Publish 69 - Partial notes

You guys obviously haven't considered the full affect of what this publish will do to PvP. No dexxer (barring a wither stack running dexxer) will be able to compete on any level with a mage. Why? Because every single time the mage gets a spell disrupted they instantly get to recast it WHILE RUNNING, meaning that it is to the mage's advantage to actually be disrupted. I play a mage 95% of the time I play UO, and I think this is absolutely the dumbest thing that has ever been conceived. Magery hasn't changed in the 7 years I've played UO, and now you're going to change the very essence of it? Honest to god I hope every single dev is fired before they completely destroy this game.

Just thinking while wither does a good amount of damage you usually want something that does two things in PvP, like thunder/wind, to start an attack. Sort of like spell plague does triggers, something extra to get the kill. But strangle, evil omen poison, wither could be pretty nasty with on-the-run withers. Wither is more of a closer spell to me though, spell plague is more of a set-up spell, but I guess you could look at plague as both a set-up and a closer -- which is probably why it's being nerfed, heh.

Which is exactly why this thread needs to get back on point. Sure, there are all kinds of things that could be tweaked, but we should be discussing the ones that are on the table (although a cure potion timer is a pretty big miss...). This casting on the run needs to be trashed and lumberjacking could use a little more of a boost. Once those get done I'll be happy with all the proposed changes. Are they perfect? No. Will they fix everything for pvp? No, but its still a worthwhile patch and a step in the right direction.

I am kind of considering what Jax said about casting on the run, but only to the degree that it may compound with the problems we have now in PvP.

While we may disagree on some things, it is to note that a good majority agree on the problems of now because of heavy handed nerfs by either poor judgment or out dated game mechanics.

I would put my energy on fixing the current state. Get feedback from players and ease into it slowly and see how things go.

Does anyone know if the devs are even taking what were posting into thought and perhaps considering some of the ideas, or are we all just posting here and hoping they read this thread?

Dev's don't take into account player opinions for pvp. They crunch numbers, and implement a certain formula.

You can't balance ideas without numbers. The devs have the numbers and the ideas; the players have only the ideas.

It's like a bar graph. When they nerfed Mysticism for example, the formula changed and produced different numbers. The bar grew smaller. Thus, to compensate, the bar for the total output of effects produced from ninjitsu had to grow smaller to match the smaller bar of Mysticism.

Another example.. as to why cure potions have never had a timer, because no number can be produced that would provide for a balanced over-all pvp and pve equation. "SetCurePotionDelay=6000" would throw entire bar graph out of whack. It would require changes to poisoning and magery. Then, as is eluded to in my first example, the total ouput of an unrelated skill like perhaps Bushido (Just one bar in the graph) would need to be adjusted as well.

It's this sort of number crunching that makes PvP in UO a rollercoaster ride of ever-changing bargraphs.

But mostly it has to do with not having separate rules for combat in Trammel and Felucca. EA has done everything in it's power to keep the Roleplayers (trammies - nothing wrong them) from quitting the game. And it is this reason that PvP has suffered so tremendously in this game.

EA-Mythic.. whoever runs this game now.. needs to call Richard Garriot at his Moon-rocket and ask for this game's real code back.. imo.

^^^^
jesus sounds pretty much dead on....and on that note, we need a cure pot timer.

We need a timer on cure pots and a timer on re-infectious strike. Anyways be careful what you wish for, when you ask a cure pot timer, this means any dexer can get easily re-poisoned, and if your cure is on cooldown your next bandage will heal zero hp 100% of the time.

If you played nox mage/dexer era you will know why they will never put a timer on cure pots. A noxxor was completely retarded and is ultra overpowered if you dont have a bag full of cures. Same for nox mages, all they were doing is DPing you OVER AND OVER and you will eventually die, because the chance of your bandage to get thru when you have no cure is 0%.

Also consider curing chance. Cleanse by Fire only has around 20% chance to cure LP... chances are you will stand there and recase Cleanse by Fire over and over and hope for a cure to get thru... and if you are pure dexer without 4/6 chiv, might as well just drop all you are carrying on the ground and give up, or just recall away, the noxxor will eventually kill you. It only cost 3/6 mana to spam lethal poison and they can lethal you 12 times with just 1 single DP potion... and good luck with the double potion weight. Still got my 80.1 poisoning on stone ready to go anytime.

Yeah... wouldn't that be F.U.N. *waves finger in the air*

Yea I know because I had a nox tank mage before. I can cast DP which is a fast spell and I can do infectious strike for lethal poison. Any warriors without 4/6 chiv is dead before the fight begins. I could literally LP him with my kryss or DP with spell, and I will kill him with nothing but poison and magic arrows, unless they have a ton of cures (casting DP is free). While they are waiting for their bandage to kick in they are getting ticked for dmg by poison while I just nuke him with any dmg spells. Bandage kicks in cures the poison heals zero dmg and I DP right after the bandage again. If he doesn't run he's dead.

Against 4/6 chiv dexer you go with lethal poison. You will see them sit there and try to cleanse by fire and not attacking me. Omen mana vamp or any nuke (he's gonna be busy curing) and LP ticks for a lot of dmg and is easily reapllied. Again the sec he runs out of cure pots he's gone. And dexers casting means he's not hitting me, I can summon deamon, ebolt, exp fs pain spike omen anything I want basically. If he runs no resist 1 vamp and his entire 4/6 defense is destoryed.

While I see a lot of dexers wants their poison cookie cutter back by putting a timer on cures it will ultimately benefit mages the most at the sametime destorying any dexers that doesn't have 4/6 and even with chiv without 4/6 any mage can easily disrupt your cleanse.

So by putting a timer on cures it will make all dexers that wants to survive poison spam to require 120 resist and has to have 4/6 chiv and that only gives you 20% chance to cure lethal poison anyways.

Mages has arch cure which is fast and can cure Lethal poison 90% of the time, necromages even has SS on top of that. Now come along myst mages cleansing wind is just adding more wound to the insult.

It is funny to hear dexers wants a cure pot timer that doesn't understand it will end up screwing them even harder. Any mage can just nuke and poison, as long as they get in a poison once every 4 second and you are out of cures or cure pot on cooldown you are ****ed hence I said just run away or give up and give the noxxer all your loots and save yourself some insurance money.

Oh and since infectious strike does not require tactics to use, it wouldn't be too hard to stick on to a mage template. Yet all dexers are required to have resist and chiv if they are to stand a chance against anything that can chain poison you. Well actually you can just run like a little girl and don't stop until the poison is cured (so you don't get nuked) and you can turn around and get instantly poisoned again and you can start running again, if that's the kind of pvp you want on your dexer feel free. It only mages more powerful and noxxor will be the only one benefiting from this at the cost of the rest of dexers death. Actually since you are a noxor you probably has bad karma so chances are you can't even cast clense by fire successfully, this mean you will be even more likely to get owned by chain poison than other dexers. Anyways its just funny that people asking for something that will ultimately screw themselves and they don't even know why.

We tried the holistic approach several years ago with Mr Tact and a very full dev team, and it wasn't pretty. This Dev team is tiny and has a punch list of 12 publishes and a booster plus live and moderated events during the year.

What odds do you give your approach?

Not saying you are wrong, you are right on many of your individual points as well as your general conclusion. But I just can't see where the manpower will come from.

Was just on TC for a lil bit and tried something. I magic arrow myself then start casting Spell Plague. No matter how many times I do this I NEVER interrupt myself on the SP? What gives?

Feedback: This is really bad.

That's something NOT new. You could not interrupt your casting mystic spells, not sure why. Others though CAN. Not sure if they changed that part.

Fernny!! You are still the studliest Greek in the game!! PVP! forever!!

Alrighty, just a heads up.

We did some testing over the weekend and confirmed the casting-on-the-run issue. It is a bug and will be fixed.

It is a separate issue from the "anti-overcast" thing I mentioned in my previous post. However, due to the feedback, this will be reverted.

These changes won't be on TC1 until some time after Thanksgiving.

Eh, it was more just playing on TC1 while at home.

Meaning the "anti-overcast" fix is not going to go live?

or the wither on the run?

As that is the "casting on the run" refer to this.

So to answer: No

You know, it's kind of funny. Even when you get a response from a dev, it's always ambiguous and unclear. Guess I'll just have to wait for the patch.

I don't see how it is unclear. He says it is a bug and will be fixed, says the anti-overcast will be reverted and that it wont on TC until sometime after Thanksgiving. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I think hes refering to dev comments on the casting issue being a "bug" but instead saying they will "fix it" they said it will be "reverted".

But yea the point is its being changed.

Have a great Thanksgiving. Check out Whole Foods or Trader Joes, get the devs some delicious pies .

The casting while running and no damage from over casting are actually 2 different issues.

How I read it is that

1) running cast has been verified as a bug and will be fixed.

2) The second issue regarding the bug where you don't do damge on the second spell if you cast 2 magic arrows in quick succession, they implemented the fix for this, allowing players to do damage on the second spell. But due to the feedback they received, they will revert this change.

So pretty much... Arrow/Bolt Spam shows us How OP a casting system like that is.. So they Implement it for Magic Arrow as intentional?

Isn't that Exactly the opposite of what we were asking for from a Balance perspective?

Hell I always thought that Magic Arrow damage *NOT* stacking was intentional and that Bolt/Arrow Spam was the thing needing changed..

I must be insane.

-Reread the Due to Feedback part, Damn right they did lol..-

I hope the Magic Arrow/Nether Bolt fix is still in effect.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Let's see if this helps.

Casting-on-the-run was the issue where players can spam earthquake/wither/etc while running and never needing to stop in place during the cast. This is a bug and will be fixed.

There was a fix where you casted two spells consecutively and on the second spell, you see the Words of Power and casting animations, but the spell did not activate. The fix allowed for the spell to activate properly. Due to feedback, this fix is NOT going live.

There was a fix where you can spam projectile spells such as fireball over and over again and every other fireball did not apply damage to the target. The fix allowed for the damage to be applied to the target properly. This fix will undergo further review but is currently NOT going live.

The magic arrow/nether bolt spam fix is still going live.

So now if you get disrupted and try to recast, you will not get the cursor or the spell to "activate"?

Also, if you allow for consecutive damage with fireball and magic arrow, wouldn't that make it so everyone will spam magic arrow as fast as possible and it will have a higher damage output than nether bolt because magic arrow does more? Take the spam out and leave it at that...

Thank you. Now I know exactly what to expect.

I find it shocking that this was a bug. This is what made mage PvP take so much skill and fun.

So wait lemme get this right... You guys are removing the magic arrow/netherbolt spam back to back and instead are making it so you can spam magic arrow/magic arrow back to back the same way without the second arrow canceling the first arrows damage when it goes off? Like right now you throw a magic arrow on someone and with its delay you throw a second one and wait then the only damage the person recieves is from the second arrow, not the first... Hopefully that makes since lol, is that what there doing? If thats what there doing then what the hell is netherbolt/arrow going to fix... People would just start using arrow/arrow in the same sequence lol.

So I logged onto TC just a bit ago to test LJ out. I was bashing gaman which have about 60-70 physical resist. I used a large battle axe +50 di, 120 anat, 120 tacts and 100 LJ.

It just reminded me that it is such a waste of skill points pvm and pvp wise. PvP, You get 90 tacts and can usually do 35 AIs. PvM your skills are better placed in bush and chiv for damage. A plain hit while investing in a combat skill, anat, tact and even lj is a bit much. Other templates can provide more damage with half that skill point investment.

If you want to give a LJ bonus, then make it worth the investment.

I did the test too.
100(cap) DI on suit 150(cap) str, 120(cap) tactics, 120(cap) anatomy, 100(cap) lumberjack. With the ornate axe (the biggest axe weapon in the entire UO)

I am doing a regular hit for 24 (100 hits average) on average to 70 resist...... Crushing blow hits for 34 to 35... Yes, that's it. AI hits just as hard.
Oh and when I take jumberjacking to zero (0)
I hit for an average of 22 (100 hits average)... and crushing blow for 33...

100 skill points for 2 real world damage on other players? I dont think so... and 200 hits are plenty to notice the "double DI bonus" which I failed to do so.

This is not worth it. For 100 skill points spent for NOTHING but to increase your axe damage (this also means you spend 100 points to LOSE your ability to chug pots when you are using your main weapons) should be a lot more than that. pre-Pub 16 LJer can hit for upward 40 dmg to players in full plate in one hit, and they hit this hard EVERY SINGLE TIME.

I agree with this.

100% agree and def agree on the other "bugs" not going in, thank god.

The LJ thing def needs a little more attention as many above have stated that the DI bonus from LJ is barely noticeable, and far from being worth the 100.0 Skill pts to invest in, maybe it should be a solid 120% Di bonus?

That would be removing the 5% proc chance and just making it add the full effect at all times?

3-6 extra damage per regular hit will be worth it imo, atleast for pvp.

Death Strike - should do a bit more damage imo, considering you need hiding/stealth/(120 ninjitsu And STILL DONT have 100% Success)
And the target needs to be tracked to get the full damage? i think this spell should remain unchanged Previous to Pub 69.

Yes, GM LJ bonus when it first came out (back in the days) gave 30% damage when using axe weapons. The difference between classic "LJ" bonus and today's "DI" bonus is that classic LJ takes the normal damage you dealt (say 30 damage a hit) and increase it by 30% which makes it a whooping 39 output damage. The 30 DI we have today gives you 30% more base weapon damage which is no different than "Damage Increase" on your items. 30% DI is even worse if you use a low base dmg axe weapon like hatchet... The 30% DI barely give you 1 damage extra after armor mitigation.

It either has to be at least 60 DI (over the current cap of course) at all times or it should be a low chance proc that should do at very least 40 damage, especially considering you cannot chug which directly means you will swing slower, die quicker, and very very vulnerable to any type of poison. Again 60DI is only 4 dmg from an ornate, I highly doubt that It's worth it.

Or you would have to give all axe weapons an innate balanced mod if you have GM Lumberjacking. Especially when archers can get this mod for free, I dont see anything wrong with it being OP especially it takes 100 skill points to get it (and the benefits will be higher evasion chance, able to chug pot with 2 handed weapons like archers)

All player damage output has been steadily increasing since classic (other than spell damages which has been shafted by AoS) then how come LJ Axer that used to be able to hit for 40+ but now they only gets to do 2 extra damage than any regular dexers without the 100 point skill investment and can freely chug anything they want.

I don't agree with the low % chance. We are talking about a skilled warrior. Swords, Tactics, Anatomy and LJ. He/She will know where to land a blow.

An Ornate Axe should do more than a scratch.

Anyone ever take this into consideration that maybe the reason they don't make LJ do upwards of 50 damage is so dexers wouldn't be considered "OP" by 3 hitting people? At the same time if they do boost the damage how about giving the players more freaking life then a cap of 150... They can't boost the damage by to much or LJ dexers will be the new OP class that 3 shots everyone... Just think about that for a second. I know i don twanna come across a damn toon hitting me for 50+ damage per hit for what cause hes got 1 damn skill to 100? Thats total bull**** to hit for that much, and i dont care who or what class you play to hit for 1/3 of there life in simply ONE swing.

I do play a mage class and don't ever play a dexer class. But what i'd like to see are more of the classic mage templates brought back instead of getting owned from all these fencer/archers disarming. Put a timer or something on the special abilities that way we're not losing 15 DCI from our wep every single time we re-equipt it. Think about it. An archer runs up, disarms you and you can't re arm for like 4-5 seconds. So during that time he can swap weps to his bow and AI the **** out of you until you can re arm, rince/repeat. Something needs to be done seriously. One step in the right direction would be to remove the damn 80 dex required to use parrying successfully. That is ridiculous.

Thus I mentioned the damage should be high but the proc rate can be low, so they can burst.

Also according to your logic, my disarm archer can disarm double shot with a yumi for "at least" 70 damage in 1 hit, so this must means I am OP.

Also HXbow can dish out 50 damage dismount shot easily, so all archers are OP.

Tracking death strike does 60 + weapon dmg, so all ninjas are OP.

Super Dragons are OP

Dreadmares are OP

Cu's are OP.

I will tell you what's wrong. Super fast one handed weapons like kyrss can AI for 35 damage, and a wooden sword nerve strike for 35+ in one hit (and you can easily double nerve coz of the para effect for 70+) and someone spending 100 more skill points than you do using a slow ass 2 handed axe weapon that's nearly impossible to hit swing cap with the HIGHEST base damage of all axe weapons and cannot chug 1 single potion does less than 30 dmg with a crushing blow... now that's something is really wrong there.

Oh just because spell plague hits total of 4 times for 80 damage I guess it's not OP (because the damage wasnt done in a hit). While I agree none myst/tamer mages are pathetic rightnow, I do think lumberjack axer is much worse only template that's worse than LJ dexer are those pure mage dueling template, which is pretty much stupid and worthless in real PvP.

WU pretty well summed it up. LJ does need to be juiced up. Perhaps a formula with a gradual increase of direct damage + base damage and no random effect.

Poisoning - My thoughts on balancing Poison is this.

It should be Skill vs Skill. Greater Cure pots should suffer a % Penalty unless the char has alchemy. So for example

G cure from a GM alchemist has 50% effectiveness from a GM poisoner.
Penalty -
Using char
Alchemy
0-20 - 40%
21-40 -30%
41-60 -20%
61-80 -10%
81-100 -0%

Note that the potency of the G cure is first based in. If the G cure was crafted by an alchemist of 90 skill vs a GM Poisoner, then the scale tips. Only having 40%. The pot cannot cure if the user has no alchemy. But EP could be used to give a 10% boost, or the user can use skill items.

Here are some other thoughts.

The 5 levels of poison should not be considered or judged on the ease of cure, but more as an effect, damage which shows the poisoners perfection in his/her skill.

To do this a few mechanic changes need to be done.
Lethal poison types need to be craftable.
Poisoners must be able to apply the poison.
The random bumping of poison level would have to go bye bye for weapons.

The result would be a scenario something like this

A poisoner applies lesser poison to his kryss. He does so because it has a better chance to disrupt a mage from casting.

Off the bat having GM poisoning, He has a good chance of effectiveness vs anyone with pots. Those running with 4/6 casting running 60 chiv will have a hard time curing. Those running 90 healing will have a 40% chance plus chances if they carry pots. A legendary mage on the other hand would have a better chance of curing, and could wipe it out without a problem with arch cure.

Maybe the percentages are off, but that is my idea on the way I would like to see it.

Put it this way, if your a dexer (pets excluded) if anyone can hit you for 1/3 of your life if your HP is 150 then something needs to be done, 3 shotting someone is completely ridiculous and either the cap on HP needs to be removed or something needs to be done. Now I didn't say mages hitting for that much would be to much because that's all based off the persons resists obviously and whether or not there cursed, corpsed, ect. So while all these dexers are all up for the damage boost for melee classes, then yeah your right I do think those classes will eventually become OP if our HP cap remains 150 because we're all gonna die way to quickly. Another good thing to start doing in this game is actually putting a stop to this damn "CHEAT ENGINE" and "SPEEDHACKING".

Nothing more annoying then to not be lagging and have someone just appear right infront of you and be able to get spells off on you while your running away from them in-game. What I mean is if your on the run and not lagging, and the person behind you is so fast (speedhacking) that they can stop and cast spells on you and still keep up right on your ass thats just ridiculous. Do something about it, and for the love of god if you can't get anything else then just get Warden (3rd party detection that WoW uses) or something similar to it, because the 3d detection thats supposedly has been implimented is not doing **** to these people in fel. Add some better detection in this Publish 69 as well.

Just wanted to post something before the sun rises today. For those concerned about LJ tweaks consider this.

Archer's get a ton of extra damage without the added skill investment.

Weapon damage + Hit Spell + Velocity (3-30 Phys) + 10% from quiver.

Note that Melee warriors do not get the last 2.

LJ's simply outdated that's obvious. Like they did for all the music skills, archery, adding FC/FCR to necromancy, and more recently the "much needed" fishing additions... it just needs to come up on the dial of things they need to redo and make more attractive. It'll happen sooner or later. Keep on pushing.

Maybe melee weapons need base damage toned up? (mainly two handed ones)

I mean how is it, that a Bow (hvy xbow) hits harder than a War Hammer, Hally, or any 2 handed weapon for that matter?

2 handed melee = not enough damage output , Cannot chug, and needs to be close.

2 handed ranged = chugging, highest base damage in game, easily obtainable 40-50 ssi, Two hitspells =/ & does not need to be close.

I think, bows base damage either needs to be lowered slightly, Or they need to remove ALL delayed hitspells on bows & Allow only one hitspell at a time for bows (unless its an artifact)

Maybe they should re-impliment the pre aos specs?
(2 handed melee weapons Only)

These were
2 handed swords - Concussion = Halved targets Max Int for 3-5 Seconds?
2 handed Maces - Crushing blow = 50% More damage
2 handed Fencing - para-blow = stun
2 handed ranged - NOTHING BECAUSE THEIR ALREADY OP!

I think it was 20-25% of your anatomy skill, was the chance of the spec going off?

No, all dexers with 2 handed weapon in their class has a base chance of 20% for the effect to go off after a successful hit, for every 10 points they have in Int, the chance for triggering an effect is increased by 1%, up to 10% cap.

So the chance of hitting with a "special move" is 20-30%.

Concussion Blow on a GM Lumberjacking Swordsman is like the ultimate mage killer. Mana has a cap of 100, and in one concussion you take out half of their mana (and after 5 second int comes back but NOT the mana), and now they only have enough mana for 4 gheals or 2 ebolts. Yea i know but we didnt use to have LMC bullcrap.

Chain paralyzing with a long spear was pretty crazy, especially the paralyze effect is unbreakable. (this means if you are lucky you can chain para people till they die period)

Mace Fighting was also decent especially against dexers, within 30 hits with a war hammer takes out a GM Heater Shield. And if the fight drag too long the macer will be the only one that's not "naked"

Archery didnt have specials. But considering you can get killed in full plate by some hidden archer with heaviesin 3 shots, I guess it was fine.

As you expected, mace to screw heavy armored opponent (warriors), Swords to kill mages mana/int (well GM lumberjack can kill a naked mage in just 2 swings) while fencing is more like "no counter lucky streak", on average they get additional swings after the first para goes off, then there's a chance it will perma paralyze someone to death, mage or dexers.

Mesanna,

Respectfully, why make this change? I have a character that has GM hiding with items to get him to 120. He also has GM stealth with items to get that to 120. He also has GM magery with items to get that to 115. Does this mean that I won't be able to re-hide, invis myself or use a smoke bomb if an elf passively reveals me for XX time if he has high detecting hidden? If that is so then with this change you are negating or greatly reducing the effectiveness of the 300 skill points that I have invested in these skills.