In Defense of Lady Amandine

*digs through reports till she find what she's after*

Nothing better than a direct quote from Adamu to (hopefully) answer your question.

If memory serves young one, there was at least one person who the Ouroboros should have rightfully went to but they did not receive it. Am I correct on that? I ask not for my own knowledge, but so others would be crystal clear on the matter seeing as how both of you establishment reporters accused me of spreading falsehoods and have slandered my good name and outstanding reputation.....

If you either of you will, please inform us whom that was.

Yes that is what the book said, and what the "findings" showed that evening. If I may interject a what if scenario. Suppose for a minute that Exodus had a brain. I know it is difficult on occasion to imagine our enemies as being smart. People generally want to project stupidity onto their enemies so they themselves will feel superior. But just for the sake of argument let us say Exodus is an above average intelligence. Considering some of the creations Exodus has made from scratch I believe that is very plausible. Now, let's say he wants to build dissension, fear and shake the trust at the foundation of those that oppose him. All leaders in a war would attempt to do that very thing. But at the same time he would not want them to know his full plan, or know how far along in that plan he is. Would such a leader not drop the type of misleading information you provide above? That being said, they could very well have gotten the dopplegangers to the final stage months ago.

*shakes his head and looks down*

Should Exodus be victorious, you very may well have to, or lose your life. That would be rather unpleasant for you. Perhaps you should rethink that decision on some level.

Alright, I'll humour you. It was Jimmy Nardello who never received his ring. As I'm sure I've previously mentioned, he was supposed to receive a ring after his father's death, but the Lady Serian gave it to her son Mikhael instead.

I'll get back to you on that one.

You know, it seems to me you're trying to do that exact same thing.

Unpleasant or not, I would rather lose my life.

Oh Faeryl, that would be most unfortunate *grins*

Oh yes, I'm sure you really think so. *rolls her eyes*

Correct. I think being passed over on something as important as the Ouroboros would make someone who rightfully should have it also suffer from severe stress as well. I could see where that could also make someone very depressed, and have it effect their entire life and decision making ability. That single act could have been the starting point for Jimmy's life of crime. It also explains in my mind the motive behind the murders. Much like Exodus he was simply trying to get what was rightfully his.

If the stress and strain are being used to "justify" Lady Amandines murder of Reddish should they not have also justified Jimmy's? Yet he was simply hunted down like a mangy mutt. Never given the opportunity to be found not guilty due to extenuating circumstances. It seems The Crux Ansata has a large double standard. If you are with them, explanations matter.... If you are not with them, then the sword rules.

*gets condescending look and shakes his head*

Where is the fairness and Justice in that?

Britannia doesn't rightfully belong to Exodus. It never has... And it never will.

Let me say it again. Even if we were there to arrest Jimmy, he would not have come quietly. He was going to fight us one way or another.

I have to disagree. I would tend to think his Mother saw something in the boy at an early age the made her think or know Jimmy was not worthy of such an honor. Our parents know us best as we grow from childhood to adult. The boy was probably bad at birth and his Mother noticed he would be a monster early on.

Another quote, this time to argue that thought:

Jimmy was actually her step-son. When Lady Serian's husband died, his ring was, by blood, supposed to go to Jimmy. Her ring was to go to Mikhael when she passed.

*facepalms and groans*

Oy Vey.... I can almost imagine the crap fest Buck will try to make out of that.

Hopefully in hiding so Exodus don't lop off his head. Hopefully Professor Yusef and Teresa are doing the same. As for Salah I hope they catch him but he barely escapes them with a decent cut on his neck. Maybe the blood would cover up some of those bright flamboyant colors he wears.

I wouldn't be at all surprised.

Not here apparently.

I don't know if this answers the question, but he showed up during the evacuation of Ver Lor Reg: The Awakening – Act IV Part 2 | Mythic Entertainment | Ultima Online
He was the leader of those knights. Sherry divulged some information to him, but only after he arrived on the scene of his own accord. Together though, they would represent one of the largest brain trusts on the Crown's side of the battle. Is it possible Sherry could have been witness to any of the events we've experienced?

Also, Sherry is featured in the first fiction of the Awakening The Awakening | Mythic Entertainment | Ultima Online. After re-reading that fiction, and hearing the story that Sherry heard, it's evident to me now that Sherry sought Dupre out and involved him in the current crisis. One more coincidence: Sherry was in route to Yew when this all started, and this is where Amandine is being held now. But, as is evident, this little gal gets around.

In regards to the case for Lady Amandine, would this information help her case? It's a better motive for Jimmy rather than boilerplate talk of revolution and anarchy. But how many rings were later found by Crux Knights? As I remember, and correct me if I'm wrong here, there was at least one, and yet Jimmy claims he wanted to re-distribute them. Why didn't he take all the extra rings?

I'm not sure if it could help her, but it does help to explain why Lord Simeon was murdered to begin with. As for how many rings were found, there was one at every crime scene, so four in total. Though it is a bit odd that Jimmy stated he wanted to choose who they'd go to, but then left them with the bodies...

The Simeon bit for sure.

I've been reading your report NEWS - Murders and Mysteries | Stratics Forums and I've got a few questions:

Could this be why we found them? Or is it more of a don't look at the man behind the curtain moment?

As the meaning of Ouroboros is cyclical, in the constant state of returning the beginning, of recreating itself, and the fact that Adamu mentions it's descendants are people we'd know, could that the creation of the ring family be meant to trace a loyal blood lineage? Does Dupre wear one? Could this mean that a descendant being the only ring wearer alive (a la Jimmy) would have a direct shot at the throne?

If my above idea is correct, could this quote mean that even Adamu recognized that Jimmy could have been doing this for good?

eh... to much complaining in this thread... grr

I honestly don't know. The best we can really do is speculate as to why Adamu passed the rings out to begin with. As for whether or not Adamu recognized that Jimmy could have been doing it for good, I would think that it would probably be easier to ask him.

One thing's for sure though, Jimmy's dead now, so odds are that we'll never know for certain why he was truly committing those murders.

Even if Dupre wears one, he would be far from the only one left alive.

I doubt Tresha would talk to us if she knows anything, especially after we locked her up... Even though locking her up did technically save her life.

It seems that most of the Knights wanted to see him dead, but now that he is... On the chance that he didn't speak with anyone else about his intentions with the rings, that would mean that the answers we're looking for could have died with him.

We're discussing. You're complaining

I'm starting to get an Illuminati feel from the Ouroboros.

I'm wondering myself what that'd mean. I think we need to find out as much about the family as we can. If Dupre is a member of the Ouroboros, then his jailing Amandine could be seen as a "these affairs are greater than you" situation.

More conjecture:

But I remember seeing a EM Character with an Ouroboros (though I tend to dream these things, so I could be very wrong). Does anyone have a pic of Amandine? Or Yusef Ad-Din? Do either of them have a ring? If either of them do, that would confirm my thoughts that the Ouroboros plot has much to do with Amandine's jailing. If Amandine wears one, then her motives for killing Jimmy could be seen as being corrupt for her position. Justice, however, is still a virtue. That would explain why the sword was capable of killing Reddish, yet Dupre saw her as having fault. Even if Dupre doesn't wear one, he would have probably been made aware of Jimmy's plot by Sherry.

My guess is Tresha would want to talk to Jimmy before us. Is using spirit speak unheard of in to interact with EM Characters? Just an idea. But because they were close, it's possible Jimmy told Tresha everything. If Jimmy had told Tresha everything, and Amandine is in on the ring play, that would make her a key witness for the prosecution and a damning presence for Amandine. Dupre, being a ring bearer or not, would know this and want her to stay as far away from the court proceedings as possible.

This is true, I was just exploring the option that Nardello might have wanted to become the only one left. Again, if Amandine wears one, it'd help explain his death wish.

So many questions. Adamu mentioned in the report that he would tell the other ring bearers to keep the rings quiet, which doesn't help us. But this is fun, even if it is speculation

Tresha is Dupre's illegitimate daughter, and she is having Jimmy's child.

Well, Lord Simeon had one... Adamu has one, Danica has one though she doesn't wear it, and Bennu has one. I don't believe Yusef has one. At least, I've never seen him with one.

I've never heard of it being done, but then again, I guess anything's possible.

If he wanted to become the only one left, that still doesn't explain why he would leave the rings with the bodies where just anyone could pick them up.

You're right. Perhaps he didn't want to be the only one left after all. It just struck me that Jimmy was an anarchist. He wanted the distribution of power to be completely random. Anyone happening by the area, searching for the truth, could take it. He was denied the right, and instead of wanting in, he wanted to destroy the order. And part of me is lead to believe that if we, other members of the Crux, where to find them, it would disintegrate the Crux too, with a power struggle.

The fact that Amandine has one makes me believe Dupre has one as well. To keep Amandine safe, not from Jimmy, but from us, he had to lock her away. If the public were to find out that Amandine killed Jimmy to defend a secret ancient order that ties them to the throne, Jimmy would become a Martyr for all the would be revolutionaries in Sosaria that are sick and tired of being ignored and excluded by the nobility. The public, not Jimmy, would have torn the order apart. By charging her with a martial infraction, he's hoping to end the case before the public catches wind. And perhaps before the Ourboros family has time to complete their duty.

I was thinking something similar, although I'm not sure the love-child is Tresha. I was thinking that the pictures in the post below could be detailing Dupre's affair with Lady Serian, he lived most of his life in the town. This would mean Lady Serian had three lovers.

Either way. In the report it states that Adamu said Lady Serian was a widow that remarried a second noble. Nardello was the legitimate son of the second noble. We also found a Ouroboros at Lady Serian's murder scene. So, she was a ring-bearer and her first husband was not. Mikhael was this nobles son. She, for unknown reasons, did not give her ring away. Adamu also mentions that some people are "not" destined to do certain things. Perhaps vanity?

And here's a rundown of who has the rings:

So we've got 13 that we know of.

• Adamu - any children?
• Bennu - no children
• Lady Amandine - no children
• Mikhael (guard tower body) - child of first noble, no children
• Lady Serian (trinsic body) - still had ring
• Magincia Body (unknown) - unknown
• Minoc Body (Lord Simeon) - no children
• Cromwell - unknown
• Desryn - unknown
• Saul - unknown
• Raym - unknown
• Jerison - unknown
• And I'll guess Dupre has one. Maybe a child.

Edit: This is from what Amandine said about Lord Simeon

Perhaps more than being a Mentor, Amandine was under the guidance of someone orchestrating the Ouroboros.
Also, as Adamu told all others to keep the Ouroboros secret, it is likely Dupre would have been involved about Amandine not by Sherry but Adamu. Sherry would have told Dupre to come to Trammel.

keel, barok, and OverBird. I need your Crux Ansata character names, I have everyone elses that has (so far) participated in this thread.

A few notes:

This is all correct as it stands except for the notes above. So that is 12(13) out of 24.

Lord Dupre became 'involved' at the request of Sherry, although this hasn't been stated anywhere but the herald yet. (hint, READ the herald, its important! )

The information on the Sword Caliburn is correct, but incomplete here in this thread. Ill have to re-read the memoirs of cabrius. I do know that the sword was a 'gift' from 'THE king' to Cabrius when the 'experiment' to inhabit the Abyss began.

Keep in mind that the sword represents blind, unforgiving, cold justice and is weilded lately by Amandine and that Dupre is and considers himself to be a champion of the virtue of Honor.

A few clues/questions, to spur more information and discussion.

#1: Where did Adamu/Addie get his ring? Did he give it to himself? Is he the original owner or was it passed to him? Anyone remember?
#2: Who are the others on that list?
#3: In what ways can Justice and Honor clash?
#4: Sherry called the first meeting and was there hidden, she was going to speak... then things 'shifted'.
#5: Dupre called the second meeting.
#6: How far back does that list of people reach?
#7: Jimmy and Tresha were in love, you have not seen the last of her.
#8: Tresha wanted Anarchy in Britannia, how could Jimmy help his love achieve her goal?
#9: Dupre and Amandine are not Dopplegangers.
#10: Adamu's original plan for the rings involved them being handed down with a certain 'rule'. But he of all people knew that random chance would steer their course as well. Family lines end, even precious heirlooms can be lost and then found by others. Selfish children can sell/gamble their inheritance, etc.

Continue, you have no idea how much I am enjoying this thread.

With how much distrust is building within the Knights, I wouldn't doubt that a power struggle and potential betrayal could occur if given enough of a reason...

Maybe it's just me, but I'm kind of finding the idea of a (not-so-) secret organization pretty hard to believe. I'm thinking we should ask Danica and see what she knows about the rings though. She might have some information that could help shed light on whatever's going on.

Vanity, power, authority. Perhaps none of the above. It's hard to know.

Was corrected while writing. The problem is, some families, such as the Cromwell family, have passed into history. So while we know that they HAD rings, we don't know where they've ended up.

First off, thank you for taking pity on us and giving us something to work with! lol

In the middle of a couple Mel runs, so I'll look your post over more thoroughly after I'm done

and I'd like to know who those three are too. I feel I should know, but I don't. lol

Sent to yemail

That was all the info I could find. I actually found a PDF version of the Memoirs of Sir Cabirus... It didn't really have anything important relating to the sword that wasn't already mentioned that I could see.

1. Ah, nope. If you mentioned it before, that's one thing I can't recall.
2. I wouldn't even know where to begin?
3. Honour is one's personal integrity, or an allegiance to moral principles. Justice is righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness. It is also the principle that punishment should be proportionate to the offense. This is where my mind draws a blank. I'll think about it tomorrow...
4. Oops... Things shifted... Was that my fault?
5. Was the logical answer.
6. Possibly pretty far considering Adamu's power.
7. I still say despite our saving her life, she wouldn't want to talk to us.
8. He could (and did) help by creating dissonance and distrust not only in the peasantry towards the ruling military power, but also within said same military power. Us.
9. There goes Anora's theory. heh.
10. That certain 'rule' being that they be given to the first born child?

ok...... i am BACK from vacation... and... it seems you guys are argueing about Danica's trial... so on and so forth...
As second in command in the Exodus Army... and a well Knight in the Crux Ansata Malitia.... lets settle this..... Danica... aka.... Amandine, the one who should be set free for all crimes she has committed because we all "love" her and all the wrong mistakes she has made doesnt matter... blah blah blah..... Here is my opinion.... she... without pitty or remorse... dragged a body through the streets of Britannia... and yet plays the "victim act".... I for one say "LOCK HER UP!"

She is to dangerous to be left alive.... waaayyyy to dangerous.... she was a great leader in her time.... but as all things... death must come to us all at a certain point in our lives. She was to stubborn to listen to Adamu... to take a break.... to calm down. She has worked herself to the end.... and death is the only thing that can stop this monster. Are you all BLIND?! LOOK! I see a future with out rest, sleep, and uncertanty. I see a future where we cant trust one another, even family... because we are scared of what may come if we let our guard down. You guys worship Danica as if she is a goddess.... but i only see a poor soul worked to her last limit and is taking her anger out on people that shouldnt die.

I for one.... say we end this... no trial... no jury... nothing... i say we get this over with and... lets say.... let Promathia have some fun... if you catch what im throwing.

Time for a new Order in life... one with stability... one with hope... one with a chance for our children and our childrens children to grow up in peace, not this world we call home.

Alex, have you actually read what we're discussing, or did you just skim over it and jump to a conclusion? I don't recall anyone here saying she should be set free just because we love her. Nor has anyone said the mistakes she made don't matter.

I don't believe what she did to Reddish was moral, nor do I believe it was justified. However, I do believe the circumstances must be considered before making any decision.

I don't see how she's playing the "victim act" as you put it, as she's taken responsibility for her actions and is willing to admit it.

Yes, she may have been stubborn and yes, she may have taken her anger out on those who didn't deserve it, but haven't we all at some point in our lives? We know Danica isn't perfect, and we know that none of us will ever be perfect, no matter how hard we try to tell ourselves that we are. We're only human Alex, not cold, heartless, emotionless machines. Sometimes our emotions can get the better of us and cloud our judgement, causing irrational decisions that we later regret. It only takes seconds for a situation we think we can handle to escalate beyond our control. We may not like the consequences of our choices, but that's how we learn and grow. Experience is just another name we give our mistakes...

You see a future of uncertainty, where we can't trust each other because we're scared of what may happen. I see it too, and it's quickly becoming reality. But not because of Danica. No. Because of Exodus. A demonic machine. Cold. Heartless. Exodus doesn't care what happens to any of us, to him we're just a means to an end. Once we've served our purpose in his plans, he'll toss us aside like trash on the streets.

I know exactly what you're getting at, and I'm surprised. You would just throw out not only the virtue of Justice, but Compassion and Honour as well? Have you no shame in making such a suggestion?

While even one person still stands and fights for what they believe in there will be hope, and we gain stability by standing together, not tearing each other down. If you want a future of peace, then stand with us and fight for it now. Because anything worth having is worth fighting for.

All the more reason to join the side of Exodus...... with metal and gears as our body, we will KNOW what exactly to do. Not a guess on what to do and hope to get it right but most likely screw it all up just like some people *coughs*

hmm..... well he surely wont toss me on the streets or kill, harm, or even betray Promathia and I, but he will surely find some purpose for all of you that dont join the winning side and become Minions of Exodus.

First: thanks for setting this up, and for that great list of hints.

My main Crux event character is Casandra. I'm relatively new to RPing and I can only remember a few role calls, though I've been to a bunch of events on various characters since coming back to UO. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I technically qualify to call myself a Crux Knight. Hope I'm not meddling in other folks affairs.

Time to go look at that new fiction again.

I think this was at least the one main rule, Adamu says it twice: "the first born child. Always the first." This would mean that Danica's sister wouldn't hold a ring. But the others are possible.

We know from the report he handed them out when he donned the white cowl. Since he came into owning 25 rings (24 + his ring), my guess is he didn't inherit them. He was either given them, or created them. I just read this UO Stratics - Atlantic News to try and catch up (Second article, about the crowning/Adamu phase. Need to read more, anyone got links?) I was thinking that this happened shortly after he grew up, but this post feels like the end of an event arc. But: The key members of that arc probably have rings too.
I've looked into the fiction and I can only find stuff on Jordan Cromwell, nothing in the Herald to center me in the timeline though.

I'll add what I've got the think-tank. As Dupre is the champion of Honor, it seems that Jaana is the champion of Justice. This is from UOGuide:

The parallels to Amandine are there. Except it would seem Amandine didn't go the route of trying and then killing Nardello. She just killed him, jumping over the rest of the process. I have to think more on this.

In the much longer The Tale of Dupre and the Gargoyles - The Codex of Editable Wisdom, a Wikia wiki for Ultima and Ultima Online it's told of how Dupre trained his foes in the ways of combat to save his own skin, but in doing so was able to convince the Gargoyles he was fighting to join him in exchanging cultural ideas and pursuing a sense of Unity.

Some more notes of interest:
Trinsic is the town of Honor, Yew is the town of Justice. Dupre from Tinsic, Amandine from Yew.
Honor is from Truth and Love, Justice is from Truth and Courage.

More on Dupre, from the moment of his death: (from the Codex of Ultima Wisdom)

He was then resurrected. Could Dupre have been one of the original nobles Serian Married? My guess is no, since Bennu says it doesnt matter if he's got a ring, but I still think itd be cool

Agreed, but I think this goes with #1 and #2.

Agreed. And the Ourboros family, choosing not to redistribute their power, but let the rings fall where they may in a chaotic fashion. And was he behind the bombing of Blackthorn's Castle? That'd be all three modes of society: the good (crux), and the symbolic, and the bad.
By removing the pillars of society everything erupts into disorder. He capitalized on the peasants fears and helped drive them to riot. And most of all, he gave his life for the cause. It wracks the heart if you align with Nardello.

Some more thoughts:

The first note proves TT was the real head honcho behind this affair. She also moved the meetings to be closer to the Crux in Jhelom.
The third note, that Nardello has gone rogue, means that he diverged from the plans to bomb the city, which they talk about in the second image. (which, if I'm understanding this, could mean the ancient Yew at blighted grove. Everything about this plant is poisonous, explaining how Nardello seemed to have the ability to throw poison explosions. And fire could poison the air.) Where was that one taken again?
The note found in Trisha's Cell read "Compassion can cure more sins than condemnation." Did Dupre write this, or did Nardello? Same for the Frame of the Man. Dupre could have released Trisha the night we killed Nardello, I suppose she could have had time to talk to Jimmy before we arrived if Dupre had done it early enough.

But this got me:

This leads me to believe that she meant to intervene in the proceedings, explaining or divulging information about Nardello's plans, before Amandine ran off in anger and ran right up to a known criminal and killed him. It would seem then that Sherry, and Lady Amadine, were well aware of Nardello's group's plans well ahead of their happenings. But Nardello went off course.
So follow me, it's late this is probably crackpot. Tresha moved her operations to Jhelom. Jhelom probably had one of the highest arrest rates, and it was home to the Crux. It was a great place to hide from: in plain view. Britain was completely uncontrollable, but highly raided. They plan to sneak off one night and raid/cover Britain and the Crux show up, right on time. Tresha tells Jimmy to attack us. Jimmy escapes and Tresha gets caught. Jimmy kills members of the Ouroboros to embroil Amandine. Jimmy offers himself up because he was a coward and left his girl to be taken by the militia.
Goodnight guys

Reddish was a small time hustler and smuggler. He had 'contacts' but was pretty small time. One of three brothers you guys talked to to find Jimmy the first time. He was the middle child.

Youll have to talk to Dupre about him releasing Tresha.

Some Links you might find interesting, (I did a lot of research on this plot line, which is one of the reasons things have been 'slow' lately.) This will be one of those plots that will be rich in history and depth if you want to pay attention, or just glaze over and rush through it and still have fun. It will be upto the player individually to decide what they want.

An older post, but rich with information:
The Atlantic History Thread | Stratics Forums

A 'wiki' of Atlantic history, how can you beat that?
Atlantic Roleplay Wiki

This is short but it started a lot of leads.
UO Stratics - Biographies - History - Biographies

You might also find some player names in some of that info you could talk to for more information.

Last hint for now, if you do go searching. Ctrl-Shift could be your friend.

This post by me doesn't have anything to do with this RP "AT THE MOMENT", anyhow, i just want to say thank you EM Bennu for being a great EM for Atlantic. I honestly believe without the EM program, this game will die within a matter of days, thats my opinion, many may disagree. You and Tiberies have done an awesome job with your EM Events and such, cant wat for more!

Well, I just started my search and already turned up an Ouroboros in Claudia Raym's cave.

Sneaky. After looking again I DID find an Ouroboros and a book "Ouroboros: A Study" at the Cromwell Estate.
I know of a Finth Desryn... The Captain of the Trinsic Guard, but I haven't found any other clues about him...
Only Saul I can think of is Martoo, I believe he was a follower of the Armageddon?
There's also Verity Jerison, a Lycaeum scholar.

Another Ouroboros in the Wisp Dungeon, in an area dedicated to the FoA.

Hah. I've been doing almost nothing except reading for the last 5 hours

Did a couple hours ago. I have a copy of it myself. I've found the ring at the Cromwell Estate, the one in Claudia's Cave, and one in the Wisp Dungeon. I seem to have hit a wall though. Not sure where to look now.

Thats it, for now in game wise. You guys are a bit faster than I am it seems haha.

I have some Dupre stuff to work on, and seems like you guys want to get Adamu in game. Ill have to work on it.