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Discussion in 'Archive of Previous Tests' started by Mesanna, Nov 12, 2010.
Do you really not see the advantage of reflecting a spell?
OK,In PvP,Thinking expectation value of damages of....Archer.
First:Of course,dexxer can not cast "Curse",moreover this spell is invalid Phys.so,All PvP players adjust Phys 70.
Second:Mages would cast Curse to be limited resists 60 without Phys.and We have to prepare Fire-resist75 for "Corpse Skin" ,This carrys a weak point of Poison-resist.
Therefore,from standpoint that expectation value of damages,Archer should equip "Quiver of Blight"(change damage attribution to poison50% cold50%).
This means have to give up to equip others.
thinking toK,We would reflect Only one spell.But,If we would cast Magicreflection,always have to fight with 60Phys.
Archer(dexxer) need not consider damage attribution,so could equip anything (I think anybody put on SSI-5% cloak)It is just like a good pigeon.
In conclusion,casting Magic Reflection.
-reflect Only one spell.
-let enemy freely,powerful.
I'm sorry I don't understand.
Did they re-adjust magic reflect since it was first released on test center? When I tested it you could reflect 3 lower-level spells before the pool ran out.
I sort of understand what he is trying to say. I'll attempt to translate the gist of it, ikaikaman can correct me for the parts that I translated incorrectly.
In PvP, we must always take into account the damage potential of archers.
Firstly: I do understand that dexxors normally do not have magery and thus do not cast the magery spell "Curse". (Curse being one of the spells that can be used to reduce an opponent's resists in PvP).
Moreover, Curse does not affect Physical resists, only the 4 elemental resists. So, in most situations PvP'rs will still be about to run around with 70 physical resists.
Secondly: However, curse is one of the spells that can reduce resistances, mages can cast Curse to reduce an opponent's resists to 60 (ie the 4 elemental resists except for physical resists). Another spell that reduces resists is "Corpse skin".
Corpse-skin reduces both fire and poison resists. People normally overcap fire resists to make a suit that's corspe-skin proof. That leaves the other weakness - poison (it's often neglected).
Therefore, all things considered, to maximize damage potential, it makes sense that archers equip the "Quiver of Blight", which changes damage attribution to poison 50%/cold50%. That way, archers will be well positioned to take advantage of the lowered poison resist of someone that has been corpse-skinned/cursed.
This precludes the use of other equipment that uses the quiver slot (such as capes).
If we cast Magic reflection, we would always have to fight with 60 Phys. The only benefit is that we would reflect only one spell.
The issue is that now, Archers (dexxer) need not consider damage attribution by equipping a specific quiver, and can equip anything (I think everyone would equip the SSI-5% cloak).
Harlequin: I don't get the good pigeon reference. But he may mean that it's a good combination.
In conclusion, casting Magic Reflection gives:
-reflect Only one spell.
-increase damage taken
-indirectly allows opponents to become more powerful without any consequences or using up an equipment slot
No doubt, High-Risk, Low(NO)-Return.
I don't think the pool was adjusted. But they added a -10 to the physical resists CAP. You you can only get to 60 physical resists now if you cast magic reflect.
I posted this in UHall, but there's a higher chance that the devs will read this thread, so I'll repost my thoughts here.
I'm actually fine with a simple resist penalty. It's the -10 reduction to the phys resist CAP I'm more concerned with.
Maximum reflection pool you can have is 100%. When you are hit with a spell, each spell level reduces it by 10%. ie Level 1 spells reduces it by 10%, level 2 by 20%, level 6 by 60%. But level 7 spells pierces it directly instead of reducing it by 70%.
That is to say, the reflection pool you get when you cast magic reflection at 120 magic resistance, 120 magery and 100 inscribe gets wiped by 1 single flamestrike. And if a spell brings down the reflection pool, it goes on to damage the player normally.
I repeat, this is at 120 resist, 120 magery and 100 inscribe.
The reflection pool you get is scaled by the your magic resists skill. With the 20 magic resist from JOAT and 120 margery/100 inscribe, you get a reflection pool of 27%.
Without the magic resist skill, the reflection pool is so low that even fireball will pierce it and damage the target.
The penalty of -10 to physical resists CAP is in no way proportional to the minor benefit that the reflection pool gives. If's it's just a penalty to current physical resists, I'm fine with it. But reducing the cap?
With the advantages that warriors have over mages in PvP, and the number of warriors, would players who use a mage, cast magic reflect?
And go around with 60 physical resists against the archers?
The benefit is only marginal. At it's most powerful level, the reflection pool can only reflect a single level 5 or level 6 spell. The second level 5 spell pierces it. If your opponent starts with a flamestrike, the reflection pool does nothing.
I was pretty hopeful with the initial change to magic reflect, but this change to reduce the physical resist cap penalizes mages more than it helps...
I don't have a character on Origin, but the publish notes still mentions the -10 physical resists cap, so I'm guessing that it's released as it is.
Devs, please reconsider. In normal situations I would agree that there's some logic of increased magical defense gained at the costs of reduced melee defense. But the current situation is that dexxers are already more powerful than mages. Making a marginally beneficial spell that reduces the defenses of mages against warrior is going to tip that balance further.
You already have several checks and balances in place to prevent magic reflect from being abused, the -10 to the physical resists cap is going overboard.
When I tested ref I am pretty sure it reflected more than 1 spell (did they change it?)... if it will only reflect 1 spell then its utterly useless.
When I tested it I was able to reflect 2 lightings and sometimes 2 lightins and 1 fireball.
And the lastest patch note which is very interesting because they used the EXACT WORDS years ago when they described Magic Reflection. While suggested RNG will be part of the ref calculation.
Edit: Oh I probably wouldnt cast reflection personally... and my disarm archer can moving shot for 30+ with a comp and 45+ with my heavy... and those figures are against 70 physical... hmm yummy.
During my tests, there's no RNG involved.
Maximum reflection pool you can have is always 100%.
The reflection pool you get is scaled by the your magic resists skill. With the 20 magic resist from JOAT and 120 magery/100 inscribe, I always get a reflection pool of 27%.
21 magic resists give a pool of 28%. So I'm guessing 120 magery/100 inscribe/90 resists will get you the max 100% reflection pool.
At 120 magery/100 inscribe/120 magic resists, I always get a reflection pool of 100%, no more, no less.
When you are hit with a spell, each spell level always reduces it by 10%. ie Level 1 spells reduces it by 10%, level 2 by 20%, level 6 by 60%. But level 7 spells always pierces it directly instead of reducing it by 70%.
I agree, I wouldn't use it either. The current incarnation of magic reflect does more harm than good.
All that effort making the changes, coming up with a way to add tactics and dynamics, balancing it, making a pool to track how much it has been weakened, adding a timer to prevent it being cast back to back etc, all wasted...
Why? Who asked for this -10 to the cap? What's the rationale behind it?
What does magic reflect do? It reflects spells. Do dexxers cast spells? No. What does it matter if it lowers physical resist?
Consider this, unless you would never PvP against a dexxer, then, yes, I agree it doesn't matter. If there's a chance that you will cross path with a dexxer/archer etc, then that -10 physical resist will mean a 10% increase in the damage a dexxer will do to you.
The question is, given how many more dexxers/archers/(not to mention tamers with pets that do physical damage) there are, will you take a penalty that will increase their damage to you by 10% to gain an ability that will only work once against lvl 5/6 spells, and not at all against a level 7 spell?
Edit: As pointed out by Lynk, the extra damage you take is actually 30% more, and not 10% more.
And that is considering you cast magic reflect at 120 magery/100 inscribe/120 magic resists.
If you are relying on the 20 magic resists from JOAT, it won't even reflect a level 3 spell like fireball.
As soon and as long as you have magic reflect up, you make yourself more vulnerable to dexxers. but the benefit you gain is almost negligible.
For folks that don't understand -
I am calculating based on original damage being done to a suit with 70 phys. eg an attack that does 10 points of damage against 70 resists will do 3 damage.
Same 10 point attack against a 60s suit will do 4 points of damage.
I am calculating the 1 extra damage upon the 10 full points of damage (1 out of 10 is 10%).
Lynk is calculating that 1 extra damage upon the 3 points of damage it originally would have done if physical resist is still at 70s (1 out of 3 is 33%).
His interpretation is more accurate.
I agree with this.
Pfft... who needs magic reflect anyway? Its good thier adding the "reflect" back into it... but its not needed now that (Magic Arrow + Nether Bolt spam) is gone.
With the current changes to Test the only thing to worry about are archers...
no need to cast reflect for pvp imo. =D
I'm sure the lower D changes to ranged weapons will hardly be noticeable, kinda hard to test it since everyone on test plays a running Wither Stacker...
LJ needs more of a Boost ! ! ! ! ! !
they should just make LJ add actually points of base dmg! =D
I agree, The 100% base weapon damage at 5% is a joke vs 70 resist
A direct damage bonus, say 15-20 would be nice.
Heck, Give me a 5% chance to get frostwood or bump up to the next wood type would be better.
Again I've said it many many times.
LJ damage has to be at least 50-60DI and works ALL THE TIME
LJ damage should be 30% at GM and 100% that procs at least 20-30% of the time
LJ damage should do at least 40 damage thru 70s... 5% of the time.
Why are DEVs insist on the laughable 5% for 7 extra damage? (where's the last time you PvP and it takes 20+ swings to kill someone? so I can get my bonus damage... great... once every TWENTY swings... wtf?)
While 100% DI might sound impressive, it's in reality 6-7 extra damage to 70s... and again that's 6-7 extra damages happening once every T-W-E-N-T-Y (20) swings... to use a very commonly used term to describe this... By spending 100 extra skill points in LJacking you gain 0.35dps (damage per second) sweet right =) I bet I can trash the GM lumberjacking and put GM inscription on my melee dexer and gain 10% more dmg from my 50% hit fireball/lighting and I am pretty sure that will average out more than the godly point-three-five(.35) dps that GM lumberjack proveds.
and to those people who whined about LJ will be OP I will say ROFL... currently GM lumberjack with the biggest axe (ornate) at 120 tactics + 120 anatomy + 100 DI + GM Lumberjack + 150 Str does 76-85 damage... (this is the absolutely max damage for LJer)
76-85 = 22-26 after 70 resist... that's the average of 24dmg
HXBow NOT COUNTING QUIVER 10% AND NO VELOCITY can achieve 74-89 damage at 150 str + 100 Tactics + 100 Anatomy + 100DI (so at 140 less skill points required) 74-89= 23-27 after 70 resist... thats average damage of 25dmg
That's 1 more damage on average dealt by archer from a distance at 140 less skill points spent in damage AND you have the option to chug... Again in reality archers will do much MUCH more damage (factoring in Quiver 10% and Velocity capable adding 21 raw damage to a heavy) than GM lumberjacking even if their 100% DI bonus works 100% of the time!!!
Again 76-85 is LJ axer's max raw damage. 5% chance to add 70% DI on top of that which is 13.3 (round up to 14) damage
Making LJ final damage of
76-85 (95% of the time) and
90-99 (5% of the time)
Archers? at 140 less skill points can use potions and has effective attack range of 7 tile *not counting quiver bonus damage* assuming having 50 hit velocity (adds a flat 21 raw damage at 7 tiles)on his bow. Result?
74-89 (50% of the time) and
95-110 (50% of the time)
I dont even want to factor in the quiver damage, coz if I did, there are only 2 possible outcomes. 1. JL Axer is extremely underpowered and 2. Archers are amazingly overpowered.
If you are going to argue velocity will "waste 140 intensity" lol. Well I dont know about you, but I am pretty sure most of not all pvpers will KILL for 140 more skill points + 7-tile range (that's 152 offensively effective tiles around you, melee dexers has a whooping 8 in comparsion) + ability to chug... at the expense of using a few ITEM MODS.
Why were the PvP focus group dismissed anyways?
With all the changes for the upcomming Publish 69 does anyone feel like the classic necro mage template will outdo the mystic mage with meditation template for raiding and choke point fights? I've heard from both sides that it would only take a couple of necro mages to wither spam and drop a group of mystic mages spamming cleanse, can anyone confirm this or tell me which one would be the better choice atleast?
has anyone tested to see if Mystic mage with 120 parry 70 dci is any good if you've got atleast +50 stats from items on suit and 255 stat cap? I don't think ive ever seen a mystic parry mage and im not sure if its cause its hard to fit the stats on the suit or what. Sure would solve the dexer problem though woudlnt it? I wish theyd remove the 80 dex requirement for 120 parry so i could see these templates.
Why would I stand in your wither 4 tile range when we can precast hailstorm and *instantly* cast it from 12 tiles away? AND hit *unlimited* number of you, if you guys are standing together (yes you need to for wither bombs).
Unfortunately I dont think necromages can out-chock a myst mages. IMO NOT EVEN CLOSE. Do you know how many myst mages needed to *insta-kill* anyone/group that dropped down to the choke? 5 at MOST. 4 myst mages precast hailstorm against uncursed targets will dish out around 35-37 a pop times 4 its 140hp done "instantly", you probably figure well everyone has 150hp now we can just quickly chug... NO if it's a chock right on entrance to T2A/Fire/Drop downs ect where as soon as your character get xfered from one subserver to another you instantly lose ALL +stats on your suit... you will have at very most 125 hp and you will instantly take 140dmg the second you land on the other side... Withers requires the necros to be up close and personal and requires casting and deal 20 damage per cast where as hailstorm can be precasted and each will deal out nearly double of what wither can do.
On top of that necros have wraith which is true, but myst group will have straight 75 resist cap, they will even resist your poison field furthermore with prot they can all party up and stay together this way they can HEAL WHILE STANDING INSIDE your poison fields. All they have to do is dedicate 1 or 2 crosshealer doing prot cleansing wind. Yes after patch the CW healing might be nerfed but the fact that they can do AOE heal that removes all curses cures all poisons AND still get a few points healed thru whatever you have thrown to em. Necros follow the same old rules, yes you can push thru anything but that only means you push thru to get instantly killed or you push thru and dip out and leave your guildies to dry.
For a choke point guarded by hailstorm gank squad, you pretty much need to have a Spellweaver to do a suicide essence of wind on them (and then die and possibly stated) and your necros then charge them while their casting is slowed. (still no gurrantee since they will quite possibly be in stone form which has all 75 resist and running port and in a party where anyone cast a heal means everyone gets a heal.
No comment on the myst parry mage as I have no experience ever seeing one.
Id really like to try out the "mystic parry mage" template just to see how good it is or "fun" it is to stand there and watch a dexer whale on you and not do anything. I think it'd be a good template even after the changes in publish 69? But is it possible to make the NON FACTION suit required for this template? WITHOUT Pots this is what I gathered so far...
Total stats from the second non faction suit below:
LT Sash - 5
Tangle - 10
Ring - 12
Hat of Magi - 8
Pendent - 10
Slither - 10
= Total 58 stats with 255 stat cap I figure stats would be 116/80/116 unblessed no pots.
First Non Faction Suit -
If I can get 8 LMC on each of the 5 pieces I need then i can use Ring of Soulbinder with the mods on ring above except ring above would be a bracelet if using ring of soulbinder..
5 DCI - Quiver
15 DCI - Arcane Shield
10 DCI - Clothes
10 DCI - Slither
Reading Glasses of Arts:
10 8 8 4 10 resist
60 77 62 81 60
12 16 13 17 12 resist 2 MR 8 lmc 16 lrc
Second Non faction Suit -
OR Try to make the suit using Pendent of Magi and Hat of Magi
15 Fire Resist (Or drop this for 8 STR)
4 Int (Or go with 3 Intel)
15 Fire Resist (Or drop this for 8 Dex)
4 Poison Resist (or go with 1 intel)
Hat of Magi resists: 0 5 9 20 20
Using Pendent, arcane shield and hat of magi id need: 60 LRC
Chest, Sleeves, Gloves, Legs
70 50 61 50 50 resist
(30 fire resist from jewelry makes it 50)
18 13 16 13 13 resist - 2 MR 8 LMC 15 LRC
Typically im trying to make something thats 70 DCI 2/6 15 SDI 40 lmc 100 lrc with atleast 15 MR and 115+ HP 115+ INT 80 DEX unblessed (i could see the HP and Intel around 125+ each) and without pots. I woudln't expect the fire and poison to be corpse proof being so tight on the mods and all. I would just expect all resists to be 70s down the board. The only mana problems you may have is from casting fields non stop, but I dont see why it would have mana issues if youve got the 15 MR and your not continuously casting a field on ur screen, or something that takes a lot of mana. If anyone can duplicate these stats or make something even better for this type of template could you PM me or ICQ me at 103-086-263 please. Its a damn headache I tell ya trying to figure it out.
To put it short. The focus groups were nothing more than an audience. All of Publish 46 was Guildmules and EA's Jeremy's doing via email. The changes were put into place on TC before the Focus group was even formed. The input from the focus group was never considered and they ram rodded the publish through.
All the changes came from 1 guy who didn't even pvp. Maybe JCBuilder can explain it better, but it did show favortism and corruption. I think I still have some of Jeremy's wild emails when the cover was blown.
There have been a lot of changes made to pvp and everything should be reevaluated. The Tactics requirement for specials was never an issue. Precasting specials was never an issue. The 80 dex for parry is outdated. The SDI cap should be adjusted up. A 3-4 spell combo doesn't even scratch people, it should level them.
Regarding the 'fleshing out of the abyss'.
There are two types of gargoyles, Outcasts which seem to be Necro casters, and Rousers which seem to be Mystic casters... which seemed odd considering Rouser is the Provoke title.
Can't be Animal Lore'd as they aren't animals, so don't know much else about them.
Anatomy and Eval could give you a sense of their stats, if they don't follow the trend of being hideously inflated in lieu of any decent AI.
A skill tutor statue or crystal ball of knowledge could give you a sense of melee skill.
Just thought I would throw this in..
I found a bug with Parry. Parry doesn't work with a throwing weapon equipped.
Yes I sent in a bug report. I was hoping that they could do a quick fix before publishing, though it maybe to late in the game.
Anyone know when this publish 69 is comming out on all the live shards (more specifically atlantic)?
For the mystic-parry mage... Please let me know what you plan on running for your skills. If you are using a mage wep and shield and not chugging, you will be an easy target for anyone.
@ WarUltima- You say you want to fight me and when I ran across you on chessy yesterday I said lets fight then also spammed general chat and you decided not to fight anymore. BTW LOL @ being a mystic archer.
I toyed with this for a while.
100 mage (20 crystalline)
100 focus (20 crystalline)
Only 15% chance to parry. You could switch out the folded steel for aegis of grace, and switch talisman to the orc brute talisman and get parry up to 82 which is 20% chance to parry, assuming 80 dex.
In the end, I found it more beneficial to either have spellweaving or ninjitsu with those remaining points.
Thats what I intended to run, only with 60 Med or Necro. Never got around to it though, the suit for it was nice too, 100 rpd 18 hpr and all the usual stuff. (oh and it was gargoyle).
*wonders how long it will take people to discover that the change to magic reflect was a bad idea*
Well apperently 2 mages that I killed from full life to dead in 3 moving shots accused me for running damage hack. Because I hit them for exactly 40 damage + fireball + velocity PER BOLT.
AND they accused me for running a hack to have "Hit Lower Physical Cap 10%" invisible mod on my bows after I told them to check their armor. Then they threatened me they are calling GM on me for exploiting if I dont teach them how to "unHitLowerPhysical" their armor.
You will be amazed how many people are clueless about any game changes.
So what would be a good mage template to run with now? Anyone been trying out any old classic templates or switching the templates to something new, and hows it workin for ya with the publish 69?
Without a combat skill (i guess that'd be the anatomy in that template) woudln't 120 parry still have a 35% chance to block at 80 dex? So coudln't you still go with mystic parry mage just no combat skill? With combat skill isn't it like 55% chance to block whereas no combat and 120 parry 80 dex its 35% chance to block? My problem is I don't know which would block better with a shield having 120 parry 80 dex and no combat skill or 120 wrestling with a shield. I was told even for archers having wrestling and no parry is stil harder to hit you then if you didnt have wrestling at all, but I don't know if the parry would be better to have or not.
Can't you sticky this old info somewhere else?
Better yet, give us some new publish info instead of letting it drag on forever.
Even most of the whiners have stopped replying to the proposed changes. Put a fork in testing it already and run it.
I will get a reference area set up to move this info to like the data chest area for crafting!