parry and a shield?
If you have 120 chiv tone it off and tell us what gives...I'd like to see the results.
@zemot Stone form would fit in under the Modifier (like slayers and enemy of one, same as Horrific Beast form from Necro)
Now if I remember way back the quiver damage modifier was an override function. I never investigated how it actually worked but basically, Quiver overrode any damage increase granted by the weapon. So if you Had a Weapon with 50% DI and you put on a quiver, it effectively limited that to 10%. If you had a weapon with 0% DI you'd get 10% from the quiver.
Again that was how it was supposed to work, havent checked it. Basically if you're taking ammo from a quiver you're weapon can only provide a max of 10% DI.
Someone may want to check.
Cetric You're pretty much on point with that statement. 3% damage difference between 120 Chiv EoO and CW, versus Level 10 Perfection
I did some more testing with Quivers and have a few things to share, maybe you can help me make sense of what I have here.
Damage Modifier is an item property that is found only on certain quivers. It works as follows, after all of the damage calculations are made, after all of an opponent's resisitances are calculated, the total amount of damage is increased by the percentage indicated on the quiver. Currently, all of the quivers that possess the item property have a Damage Modifier of 10%.
The above information is from UOGuide.com supposedly taken losely from a FoF post.
Two notes: Direct Damage is non-typed - so it isn't affected by resists. Also, "Damage Modifier" is NOT the same property as "Damage Increase" - it's a property unique to quivers that increases the total damage applied - AFTER resists are calculated. So it ends up being a pretty powerful item. - *The FoF information.*
1 dummy account - 136 hp, high hpr (dog form), 0 resist across the board. - UO CC
1 test account - elf, vendor bought bow (0 damage increase), frostbringer (50 damage increase) - UOI EC with Pinco's UI
I fired several shots until I verified the minimum and maximum damage shown in Pinco's UI (was accurate from my testing).
Elf (str 30, set dex 10, anatomy 0, tactics 0, archery 120) equipped vendor bow (damage increase 0), Pinco's shows damage range 16-20 (testing confirms), equipped Quiver of Rage, Pinco's shows damage range 17-22 (testing confirms), equipped Frostbringer (damage increase 50), Pinco's shows damage range 23-30 (testing confirms), equipped Quiver of Rage, Pinco's shows damage range of 25-32 (testing confirms).
Extra test 1a: (str 80, anatomy 0, tactics 0, archery 120) equipped vendor heavy x-bow (damage increase 0), Pinco's shows damage range 24-29 (testing confirms), equipped Quiver of Rage, Pinco's shows damage range of 26-32 (testing confirms), test 1b (str 125, anatomy 120, tactics 120, archery 120), equipped Ornate Crown, Stormgrips (damage increase 50) Pinco's shows damage range of 67-81, equipped Quiver of Rage, Pinco's shows damage range 69-83 (testing confirms).
Extra test 2: (str 125, anatomy 120, tactics 120, archery 120) equipped Ornate Crown, Stormgrips, Frostbringer (damage increase 100), Pinco's shows damage range of 58-73 (testing confirms), equipped Quiver of Rage, Pinco's shows damage range of 59-75 (testing confirms).
Based off of the above tests; my experience on how Damage Modifier seems to work is drastically different then what I have previously believed (top of the post descriptions) was accurate. If I am correct I would theorize that Damage Modifier is only effecting the base damage values (rounded up, on average was 1-2 extra on min/max damage) on archery weapons, which makes it a significantly mediocre item property as it does not appear to scale based on damage (after resists). I obviously did not test this with aditional damage multipliers (slayers, etc...), so there is the small possibility Damage Modifier might scale better in that instance. If I have gotten anything wrong please let me know.
Edit: I hope that this property isn't functioning properly at this time, as I was shocked to see it has such a miniscule impact presently. Granted I pvp so I will gladly take the 1-2 extra damage, but for anyone that pvms, or in those rare instances you pull off larger shots this property has an insignificant effect.
Thanks for the in depth testing. That corrects my thoughts on the quivers.
As far as I know there are few things which have different modifiers for PvP than PvM.
Those would be
Slayers (Limited to 25% (Not vulnerabilities, I think they work separately)
Enemy of One (Duration limited to 8 seconds in PvP and Damage output limited to 30% at 120)
Spell Damage Capped at 15% or 30%(Focused) for PvP
Dragon Breath Capped at 200 Damage PvP
I think anything else (stone form, grape of wrath etc. ) function the same in PvP as PvM.
How does Focus (like the trait given from those crystals from the Bane Invasion) interact/fall in to this discussion on damage and caps.
I wonder how the 5 DCI factors in from the quivers, does it only work if you have archery? I think most of us use that with the thought that it is a suit mod and not skill based but this thread makes me wonder.
If Pinco's UI is accurate (and it seemed to be while testing), then all that is needed to benefit from the 5 DCI is that the quiver is equipped (character sheet visibly adjusted just like the damage ranges). I will admit that it is difficult to actually test and verify, because of all the chance involved, but I would say its safe to reason that Lower Ammo cost (and the weight reductions), Damage Modifier, and the damage type modifications are the item properties that require archery.
That is good to know. I thought it should but who knows
Focused Weapons function like Slayer/Stone form Damage Modifier type. Not Weapon Damage Increase type.
My Arch/Palladin lives white 105, the Chiv/Mage/Hider Shard Traders white 80 and the Mace/Protection/Sampire white 65 + 30 Jewels.
I don t need more.
Think im still very high if i see others.
So, if you are at the cap, it actually hurts you.
That's correct, if you are already at the Cap (say using a targeted slayer) then you'd only be getting hurt since you wouldn't get any benefit from the hits when you are getting damage bonus. Typically I wouldn't stick it on a slayer weapon unless it was a super slayer, but for non-slayer vulnerable entities, it works pretty well. Though you can always turn it off with the context menu when you don't need it.
Really? I didn't realize that... thanks!
I have used this on a weapon and it seems to follow what is posted on uoguide
Rage Focus is an item property found on weapons that causes the damage inflicted to start off below -40% of the weapon's base damage but steadily rises until it is +20%. I can surpass the 300% damage cap. In effect, initial damage is lower than normal, but eventually reaches a point where the attacks are higher than otherwise possible before the cycle ends and then begins to repeat.
Overall, the effect of the property is to give more cumulative damage when used than when not, with less damage initially and then more damage conclusively."
So are we talking about the same thing?
Now I never tried a slayer weapon, also I may never have been above the 300 cap either now that I think about it.
There are 2 forms of damage increasing mechanisms.
There is Damage Increase or DI which basically is a multiplier on the base damage of the equipped weapon. All damage increasing factors together can get you an additional 300% to the base damage of the equipped weapon.
So if you used a weapon with base damage of 20, after taking into consideration strength, tactics skill, anatomy, damage increase on the weapon and items and any abilities that affect damage increase, you could get up to 300% more damage(60), for a total damage of 80.
This 80 is your attack damage. Damage Modifiers such as slayers are multipliers of your attack damage. Your base multiplier is 100%, but can be increased by slayers, perfection, enemy of one, and other abilities, up to 300%. Since this is a multiplier, and it starts at 100%, the max you can get is 3x your attack damage or 3x80 = 240 in this example.
To deal the most damage possible, you have to max your attack damage as well as your modifiers. In the case of Rage Focus, it acts at a multiplier, so your first hit starts by giving you a multiplier of 60% (So you'd be hitting for 48 with the above weapon example) and then finally capping out at 120% (or 96)
Trying to dig up the memory, but it should be 5 swings in penalty each doing 8% more damage, until you hit 0% penalty, then 10 swings each doing 2% damage, and 5 swings at 20% damage.
the total damage works out
-40 + -32 + -24 + -16 + -8 + 0 + 2 + 4 + 6 + 8 + 10 + 12 + 14 +16 +18 +20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 20
Total penalty -120%
Total Bonus = 210%
Net Bonus = 90%
To get the most bang for the buck, since the bonuses stack with most specials, hitting those specials while in the bonus stages can be very rewarding.
As opposed to hitting them on every swing like we do now? I mean, uh, no offense but I haven't had a meaningful PVM fight where less than 50% of my swings were Armor Ignores in ages. LMC and mana leech aren't that hard to cap.
You could still hit them on every swing if you wanted to and you'd see increased damage. In cases like that the overall damage is still positive but in PvM tactical application of bonuses is rarely a concern. Since the weapon rage focus effect takes place in both PvM and PvP, tactical usage of the bonus is a valid strategy in some applications, while there is no penalty to just blindly swinging away. It is tactically rewarding so to speak.
All right, so this made me decide to do some math. For the sake of convenience I'm pretending we do a base damage of 100 per hit, and that everything we're hitting has 70% resistance to whatever damage we're doing. So basically 30 damage per hit. That's rather high, but I only care about the relative proportions here anyway.
That bonus is 90% of one hit, over a sequence of 20 hits.
Damage sans focusing: 600
Damage with focusing: 627
Not exactly lighting the world on fire when I put it that way. Aha, but let's suppose that we chain six armor ignores in a row, when the bonus is peaking if we're using it. Here's us hitting a target with 70 resist, decimals rounded to nearest whole numbers.
Damage sans focusing: 1020
Damage with focusing: 1126
That's a little bit better, but only a little. I'm still not getting very excited about the damage bonus for cleverly timed specials though, and even these numbers are ludicrously optimistic. Consider the following.
1) In PVM you'll be chaining specials constantly, as stated.
2) You won't be chaining 6 specials in a row in PVP due to mana.
3) Armor ignore is capped at 35 damage in PVP anyway.
Add all this together and focusing is just nowhere near being worth the headache of counting your hits, or being kicked back into the penalty phase if you have to switch targets at some point. In PVP I imagine it's even more annoying, since you want/need to hurt your target NOW, not fifteen hits from now.
Looking at the average price of the spell focusing sash versus the Corgul sash, the market considers the addition of the focusing property to be worth about negative 500k.
I don't think it's the sash but the gem that will work for weapons. The gem would work best on a situation where you will be fighiting one fairly static target only, say Riktor/Cora/Corgul/Styg Dragon etc.
The sash is more used for the 5 DCI it gives.
1- It's not all that helpful with targets (unless I misunderstood something) like Rikktor and the Stygian Dragon because it doesn't break the 300% cap, and with a Dragon Slayer- you are at the cap.
2- I think that Klomp is saying that if Spell Focusing were considered useful- that the sash would be worth more. Personally- I think it's a lot more useful in than the weapon version since spell damage increase isn't capped in PvM. But, are you going to take off your Lt sash for it? If a suit is built right, yeah, the spell focus one could be useful- more so that the weapon one.
3- I think that as long as you have optimal weapons and skills, the only time the weapon focus is going to be useful is when fighting a creature that has a lot of hit points and no slayer (ie- Cora), against a mob with a slayer of any kind, you are probably hitting the 300% damage cap anyway.
I completely misread his post.
If you have finite mana, to deal as much damage as possible, if there's a way to get a 10-20% bonus on top of that by sacrificing 5 hits at lesser damage, for a 10 swing damage window where you can get that bonus.
Why wouldn't you?
Or in the case of the sash, why wouldn't I sacrifice 5 magic arrows which do squat damage and cast quickly for the chance to drop 2flame strikes for an extra 6-10 damage each.
It might be small damage in the number sheet, but the insurance I collect from the guy that thought he could heal through a mana dump with every shot at 20% makes that sash a 500k steal for me.
Not to mention the hilarity that ensues when my LJ crits someone during the focus phase and the 60+ damage numbers go off followed by 2 50's without me even using mana.
If you were only hitting for 20, and hit on focusing you'd still be getting an extra 20 damage over those 5 swings. If you were flame striking a target thats still 20-30 extra damage over the strikes.
20 extra damage over a 5 attack duration without even using a special attack. To me that's a no brainer. That's a tactical bonus.
The damage numbers have nothing to do with optimism, you might want to head over to TC and try em out.
I don't really need to list all the reasons why starting out at, and regularly descending back into, a large damage penalty against every new target you engage could be a drawback in PVP do I? I'm sure you can think of some.
Do the positives outweigh the negatives? That's a subjective question, but the market makes it clear that the playerbase has resoundingly said no. These items, the gem and the sash, are the only sources of unique item properties, and were only available for a couple of months. They should be horribly expensive and jealously hoarded, not languishing on vendors for pitiful prices. A Halloween pumpkin with a random player name on it is several times more valuable than a focusing gem.
If they're so great, why aren't they worth anything?
Do the positives outweigh the negatives? Its a free property on a +5 DCI item or the weapon of your choice, which you can disable when it isn't appropriate to use.
As for lack of support from the player base, your argument against the property is a good indication of the mentality of the player base. If its not a guarantee, work every time in every situation, then 90% of the player base will say forget it.
Some of items which offer significant potential benefits can be picked up for 100-500k. And when I find said items I chuckle, vendor buy, and put them to use or stockpile them.
As for the player base being more than a source for popular opinion versus tested fact, you can just take a look at this thread and see that the same playerbase says "run with 84" chiv because thats all you need for 100% proc on Consecrate. Same player base that maybe 5% bothered to test 120 chiv. Of that 5% that tried it, how many popped enemy of one and consecrate while PvPing? How many of that same player base have tested the focusing gems or sashes, a casting focus suit on a scribe mage, surge, or a resonant item?
I looked at the numbers, I tested, and I put into play. Through those actions, -I- have found these properties useful and effective when exploited to their fullest potential.
But then again, I also sometimes bring a bard to PvP battles, I must be crazy.
Oh come on now. We didn't turn our noses up at all those SA item properties because we were dumb philistines incapable of appreciating them. We turned their noses up because none of those properties were worth giving up anything we already had.
Casting focus? Resonance? Man we've got like 400 other things we need to cap on our suits in this stupid game, and all those other things work more than 12% of the time on every third Tuesday when hit with fire damage by a left-handed balron.
Don't get me wrong, if you put a crystal in the game that let us slap those properties onto anything we wanted we'd probably use them, but by and large we're not into equipping some garbage artifact with stats worse than our imbued stuff just because it has Surge Stamina Regeneration or something on it.
It's not because we can't understand new things. We went bonkers for Splintering Weapon.
It's not because we won't use anything with drawbacks. Everyone loves Enemy of One and slayer weapons, and those will get your face ripped off if the wrong thing hits you.
But the Rage Focusing property? Man the drawbacks are real, the complexity is relatively high, and the overall damage bonus probably won't crack double digit percentages even if you live and die for it. It just wasn't worth the trouble.
I love the fact that you're a former dev who still plays the game and posts about it. I love that you're that into this. But when it comes to whether this or that addition is worth using, I weigh the dispassionate verdict of the masses more heavily than the protestations of the spurned artist.
This playerbase is no smarter, or stupider, or less curious than any other. Things that didn't fly with them wouldn't have flown with any other pack of random slobs if you made them play the game.
Sadly Logrus has passed along more actual game relevent information in this thread than the rest of the team has in the last 6 months. While I'm not sure what real effect the gems or other items have since reading his postings I have made a 120 chiv guy and am blown away from the result. I just messed around with this char with some fake PVP against a friend and am shocked with the damage....again, thanks for the lead.
Yes, many thanks to Logrus. None of this stuff would've occurred to me otherwise. None of it.
Does anyone have any advice on how to raise Chivalry from GM to 120? Seems little to do other than cast Noble Sacrifice over and over again but the gains seem rather slow.
I think I'm going to go to 110 on one character and then use the Sign of Order to get to 120. Will the EOO damage check on real skill or can altered skill count?
All you can do is cast NS or buy/farm pinks. I would think that the result should be the same real or not but it would be good to test your guy and then compare to a similar build on the test server. If you did this sharing the results would be good also.
There is a typical all or nothing mentality that the player base has.
The reason i listed those properties is because they are not guaranteed. They are not something you sit there relying to make up for your gameplay ability. They don't introduce a new playstyle or template. If you max casting focus or resonance on any caster, they aren't suddenly going to become uber, or run around never being interrupted. You stick it on a caster who's already making the most of their spell timings, and choices, and they are going to do a little better. Maybe get that arch cure or gheal off when you may have been interrupted and save your life, OR get that flame strike off and finish off some one because they thought you got interrupted but focus or resonance pulled through.
I'm not saying the masses ignore stuff because they are dumb or uninformed. What I am saying is that the trend embraced by those same masses is along the lines of all or nothing. If LRC was capped below 100% so reagents were still required sometimes, I guarantee you if that cap was only 90%, most people would just take it off their suits altogether.
The property would still be useful but given its no longer guaranteed/reliable, and then probably avoided by the player base.
On my PvM char I don't find rage focus that useful. On my PvPing LJ much mroe useful
On my PvM mage, I dont use casting focus or resonance, or spell focusing. On My PvP Focused mage, I use all 3. PvP Mystic mage, I use casting focus and resonance but not spell focusing.
The same goes for a some specials items they may not be great for every situation, but in a few situations they are really helpful. A nice sure shield drop can give you a bit of extra hci, and you can imbue max dci on it which isn't bad. If its got HP surge thats a free boost to healing on the run for my mage, a bit of extra mana regen or stamina regen for a ninja in wolf form is also helpful. Game changing, not really, just a little extra.
I'm not arguing that everyone should jump on it like its the next splintering weapon.
But exploiting those little extras in the best way does make more of a difference.
For example, say a mage casts flame strike at 100 base damage after max SDI/Eval Int etc.
With spell focusing that jumps to 120.
@70's thats about 6 pts difference against a cursed target thats 8 pts damage difference 30 vs 36 and 40 vs 48
Again not that much. Put that on a focused mage @ max sdi and thats a base of 135 damage (40 vs 70resists ,54 vs 60resists)
Its not a guaranteed, and its requires an investment, of attention, skill, and playstyle, and after all that its still only a possibility. The overall player base is usually not willing to make that type of investment on a possibility.
Its not a judgement on whether its right or wrong, its just an observation on how they make up their mind. Personally, I have a few characters that follow the majority of the player base, and then I have a few designed to exploit those possibilities.
EoO checks on modified skill, not real skill.
I for one openly admit to favoring certainty over possibility. It's why I've stick to Chivalry for so long despite the jaw-dropping potential of Bushido's Perfection and Lightning Strike. Chivalry to me offers certainty. Did so before the changes and seems to by the changes now offer a wider range of possibilities at both ends, but has maintained some degree of certainty.
I like that.
I recognize, however, that in sticking to certainty over possibility I'm handicapping myself. I accept that.
Many thanks. If I end up able to test it formally I'll be sure to share my results. However I normally am able to test things only informally and using highly subjective criteria. "Wow, that worked well." "Wow, that didn't work all that good." "Wow, that didn't work at all."
You don't just "stick it on" though. You go out and get a Defender of the Magus shield with some Resonance on it, equip it, and now you're down some DCI from your imbued shield. So you put on a DCI sash instead of your lieutenant sash. Now you're down 5 int, 2 MR, and 10 LRC. Whoops, hope you didn't need that LRC, because if so then you need to change something else to get it back.
Suddenly that new shield and its almighty one-in-five chance at a one-in-ten chance to avoid fizzling when damaged doesn't look so important.
I mean you can't imbue these properties. If you want to cap them you're going to have to design around the quirks of at least two or three different artifacts, and most of the artifacts are junk. Surge Mana Regen would probably be really popular if it came on anything good, but no one wants that stupid Surge Shield with no DCI.
There is a three-part equation of utility, reliability, and convenience which dictates whether or not any new addition will see widespread adoption, and the things you're talking about just do not meet the standard. Complaining bitterly about how players in a fair and just world would totally jump through any number of hoops for a small chance at a small increase in some ability doesn't change that.
We're not under some obligation to use whatever you add, man. You put in that Defiler of Virtue sword for that one event, then told us you felt mana leech on a slayer was overpowered when we complained that it didn't have any. Like we were just going to shut up and take our medicine. Instead we went "okay" and threw the swords on vendors for half the price of a good runic.
I think you missed my whole point.
If the player base decides something is junk, and doesn't want to use it. That's completely fine.
I don't think its helpful, productive or useful, to stick stuff in the game and then force players to use it.
UO is a sandbox so give em some tools and let the players play.
Here's a couple of items that you CAN use. You jump through a few hoops or make a some trade offs, and you can exploit them fully. Do you have to? Nope.
My purpose is to point out how the things work, in the hopes that a few people may take those tools and run with them and see what they can do with them. I don't post the how's and why's to educate myself.
If a dev were to add ANY item or skill to the game, that was better in its category than anything else why would you use anything else?
Your 15+ Mil Crimson Cinture/Tangle or 40 Mil Lieutenant sash are perfect examples of MUST HAVE items because there's just no competition in those slots. I'd say its those Items that are "Shoved Down your throat" and taken as your medicine because there is no real alternative.
Is there ANY possible valid reason not to use them aside from price or wanting to give yourself a handicap?
There's been nothing given in those items that your forced to use. Nothing there thats a MUST HAVE. I'm extremely satisfied with that. The fact that some of the quirky players who like to branch out, like to play in the sand and experiment with everything that they can, is just cream filling.
I ain't askin you to like it, I aint askin you to use it, but it sure as hell is in game for those that might.
So why didn't you add some legitimate competition instead of novelty items worth less than a pumpkin?
And thats the crux of the complaint isnt it.
A simple answer too. Between imbuing and the new loot system, players are able to obtain items which are as good as, sometimes better than, and almost always more suitable and useful than any artifact a dev can create. So a dev making an item either has to make it ridiculously powerful (ie a must have) or do something that other items can't. I find that the ridiculously powerful approach is a slippery slope, as it basically makes competition from player crafting, or other loot pretty useless and creates high priced items that players grind to farm, or only the rich can buy. So I'd rather take the second approach and make a novelty item, that doesn't add to that slippery slope, while at the same time providing some utility to players who want to exploit it.
I can't imbue alternatives to the crimmy, tangle, or lieutenant sash you just referenced. Nor can I find them as dungeon loot. In the seven years since Mondain's Legacy we've seen a whopping one new item for the belt slot, but probably ten different swords no one wanted. Why is that?
All of these wacky little small-bonus item properties should be on boots and cloaks and stuff, not on armor and weapons where they compete with imbuing. The spell focusing sash was actually well-positioned in that regard, it was just the item property that never caught on.
Boots with resonance on them. Earrings with surge. People would use these and they wouldn't break the game. I was actually pretty interested in that karma-aligned mana burst property, but who wants to wear that crummy armor it comes on?