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120/120 music provoke....

Discussion in 'UHall' started by BardMal, Feb 7, 2009.

  1. BardMal

    BardMal Guest

    .... a reptile slayer tambourine; no less than 9 years experience as a provoke bard - something needs to be fixed regarding greater dragons and provoke.

    Indeed, it is time that provoke got fixed all around.

    The game has been elbow deep with a fist up provokers for long enough.

    Either kiss us provokers, or sell us off to a third world slave market.

    I'm tired of pretending that playing my archers or tamers is satisfying for my recreational enjoyment.
     
  2. canary

    canary Guest

    I play a provoker (120 music/120 provoke) and I disagree.

    We need a challenge, it shouldn't be an instant provoke. I enjoy the challenge, I'm sorry you don't.
     
  3. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    I dunno....My bard rules. I provo greaters onto Rikktor. Maybe you should add disco to your temp for better results. I would imagine greaters are a pain without it but bard are terribly powerful as they stand right now.
     
  4. Tom_Builder

    Tom_Builder Slightly Crazed
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    The one thing I would love to see for my bard is a harp of faster playing. Mages have faster casting, warriors have swing speed increase, us bards need something to drop our delay down some. When we fail the delay is way to long. And with greaters, we fail alot. I even fail alot after discording them.

    Tom
     
  5. BardMal

    BardMal Guest

    I had 22 failures in a row. When I did finally get one greater killed, I barely got to loot it, because the other greater wouldn't provoke onto anything. In two hours I killed two greaters, and red lined a third.

    If an archer missed that often it would be considered unplayable. If a legendary tamer had to make 22 commands before being obeyed, no one would play a tamer.

    There's a difference between "a challenge" and unacceptably difficult.

    For me, the challenge used to be adding dragons onto the mosh pit and attempting to balance out their life bars by manipulating targeting.

    Pre cast invis; run up/target self; pull bars, attempt provoke; run away & invis; then repeat is not what I consider a challenge; not what I enjoy about destard.

    A solo bard is hard pressed to get any looting rights at a spawn. Not a big deal; except all of my spawn playing friends have quite UO.

    After two and a half weeks of building a bard on a new shard, I have reached 65 provoke, 99 music; and I wonder what the world outside of my computer room looks like.

    After mind numbing rinse/repeat failures provoking kappas I need some encouragement, a reminder of what I'm going through this for.

    So I log into my "main" shard to remind myself how much fun I will have when my new bard is finished; by taking my old bard to Destard. 3 hours and 14 deaths later I'm beginning to wonder why I play UO these last almost 10 years.
     
  6. Madrid

    Madrid Slightly Crazed
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    Greater Dragons rank at 160 barding difficulty according to UO Guide which is top tier and equivalent to Peerless. So without Discordance it's going to be very difficult especially if your trying to provoke two 160's onto eachother.

    I'm all for Bards getting a revamp and many many goodies added to them (some of the players here have come up with some good ideas) but without the use of discordance in order to provoke a 160 you really don't have much room to be complaining.

    Ever tried to get 2 Paragon Cus to fight eachother? It's not easy nor should it be.

    And I still believe my bard to be my most powerful character. He can turn a dungeon upside down when played properly.

    I'd love to see songs that are the equivalent of casting spells like others have suggested. Definately we need a speed increase as mentioned above because the cool off time is a killer and too long imo. We should also be able to play a song and "Charm" monsters or pets like a Dragon or Cu much like the Pied Piper lead rats through the streets.

    Anyhow I understand your frustration but again your talking about top tier 160. Those Greaters Dragons are no joke. There's not many monsters I run from in game GD's are one of them though.
     
  7. Chrille

    Chrille Journeyman
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    Not that uncommon to use a lot more then 22 attempts to tame a greater dragon. First you get 10 failures and you get one chance to tame. Then 6 more and a new chance and so on. I guess close to 100 or so before you get a greater dragon with you.
    And like it have been said before you cant use every template to hunt everything. Maybe you could hunt some other things then greater dragons with your bard if you find it difficult.
     
  8. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    After reading on the firehorn. I decided to do a 4x120 Bard. From watching other barding over the years tried to go about my tactics that way. Find you have to discord the fatties first point blank. Nothing that work two years ago let alone 6 works the same today. And I have to agree my firehorn bard is my biggest gold/loot winner. No other template can go solo the named undead in Bedlam more comfortably. I know no other template that could of solo killed off as many Black Rock Eli spawn.

    Firehorn Bard template : 120 in all four bard skills (81-100PVM fire area damage, 110 to a WW.) Weapon Skill, Paladin, leftovers Resist Magic.
    Jewelry for this template priority is skill points and all the armor bard skill pumps (Travesty Mask, Song Woven Mantel, Headdress for archer), Traveling Minstrel Tally.
    Once through imbueding have the balance set of slayer bows will put the Blackthorn Slayers away.

    I am a big fan of discord and what 5 trained frenzy or hellcats do to spawn.
     
  9. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    I am an archer and have missed targets 12 times in a row on several occasions. Target that I should have a greater than 50% chance of hitting given my skill & HCI versus its Wrestling. Given the streakiness of th RNG, your 22 failures on targets that you have a 20% chance of suceeding seems, what's the term, "not unreasonable?". Not everything is meant to be easy, and I would not have a easy time fighting something I had a 20% chance of hitting either (especially something as tough as an untamed GD). I have not once considered my archer to be unplayable, frustrating but not unplayable.

    To tackle the bigger beasts, I find myself working with others (usually we just met there). You might want to do the same. You will find it as rewarding as it was with your other friends.

    The other posters pointed out that discord will help make the GDs easier. I can attest to that. With Discord, my bard has little problem killing things. You will find that the discorded targets will not only be easier, but die much faster due to their resist being lowered. My bard is tougher than my archer, for controlling large groups and operating in heavy spawn areas.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  10. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    And here I came to the boards all excited because my peace mage finally took down an ancient wyrm for the first time since they were buffed.

    (went to do a level 1 map and recalled into the middle of the leftover spawn of someone's level 6)

    I don't have a provoker, but I find my peace bards always walk a fine line between helpless and invincible - there is such a huge difference in outcomes between success and failure on each song.
     
  11. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Crazed Zealot
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    Well for one I can understand the OP's disgust/disappointment. Not with the bard tho, since I don't have one, but with things in general. I worked for a long time to gm Magery, was soo proud of that feat...and had a lotta fun. Now, at 110, I fail casting the 8th circle spells more than I did when I was GM before PS came out. Say what you will, quote all the mathematical formulae you want to toss out, but instead of looking at papers and codes and numbers, I'M DOIN IT AND SEEING IT INGAME DAILY!!! Run into Humility spawn casting evs, and fail fail fail fail.
    What Bardmal and me, and archers, and everyone is seeing, is this never ending cycle they ahve gotten us into of OMG nothing's a challenge...so they beef up the beasts, and then OMG they can't kill that...so they add stronger items to the game (which at the same time makes the existing items drop in usefulness)...OMG that shouldnt be that easy, nerf a skillset...OMG they don't have a chance (give some skillset a boost, making it the set of choice and leaving everyone else a step behind once again [two steps now]..
    Keep rinsing and repeating...
    Adapt??

    In 10 years I've adapted till I'm nothing but an adaptor...
     
  12. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Crazed Zealot
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    Oh yeah, Congrats Maplestone!!! :)
     
  13. canary

    canary Guest

    Can we all keep the perspective that Greater Dragons were created as a response to players wanting harder creatures they shouldn't be able to kill on their own (or at least have a heck of a time solo'ing)?
     
  14. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    I just recently GM'ed my Adaptation, but I can't find a powerscroll in Luna to work it any further. :sad4:

    I am glad the GDs are hard to kill in Destard. They make Destard deadly, like it once was, even to a seasoned player.

    BardMal - Have you tried Provoking normal Dragons onto the Greaters? Dragons still give good loot. You might succeed more. If my bard's Provoke was anything close to a decent level (I avoid training this skill like the plague) I would give that a try.

    Maplestone - Good Work with the AW. I've recalled into left over spawn doing Plain maps before, it always ends poorly. :gun:

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  15. BardMal

    BardMal Guest

    OMG, I fell outta my seat laughing - so nice when I see someone else "gets what I'm trying a say".
     
  16. Ravahan

    Ravahan Guest

    I had some limited success with taking down greaters in destard on my treasure hunter, which doesn't have discord and only 119 music/115 provo. How? Get the regular dragons to do the dirty work for you. This probably wouldn't go so well at a champ spawn, but for regular hunting it works great. Dragon slayer instrument, provoke the dragon onto the greater dragon. It helps to try to get two on it at a time, and even wyverns help out with their poison. Just mob the ****er. Not only will it eventually drop, but you'll have a good amount of draconic corpses to loot at the end, and a good challenge to boot.

    But yeah, discord would really really help...
     
  17. rwek

    rwek Guest

    How many of these provokers who are happy with the current system are cheating and by-passing the skill reuse timer? Hurm, we will never know.
     
  18. canary

    canary Guest

    I do not cheat and am quite content with the current system, I just don't like to have everything in the game handed to me on a platter.

    We CAN provoke greaters, it is just exceptionally difficult... as it should be.
     
  19. Black magick

    Black magick Guest

    Ditto, anyone who wants them to be toned down so you can provoke em every time, or close to, needs to grow a pair.
     
  20. the bigger isue is that it is easier to tame one than to bard it in any way !!!!
    and the fact that you can honor one then tame in no time when my 120 peacer cant keep it calm for a second is even more insane
     
  21. yea it is unfair that honor 0 skill points is more powerfull than peacemaking 240 skill points...
     
  22. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    I find the fail/pass just fine for the GD. As other post have covered the Honor is abused in many ways.

    The Art Team needs a crayon pay boost to make the paperdoll and avatar artwork for holding an instrument. Then the Code Mages need to be poked with a sharp wand like stick to speed up the bard "use skill" for true bards holding an instrument. If you want to thumb through a spell book or hold a bow and fire arrows then the current timer is just fine for barding.

    The funny thing about provo a dragon on a greater dragon.............without discording the GD it will kill a normal dragon before you have a chance to provo another dragon or wyvern on it.
     
  23. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    I understand you Mal; I don't even play my bard anymore.
     
  24. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    A provoker is one of, if not the strongest PvM character.

    No need for a boost.
     
  25. Aboo

    Aboo Guest

    All these people who have said that it's fine the way it is, first I'd like to know do you actually play a bard? If so do you actually provoke GDs on GDs? If you do what sort of success do you have doing it? What skills do you have on your bard template?

    For those of you who are saying add discord, what kind of template do you currently have? I have a bard at 120 Musicianship, 120 Provocation and 120 Peacemaking. Her other skills are 115 Eval Int, 110 Magery, and 100 Meditation. I already have no room for Magic Resist. If I add Discordance what other skill can I safely do without?
     
  26. canary

    canary Guest

    That's how I feel. God, I totally save everyones collective you know whats at champ spawns... even on highest tiers.

    I really feel that giving us an EASIER time killing things like GREATER DRAGONS is unnecessary. If you have that much of an issue, go fight what you know you can provoke safely.
     
  27. Lost-Soul

    Lost-Soul Guest

    Try cursing the greater . . . it lowers the barding difficulty of the monster because you are lowering its stats.
     
  28. Seismic

    Seismic Guest

    I'm doing fine without Eval but I rely heavily on summons.

    I actually have enjoyed my bard again with the town invasions (lots to provo, lots of action, etc -- minus the crimmy).

    I'm just now starting to do champ spawns, and I'll think I'll bust out the firehorn again. I can see the advantage of it on a spawn vs. single bosses.
     
  29. Seismic

    Seismic Guest

    Wow, I didn't know that .. this could potentially be very helpful.
     
  30. Aboo

    Aboo Guest

    Hmmm, I may soulstone my EI and try adding Discord and see how that works.
     
  31. Madrid

    Madrid Slightly Crazed
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    I run:
    120 Musicianship
    120 Discordance
    120 Provocation
    120 Peacemaking
    120 Magery
    120 Spellweaving

    I wear alot of MR and throw down alot of EV's. It makes a huge difference having 120 Magery and being able to cast EV with 100% success. Also with Discordance and EV you can really take down alot of monsters quick. And most importantly the EV's buy you time allowing you do jam your tunes and start everyone dancing.

    When I get bored I'll charm an AOL and keep him as my person body guard.

    I haven't provoked two GD's onto eachother but I have done with other 160's and it's extremely dangerous.

    I've done Paragon Cu's and I've pitted Rend and Miasma against eachother. Also Pyre vs. Rend.:)
     
  32. Seismic

    Seismic Guest


    Sheesh, man, that's got to be ALOT of disco failures to accomplish Rend vs. Miasma and Pyre vs. Rend .. holy cow..!

    You know, one thing that I don't do regularly is carry around slayer instruments. I always have a GM instrument on me (and insured) but not slayers. Are you all buying these up on your respective shards and using them fairly exclusively?
     
  33. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Nice template. Mine is..

    120 Musicianship
    120 Discordance
    120 Provocation
    120 Peacemaking
    105 Magery
    100 Lockpicking
    100 Cartography

    ..cramped and gimped up with more jewels than I care to admit. I'm tempted to soulstone Carto but I like my treasure hunts. I know you can stone if off after you decode your maps, but I bet the moment I do that is when they'll "fix" it. Maybe I can switch out Peace for Carto, I typically don't use Peace on treasure hunts.

    At any rate, I don't find provoking greaters to be underpowered.. I think they're pretty much right as is. I didn't know about that curse thing.. I might try that with my 20 Eval from JoaT, see if it's worth throwing into my repertoire.
     
  34. Aboo

    Aboo Guest

    Mind explaining to me why you have spellweaving? What advantage do you have putting it with the other skills you have?

    Also with no Eval Int, do your EVs do any damage?
     
  35. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    Eval doesn't effect the strength of your summons.
     
  36. Aboo

    Aboo Guest

    Really? Only spells like e-bolt, flamestrike, etc.?

    I sound like such a newbie. You wouldn't know I'd been playing for 11+ years would you? :eek:
     
  37. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    Yeah it's something like it only effects damage spells, buffs and debuffs.

    Although there are exceptions to that rule. I'm sure someone with more time than me could probably post a list of which spells are effected by Eval.
     
  38. canary

    canary Guest

    Pretty much any non summons minus Mind Blast, iirc.
     
  39. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    My 4x120 bard has sword / chiv/ and leftovers resist. With the tactics nerf I would go with archery over sword to aviod the area effect spells effects damage. Firehorn has a range of three with an area effect (4x120 bard does 81-100 damage PVM. With 64 skills in jewel set.......10 on mantel sleeves........10 on minstrel tally.........20 on travesty or hunters. Without all that mage mods needed in a suit can make for better mods in armor for fighters.

    And for those that find Rend tough. Get on a weaver with a deep mana pool and just Natures Fury it to death. Those little bugs tear him up easy.
     
  40. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I don't have eval on my 4 120 bard either. EVs, fields, summons, heal and cure spells are not affected by eval. Also, there's 1 direct damage spell that works fine without eval - mind blast.

    Note that buff spells like bless won't last more than a second either.

    Spellweaving is very useful in this case since you will be relying on EVs heavily for your damage. EVs can be dispelled and takes alot of mana. A dryad allured Artic Orge Lord will give you a pet that cannot be dispelled :D

    Also, since you are not doing direct damage, no need for med. MR quipment should be more than enough to re-cast the 1 EV needed to help the AOL.

    Spellweaving also have many very useful features:

    1) Allows you to cast word of death on tough mobs or bosses
    2) Gift of life
    3) Gift of renewal for the AOL in tandem with GHeals when your AOL goes againts tougher mobs
    4) Etheral voyage yourself when going through gates to the middle of the balron rooms so that the mobs target the AOL instead of you
     
  41. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Oh yeah, the nature furies are very useful too!

    Sprites/imps are great as well and there are several ways to use them. Level 5 focus means you get 5 sprites per cast.

    Plus spellweaving has no reg requirement.
     
  42. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    Back on the original subject, I was one of the people way back when who desperately wanted the change to difficulty based barding. We had good reasons back then which amounted to, "Bard skills are too easy to hunt with as anyone with 100 music and 50 provoke can kill anything in game." But the game back then (2000-2001) was an entirely different beast.

    As of right now, a tamer/archer with a reptile slayer bow can kill a greater dragon faster than a bard can provoke two dragons against each other. In addition, when the tamer's dragon is on the greater dragon, the tamer/archer does it in ABSOLUTE SAFETY. In the mean time, the bard is running around trying not to get breathed on and waiting for the timer to run out.

    My conclusion: The barding difficulty of some things is just too high. The timer on the bard skills needs a good looking at (I gave up provoke when I realized I could kill 3-4 cyclopses and titans in the time it too provoke one pair).

    I won't go into details about my ideas, but I do agree that the bard needs a buff. They do have great survivability, but their offensive powers stink.
     
  43. Harb

    Harb Guest

    "Barding" is probably the toughest of all the skills/ sets to balance from Dev's view, but I say with certainty that all bards have a great friend in Leorcian, who has played a bard since our game's birth and prior to employment with EA was one of bardings most influential advocates (no intent to put you "on the spot" Pat).

    A big part of the problem is that everyone who has posted is "right," even when observations and opinions may seem in direct contrast. Further, when played to full potential (which most of us seldom do, self included), the combination of abilities are very powerfull and can dominate PvM spawn without regard for others. So enhancing capablity while maintaining balance is a tough nut to crack. But the OP and others are also correct, as the game advances with new additions, many of the things bards could (and should) do, and the playstyle of and motivators for playing bards have "lagged" over the years.

    I do think there are a few things that might help, 1) relook the delay timers, 2) review the 160 creature set, 3) allow LRC to influence firehorn ash consumption, 4) integrate discord effects as damage for looting purposes, 5) employ a first provoke "rule" for provoke effects, and 6) ease the skill gain formula. I'm unwilling to get more specific on items 1 & 2, balance testing would be required before doing so. Things I don't "favor" are specific songs (for those who remember the concept, I prefer separate skills) and re-visiting entice/ charm (we have 3 viable skills post pub 16, and a 200-480 skill commitment range doesn't need to "grow").

    Good luck!
     
  44. Aboo

    Aboo Guest

    Thanks for explaining. I think I understand everything except the part I put in red. Can you elaborate?
     
  45. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Sure.

    Say you are fighting balrons and succubi, your direct damage spells will barely scratch it. So you'll be relying on EVs. With only magery, you can cast 2 EVs (each takes 2 pet slots) which takes 50 mana each without LMC.

    EVs can be dispelled. If the mob you are fighting dispels both your EVs, you have to recast them both again. Even with 150 mana, you can't keep it up forever esp against balrons and succubi. Allured humanoid mobs takes 3 slots but cannot be dispelled. That 2 remaing pet control slot is just nice for an EV. And if the mob dispels your EV, you only need to recast 1. Saving alot of mana. Your don't even need med if you have enough MR equipment.
     
  46. Aboo

    Aboo Guest

    That all makes great sense now, except for one thing. What's an "Allured humanoid mob"? Is it a spell a spellweaver casts like a summoned earth element? It's fairly obvious I have played my spellweaver very little isn't it? :eek:
     
  47. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Oh, I mean humanoid monsters (those that repond slayers will work on) that you cast dryad allure on.

    Dryad allure only works on the "repond" monsters. Once you successfully cast dryad allure on the monster, they will be charmed by you and will behave and follow your orders like a hired npc.

    Even gaining the ability to speak. Just remember to cast gate instead of recall to bring them around. They will dissappear if you recall or logout.

    Artic orge lords are one of the more popular repond monsters to use. Good resists and hp. Meer captains and meer eternals are cool to try out at least once as well, but doesn't work as well for me due to how I play.
     
  48. Seismic

    Seismic Guest

    Yea but you can't take the AOL everywhere .. I haven't tried in awhile, so I don't remember specifics but there are places he can't go.
     
  49. Madrid

    Madrid Slightly Crazed
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    Sorry I didn't get back to this thread sooner but it appears to be a good thing as Harlequin answered all the questions better than I could.:)

    We need more threads on Bards!

    @Fink I envy your template for Treasure Hunting if they actually made the treasure hunting process worthwhile I'd try that template and do more because they can be alot of fun sometimes. There needs to be a bigger loot boost though like a % chance at a Doom Artifact/relic or some kind of carrot rather what's currently out there. Another thing that needs a serious look. Those ML artifacts are worthless...maybe a whole new unique trove of treasure artifacts needs to be introduced.

    @Seismic I usually just use GM exceptional as slayers can be a double edged sword sometimes. I do have a set of flute of renewals but don't really use them. I don't think the difference is that noticeable from my experience. I'm not sure how much the increase is for using slayers but it did seem to be alot on the barding calculator but in game I just don't seem to notice.

    @Aboo Spellweaving really seems to fit my needs for all the reasons Harlequin posted. Gift of Life is really nice to have around if your pushing your luck and going for some crazy provokes. It's life insurance.:D

    And Nature's Fury are probably one of the best spells that can occupy monsters and buy time for you while the cool off timer elapses.

    I really think the bard is overdue for some lovin'. :)
     
  50. Seismic

    Seismic Guest

    I am gonna stone med and try Weaving on my bard .. your logic about having an AOL instead of EVs makes perfect sense to me. Monsters dispelling my EVs is the #1 thing I dislike with my bard..even with 115 med, I can't ever seem to keep up!

    But since I run a 60 resist luck suit (949 luck without statue), I am not able to just change out armor for MR - I am stubborn that way :). So, I may try to run a mix of med and weaving.

    If I don't care about WoD, what is the MINIMUM weaving I need to do most of everything? Based on UOGuide, it looks like 60-65?