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Discussion in 'UO Siege Perilous' started by Kat, Aug 9, 2010.
Nonsense. I call shenagins...
All you bastards just say that you're good with my list and lets get this **** going! ^^
Don't get me wrong, I agree with the items on your list. Unfortunately, the Dev's have already said several of those are not going to happen.
I just think the removal of factions, guardzones, and "safety zones" is easier for the Dev's to code and more inline with the spirit of what Siege was intended to be. Easier means quicker and I think we all agree Siege needs something asap.
*smiles* I don't think so Black. First, you folks agree this is not a PvP shard. Then we talk.
Well, time for bed.
Thanks to those of you representing Siege to the Devs. Hopefully you can muddle thru all the emotions and opinions and find something that is in the best interest of Siege.
I don't envy you that job.
I disproved everything you said sir.
Non-private houses is what you said, and non-private houses are still safe. Set access on a teleporter to FRIENDS and you're safe. Without safety in a house, why would a house even exist? Where would you put your stuff if there's a guy standing next to your chest full of regs ready to kill you?
I don't see any sense to be made there, so keep drilling it!
A non-consensual fight doesn't mean one person has to be in factions and the other doesn't. If I ambush a guy at a spawn and he's in a faction, it's still non-consensual. That's going by the definition of consent.
The quote "I used to kill you when you were in VmP all the time" is simply not true. Not that it is even relevant. You are an unskilled PvPer, which you'll admit, and faction artifacts decrease the gap between the rich and the poor in PvP - gearwise, which benefits you more so than players like kage, forsaken, etc...
Your proposed changes will logically have the opposite effect that you're aiming for.
Notice how I got angry? It's because you're not making sense.
Now you're going to post, HOW DON'T I MAKE SENSE?
Then I'll get angry again.
I'm done with this thread, I feel like I've won.
Well, who is "you folks?" I know this ain't a pvp shard, but pvp does play a large part.
Oh come on, use some logic here. When I say houses aren't safe, I mean exactly that. Teleporters obviously wouldn't restrict access but let anyone in. I felt that was pretty obvious without stating it.
The definition would be of consent, not consense. And he is consenting by joining factions. Thats why you get that nice warning when you use the faction stone. Someone not in factions would be a non-consensual person in a fight, ie, they are not freely attackable (its a criminal action).
You chose to remember our days of fighting however you wish, that was not really the point. The point was I was once as good as you. The game changed, I failed to change with it. The point was illustrating that the items have changed the game. You claimed that you always ran with the best items, yet I used to be able to kill you. So, logically, the items got better and widened the gap. Granted, you probably also got better.
As I said in my reply to Kage, the best pvp'ers will still be the best pvp'ers even if we all wore GM armor. Lowering silver, removing arties, etc is not going to change that. My proposed change has nothing to do with making the best better or trying to balance the scales in pvp. It has to do with making Siege more like it should be and increasing the amount of pvp on the shard.
More targets = More fun = More players. The biggest complaint is there is no one to fight. This way everyone is a target. Murderers go back to being red, pk's actually roam the shard again looking for victims instead of waiting for an opposing faction to log in and fight in Luna or at the Yew Moongate.
I noticed that shortly after I said it. Consent*
But yeah, I'm done with you. You're completely missing the points I'm making because you choose to.
Good night buddy!
And you talk about a pk having to work for their kill a little bit. Why are you acting like the victim is so damn helpless that it's an easy kill if they don't have easy get away mode enabled? I thought PvP itself was working for that kill. Oh, what? Without the ability to abuse hiding/detect those that get PK'd will just sit there while a PK kills them? Get real.
This is the exact crap I have a problem with. Comments like these that make it seem like there is no issue with the situation when there is. Have you ever tried to counteract stealthers with those methods?
I've broken down many times how that 180-220 point commitment is overpowered and abused.
Say I run detect/tracking (another 200 point commitment!) and when I detect a stealther... they instantly re-hide AND stealth away... while I'm sitting there with my **** in my hand waiting for the god damn detect timer to reset so I can detect them again and watch them re-hide yet again! Great counter move.
Stealthers RUN around hidden. Not walk. I have to stop to cast a spell like poison strike while they are RUNNING away from me. Not only that, but to reveal them.. I have to cast it on myself! AND if I reveal them with it... they re-hide instantly AND stealth away. Ok so... I hit them with a conflag pot, they re-hide instantly AND stealth away. I hit them with anything... THEY RE-HIDE INSTANTLY AND STEALTH AWAY.
That 180-220 point commitment allows players to use both skills without waiting at all between them. It allows them to BREAK the aggro rules and disengage a fight with smoke bombs even after the developers put in **** like no recall, no gate jumping, no running into a private house, no bene acts, AND NOT BE ABLE TO USE THE SKILL HIDING because you are flagged an aggressor... yet for 50 points in ninjitsu and 1 smoke bomb... you can!
I tell you what. You don't like passive detect?
Agree to remove the timer for detect hidden completely AND include a 100% chance to detect ANY stealther within the 8 tile detect hidden AoE (currently activated by using the skill on yourself... and currently useless because its success chance goes down the further out.)
On top of that... remove the ability to instantly start stealthing after a player hides. Make them wait the full 11 seconds to start stealthing again.
Do BOTH of those things and we can forget about passive detect. Everyone should be happy.
Remove the invisible force field around private housing. Make teleporters only have access level set to everyone. BUT allow houses to be locked down via doors (shut doors with proper access level = safe house) This would give players the option to police their homes with the detect hidden skill and the remove thyself/I ban thee commands.
Players should have the ability to lock down their homes and make them safe, however they should risk break ins if they are careless.
Siege had specific rules for housing before customizable housing. Reds opening a door wiped the ban list. Reds could not ban other players from a home. Players flagged aggressor could not remove/ban players from their home. On and on and on which made it fair.
There is no reason to punish crafters or non-PvPers who want to be safe in their home... just like there is no reason to have this invisible force-field crap preventing other players from entering it if you leave the door wide open.
THANK YOU. Remember that the next time you make a claim about something like detect hidden and how it affects pvp.
There is a reason the ONLY successful counter templates to stealthers are Ru and Haha which are both STEALTHERS. Stealthers countering stealthers... like... really!?!?!
MY personal interest is bringing more people to/back to this shard. And I do not accept what you say about these ridiculous faction arties.
But that aside, the big complaint seems to be about stealthers and tamers ruining PvP. Getting the Devs to fix these things may or may not happen. It is not that easy to find a solution that the Devs will implement, either because they don't have the time, they don't think it is a good idea, or the general Siege population does not want it - e.g. passive detect which would nerf thieves, etc.
But if you were non-factions with permanent guild wars, then any guilds that start breaking the shard-wide accepted conventions - stealth tamers, bushido carpenters, whatever - could be taken out the loop. It would be a way of trying to regulate things yourselves. It probably would never work, because PvPers just cannot work together. They have been bitching at each other about one thing or another for as long as I have been here. But it is something you could try.
*smiles* I don't think so Kelmo, we're not playing semantics here... grow up. We have a list of the issues that need to be addressed. Work with the other side to get what we all want or accept that we all will simply ask the devs to address the issues we've highlighted in their own way... because if they don't address them, we will sit here and watch this place burn to the ****ing ground.
Damn I hate to agree with you but I do agree. Maybe allow tracking to work when standing on your doorstep.
I too would like to see that rule back.
Agree 100% but it will make us lose a secure level. I really wish they would remove the limit to co-owners
The general population does want something done about stealthers.
If passive detect is not the answer then remove the ability to stealth right after hiding AND fix detect hidden so it's actually viable at detecting those that are hidden.
There are many ways to address this problem. Bottom line: stealthers need to be addressed.
Passive reveal should factor in snooping or something like that. Easy solution. If you don't wanna get revealed you are a thief or are willing to add another 100 skill points.
I'm not arguing against doing something about stealth. I'm saying that finding a workable solution - one that the Devs will implement and the majority will support - is not easy.
As Mr Connelly pointed out, much of this discussion may be moot in the face of what is said in the next Producer's Letter, which will hopefully appear by the end of tomorrow. But some of the things being raised here are beyond what is needed. I just don't believe they are going to make a scrap of difference to the population and in some cases will frighten more people off.
I think we need to focus on as few changes as possible, and make them as simple as possible. The more the Siege ruleset diverges from normal shards, the more of an upkeep issue it becomes and the more chance there is for problems with future publishes. We should stick to a few core issues that we are likely to reach some consensus on, even one or two that have already been commented on by the Devs.
Here are the priority ones that I see, in no particular order:
1) Enable Young players to see shard on the Siege list. They would not be allowed to log in here and would instead get a link to the Siege page on the EA site.
2) Do something about stealth. Not sure what at this point.
3) Do something about tamers in PvP. Equally unsure about this. Removing bonding would be a disaster. Would love to see the removal of greater dragons, but people will not support that. Having animal form take a control slot seems like a good idea, although I am not sure that alone will solve the problem.
4) Remove the extra mods from faction artifacts. The Devs brought the arties in to give people a reason to join factions. The extra mods were presumably because production shard players already roam around in full arty suits. People don't do that on Siege, so I do not see the justification for the extra mods. Removing these mods would then justify reducing the silver costs.
5) Enable Advanced Character Tokens.
6) Remove the blessing from the event spell books.
7) Possibly altering the drop rates of imbuing ingredients and/or allowing cursed arty drops again. This needs looking at very carefully and would be conditional on point (4) above coming in to effect.
Following any changes, I then think it is essential that the Devs give the shard some major publicity. Something on the Herald announcing the changes, possibly announcing the Advanced tokens as a "trial" which may be extended. Couple all this with a fortnight of player events like we talked about before. Just as long as the Devs are seen to be recommending the shard to the general population.
We also need something to help players who can't place a house, that be a small refreshed second house or a remove of co-owner limit on all shards. Remove of co-owner limit make it easier to let someone have a locked box in your house.
More char slots, even when it do mean they get 6-7 chars could also help more to stay.
I like this, an easy fix that will work and if make a button, they can hit to cancel their young player status, it would work even better.
Agree, not sure what fix is the best
I would like bonding gone and replaced of an option to Siege bless your pet to make it bond right away. Sadly that may make it harder to code future patches.
Remove bonding and make it possible to sell pets on a vendor could be a way, this way, it would be easier to get a new pet.
I also like forms to take a slot
Sounds somewhat ok, but I would like to see the owner tag gone and be able to unraw them.
It was nice the short time we had it, so I believe it would be good for Siege.
Should had been done long ago
Add 2x Imbuing resourcedrop at all facets, make better chance for relic frop from unraw together with adding 2 x resource/Fame on the Felucca facet and dropping 3x vendor price. small gems are far to expensive when you want to make a 5 x 70 resist suit.
Fact...first week of factions silver prices where same as prodo
Fact...one week later they where 5x prodo
Fact...90% of the people on Siege asked for it to be put back
Fact...the devs did jack shiet
Fact, they have no excuse about coding to hide behind
Fact, if they cant do this simple thing do you really think they are even going to read the walls of text being dumped all over this thread...
The real fact is that only BFF and TNT ( new guild too! sorry Nydal) tried to do the right thing...instead of swimming against the tide, we rode the wave that EA sent at us.
Freja/Kelmo and the long list of others who refuse to move forward are the real problem here! Hello its 2010 #*#*#*#*#*#*not 1998
As it sits UO is fun as hell and offers more things to do then most have time for...why not
JUST PLAY THE GAME!!!
I agree 100%. For those of you unable to solve the stealth problem, the solution is easy. Do not nerf stealth but fix the skills that are already in the game to counteract it. I have no problem with PK'ers that detect me then kill me if I am hidden. I do have a problem with those who want to detect me without making sacrifices on their template to get those skills.
I've been saying this for a couple years now. Its not going to change. They want old UO back while playing in the new UO. It aint gonna happen. But they dont understand that...
Another thing. What do you all think is going to happen if they added passive detect? Its not world ending. How do you think theives operate on prodo? How do you think stealther operate? I play a stealther and I'm rarely passively detected. If you're an elf you have an even smaller chance of getting revealed.
I would bet on that most of you that are against the passive detect have never played the prodo shards with it.
Good post. I altered it a bit to be more reflective of the issues at hand.
In no particular order...
Thanks for putting time into this hoffs.
They are not numbered in any specific order, but I have bolded and underlined the changes that are absolutely essential in needing fixed. Those are the hottest topics and most intensely debated on this forum. They are the root of why so many of us are unhappy and need to be addressed.
Passive detect was suggested because it's the easiest to implement... and it works great.
Passive detect just requires players to use 120stealth to properly stealth.
In no other skill can you commit 75 skill points and get the FULL benefits/use out of the skill.
Thief templates are really tight and those on prodo use items (insurance) to make them work. If they fixed how hard items are to get here (even tho we risk more getting them) then I don't see the issue with thieves also having to risk more for more rewards. Naked thieves have been a bane to this games existence since the very beginning. They get free stuff for risking nothing.
But others have issue with it, so we should explore other options... and push for those options if we all can agree. If those other options cannot be done, people need to understand that this option is still on the table because something must be done.
I will drop my crusade on faction arties. *grumbles* I hope some changes will be made when/if factions ever gets the promised overhaul.
Yet you think passive detect is OK where people without the detect hidden skill get the advantage of the skill even though they have 0 points invested in detect hidden. Be consistent.
Improving detect hidden is the way to deal with stealthers. Not nerfing stealthers.
On this issue my consistency lies in what works well, regardless of how.
Passive detect is proven, tried and true on every other server... therefore I am willing to support it if nothing else can be agreed upon or done to correct the current situation.
I completely agree with this quoted statement. I want the detect hidden skill improved, but it needs to be taken one step further.
Stealthers should not be allowed to start stealthing instantly after hiding. That is using one skill, right after another without any delay. That is a BIG part of the problem.
Do you not get how small the chance is for a person without detect to detect someone with 75+ stealth? This IS improving detect hidden. Would you prefer we removed the timer to use the skill again?
Yes but id miss max resists, infinite mana and not being able to get hit by melee.
Ive been back a day now. Ran around with diablow. He couldnt hit us, we couldnt hit him. I dont think it is possible for 2 decent players in faction arties to kill each other.
Either lower the silver prices on faction gear or get rid of it. Leave everything the way it is. Who cares we all come back to this ****ty game for some reason or another.
You cant get full healing capabilities with 75 heal gm anat. With that said why should anyone have 100% sucess when stealthing with 75 stealth and gm hiding? You shouldnt this is why my #1 request for helping siege would be you guessed it.
#1 PASSIVE REVEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#2 pets use siege bless to bond
#3 Unbalance bows
#4 Lower silver cost
#5 Remove blessed event items.
#6 beef up spawn loot
Factions didnt kill siege. It was a replacement for order/chaos. A warring system for those wanting to pvp without taking kill counts...
Faction is made for Trammel shards, not for Siege. On Siege, you can go anywhere as red so just choose your color, red or blue.
You can still use guildwars too.
Faction do very little good for Siege but do alot damage, best would be to remove it all together.
3x prices would have to go
We may need a few towns without guards, Luna would be fine without guards.
Reds should be able to buy from NPC vendors.
Now being red would be a playstyle
No. I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Factions were made for Ultima Online players, including those on Siege.
Now let's get back to the discussion at hand.
I think we've clearly identified our issues that need to be addressed. Let's keep talking about how we all think they should be addressed.
Just add Stealing in to the equation of passive and remove stolen items form being blessed when stolen.
Might as well throw in two more pennies before this thing closes.
I originally came to this shard only when my home shard, Legends, was down for some reason or other. I had 7 chars of dif types built there and alot of time invested. I began to get bored on Legends for many reasons, no guild mates on, young kids complaining, no challenge, etc.. I decided to rez my Seige char, buy a new sword and hunt mongbats again so I could buy a horse. Soon thereafter I met the GM of my current guild and the rest is history. That was around the end of December '08. Now I have time invested here, on the veteran shard, hmmm.
Is this just going to be the same old story played again? If there is a problem in mechanics of the game then let's list them. Put them in order that we'd like to see them addressed and come to a consensus on a fix. When I see the amount of posts with *&^ and other *** it makes me wonder if you PVP'ers are even redeamable, lol?
Speaking only of my own experience in the game, mind you, I hate being attacked by a PK'er. Have actually been able to run a few times and kill the attacker twice. But it was a thrill, none the less. You all are limiting yourselves of the entirety of UO by focusing on PVP alone, so it is no wonder to me that you guys are frustrated.
Get a list together, prioritize, then vote on fixes. Set 70% as the answer to the fix. If you all had 70% of the lost players back my guess is the shard would be veteran again. Rothen
I'm afraid I can't agree with your additions, and don't see most of these as being hotly debated issues except by the PK types. Further, these changes would drive away many members of the non-PvP community (the majority of us) and potential recruits from other shards and would be very unlikely to be accepted by the Devs:
4) I am not going to force the issue on faction items, I am just resigned to this being a split shard. So okay, just lower the silver costs. But I would still like to see a convincing argument for why Siege needs the extra mods on the faction arties other than PvPers want their uber-items.
5) and 7) Should still be grouped into one topic. It requires very careful consideration about what, if anything, needs altering.
8) Altering housing would not be a good idea. It would drive new and existing players away. No matter what efforts are made to improve PvPing to encourage the return of a portion of Siege's population, the shard's future lies in getting new folk over here.
9) Instanced dungeons is fairly inconsequential and I cannot believe anyone has quit the game because of this. You spend time getting the keys, you deserve the chance to do it in peace. Back in the day when REV/OTF ruled this shard with an iron grip, you were raided at 80-90% of spawns and in Doom, were frequently PKd whilst resource gathering and could be killed in town if someone was determined enough. Peerless were the one boss-level thing you could do, and even then you were often attacked getting the keys or even coming out after the hunt. Further, this would require a lot of effort by the Devs to come up with a new mechanism to enable anyone to access the areas.
Just saying, people can't PvP without suits. UO is a suit game. Factions provide easier obtained suits. Siege doesn't have insurance, and faction prices are too jacked up, hence there being less PvP.
The game has changed too much - EA won't reverse it back to a pre-aos era. If you want that type of gameplay, there are places you can go.
The people who don't PvP are the ones arguing the most, which irritates me, because even if their proposed would changes go in, I highly doubt they would even PvP. Therefore, the people that actually do fight are the ones suffering.
How selfish is that?
I like how things work here. It bothers me that people can't suit up without days of farming between suits, and that people with hide/stealth/smokebombs are invincible.
Be careful were you're taking this hoffs. You're about to divide the community along the same lines that were drawn 10 years ago when Trammel was put into this game.
Each of the issues you do not agree with are not necessarily seen as hotly debated topics and that is why I did not underline the numbering for them. I wanted to separate the absolutely necessary issues from the rest of the issues this shard faces.
Go take a second look.
You also make a lot of unfounded assumptions and claims. Like new players not coming here because our housing rules are different. I say new players would come here JUST because our housing rules would be different. For *one* example... PvPers would no longer have to deal with the annoyance of house fighting the way it is done on prodoshards. That in and of itself would be extremely enticing to so many over there.
For the record and to be clear... those are indeed issues because they go against the design and purpose of this server. Let's tackle what you've said individually.
4) No argument needs to be made either way. We've all agreed and even agreed to disagree to move forward with it.
5) (5 and 7 are separate) They are hotly debated in many separate shapes and forms. From the item disparity between faction pvpers and non-factioners to many other conversations relating to the topic. Some have felt that those items should be as rare as they are, but that camp has unanimously laid their objects aside in favor of bettering this shard. That is why you have not seen it debated much since. The community has come to an agreement that siege risks more hunting monsters and therefore should be rewarded in kind.
7) Crafters and the worries on how they have been given the short end of the stick since AoS. How many years was it working on endless bods that the very first valorite runic hammer was obtained on Siege? Considering the value of the item (forgoing rarity) it is out of sync with what it should be. Players like Kelmo and Bruin and many others have pointed out how crafters are given the short end of the stick. It's an issue no one debates because we all pretty much agree that something needs to be done. I guarantee the uptick in monster loot (peerless ingredients, imbuing ingredients, etc.) will also boost crafters as well. So the issues are connected, but they are separate.
8) Housing. That is how housing worked before customizable housing was implemented. Players were given keys and it was up to them to lock their doors and keep them shut if they did not want other players in their homes. Siege was set up with special rules under THAT system because this shard is unique and represents something different than the other servers. Therefore it is absolutely reasonable to ask that-that ideology is maintained. You say this will prevent new players from coming to this server... well I say the opposite. Housing on Siege would be unique and players would not only be intrigued, but come to enjoy the new dynamics this style of housing rules would offer. This topic is most definitely hotly debated. There are so many threads about house fighting and hiding behind that invisible force field while manipulating to an advantage. Players would still be able to hold up in their homes in safety. They could do what they currently do and not worry about someone breaking in (unless they allow them to break in.) What players will no longer be able to do is manipulate that invisible forcefield to fight from. To abuse. To sit on the front steps in complete safety and dump spells/arrows/pets onto the enemy standing outside.
9) Instanced dungeons are an issue for the same reason blessed event spellbooks are. I warn you about what you say regarding this. This is a version of Trammel on Siege and it should go. Not only that, but it should be easy to implement. Simply removing the coding that prevents players from entering once they have the keys should do the trick... you're not reworking anything.
So I'm going to repeat to you what I started saying:
Be careful were you're taking this hoffs. You're about to divide the community along the same lines that were drawn 10 years ago when Trammel was put into this game. The very reason this server was created in the first place. These are the very ideals you accepted and made your own when you made this your permanent home.
This place is considered a sandbox while the rest of the servers have become themeparks. Losing that identity over time to all the themepark-tailored additions that have trickled into Siege is what's been slowly killing this shard since AoS. Maintaining what was once the greatest sandbox game of them all is the key to this servers success. I understand the apprehensions to it because so many have become accustom to the themepark atmosphere... but it just doesn't work here. It's not meant to.
Oh, don't be absurd Draxous, for goodness sake. I am happy with the status quo for the most part. What I desperately want to see is Advanced Character Tokens, Siege on the shard list for Young players and some publicity for Siege. Most other things are trying to fix stuff for you PvPers. You are the one pushing for change and an even greater slice of the pie for PKs.
However, the whole thing is fairly inconsequential at this point. The Producer's Update makes it clear that they are not going to change anything else on Siege in the near future.
I think it was pretty foolish to assume that many of these changes being wished for on this thread would ever happen anyway.
If it involves more than like deleting a line of code...anything more than an hours worth of time, it's most likely not gonna happen.
Thats why we just get removal of timers rather than Blackrock skill gain areas. Don't get me wrong, I love the new rot change, but it was clearly the easy (and less fun for the players) way to address the situation.
The four underlined issues are what I assume will be pushed for based on this discussion and others.
They are all very easy fixes. Silver prices? Took moments to increase by 5x and should only take moments to set back. Boosting monster loot? Just go and increase the current numeric values on the drop rates. Boosting bod rewards? Same thing. Hiding/Stealth... we've come up with what seems a relatively easy fix and at the very least there is always inserting passive detect coding which is already there on every other shard. Removing the bless property on blessed books? Easy again.
If those are not addressed this fall, that will have been the final nail in the coffin for pretty much everyone in this community. The developers will have sealed the deal with a pretty solid middle finger to the siege community.
People just need to stop bitching and enjoy/play the game. FYI the new T-Map system is awesome.... Have fun and play!
Take notice that most of the people lobbying to get **** changed don't play.
Siege is ****ing fun right now, log in!