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2D vs. KR Client

Discussion in 'UO Spiels N Rants' started by Guest, Mar 2, 2008.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Is it just me or is this a pointless debate? It doesn't matter if your playing the 2D client or the KR client, your still playing in the same old "2D Overview Mode".

    The problem with KR is simply this:
    1. The upgraded graphics were done by a 1st year Art Student.
    2. The client is so buggy it needs a TON of polish.

    Basically the client was just not up to expectation. Not so much because players were expecting EQ or WoW graphics, but because the graphics that were provided were kind of a let down from what could of been accomplished within 2D.

    EA and the Dev's need to make up their minds. And if they want to take up the banner for a 3D graphically astounding video game, they need to restart work on UX:Odyssey. Otherwise, hire a few TALENTED artists to continually brush up the 2D graphics every couple of years and wait for the day when you can launch UXO.
     
  2. Dean478

    Dean478 Seasoned Veteran
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    <blockquote><hr>

    "2D Overview Mode".

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Cartoons are still using that same "2D mode". It's called art direction. There is nothing primitive about an isometric perspective.

    <blockquote><hr>


    1. The upgraded graphics were done by a 1st year Art Student.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This is a harsh comment. You can't even come up with a constructive and intelligent reason as to why it compares to a 1st year art student. Why don't you like it? Is it the art direction? The art quality?

    <blockquote><hr>


    2. The client is so buggy it needs a TON of polish.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Bugs? I've had no issues. Care to share them incase it's just you?

    <blockquote><hr>


    Basically the client was just not up to expectation. Not so much because players were expecting EQ or WoW graphics, but because the graphics that were provided were kind of a let down from what could of been accomplished within 2D.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    EQ or WoW? Why would they expect that? WoW is a third-person perspective and EQ is a first person perspective. What you're saying is "players are dissappointed with their watermelon because they expected an apple or orange".

    <blockquote><hr>


    EA and the Dev's need to make up their minds.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Make up their minds about what? They wanted to make a graphical overhaul and they've done so.

    <blockquote><hr>


    And if they want to take up the banner for a 3D graphically astounding video game, they need to restart work on UX:Odyssey.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No thanks. A game without the avatar, Lord British and any key characters is not an Ultima. The story behind that game and its setting is the biggest farce for an Ultima. It has NOTHING todo with Ultima except name.

    The best choice is to take the Ultima Wordls Online: Origin goals and create a modern engine to cater for it. You have your setting. It's true to Ultima (Lord British himself devised this) and it even has some novels to accompany the lore.
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Cartoons are still using that same "2D mode". It's called art direction. There is nothing primitive about an isometric perspective.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There's nothing wrong with the 2D overview mode, I like it! I'm just saying there really is no difference. It's the same perspective with "upgraded" graphics. - Which begs the question, why make Stygian Abyss KR only? It makes no sense to leave out a segment of the population (those who have not adopted KR) simply because you want them to use a graphical client they do not like, when both clients are so similar. (i.e. nothing groundbreaking was done to make KR stand out above the original client)

    <blockquote><hr>

    This is a harsh comment. You can't even come up with a constructive and intelligent reason as to why it compares to a 1st year art student. Why don't you like it? Is it the art direction? The art quality?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It is the quality! Pure and simple, it's the quality. Trees, boats, docks, spell effects, etc etc all pale in comparison to other similar 2D games. For a major reality check, check out the screenshots of Lineage: http://lineage.com/

    <blockquote><hr>

    Bugs? I've had no issues. Care to share them incase it's just you?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No problem. Go to this thread, see first 20 posts for myriads of bugs/problems using KR: http://boards.stratics.com/php-bin/uo/postlist.php?Cat=1&amp;Board=kingdreborn

    <blockquote><hr>

    EQ or WoW? Why would they expect that? WoW is a third-person perspective and EQ is a first person perspective. What you're saying is "players are dissappointed with their watermelon because they expected an apple or orange".

    [/ QUOTE ]

    What I was saying is that most UO players have low expectations for new content and expansion material after years of let downs! And even with the bar set so low, KR came in even below those in many ways.

    <blockquote><hr>

    Make up their minds about what? They wanted to make a graphical overhaul and they've done so.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes they did make a graphical overhaul. The value of which is under intense scrutiny in this thread and many others.

    <blockquote><hr>

    No thanks. A game without the avatar, Lord British and any key characters is not an Ultima. The story behind that game and its setting is the biggest farce for an Ultima. It has NOTHING todo with Ultima except name.
    The best choice is to take the Ultima Wordls Online: Origin goals and create a modern engine to cater for it. You have your setting. It's true to Ultima (Lord British himself devised this) and it even has some novels to accompany the lore.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    UXO was far from finalized... But really I'm just saying if they want some type of awesome graphical experience they need to begin on a new product. Not try to revamp the 2D UO client.
     
  4. Dean478

    Dean478 Seasoned Veteran
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    <blockquote><hr>


    There's nothing wrong with the 2D overview mode, I like it! I'm just saying there really is no difference. It's the same perspective with "upgraded" graphics. - Which begs the question, why make Stygian Abyss KR only? It makes no sense to leave out a segment of the population (those who have not adopted KR) simply because you want them to use a graphical client they do not like, when both clients are so similar. (i.e. nothing groundbreaking was done to make KR stand out above the original client)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The reason is to do away with aclient that doesn't feature a modern interface and updated graphics. The main issue is to attract new mainstream players. Problem is they can't appeal to both. Hence needing a sequel.

    UO has proven for the past few years that it's still worth investing. So a sequel has no chance of destroying UO. As EA believed 6-7 years ago. Everquest 2 and Lineage 2 have proven this.

    Ultima Online is about living a virtual life in Britannia. Ultima Online 2 was going to be about living a virtual life in Sosaria which has suffered a cataclysm resulting in the past (Sosaria) the present (Britannia) and the future all merging into one setting. It'd have no chance of destroying UO as it's a different setting. Some people will want to venture in the world they enjoyed in the Ultima series (UO). Some will want to see how the story of Ultima has progressed (UO2). Personally I might play both.

    Garriott and his team were ALWAYS explaining things through fiction. They even had fiction to explain such a simple metagame issue as the need for more than one server/world.

    <blockquote><hr>


    It is the quality! Pure and simple, it's the quality. Trees, boats, docks, spell effects, etc etc all pale in comparison to other similar 2D games.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    KR is well above Lineage. Especially in the animation department. Lineage is a powerpoint slide show in comparison to KR's animation detail.

    <blockquote><hr>


    No problem. Go to this thread, see first 20 posts for myriads of bugs/problems using KR: http://boards.stratics.com/php-bin/uo/postlist.php?Cat=1&amp;Board=kingdreborn

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Fair enough. Unfortunately UO has suffered poor support for a very long time. I left in 2002, came back in 2007 and it's even worse.




    <blockquote><hr>


    Yes they did make a graphical overhaul. The value of which is under intense scrutiny in this thread and many others.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yep I agree. THey did make a decision though and personally I think it was a decent effort, better saved for a sequel. The new Hildebrant artwork is fantastic. Such an attractive piece, would have looked good advertising a sequel.

    <blockquote><hr>


    UXO was far from finalized... But really I'm just saying if they want some type of awesome graphical experience they need to begin on a new product. Not try to revamp the 2D UO client.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yep I agree. Just not with UXO. The story and setting are very poor. The avatar/guardian saga was wrapped up properly by Garriott. Why revive it? It's stupid. It shows a very strong lack of creativity.

    UO2 however had agoot setting. It's true to Ultima as Garriott designed it, it can also be tailored in anyway without influence from the current series and it's set in a futuristic/unique time span. So stupid additions such as ninjas, Lord Blackthorn dying, Lord Blackthorn's Revenge (which is recycled UO2), ELVES (wtf were they thinking) can all be rectified.
     
  5. Tenrag

    Tenrag Guest

    Good evening...

    Just one comment regarding the KR Graphics ...
    Why does the chars have to be so elongated and skinny with so many
    pointed parts instead of looking more actually 3-dimensional such as
    what I see on my son's computer when he is playing games such as
    Halo and a few others..? The chars actually look like people, not long
    stretched out cartoons with pointy parts all over...

    If that can be fixed, perhaps someone might like to bring back the
    original artwork for the golem from 10 years ago.. awsome and much
    more attractive then those weird clumps of things we have today...

    But, its still a great place to relax and have fun... 10 Years and I am
    still in there for more...

    Cheers..
     
  6. paladin33

    paladin33 Guest

    For me Kr is Very nice, i don't understand why all players say lot of thing bad of it.

    That true, KR is buggued! like lot of beta version...
    But i have already write code source and i don't want imagine how dev have hardly work for make KR! This game have been work on the old version 2d! That why kr is totaly unstable at this moment. For me it's totaly normal.

    Kr on my computer is not slow, it's only buggued.


    Graphicaly, that remenber me the oldie game ultima 7 serpent isle.
    The caracters, stuffs and armor look very realistic on paperdoll and i love it!

    I wish only, dev will continue their job for resolve all problems for attrac players on this version of 3d client.

    Why 3D ?

    I will anwers you! in 3d caracters you create 3d model and you adding texture. You create all move with the 3d programme.

    In 2D, you must draw to the hand all movement one by one! imagine 100 picture for only one creature... And how many creatures, npc ad other animed items you've got in ultima online?
    Finally, that cost too much time for create new update ultima 2d.

    So, the choice is simple.

    Time is money for this factory of video game, EA.

    I think many players must try to think to that before ultima disapear for always from the offical Server with this oldie 2d game. In 10 years, numbers of player have been divided by 4? 5?

    For me, kr is the futur ultima and 2d client is a wall. It's a wall, because the devs who works on 2d client don't work on 3d client. And that take more time, more money.

    I m come back to play to uo only for kr, and if they stop it, i stop to play at uo! Because uo 2d make me sick.
     
  7. Tanduay

    Tanduay Guest

    after 10 years of playing UO 2D I dont want to relearn all the controls required for KR.

    I play UO because it is different from all the other games, with it is old school look.

    like many other players out there, i get motion sick from the 3D/1st person shooter games.

    OU is the only game out there that can be played on an "affordable" (read:eek:ld) computer with a dial-up or DSL connection.

    I will also say that if you dont like OU 2D then find a game you do enjoy. me and my four accounts are doing just fine with 2D. [​IMG]
     
  8. I'd hate it if KR wasn't UO. The overhead perspective, 2D art, the whole 9 yards. Why? Because if I wanted to play EQ I'd play EQ. If I wanted to play WoW I'd play WoW. If I wanted to play a 3D fantasy MMO there are plenty to choose from.


    As far as I'm concerned the OP's just complaining for the sake of complaining or there'd be at least some substance to the topic post. No, this is a rant in the wrong forum.
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    ...

    1. The upgraded graphics were done by a 1st year Art Student.

    Provide SUBSTANTIAL non-opinionated proof of this.

    2. The client is so buggy it needs a TON of polish.

    Agreed which is what MOST of us on the furom are trying to help the devs accomplish.
     
  10. Belmarduk

    Belmarduk Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    ...



    2. The client is so buggy it needs a TON of polish.

    Agreed which is what MOST of us on the furom are trying to help the devs accomplish.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    and

    " KR client: Looks great, great functionality, buggy.<font color="red"> Not supported by EA. "</font>



    And here lies the problem.....
     
  11. Thaledred

    Thaledred Guest

    I hate EA, simply because everytime they pull off the same scenario.


    "devs move to a different location"
    silence on the forums and no updates/fixes
    "devs still move"
    silence on the forums and no updates/fixes
    "devs have to get familiar with the new location"
    silence on the forums and no updates/fixes
    "devs post some nonsense stuff, saying new Team is nice, plans are big and want to improve communication with the community, but the community is still in the dust"
    silence on the forums and no updates/fixes
    silence on the forums and no updates/fixes
    silence on the forums and no updates/fixes
    silence on the forums and no updates/fixes

    4 months later
    project canceled (example Earth&amp;Beyond mmorpg)



    And yes KR is not supported by EA, saying "KR won't be ignored" is like saying "we know it's there but we have no clue about how to fix it".
     
  12. Dean478

    Dean478 Seasoned Veteran
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    <blockquote><hr>


    I hate EA, simply because everytime they pull off the same scenario.


    "devs move to a different location"
    silence on the forums and no updates/fixes
    "devs still move"
    silence on the forums and no updates/fixes
    "devs have to get familiar with the new location"
    silence on the forums and no updates/fixes
    "devs post some nonsense stuff, saying new Team is nice, plans are big and want to improve communication with the community, but the community is still in the dust"
    silence on the forums and no updates/fixes
    silence on the forums and no updates/fixes
    silence on the forums and no updates/fixes
    silence on the forums and no updates/fixes

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That's just exageration.

    <blockquote><hr>


    4 months later
    project canceled (example Earth&amp;Beyond mmorpg)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Earth and Beyond was cancelled in a pretty dark history of EA. It was a time when EA was trying to aquire as many brands as it could and turn them into EA's brands. It stuffed up creative development, ruined sagas and a lot of MMOs were cancelled because EA still wasn't convinced it was a positive venture.

    E&amp;B was hardly quiet when it was cancelled. The other projects that were cancelled (Wing Commander Online, Harry Potter Online) were quiet. They were in concept stages.

    Ultima Online 2 was booming with news when it was cancelled. UO was receiving a graphical update (which wasn't as successful as KR) it was growing and it's creator was in the works of a ground breaking sequel.

    You can bet EA has realised its mistakes. I remember a key member admitting their failure in their handling of Bullfrog and Origin Systems, among others, and we can see the truth in this by looking at Maxis. EA approached Maxis with a very hands off approach and look where it's creations are now. I believe The Sims franchise has surpased 82 million units sold. Meanwhile Wing Commander and Ultima are niches.

    Either way things can only go up from this point. The stereotypical EA hating goes over there with the Micro$oft bull crap.
     
  13. Thaledred

    Thaledred Guest

    if everything is so cool now, why do i see the same scenario here with UO ?
     
  14. <blockquote><hr>


    if everything is so cool now, why do i see the same scenario here with UO ?

    [/ QUOTE ]Explain, or was this reply made in irrelevance? Again, complaining for the sake of complaining or your reply wouldn't have been so vague.
     
  15. Thaledred

    Thaledred Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    Explain, or was this reply made in irrelevance? Again, complaining for the sake of complaining or your reply wouldn't have been so vague.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    If i need to explain the current state of UO then i have no idea where you have been the past 4 - 6 months.
     
  16. Masuri

    Masuri Seasoned Veteran
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    rtlfc

    This KR subforum is one of the nicest havens on all of Stratics. The UHall has seen a rash of these sorts of "KR SUCKS AND SO DOES YOUR MOM" threads this week, did we need to drag mindless (and oft baseless) bashing into the one forum where people are doing something constructive with and about KR?

    An objective review of the art shows that the KR art is qualitatively better if for no other reason than it possesses actual textures. Let us not pretend 2D doesn't have its share of independently awful art (try looking at the Tokuno and Elf clothing and furniture in 2D for example; the 2D stuff has the same sort of skewy perspective occasionally present in KR pieces.) This is an issue of EA having poor quality control over UO as a whole, not a problem specific to KR. Similarly: I have a very nice dual core toy running vista, ftr. 2D runs shockingly poorly; KR runs much better by comparison. I have as many crashes in 2D as in KR, and almost as many bugs. I repeat: this is an issue of EA having poor quality control over UO as a whole, not a problem specific to KR.

    Neither EQ nor WoW looks anything like KR in art style or orientation; KR has a great deal more in common with other isometric games like Diablo, Dungeon Siege, and Titan Quest. Are the people who say that KR looks poor, conflating art design with interface design? I really scratch my head at the repeat suggestions that common interface elements such as skill bars and nameplates are KR's attempts to be more like WoW. Are UO die-hards so isolated that they don't know that this sort of interface is standard in every MMO and every RPG and every adventure/action game and some FPSes too for the last fifteen or more years, with the sole and sad exception of UO? Even U9 had a similar UI.

    I would have liked to play UX:O in addition to everything else! I don't think it would've been any less 'Ultima' than UO was and is, frankly, and it would have actually implemented a virtue system from the beginning and in an integrated fashion that philosophically, is much more interesting than a lot of the tripe floating around gaming today. But UX:O has nothing to do with KR, as it was canceled nigh on four years ago, before Tokuno launched, even, and years before KR was in anyone's mind.
     
  17. xxEvolusxx

    xxEvolusxx Guest

    Everything is just personal preference. When my computer was getting fixed I had to play 2D on my dinosaur.

    Anyways, I thought the 2D looked horrible, and the user interface was awful.

    Maybe thats because I've only played KR, and I've only played MMORPGS with that type of interface.

    So yeah, regardless of what I typed above I will continue to enjoy KR, and some will continue to enjoy 2D
     
  18. maximus3

    maximus3 Guest

    " KR client: Looks great, great functionality, buggy. Not supported by EA. " really thats the problem, hmm i dont know why, but the old 3d client would have been better support than the new one? why the hell have they introduced the new one, if they dindt support it? and its a clear EA Code not a code buought somewhere, its EA's work, why they are not supporting it, its not understandable.
     
  19. Dean478

    Dean478 Seasoned Veteran
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    <blockquote><hr>


    If i need to explain the current state of UO then i have no idea where you have been the past 4 - 6 months.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It's not. Again you are exagerating.

    Ultima is now owned by EA Mythic. Just like Maxis, Mythic is able to operate on its own with EA taking a very hands-off approach. The only reason the game is a little quiet is because it had to shift to Mythic's current location. That's completely irrelevant. It'd be no different to when Origin moved to Austin (they didn't start there you know).

    Now that they've moved, things are starting to fire up. We've got a talkative live team who are providing in-game events (the only true value for MMO fees these days).

    Any current issues in the game have absolutely nothing todo with EA. If somethign is wrong, it's the development team (Mythic).

    Look at Warhammer Online. That game was scheduled for release a year or so ago now. Just recently they delaye the game AGAIN. Did you see EA forcing it out anyway like they did with Ultima IX? No. Spore was delayed, did they force it out? No. EA know that their investment will pay off if they let the creative developers BE creative.
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Your argument would hold more water,

    if it was true.

    OSI was founded/started in Austin, Texas while I dislike wikipedia it is correct:

    Origin Systems, Inc. (sometimes abbreviated as OSI) was a computer game developer based in Austin, Texas that was active from 1983 to 2004. It is most famous for the Ultima, Wing Commander, and Crusader game series'.

    History
    The company was founded in 1983 by brothers Robert and Richard Garriott, their father Owen and Chuck Bueche after Richard had terminated his contract with Sierra On-Line to publish the third part in Richard's Ultima series, Ultima III: Exodus.

    In September 1992, Electronic Arts acquired the company.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    We the playing community were assured that OSI would remain an independent firm with in the greater EA umbrella.

    it was during this time that several sequels/new games were planned and cancelled.

    Eventually OSI was phased out as an independent firm and all personell were given the choice to move to EAstudios in Redwood, California (also know as EARS) or find new employment.

    Again the community was assured that this would benefit the UO commmunity by combining resources (both financial and creative) in one place and that the future of UO was bright.

    then EA bought Mythic Entertainment in 2006, we the UO community were assured that UO and DAoC dev teams would be separate teams and that UO still has a bright future.

    then once again (late 2007/early 2008) the entire UO team was moved from EAstudios in Redwood, California to the EAMythic studio in Fairfax, Virginia
    (basically the original studio of Mythic Entertainment) once again we the community were told that this was to combine resources (both financial and creative) in one studio and that dev teams would remain separate. We have also been assured that EAMythic would remain separate from the greater EA.

    Now it appears to the community, because of EAMythics lack of communication, that the UO dev team is the smallest it has ever been, and that all resources have been bent to the perceived WoW killer (Warhammer Online).

    Personally based on EAs track record, it would not surprise me, if in a few more years, if UO is still running that once again the dev team will be moved again and the "independent" EAMythic studio will be disbanded.

    but believe what you wish.
     
  21. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    An objective review of the art shows that the KR art is qualitatively better if for no other reason than it possesses actual textures.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    That is the... worst example ever...

    Actually having textures over having carefully drawn and detailed artwork is in no way shape or form 'qualitativly better'. It's actually worse due to the general lack of detail &amp; polygons that comes with it.

    It's different yes, but quality is relative, the technology however still in general provides a lesser quality result. Technical limitation.

    <blockquote><hr>


    Let us not pretend 2D doesn't have its share of independently awful art (try looking at the Tokuno and Elf clothing and furniture in 2D for example; the 2D stuff has the same sort of skewy perspective occasionally present in KR pieces.)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This is a yes, the perspective issues is a complete lack of attention to detail. However if you recall, the majority of really poor quality artwork was simply sprited renditions of previous 3D renders of the same monster. Because there was no attention to detail, the textures used were simply horrible

    I only mention it because it's a perfect opposite of your quality point...

    ~Rai
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    WHAT? Harry Potter Online was canceled?!?! *tear* [​IMG] I was hoping to see how they would actually pull that off!

    Hmm... On a side note... I like the KR client, the graphics aren't 3d like WoW and EQ but they're unique, and still feel like the 2d client to me. Also, no offense, but that 1st year art students work looks 100x better than the antiquated 2d stuff. I love the Cu/Hiryu look over the News Paper chicken/dog look of the 2d client.

    Sorry, but people should really just accept change. The KR client is probably not supported by EA because too many people are whiners and won't use it. [​IMG]

    More people using it would probably get things fixed faster... well, faster is a relative term though... haha
     
  23. Belmarduk

    Belmarduk Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Sorry, but people should really just accept change. The KR client is probably not supported by EA because too many people are whiners and won't use it. [​IMG]


    [/ QUOTE ]
    Yes and No
    Many people WOULD use it if it were less buggy and certain graphic-issues were fixed AND it would run on more machines.(Not talking about old machines - KR doesnt run on a mid-level machine proply with a radeon graka...)
    This is a viscious circle.
    Giving up now will only cause another plummet of subscribers....
    How many people (like myself) have just been hanging on and waiting and hoping that they get that damned client fixed soon? Now there is no point in waiting anymore...
     
  24. Masuri

    Masuri Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    <blockquote><hr>

    snip

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That is... the worst refutation ever. You misquoted me (I did not misspell qualitatively). You ignored the idiomatic phrase 'if for no other reason' and incorrectly assumed there were in fact no other reasons, setting up a nice but tired strawman to pick on. You incorrectly and illogically conflate 2D's clarity (achieved through primitive graphical simplicity) with detail (which it does not possess, being solid textureless low-bit color) and later muddle the whole issue by leaping from "graphical detail" to "attention to detail" which sets up a false dichotomy; specifically, the implication that because EA was lazy with KR, 2D is necessarily superior to it. You somewhat indefensibly state that KR lacks detail (it does not on an appropriately modern computer), and then strangely reference polygons, suggesting that KR's 3D polygons degrade detail, contrary to modeling logic (2D, of course, is rendered with primitive, flat, patternless, depthless sprites which are easily trumped by even a poor texture applied to a 3D model). You suggest that perspective issues are due to a lack of attention to detail, when in fact they are the result of too many artists paying too much attention to their individual detail work with no overseer comparing all of them together in a general fashion. And finally, the last sentence, which purports to refute my argument, does so only by misrepresenting the graphics of 2D - namely, the suggestion that 2D's occasional poor grasp on perspective is due to poor texture ports from 3D when in fact that makes no sense, and worse still, they have no textures at all.

    Blah blah. Different tack: It is perfectly possible to recognize that the Mona Lisa is qualitatively better than cave paintings in style and skillfulness, while still preferring the cave paintings and believing them to possess historical and artistic value. But arguing that stick figures are objectively better than da Vinci's masterpieces outside of some creative post-modern philosophy paper, and people just start rolling their eyes - particularly when we all know that for most of those making this argument in this case, it's really about an unwillingness to let go of the old client, rather than the pursuit of academic artistic relativism, or better yet, the pursuit of what's best for the future of UO.
     
  25. Thaledred

    Thaledred Guest

    Warsong of LS basically said what i was trying to say, he is right with all points.
     
  26. Prudentis

    Prudentis Guest

    Ding, ding, ding

    Masuri wins!

    And:
    <blockquote><hr>


    after 10 years of playing UO 2D I dont want to relearn all the controls required for KR.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    That person explains clearly the whole problem with KR vs. legacy

    And Masuri's metaphor about cave paintings and Mona Lisa is the same one I used in another thread with my daughter's paintings and a Monet.
    While I love my daughters drawings (she is 5) I do see the qualitative superiority of Monet's Work.
     
  27. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Ding, ding, ding

    Masuri wins!

    And:
    <blockquote><hr>


    after 10 years of playing UO 2D I dont want to relearn all the controls required for KR.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    That person explains clearly the whole problem with KR vs. legacy

    And Masuri's metaphor about cave paintings and Mona Lisa is the same one I used in another thread with my daughter's paintings and a Monet.
    While I love my daughters drawings (she is 5) I do see the qualitative superiority of Monet's Work.

    [/ QUOTE ]Except... The control of KR pretty closely resemble the controls of just about every modern MMO...
    So, if/when 2D is phased out, unless you're going to qui MMOs altogether, you'll be learning the interface in one way/shape/form
     
  28. Dean478

    Dean478 Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
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    <blockquote><hr>


    after 10 years of playing UO 2D I dont want to relearn all the controls required for KR.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Are you serious?.....

    There is a reason for this. MMMOs have a new interface that heavily resembles this. It's one of the few ways to introduce new players to a very old game.

    You can't relearn a few basic controls? I just can't believe this statement. So when 3D games came out did you refuse them because you didn't want to adopt a mouse and step away from the tile based graphics of the 80's?

    I cannot wait for 2D to be phased out completely. I don't care if we leave fans behind anymore. The caveman example was almost there. Except in this case it's like civilisation bringing paint brushes, technology and creativity to neanderthals and the neanderthals rejecting it because they prefer using their hands on cave walls.

    It's funny people blame EA. Ultima Online 2 was cancelled for the same reasons people are quoting here. People are trying to alienate themselves from EA but they are so alike anyway! EA cancelled the game because they were worried it'd compete with UO and possibly replace it. Now here we are 7 years later and now the game's growth is screaming for progression of some sort.

    Personally in retrospect, I love Kingdom Reborn, but I think Kingdom Reborn should have been a sequel. That way those who are screaming for 2D can stay there in the past where it belongs.

    Harsh I know, but how else are you supposed to discuss something where people blame everyone else but themselves?
     
  29. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Do you want to play the game or do you want to make a fashion statement? 2D is just fine. So let us play our 2D and all of you that want the "Paris Hilton" look, go for it. Some of us want to play the game and some of you are here for fashion statements. So leave us "2Ders" to our game and you "Paris Hiltons" can compare your little chihuahua sweaters and hats all you want! Oh! Don't forget the bag you carry your dog in! Kiss. Kiss. That's so hot! BARF!!!
     
  30. Dean478

    Dean478 Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
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    <blockquote><hr>

    Do you want to play the game or do you want to make a fashion statement? 2D is just fine. So let us play our 2D and all of you that want the "Paris Hilton" look, go for it. Some of us want to play the game and some of you are here for fashion statements. So leave us "2Ders" to our game and you "Paris Hiltons" can compare your little chihuahua sweaters and hats all you want! Oh! Don't forget the bag you carry your dog in! Kiss. Kiss. That's so hot! BARF!!!

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Are you in the right topic?
     
  31. Tanduay

    Tanduay Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>


    after 10 years of playing UO 2D I dont want to relearn all the controls required for KR.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Are you serious?.....

    There is a reason for this. MMMOs have a new interface that heavily resembles this. It's one of the few ways to introduce new players to a very old game.

    You can't relearn a few basic controls? I just can't believe this statement. So when 3D games came out did you refuse them because you didn't want to adopt a mouse and step away from the tile based graphics of the 80's?

    I cannot wait for 2D to be phased out completely. I don't care if we leave fans behind anymore. The caveman example was almost there. Except in this case it's like civilisation bringing paint brushes, technology and creativity to neanderthals and the neanderthals rejecting it because they prefer using their hands on cave walls.

    It's funny people blame EA. Ultima Online 2 was cancelled for the same reasons people are quoting here. People are trying to alienate themselves from EA but they are so alike anyway! EA cancelled the game because they were worried it'd compete with UO and possibly replace it. Now here we are 7 years later and now the game's growth is screaming for progression of some sort.

    Personally in retrospect, I love Kingdom Reborn, but I think Kingdom Reborn should have been a sequel. That way those who are screaming for 2D can stay there in the past where it belongs.

    Harsh I know, but how else are you supposed to discuss something where people blame everyone else but themselves?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Hey I'm NOT a caveman, I'm a paying customer.

    .....besides, what you call progress, I call the **** of UO.
    .....besides, if i have to re-learn everything i might as well start a new game.

    since your being mean and calling me a neanderthal, ill say it again, if you dont like UO the way it is now, GO AWAY and play something else, stop trying to tear apart UO. People like you just jump from game to game anyway. what do care?

    I BET IN A YEAR OR SO YOU'LL BE GONE, BUT YOUR DAMAGE TO UO WILL LINGER!
     
  32. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Hey I'm NOT a caveman, I'm a paying customer.

    .....besides, what you call progress, I call the **** of UO.
    .....besides, if i have to re-learn everything i might as well start a new game.

    since your being mean and calling me a neanderthal, ill say it again, if you dont like UO the way it is now, GO AWAY and play something else, stop trying to tear apart UO. People like you just jump from game to game anyway. what do care?

    I BET IN A YEAR OR SO YOU'LL BE GONE, BUT YOUR DAMAGE TO UO WILL LINGER!

    [/ QUOTE ]A trifle dramatic, wouldn't you say?

    I love the direct interpretation of the cave-paintings comparison.
    Cavemen... Heh!

    Whatever happened to calling the anti-KR folk Luddites?
    It was rather appropriate, in a non-insulting way.
    But, anyway.

    The 2D client is technologically obsolete.
    The KR client is a step in the right direction.

    Although, if you're standing on the White Cliffs of Dover, and want to get to France. A step in the right direction isn't necessarily going to be a good thing.

    The 2D client will choke the development of UO.
    The KR client could well choke the subscriptions of UO.
     
  33. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    The KR client is a step in the right direction.


    [/ QUOTE ]
    Albeit a very small step that fell a million miles short of where it should have.

    End result ... a pointless step.
     
  34. Avalonia

    Avalonia Guest

    I kind of agree. However, I actually kind of like the 2d graphics. Those were the hay day graphics when I actually cared about playing video games...before they dumped game play and fun for graphics. I would rather see them dump more work into UO 2d and just leave it at that then try to support two clients.

    On another note, if they are going to make a 3d game it should start fresh and be a real UO2. A UO2 that had the graphics of WoW and EQ2 but the diversity of UO would most likely have a huge part of the market share.
     
  35. Avalonia

    Avalonia Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    There's nothing wrong with the 2D overview mode, I like it! I'm just saying there really is no difference. It's the same perspective with "upgraded" graphics. - Which begs the question, why make Stygian Abyss KR only? It makes no sense to leave out a segment of the population (those who have not adopted KR) simply because you want them to use a graphical client they do not like, when both clients are so similar. (i.e. nothing groundbreaking was done to make KR stand out above the original client)


    [/ QUOTE ]

    They have a lot of work to do on the KR client before they better even attempt to force people to play it. If they forced me to stop playing 2d I would no longer play UO.

    I simply don't like that you can't use UO Assist with KR and I tried the new macro system in UO:KR and it was a freaking joke. I never did get the crafting gumps to actually make all or make a number...seems bugged to me. Things like that really annoyed me. Also, it was a lack of diversity. In 2d my shadowdancer black paragon chest is actually shadowdancer black...in KR its just a chest void of color...why make different colored chests if you can't see the different colors in KR.

    <blockquote><hr>


    UXO was far from finalized... But really I'm just saying if they want some type of awesome graphical experience they need to begin on a new product. Not try to revamp the 2D UO client.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I totally and utterly agree...I think its gotten down to the point that you stop beating a dead horse and just offer up a client and game that is started fresh. It could still accompany those things we love about UO (diversity, skill based system, best crafting system in the game, different play styles, housing, etc) but be a brand new game. It doesn't hurt to learn from your past mistakes and make something new, but it doesn't help to keep beating a dead horse till everyone is driven from the game. I believe that UO is still the most dynamic game out there in the market and no other game comes close to its diversity. I got tired of dungeon crawl games that consisted of nothing but rushing through the same dungeons over and over again and gave up on games like WoW.
     
  36. Avalonia

    Avalonia Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    2d client: Ugly, but reliable. Supported by EA.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sorry, but NO, UO 2D is far from ugly. The graphics in it are crisp and sweet looking. They are just dated. If you grew up on old games like the original Final Fantasies or my all time favorite games of all time, Shining Force 1 and 2, then you got used to these old school graphics. For some reason, I remember games actually being fun back then. I won't even buy a system today because they stopped making games for the fun aspect and started working on making games graphically appealing...that is a detriment to the gaming industry as far as I am concerned.
     
  37. Avalonia

    Avalonia Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Personally based on EAs track record, it would not surprise me, if in a few more years, if UO is still running that once again the dev team will be moved again and the "independent" EAMythic studio will be disbanded.

    but believe what you wish.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    EA doesn't have the power to disband Mythic. It was in Mythic's sales contract that Mythic would remain a seperate entity from EA. Mythic had a much better contract with EA then OSI did. Part of that could be that the developers of DAoC didn't want to move on to other projects so they didn't dump their current game on the top bidder.
     
  38. Avalonia

    Avalonia Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    Sorry, but people should really just accept change. The KR client is probably not supported by EA because too many people are whiners and won't use it. [​IMG]


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Graphics matter very little to me. KR has some beautiful graphics although some of of them were over done. I won't use it because it has the worst interface I have ever seen. Comparing it to WoW interface is like making a horrible joke. Most of the crafting gumps are broken, you can't use add ons (UOA doesn't even work), and you can't even get decent macros to work...took me forever trying to make a use last + last target macro and I never did figure it out so I just went back to UO2D.
     
  39. Avalonia

    Avalonia Guest

    <blockquote><hr>



    2D to be phased out completely. I don't care if we leave fans behind anymore. The caveman example was almost there. Except in this case it's like civilisation bringing paint brushes, technology and creativity to neanderthals and the neanderthals rejecting it because they prefer using their hands on cave walls.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sorry, I played WoW for a year. I played DAoC for a year. The KR client is nothing like those clients in forms of usability. Its nothing like the 2d client in terms of usability either. Plus, if you phased out 2d for KR I am willing to bet you would phase out more than half the players of UO. The KR client exists now, is susposedly better, and still we have players that have played every new MMORPG on the market with those "awesome" UIs that still perfer 2d. That says to me that KR is filled with issues that players just don't want to chose to deal with and making it the default client and only developing for it is the stupidest idea ever. My computer can run WoW and UO 2d at the same time and easily run KR, but still I chose to run 2d...hmm!

    <blockquote><hr>


    Personally in retrospect, I love Kingdom Reborn, but I think Kingdom Reborn should have been a sequel. That way those who are screaming for 2D can stay there in the past where it belongs.

    Harsh I know, but how else are you supposed to discuss something where people blame everyone else but themselves?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Maybe if it was a sequel they would have bothered to give it actual depth and make the UI gumps actually rival those of other MMORPGs (which I am sorry but they don't). The issue is that UO 2D even with dated graphics just still has more actual depth then they ever bothered to give to KR and that is the biggest issue with KR.
     
  40. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I have 1 (one) question for everyone. How long has 2D survived? Since the beginning of this online game. Every change that "they" have made to the game, there has been only 1 (one) thing that has not changed! 2D! 3D changed 3 (three) times and didn't win out! And now there is KR! And all KR is, is a "legal" way of scripting. If you can't start from the beginning and build your character from scratch then whats the point?
    And it seems that 2D is still the one and only constant in this game.