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2-handed weapons

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Cetric, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    its been said before and i'll say it again. 2 handed weapons need a boost (pvp wise)

    Maybe polearms/2 handers should have a 2 tile range... (my favorite)

    maybe they should all get a 3rd new special move...

    maybe there imbue cap should be higher...

    maybe they should have balanced added as a possible mod...

    maybe they should have any nice effect to make them enticing....

    maybe give them the ability to randomly stun.. (my other favorite)

    maybe cap them at a certain speed (not including swing speed) and make them have no stam requirement

    i dunno..


    discuss.. :mf_prop:
     
  2. Shakkara

    Shakkara Slightly Crazed
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    Had a freeserver where the polearms had 2 tiles range, and could have 5 sockets instead of 3. Some of the shorter ranged 2 handers got a base damage boost.

    Worked very nicely.

    But I think the whole combat system as it is needs an overhaul.

    Damage reduction should be flat numbers, not percentages. Then dealing larger packets of damage would work better on heavily armored foes, and many small packets on lightly armored foes.

    That and Platemail (or any metal) armor needs to be better than leather... Either by giving it more base damage reduction or giving it more properties.
     
  3. should give you distance of 2 tiles. You might hit before player steps in and can hit you.
     
  4. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    To go with this.. i always felt that the type of gloves you have on should effect your wrestling damage or special moves. You are telling me if I had platemail gloves on, that conc blow wouldn't make more sense? =P


    I think the 2 tile range thing would be the most sensible for all 2 handed weaps (might have to exclude some of the smaller 2 handers, or come up with something for those) I'd love to run around with a long spear or axes again, its just not practical in todays uo.
     
  5. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Also... i think adding something of an inherent bonus (like random stun or a 3rd special move) i think might be key as well. Right now in pvp there would be no reason to use a hally or a war hammer. Adding a 3rd special move to these (maybe its selectable?) might make chars more customizable. Add a bonus for platemail armor, and the ability to convert a robe and this would go leaps and bounds. for char customizing.

    On the platemail armor thing, the easiest thing they could do would just give it a 550 or 6mod imbuing cap, and it would have that little bonus so that some people might use it.
     
  6. >DatGuyUKnow<

    >DatGuyUKnow< Visitor

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    Concerning the two tile range idea, how could one-handed weapon users possibly compete? The two-handed user could literally just run from them while still doing damage the entire time...
     
  7. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    1 handed users would use potions, and potions are a pretty big deal (total refresh, heal, cure) a 2 handed weapon would be limited to bandaids or chiv.

    Both setups would be played the same essentially, the 2 handed user would just hit the one handed guy first. Sure if you could somehow always keep your distance from another dexer with a 1 handed weap, you would connect more then him, but he always could heal more effectively than you ever could. Honestly an extra tile away isn't that big of a deal, but its similiar to adding 5 hit chance racially to gargoyles. its not a giant problem, but it is a perk. This perk would essentially make 2 handed weapons useful at the cost of defensive ability. (and offense if you count refresh and stat bonus pots)
     
  8. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Not much different from archery now?

    Or Throwing?

    -Galen's player
     
  9. >DatGuyUKnow<

    >DatGuyUKnow< Visitor

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    Archers and throwers have to stop moving to shoot.
     
  10. >DatGuyUKnow<

    >DatGuyUKnow< Visitor

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    I can just see it being extremely frustrating trying to kill somebody running away from you while healing and doing damage to you at the same time. Very difficult to determine how much of an advantage it would be without physically testing it out.
     
  11. Mirt

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    The two handed weapons definitely need some love. They are generally slower and they really should hit harder. Maybe the 2 tiles would compensate for that. It does tend to be part of a trend where they gave far to many things that had no trade off. Thats a big part of choosing what to do. Trade offs in speed for damage. Trade offs in how high the resists are for mage armor things like that would really shake things up and make things more interesting and fun.
     
  12. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Fight a thrower with a dexer, then imagine it being easier, best i can give ya without seeing it in action
     
  13. Elric_Soban

    Elric_Soban Babbling Loonie
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    This has been brought up time and time again, and I agree with it but apparently the devs do not.

    Higher possible properties on 2 handers
    More possible properties on 2 handers
    Lower mana cost on specials for 2 handers
    Improve DPS of all 2 handers

    That should help.
     
  14. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    The answer is not a higher imbuing cap for 2 handed weapons, "Higher imbuing cap" isnt the answer to ANYTHING...

    higher base damage for 2h weapons, Or bring back the only "chance to proc" specs based on anatomy, Or both imo.
     
  15. >DatGuyUKnow<

    >DatGuyUKnow< Visitor

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    Again, they have to stop moving.
     
  16. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    What if it were a special move to, with 1 or 2 weapons per class, reach two tiles?

    Could replace one of the specials on the impacted weapons.

    Halbred. Bardiche. Spear. Staff.

    High mana cost so you'd have to use it judiciously. Say, as a last-ditch attempt to kill a low-health target while he's running away.

    And of course with high mana leach it has potential use in PvM as well.....

    -Galen's player
     
  17. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Not bad, on any 2 hander, make it so u can toggle 2-tile range on with your special, and it costs a little more mana.
     
  18. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    One reason why I suggest not every 2-hander is fictional.

    Not every two-handed weapon has that kind of reach. Take the daisho. Basically that's a katana, with a short sword held in the left hand.

    Another reason is that, to my mind, one of the best arguments to do something like this is to make more-useful certain weapons that are not in as-common use. Some of UO's most-potent weapons historically, such as the 3 I mentioned, but which while nowhere near as under-used as some think, are still under-used in objective terms.

    Compare those 3 to, say, the daisho or the double axe in terms of usage...Not much reason to promote them, I suggest.

    -Galen's player
     
  19. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    before the LJ nurf years ago, I ran an 'axer', tons of playtime & loads of fun, never again. I've tried 2 handers since, pretty much all they do is make me dead (pvm)
    yeah, they hit hard, but they don't do squat if you whif 2-3 times ina row - that's near 10+seconds between hits, and in most fights someone is dead by then.
    How is that supposed to be fun? How is that even playable? (exc for a few circumstances and/in pvp)
     
  20. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    even worse in pvp now, with imbue it's trivial to damage cap even a kryss, why ever bother with a hally when the little one handed kyrss hits just as hard but 5x as fast?
     
  21. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    I like the idea of giving them a two tile radius....except on ONE weapon.

    The No-dachi. Already having to heal your pet to remount is a big enough pain. No reason a weapon with a bonus like that should get an extra two tiles.
     
  22. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    I can think of a reason... since you can heal your pet and instantly get back on it or just animal form without a delay.
     
  23. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    not every template has ninjitsu.

    Healing your mount isn't always an easy thing to do. If it's a 1 v 1 situation it is, but most riding swipers tend to travel in packs.
     
  24. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    They better not add a 2 tile range on melee weapons, its not a simple fix and would cause ALOT more problems than it would fix, a simple base damage increase would be ALL that is needed. melee is fine, its just WEAK compared to ranged, and it should be the other way around.

    Base damage increase or make ALL 2h melee weapons balanced.. personally chugging pots wouldnt really increase the useage of the 2h weps, so base dmg+ would be the way to go, Maybe some special weapon moves need some revamping as well. but a 2 tile range on melee?... thats just a bad idea. it would work for pvm, but it would completely ruin pvp, I would rather keep it balanced as possible in Every Way, Balance is THE ABSOLUTE MOST IMPORTANT THING.
     
  25. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    you have a very valid point. Something needs to be done to keep up with throwers though. Being hit 8 out of 10 swings when capped out on dci, 120 skill, and hld proof is just silly.
     
  26. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    A base damage increase is not all that is needed. Sure it would be nicer, but just because a war hammer would hit for 30, doesn't mean its worth using now. Its still big slow and makes it so you cant use potions.
     
  27. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    2 tile range is definently not what should be done, Base damage +4-5 on a Weapon would make it hit a great deal more than 30, it would hit a person in ALL 70s for a minimium of 40 (depending on the weapon) if they have tactics + anatomy, and a decent amount of dmg inc from items. the price to pay, of hitting that hard, would be no pots unless you switch weapons.. not a big deal as weapon switching is fast.

    ^^ with that said Cap Armor ignore for melee at 45. make melee truely feared, yet Throwing & Archery can still compete with em.

    regarding the swingspeed, there are plenty of items which increase Swing Speed, Dex, or Stamina , if a bow can shoot 1.25 seconds, Any 2h melee weapon can swing at cap too, it depends on how you work your armor siut, + a base damage increase would make Reflect physical damage even more useful for anyone who uses that.

    Anyone that remembers the pre-patch Talon Bite Axe, would say it was OP, what is the reason it was OP? Because there was no hardcap to DEX, it wasnt the damage, it was the .5-.6 second healing of bandages on yourself, when you had 210+ Dex on your siut.

    it's the balance that's important



    Mages on the other hand, would have to adapt as they usually do, (Field spells & Teleport) are the reason mages will Always be good, not to mention the fact they can't miss.

    The Idea is not only to get these useless 2handed weapons used, But to get them to compete with all the massively overpowered RANGED weapons currently in game, also this change would make it closer to how it used to be as well, for those who remember LJ dexers getting 2 hit kills, it would more likely be 3 hit kills instead
     
  28. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Some problems are SSI, swing as you run, and bushido/parry. Two-tile would be perfect in 1999, when a halberd was slow and that was okay because it had high base damage. Now any two-hand wep can be cranked up.

    While not being able to use pots is a disadvantage, the DPS of an ornate axe, for example, would create situations worse than moving shot archers, and at the expense of no mana. You also have to consider whirlwind and other area effects having double the range. Of course, they could reduce the damage of a two-tile hit, like how throwing is/was weighted. Then again...something remotely like throwing might not be the best idea to implement until they get around to a second balance check, post-Shame loot.

    I think the idea of two-tile makes logical sense, and I think it would be cool, I just don't think the idea promotes balance. If the problem with two-hand weapons is you can't use pots, then what you need to ask yourself is why do people use pots. The only counter I can provide is if two-handed weapons provided a chance at extra defense. If nothing more, it should be nearly impossible, if not impossible, for a one handed weapon wielder to disarm a two handed weapon wielder. I would look at defensive-minded ideas rather than offensive minded ideas--like adding an arbitrary stun, base damage increase, or things like that--since the lack of pots suggests a need for better defense.
     
  29. icm420

    icm420 Seasoned Veteran
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    I think potions need to be changed. IF you are an alchemist or have some other skill that allows you to create/use/enchance potions then you can use them. Otherwise they shouldn't be allowed. Poison was nerfed for years because of potions, stamina is not an issue because of potions and heal pots allow people to run away very quickly and heal without stopping. I know they addressed poison issues recently that was nice, and not so nice.., but still they did address that. I think it's a disgrace that I can run 10 dex on all my mages and have no issues at all. Potions are the biggest crutch available in this game. I love that it allows me to fight outnumbered, but it really does make pvp dependant on them. I can't go to fel without refresh pots, 10 dex is all I run but I always have the red pots, no one loots empty bottles, regs or an alch tool so worst case I just make new potions if I should die. Also the stat buffs. With 50 EP you get a free 60 or so stat points (30 str/dex per potion). That translates to 60 mana since those are points you are not allocating to str/dex. This to me screams abuse, you get 60 free stats, can't be poisoned (sorta..), get a large healing bonus and keep your stamina very high. Whether people know it or not stamina is a huge deal for pvp, it makes you swing faster of course but the higher your stamina the less you get hit also. Perhaps an occasional negative effect should be given for using a potion without skill, it would make sense to me.. do you know what this weird white liquid is... well lets find out..ahh it burns! (lolololol)

    The only 2 handed weapon anyone uses is the no dachi for obvious reasons. I used to use a war hammer for pvm, but it was a 40 swing speed invasion weapon and it was so fast it should be illegal. However from a macer's point of view the ONLY whirlwind weapon is 2 handed so that is 'forced' upon you. I don't think i've ever died to anyone with a 2 handed weapon.. not counting bows since you can chug with them.

    Point is I don't think upgrading 2 handed weapons would fix anything.. I would like to see them fixed and used again but I believe as long as potions are as abusable as they are currently no one will use 2 handed weapons even with a 2-3 tile range, extra special or w/e.

    I play on a free shard currently and a friendly gm I know asked me to try out a mage weapon he created, it has a -20 damage reduction but has a range of 5 tiles. It's an interesting idea and while I am not sure if it will be put into the game it makes certain items/abilities worthwhile. There is an 840 skill cap or something, so I can do a necro mage with fencing, etc. Why would you use a mage weapon when you can use a war fork? The mage weapon has a range of 5 tiles.. so I have been considering taking fencing off and putting scribe on. It's just about options I suppose.

    I remember posting a few months ago about how I was pissed off that mysticism was the "forced" mage route. They fixed that by boosting SDI and revamping curses/apples. Someone posted saying well you can use them but they arn't the "power" temp. This is such a simple yet powerful statment.. as long as something is strong we will use it.. people want to win.. if something is not strong it won't be used, and a prime example is 2 handed- weapons. Titans hammer was strong for awhile because you could wither and whirlwind at the same time, creating a massive area effect choke point holder. They nerfed this and who has used a titans hammer since? There has to be a good reason to use the 2 handed weapons or no one will.

    Sorry for the ramble, love your ideas tho cetric, and I 100% agree that if you punch someone with a platemail glove it's gonna leave a mark.
     
  30. Mirt

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    Then in this case add a second attack. I would say that 2 handers should do more damage. That is logical and it would make them more useful. If that means we have to reduce the pvp damage of one handed weapons so be it. Using a two hander should be a trade off. The most logical trade off is more damage for using two hands and a slower speed. If they can't do that maybe they should make it more likely for a two hander to take much more stamina or even have a bonus to HLA or HLD. Or it could damage armor like the old maces did.
     
  31. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    What they should probably do is create a sweet spot and then add a range of damage so if a pole reaches 3 tiles and you're in the sweet spot, on that 3rd tile there is a hit chance increase and a possible damage spike.

    If you are on the 2nd tile, there is a hit chance deduction and if the target is 1 tile, it becomes difficult to hit the target.

    If it's a 2 tile weapon, then the sweet spot should be 2 tiles and the same should be done with a bow and even mage spells. If mage spells are actually thrown then you would think there would be a chance of missing. Again, a sweet spot could be added and different spells could heat seek where others would miss causing area attacks to be more desirable.

    The point is, in any combat situation you have to understand whether it works as far as balance or any other concept, the reality is that it is going to come down to numbers and like it or not numbers are exact.

    These weapons are broken. The weight of a weapon and the swing from the strength of the character should be the swing speed. The range should be the length or ability of volicity. It should be more accurate from a player's perspective, not strictly based on an items property.
     
  32. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Oh boy, now you are getting into what they did with throwing, which is on occasion pretty unclear.
     
  33. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    2 handed weapons already are inherently better than one handed weapons with a better damage to swing speed ratio, it is the players choice that the use one handed weapons and use potions.

    A change is not necessary
     
  34. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    that may be true in pvm but definitely not in pvp, especially with the damage from melee weapon specials and criticals capped at 35 no matter the weapon. (I crit 35 with a hally or....35 with a kryss....hmmm.what to choose....)
     
  35. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Which imo removing the cap, or making the cap on Ai/bushido crits higher for Melee Only, and bumping up base damage on 2h melee weapons, survivability is already too good, this is why nearly no one pvps alone anymore.

    It just doesn't make any sense why all ranged weapons (except, Repeating xbow, magical short bow, and the boomerang) hits harder than pretty much EVERY 2handed weapon, yet its still pretty easy to reach the 35 dmg crits with these weapons.


    there just isn't the uniqueness characters had in pvp back in the day
    there was a great variety in templates to choose from,
    It was honestly, the tactics change that ruined this, everyone now plays Identical templates, mag's still have a decent variety of templates that are good and can compete with each other, but dexers either have archery, or they're horrible, they don't hit hard enough in pvp atleast. (I usually play a necro-mage btw, if that amounts to anything). all melee only dexers have nearly a 0% chance to beat a good mage. and this shouldn't be
     
  36. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    As a general rule most 2-handers have higher base damage and lower speed than do 1-handers.

    Which is how it should be.

    In PvM at least, though, all these swing speed items have created a kind of imbalance where even really high-damage 2-handers, the ornate axe comes to mind, can be swung as fast as a katana.

    Not as much of an issue in PvP, which is generally speaking less about the damage over time and more about specials.

    -Galen's player
     
  37. Mirt

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    I believe we are primarily looking at this from a pvp perspective. That being said you need to have high stamina and high swing speed for a high damage 2 hander and thats in the same place that you would add your damage increase so in pvp I actually think that they even out. For me picking a pvm weapon is about specials more then it is anything else. (well specials and swing speed)
     
  38. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    One thing that's most important is looking at this in both Pvm & Pvp aspects.

    If some kind of balance isn't added for two handed melee weapons they will pretty much never be used.

    Regardless PvM/PvP, most are similar when it comes to what weapons are chosen. ALL of them are chosen because of specs, unless of course you Want to use crushing blow- (which doesn't stack with enemy of one OR honor, OR a slayer propertie.... so it takes mana for damage of an auto-attack... Useless..) most specials are useless especially if all the dungeon revamps are going to have mobs with resists like in shame... AI is the ONLY good special to use. and even previous to this revamp. the weapons used were the same...

    Melee Weapons include...
    Pvm = Whirlwind - AI
    Pvp = Dismount - Disarm - Bleed - AI - infectious strike (only because of how good poisoning is now) - and most importantly the ability to chug pots. (I didn't count nerve strike or Riding Swipe because they require bushido.)

    I've thought of two ways to make two handed weapons, competitive with one handed weapons. without making two handers being the Only weapons used...

    Add a 3rd special attack (chosen by the player), to all 2-handed melee weapons could be obtained through a quest depending on weapon skill (Very similar to how the bard mastery was implemented)

    Example, someone using a war hammer, would have Whirlwind & Crushing blow, they could then take another special (already in-game) such as Mortal strike, and beable to use it in addition to the two on the weapon by default.

    Surely some restrictions would apply, like Infectious Strike should only beable to be used with weapons that can currently be poisoned and possibly the bushido & ninjitsu required special attacks on weapons as well (unless you have the required skills?).

    I was thinking about this, while reading some posts in the "Metal Armor" thread, about ways to make non-medable armor have a reason to be used again.

    Metal types could add a +1 to +4 base damage, depending on which metal is used, in addition to what they currently do.

    This is where the ability to chug pots gets balanced with the damage output of 2 handed weapons.

    *** For two handed melee weapons Only *** In addition to what these metal types Currently add from crafting & enhancing.

    Dull Copper +1 Base dmg
    Shadow Iron - Copper +2 Base damage
    Bronze - Gold +3 Base dmg
    Agapite - Verite - Valorite +4 base damage.
    Exceptional from 100-120 BS +1 additional base damage
    (this will give crafters something that can only be obtained through crafting.)

    If you enhanced 1 handed weapons they would get no damage increase. but the current effects would remain untouched. (this goes for ALL 1 handed melee & ranged weapons)
     
  39. SixUnder

    SixUnder Legendary Assassin
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    I carry a spear and pike all the time. Cause i like the combos with them, anyhow it be nice if you were able to do better things because of the limitations you put yourself in by carrying them.
     
  40. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    I see the 2 tile range thing being great for AoE damage in pvm.
    so in a sense, you'd beable to mow down more spawn at a time with a hally,
    you could use a fast one hander for the tougher-harder hitting mobs. sounds fair for PvMers imo

    But in PvP, Imo it would be extremely overpowered (depending on which weapon, assuming not ALL 2 handers get a 2 tile range...)

    Disarm weapon +2 tile range, its Very easy to stay within 2 tiles of someone while chasing. this would be Almost the same as Running shot, but with 0 mana cost & 100% chance to hit (while target is disarmed) in pvp.