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Discussion in 'Archive of Previous Tests' started by Phoenix_Mythic, Apr 14, 2010.
He'll be back! It's what his 3-4th time quitting? I'm just playyying xoxoxo?
As a hardcore pvper, I'd say those new faction bases are awesome when compared to old ones. It's possible to teleport in faction bases and they are wide (about 5-7 squares) which means that you can't just camp there 24/7 keeping para fields and couple of e fields up (also known as "one-tile pvp").
Scoreboard looks very cool except Stealth category, it looks extremely stupid and should be removed. (I mean WTF?)
Then some other changes I'd made:
1. Remove or atleast nerf smoke bombs.
2. Remove fast ninja forms. (atleast so that stealthers wouldn't be able to use them)
3. Disable hiding and stealth abilities while holding sigil.
4. Put faction skill loss down to 10 min from 20 min to make pvp more appealing for new players.
(have also that bar which would indicate how much time before skills restore as someone already mentioned)
5. Please let ppl of Felucca pvp, let everyone wear every faction artie in order to give new players a chance to get into factions. Disabling the pvm use of faction arties could be done that way the arties would drop to backpack when leaving the land of Felucca.
PvMers could farm their norm arties from doom etc. if they want to do PvM.
PvPers could PvP without farming norm arties from boring places like doom.
If I wanted to PVP all the time, I would just go to yew gate or do a spawn....what you are suggesting is PVP not Faction play.
And for the next suggestion: do away with thieves and the sigils.
Factions is a PvP system. If you don't want PvP don't play factions.
I guess I should of broke it down for you Lynk, had I wanted that type of PVP I would go to yew gate.
I think the new wide faction bases will make sigil pvp decent once again althought with 2 conditions:
1.Disable stealth and hiding as i already mentioned (absolutely necessary on smaller shards like the european ones, EU and DF which i play.)
2.Make sure stealing sigil and controlling it is worth the trouble.
As for Arabella, it's inevitable that faction and guild pvp are pretty much melted together now. If you are factioner and you do a spawn, both can attack there normal guilds and faction guilds. It's just the fact faction players are usually more skilled as they are willing to the risk of skill loss.
I never see you anywhere, but in our base and only then to disrupt the defense, you wouldn't know if I pvp or not.
Given that you just recently started even playing Ultima Online, much less designing for it, I'll happily point out to you how completely and totally off-base you are, and what non-responsible-developer nonsense that statement you just made is.
A red is no more or less any other character in the context of roleplay or action than any other color in the game. Yes, there are some who are non-repentant serial killers. There are also some who go red because they've taken the responsibility of fighting the good fight no matter what color the enemies he's presented with.
Way, way, way back in the day, both of my main characters were red. I hardly think you'd find a person on the shard who would have referred to either one of them as "non-repentant serial-killers."
Just because you've put a system (sometimes buggy, by the way) into the game doesn't mean that it's 1 or 0, black or white, good or evil, on or off.
There are a great many honorable reds in this game, and by your wide-sweeping statement, you dishonor not only the roleplay that is sometimes derived of red characters, but the intent of those who defend against the "good" blues of this land who hide behind their notoriety in order to commit heinous acts.
Perhaps you should learn a little bit more about the game before you start coding for morality. Because that mistake you just made is one of the fundamental truths that made UO the game that it was so very many years ago.
That's not actually how the saying goes. Cleverness fail.
Ladies and Gentlemen ... May I have your attention. This thread will now resume its regularly scheduled "program" of UO Test Center discussion.
This forum is for constructive debates! not posturing and fighting or name calling or making accusations! please lets get back on track here!
The worst thing about factions, is stat loss...thats 20 min's. to do something else, and if your not a great pvp'er then why even bother. Anything would be better then the current system.
Another issue is "The PVP in fel only game we have now", People do not like being herded to a fraction of the game board that's controled by 1 or 2 oversized grief guilds to PVP. As i remember it, Red's are stuck in fel as punisment, But that should not be the only place for the game's players to PVP, This was a mistake and that's why so many people complained when you removed O/C.
Another issue is Skill scrolls, You can not expect people to join murder guilds just to advance themself's, Even if you made it 10x harder to get scrolls out of fel people would be glad to try, as it is now, 1 or 2 guilds control this part of the game on every shard and like i already said dont expect people even to try if you need to be a red or a murder guild member.
I'd like to see O/C brought back, expanded to include a 3erd...but thats just me...
Im sure it will all workout...
My research package #2 (not only faction research):
1. Remove all guardzones from felucca, i mean what for are they for? (if you feel going GZ is only way to prevent dying, go to trammel then)
Very often there are 4 blues just standing at yew gate and waiting to get an opportunity to gank someone... (nice pvp isn't it?)
2. Make a change to player houses in fel, restrict using them and that way disable the advantage people are having by owning a house near yew gate.
3. Fix one very nasty and unpleasant bug. (im not even sure if it's bug actually)
When you try to cast teleport near someone's house, it will just say "Cannot teleport that area". Please remove it...
If the new faction rules goes into effect can we have an option to not gain points in factions. I have a couple faction chars such as a thief that doesn't wear faction items and therefore doesn't need points.
It seems to me as if your setting these bases up for roleplayers and not for the pvpers that still remain.
I wont bash, becuase its not going to solve anything.
Maybe you could think about allowing faction's in trammel now. Most of the carebears as there called hang in luna and malas anyway.
Actually, if you read what they actually said, they were specifically designed for hard-core PvPers, at least in the outline and structure of the bases. Not hard-core Factioners, who are in Factions for Factions, but hard-core PvPers, who are in Factions to find an excuse to fight.
You can tell this, aside from the team members' own statements, from the way the strongholds are not built around siege/defense PvP, like goes on in Factions currently, but around open field PvP. I am told, for example, that it's nearly impossible to mount a castle-style defense in the new strongholds, they are simply too big and the corridors too wide.
Now, granted, that's an improvement over the Shadowlords base, which is un-raidable due to a line of sight issue at the ridiculously narrow, one-tile choke point. But hopefully it's not a matter of either/or, either un-raidable or un-defensible, hopefully they will try to find a middle ground.
I suppose the trimmings of the strongholds were designed with RP in-mind, or at least they tried, but they appear to have failed, at least by my reckoning. They didn't think it through, RP-wise. The characters still in Factions are going to be more hard-core, gritty, practical types, and are not going to be impressed by opulent strongholds. (The characters in Minax and Shadowlords, for example, are unlikely to be impressed by the "vampire chic," that's Mark's own term, of the Guardian's Legion stronghold.) The new NPC Faction Leaders would be smart enough, one would hope, to design new strongholds that would appeal to the current Faction fighters, and these strongholds wouldn't do that.
Allowing Faction fighting in the Trammel facets would be a stupid idea, along multiple levels, but the most compelling argument is simply that even the hard-core Factioners like having a place to rest, interact with each other without fighting, and buy/sell goods. To the hard-core Factioners, the Trammel rules facets are a kind of weird semi-neutral ground, kinda like Casablanca during WW2 (or, at least how Casablanca is portrayed in movies and myth). It would be a loss if that were no longer the case.
The "deserter" code they appear to be playing with, where the Faction Artifacts become unwearable if a character isn't engaged in Faction activities, is by far a better idea.
What worries me is the weird combination of several errors.
1. Catering to hard-core PvPers, as opposed to hard-core Factioners. (When I make the distinction, by a hard-core Factioner I mean someone who cares about Factions for its own sake. And by a hard-core PvPer, I mean someone who is in Factions for the fights, and less so for Factions in and of itself.) The hard-core Factioners want to be able to defend and lay siege, want to be able to care about the end goal, owning the towns, more than the combat itself. These players, the hard-core Factioners, kept Factions alive for years and years with both hard-core PvPers and RPers had mostly lost interest. They should be listened to a great deal more than they are.
2. The badly thought out RP. I am certainly all in-favor of RP being the driving force behind the Factions changes. However, the thought they put into the new strongholds, and really the new system in general, is better suited to another game and another situation, not UO and not the situation the Felucca facet faces. They appear to have designed strongholds better suited to, say, the Forgotten Realms from D&D. If they brought Factions to, say, Malas? Opulent strongholds would then surely make sense. Characters who were going to fight over Malas would care more about aesthetics. Characters who are going to fight over Felucca, however, would be more practically-oriented.
Those two are a bad combination; it potentially makes the Faction changes able to please no one.
I wouldn't mind seeing sigils not require stealing to take, just double click and put in ur pack. but hey, thats just me.
Reply involving faction sigil fights, I really don't see anything bad on the new bases, they are just fine. What I agree is, its now way too easy to steal sigils with stealther and it doesn't require that good playing skills (grab & go practically). To make sigil steal more harder, the sigil carrier should suffer from handicaps. Such as, no hiding, no stealth, no mounting...
One handicap i would consider very interesting is some kind of tracker that shows where the sigil carrier is. For example if you steal sigil with GL char from FT's base, all FT players could see where the carrier is from a map. That would generate very intense conflicts where one faction would try to defend the sigil carrier and another would try to eliminate him/her. Then if the 3rd faction would get info about fight going on...
It would basically mean the action would happen in forest, which is open space, perfect for big fights.
Oh my. lol
I couldn't do it.
Anyone who has seen a good Faction Sigil thief at work cannot possibly endorse this statement, save out of jealousy or anger at losing.
And anyone who hasn't seen a good Faction Sigil thief at work, should.
This is, of course, why Defenses and Sieges happen at all, because without them a good thief can sneak in and take it from you.
Frustrating when it happens to you, sure....But those are the players who kept Factions alive for years and years when hard-core PvPers had no particular interest in it, after AoS took away stat loss for PKs.
"Too easy?" No, I'm afraid not. "I can't catch them" and "it's too easy to do" are not the same thing.
UO is always a balance between templates that are legitimately over-powered, and templates that simply appear over-powered because others haven't figured out how to fight them yet. While Faction Sigil stealing isn't quite the same thing as open field PvP, a similar principle applies. Just because you can't beat someone doesn't mean their template is too easy to play or that it's over-powered. Sometimes it does, of course, but sometimes it just means you need to get better. In the case of Faction Sigil thieves, it's very hard to sustain a rational case that it's "too easy" to do what they do.
I play a faction thief given that I only play it sometimes when we really give a **** about sigils (usually to get horse vendor for new players). If you think stealing sigil is anything but easy and if you have skill of a monkey you shouldnt really be caught... Ultima Online is probably too difficult for you. My thief is not even PvP capable. I only have 90 stealing (item to 120)... I dont know maybe this thing is only easy for me but they might actually be challenging for certain people that's learning to play?
The big base is imo not very good. It makes the already retardedly easy and you are making it easier. And the only thing I will miss the small bases a LOT because my guild is the smallest and the only hardcore faction guild on my shard (we had war and conquered, we have yet to lose a guild war since 7 years ago, all the ones that tried lost or surrendered our last GW was us 30ish chars vs server's biggest 150ish chars, they surrendered at 400ish vs 1100 kills), we do get zergged out a lot. We usually use SL base to field off some newbie archers when the fields are playing 20 vs 3 in their favor (and this HAPPENS very very regularly).
Any thief with the skill to smokebomb at the right time and knows how to deal with passive reveals shouldnt have much problem stealing sigils... but again maybe it's just easy for me?
If you read what he said he is saying with the new bases it would be to simple, at least that is how I read it. Perhaps I am the one taking the statement wrong, but it seems more like you are taking it out of context, the context is within the new system they are currently testing, and if you think it is hard to steal the sigils from the new bases....well then maybe you need more practice. Also it can only be difficult in the current system if there is a real defense going on, or it could just be plain impossible due to the 1 tile entrances all the bases have currently.
War, nothing you said is wrong, but stealing the sigils could be a challenge if the right people are putting up the right defense, other wise....yea it is far to easy.
So so, taking it personally? Sorry to disappoint you but sigils are just air for me. I really don't remember last time I was really bothered if somebody stole our sigil...
With the current rules, fast ninja forms, smoke bombs, shadow jumps and crap (pots, apples, trapboxes, all restock you'd use with any other char as well) like that it's nearly impossible to die in dead shard like Europa if all you want is to get away. Just imagine when there is 1 or 2 ppl defending the base, how impossible it is to catch thieves especially now that you can use Shadow Jump in bases in order to cross the e-fields without getting revealed. I don't say its impossible with tracking/detect hidden chars but come on, its hard. Although who cares about sigils since they are almost worthless atm.
There are certain reasons why I want sigil carriers to be more handicapped. (manhunters vs. escorters FTW)
But hey, I can't judge you, some people prefer stealthing...
Then why are you talking about this at all?
You are not a Faction player, then. You are, quite likely, a PvPer who sees Factions as an excuse to fight.
All Faction Players are PvPers by definition, whether they admit it or not. However, not all PvPers, even those in Factions, are Faction Players.
To me, a Faction Player is someone who plays to win Factions. By definition, that means caring about the towns, which means caring about the Sigils.
Based on his response to me, you did actually read him wrong.
There is nothing to stop PvPers from joining Factions to use it as an excuse to fight.
But why on earth, then, participate in discussions about Sigils at all?
And that's just the point.
Sure, it's easy if there's no opposition.
I didn't specify that because it seemed a tad too obvious.
Yes? It's easy if you have no opposition. Yes. I don't see the point of bringing that up, though, because isn't facing and overcoming opposition kind of the point?
Doesn't matter whether i am player like or i am not player like that when the system is just totally crap. Makes no sense stealthers can steal the sigil so easily. And yes you are right about the fact im more like pvper than factioner if i have choose between those 2 categories you mentioned. Just remember, right when controlling sigil becomes worthwhile, i sure want to control all of them.
Get better at detecting them.
That's what PvP is about, right? Competition?
And they should not design the system to entirely cater to you, which is what they are transparently doing, for just that reason.
*shrugs* Catering to people who move from thing to thing, moment to moment, never really gets you anyplace compared to catering to stable loyalty.
Geese man I play UO for fun. Games are made for having fun, not for committing pacts that demand loyalty. What I know, at least about 90% real pvpers that are still playing actively don't consider chasing stealthers as good entertainment. And yes games are just temporary way to spend spare time for me, not something which i would throw my whole life to.
Funny, I keep reading about all the commitment that PvP takes, and how pathetic the Trammies are for not committing to it.
Something else that requires commitment is made fun of though.
I'll rephrase, in case EA is reading....There are those, I am actually not among them, who have been entertained by Factions for years, and would like for the new system to contain more aspects of what has long-entertained them than the current Faction revamp does.
The crowd you are currently pitching the system to, the more direct confrontation PvP crowd, will by contrast be entertained by anything that involves PvP. The Factions crowd, the real Factions crowd, has more particular tastes, and they are loyal customers of yours, at least so far.
There's no need to alter Factions beyond the point that'll it'll no longer be entertaining to the people who were entertained by it for years and years.
It would be a bad business decision.
For what it's worth, I have a feeling you'd agree with much of what I said here:
I forgot, though, when I made that post to also endorse smaller and scaled-down Faction Strongholds (from the current new design on the test shard).
There has got to be a middle ground between, say, the current Shadowlord stronghold (which is basically un-radiable due to a line of sight issue, especially if the fielding is scripted), and the new Strongholds, which I am told are largely un-defensible.
It is unfortunate, but the lack of developer responses on Factions lately may indicate another abandonment of improving this system. Summer is here and it is time to look forward to this fall's expansion. Unless Factions is a focus of said expansion, they won't have time to develop this anymore.
Such is the life of PVP improvements. Always being put on hold for expansions.
What!? OMG I go on Hiatus for four weeks and the whole place goes to hell. What happened around here? Stratics drama, factions non drama. Expansion drama, bards getting love. Madness, I say, absolute madness.
At least some of the names are still familiar.
Has anything of note happened on the test shard since the score reset?
No. Absolutely not a single word from the developers since Test Factions came back up.
could be they are making a pvp expansion or maybe a classic shard expansion
either way pretty sure it has not been forgotten or dropped
just guessing ;-)
Is the faction TC still around? Considering re-activating to check it out...
I believe that's currently on tc1
Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, I have tried to read most of the thread.
Regarding with the above quote, what about tieing some of the buffs you would normally have on faction arties to the towns and factions themselves and add in a bonus to crafters/merchants. I liked the silver idea, but those that don't care if they fall into the good, evil or rich category will probably just join the faction most active...controlling the most towns. I would call this the un-official "smart rich" folks that want the most valuable silver.
Good and bad are obvious choices for most. But rich wont join a wild-card faction just because they want to be in the "rich" guild. They will simply go where the money is. So there would need to be a substantial reason to be in a rich folks faction and a reason to be active.
My suggestion would be giving a substantial base bonus to each faction just for joining. These bonus' are constantly active for each faction member across all facets in PvP/PvM as long as the faction controls at least one town. Off the top of my head:
good faction: 10% damage reduction
bad faction: 10% damage/spell damage increase
rich faction: 20% reduced vendor fees.
Next give even more buffs to faction members related to the town that is controlled again these buffs are permanently active on all facets and for each faction char as long as they control the town awarding the buff. Some examples:
+20% chance to find rare gems or select SA resources while mining
+20% chance to find rare gems or select SA resources while LJ
+20% value to zoo collection turn in points
+20% chance to find rare gems or select SA resources while Fishing
This would give folks a reason to want to take a town. There are carrots to chase for all in the form of stat buffs and items. To help balance out one big faction from controlling it all, you could adjust sig corruption times from hours (controling one town) to minutes (controlling 8 towns) And give much higher points to smaller faction who take action against larger ones. Just a thought from a faction noob. (joined tb last week)
Giving the bonuses for anyone that joins the faction is unfair for the real PvPers who really do the work in order to capture the town. Therefore those bonuses should only work in Fel and when engaging PvP-combat. Factions are for PvP, not trammie gold farming.
I'd like to see them make other aspects of Factions mean more, like town control. That way it wouldn't just be about mindless PvP, but strategic PvP with goals.
I'd like them to do away with Faction arties all together, or make them cost CONSIDERABLY more and only be availible in controlled towns to the controlling Faction.
I'd like all "Faction Monsters" removed entirely.
I'd like whatever faction money they go with to NOT be bankable or better yet, you can only deposit/withdraw it through Faction Banks, seperate from the regular bank. And those would be in towns, not bases. If your faction doesn't control the town, you can't use the bank to retrieve your faction coin. Or you have to carry it with you.
I like that they are trying to be more inclusive to other templates besides pure pvp templates.
And I like that they are coming up with new fiction/rp behind the factions. The current faction choices make no sense anymore.
Lord Brit is gone and as far as they have indicated, ain't coming back. Queen Dawn is the new ruler of Britannia. True Brits were dedicated to Lord Brit. Who would a TB pledge to now? Dawn's philosopy is not the same as Lord Brit.
The Shadowlords (the entities, not the faction) were destroyed. Who are SL pledged to now with their namesake destroyed?
Minax: Seems she ran away. MiN has no leader. Would they want cowardly Minax back?
Council of Mages. Weren't they all assassinated? Maybe the leaderless faction would pledge to Queen Dawn, since fictionally they thought Britannia needed a stronger, less racist leader than Lord Brit, and there is every indication Dawn is what they were wishing for. Who knows.
I'd actually prefer they just cut it back down to Chaos vs. Order, to be honest.
*edit* not THE Chaos vs. Order, but a hybrid of Factions and Chaos vs. Order. Chaos would be one faction, Order would be the other.
And no, I wouldn't want it to be on any facet except Felucca for the simple fact that it would be disruptive to non-faction players trying to hold an event (auction, dungeon crawl, RP community activities, EM Events, etc..).
All i can say is, that was UO and what should always be UO!
If you dont like it you dont have to join! Many of us, as you can read, would rather have non consentual pvp throughout!
I could use a normal degrading comment that gets thrown around alot but...i wont, you need to think about what factions was implemented for...PVP, That is its only and sole function.
There should be no need to pvm, no need to craft, no need to stealth (what a joke) it should be primarily about pvp...THAT IS ALL
This is factions not farming!
To give rewards for farming in factions is ridiculous!
Factions is PvP!