1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

2D's Future

Discussion in 'UHall' started by imported_Heartseeker, Apr 4, 2008.

  1. We need higher res graphics.

    I use KR mostly, but will switch back to 2D if you give us higher screen resolutions.

    ps. Throw in some of KR options too, like hotbars.

    Then 2D would be better.
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    KR is 2d in higher res. [​IMG]

    KR isn't a 3d client, its the exact same type of system (3d models rendered into 2d sprites) but with 3d effects.
    KR is what you are asking for, so... well... I don't imagine we'll be getting it twice, since the first time went over so swimmingly.
     
  3. GWAR_LS

    GWAR_LS Guest

    Outch Owned
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    psuedo iso 2d 3d ugly crap is what KR is
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    While KR has some nice things I think 10 years of 2D we become picky and stubborn KR just does not cut it
    So UO2 should be next(get rid of everything bad from AoS forward)
    Sorry wishing out aloud
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    While KR has some nice things I think 10 years of 2D we become picky and stubborn KR just does not cut it
    So UO2 should be next(get rid of everything bad from AoS forward)
    Sorry wishing out aloud

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah it wasn't a great idea to begin with trying to update a 10 year old game with just a new coat of paint. They should have know up crotchety players don't take kindly to change, and that if they couldn't knock it out of the park with KR from day one, that it was just going to be a waste of time and effort better spent elsewhere.

    They didn't and as such it was.

    Don't get me wrong, I use KR for some things, it has a lot of great features, but the feel is all off, a lot of the art is..."off" in conception to put it kindly, and It simply doesn't work as well for normal game play as 2d.

    It seem to me that this is the consensus for KR atm (new event designed for 2d says something), and until they figure out what they want to do with it I wouldn't expect any great changes to the client at all. As such expect that SA is gone, and will be chopped up for content as well as possible (see gargs/ridgebacks and whatever other UO2 orphans that now haunt ilsh with their horrifying bad art).

    I could be way off base, but thats how things look to me. Not that that means the game is doomed or anything. They should just forget it and focus on content/repairing old defunct systems and making them fun again.

    I think if KR would have just been its own game, with a world designed for it, rather than trying to smash it into what we currently have, it would have been drastically more successful, given the proper time to do it right of course.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Surely thats what 2d is too :I?

    3d Isometric perspective, 3d coordinate system. But to all extents and purposes its 2d.

    Id be interested to see migration to KR figures. I reckon that most of UOs current subscribers (before KR was released) play UO because it is different from other games.

    Imitation of other games will fail. KR has done nothing, IMO, for UO. It's release is proof of that. Nothing spectacular has happened to the amount of new customers (although I am not the one with figures).

    This is really bad actually. On the one hand you have to continually develop an MMO to give it fresh content and people a reason to play. But then releases like KR havent really seemed to do anything for the game except split the customer base and make client development more hassle (having to develop new content for two, actively used clients - and lets face it, 3dawn wasnt very actively used!). So what incentive is there for EA to fund any further development of UO? Sure theres customers, but I guarantee that had KR not been developed and instead they had worked on something else like another expansion or had funded a proper Interest program, that figures would have stayed the same or had RISEN.

    I say screw stygian abyss and give us paid staff. Local staff to each shard that interact with the community and provide events, support and new player help on a one to one basis. People will do this for free, with training and some legally binding contracts you could make it all proper and probably for less cost than an expansion. Spend the time you would work on an expansion with ironing out all the many bugs and systems in the game that don't work! Example - item ID. USELESS, but could be useFUL. Wouldnt take too long to figure something out. Less time than the development of a new client I think.
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I agree with everything this man says.
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    It's top down 3d, thos arn't spirtes walking on the screen those are 3d models.
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    I use KR for some things, it has a lot of great features, but the feel is all off, a lot of the art is..."off" in conception to put it kindly, and It simply doesn't work as well for normal game play as 2d.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I gave up after the first big patch. No DVD in the shops, too long to download, easier to play 2D.

    Ultimately the one big point you mention is the new coat of paint. I find it an insult to really make a new game in this day and age and consider it competition to other MMOs. They charge the same price, they just release a new client which frankly looks worse than many free to play MMOs. Sorry, to whoever worked on it, I blame whoever told you to do it though.

    Really, it needs to be a full 3d game to justify any sort of upgrade. 3rd person view (or first person) that can be rotated and moved around. How about a whole new game instead? Couple subscriptions with UO? Oh wait, they did this already. I think it was called UXO...
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    It's top down 3d, thos arn't spirtes walking on the screen those are 3d models.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah they are. Check which hand your shield is in when you change direction.
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    A THREE DEE MODEL? I don't play KR but could have fooled me.

    You can have 2d sprites in a 3d engine NP. Google for a game called soldat. Made with a 3d API but all the graphics are 2d.
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Look my friend...


    2d Sprites:

    <font color="red"> REMOVED </font>

    see the what 2d is now?
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Its 3d but 2d me, and it's a bug in the way its being rendered onto the screen most likely. I'm not going to argue about it anymore.

    [​IMG]

    If you can't see this isn't 2d well i'm not going to even bother.
    Every object, every sprite is 3d. That doesn't mean you can't render it all in the same fashion you do in the 2d iso client but it still doesnt change the fact the KR has gone 3d.
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    My knowledge of 3d graphics and games is fairly limited but you can pretty much make an entire 2d game with 3d graphics engine just by texturing some squares and using blending to remove bits you dont want or to make some nice looking graphical effects. The rest is just the camera's position and where it is looking at.

    As new graphics are released, I get bugged more and more by the perspective. For example, look at the giant beetle graphic in it's item form, or various other examples that I can't think of right now but you could say is quite a few of the many new graphics from ML, AOS, whatever. They are inconsistant with old graphics and, it has been shown, they can be upgraded or changed with just a bit of effort. It is important to share a graphical consistency with what exists already - many of the new graphics to me just LOOK 2d, with their awkwardly defined edges and poor appearance. But worst of all is the angle many of them are at - they just dont look right for the angle that the rest of the world is at.
     
  16. EA has referred to the UO:KR client as "2.5d," meaning that it was written in 3d and then effectively backslid into 2d to make it, in theory, easier for lower-end computers to run -- and, presumably, to maintain the "feel" of the game. Many players of the game disagree with this, however, stating that the system requires far more work and optimization to run adequately on lower and middle end systems.


    Written in 3d, and uses 2d graphics, well known as SPRITES.

    Thats from the EA dev team.


    .....so what were you saying was 3d? Definately not any official UO client ^_^
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    its 3d and everything there is a 3d rendered image, maybe they used a program to make the skins for the models and they says that is how they got the 2d. But everything there was made with a 3d model maker and skinned. Then placed is a isometric top down 3d world that gives it the appearence of UO so your thinking OMG 2d. but it isnt.
     
  18. and if you still dont believe me take a look at some house roofing spots, walking underground (yew crypts perfect example), the fountain at moonglow event (water tiles don't properly fit together or overlap, because they are simple 2d and the sprites haven't been optimized to layer properly.

    All items (walls not included) would be completely flat if you were able to rotate the camera.
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Sprite = 2d
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    All items (walls not included) would be completely flat if you were able to rotate the camera.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Depends, maybe they'd follow the camera! Creepy - no matter where you move to, that gazer is always going to be staring at you!

    The models, I am not sure about - I havent played it for so long. I think they might be 3d - but the rest is most DEFINATELY 2d.

    Best way to check this is to zoom in. If it goes pixelated - its 2d. If you can see see the high definition then it is almost certainly 3d. Raster vs Vector graphics (from what I understand).
     
  21. <blockquote><hr>

    I don't know what your talking about nothing there is 2d bud sorry your wrong.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    better example: your pic there of KR... look closely at the table. It appears the left side is on the floor, *below* the seats of the chairs, and the right side is EVEN WITH the seats of the chairs. It actually reminds me of the famous staircase escher drawing
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    [​IMG]

    Listen this is a 3d model, this is how every player in UO is made sort :/ then they are placed in this 2d iso world which is also made up of pretty much the some 3d models. So instead of the regular sprite sets regular UO uses they are using 3d rendered models like the one above in the world instead of the 2d stuff.

    Think looking at this guy from the top at say a 30 degree angle then skin him with a 2d image and you have a 3d rendered model in a 2d world.

    Here, look...
    [​IMG]
     
  23. Yeah no crap thats a 3d model. And the texture files to wrap over it to give it color and well, texture when unpacked look like crazy shaped funky deisgn things.

    Unpack KR graphics, you will find a bunch of isometric flat sprites, NOT textures. Check it out :)
     
  24. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Nuba one I can't see for the life of my why I would unpack the graphics dude listen I just explained how the engine works.

    See that image up there thats how the different parts of the world is made on the KR client and its filled in with 3d models. Soooo..
     
  25. <blockquote><hr>

    Nuba one I can't see for the life of my why I would unpack the graphics dude listen I just explained how the engine works.

    See that image up there thats how the different parts of the world is made on the KR client and its filled in with 3d models. Soooo..

    [/ QUOTE ]

    When im at my work computer with proper software in about 4 hours I will mine up some character sprites *from KR* to show you.

    There is a reason you can't turn a smooth circle, and its not the isometric view. There is a reason weapons change hands when trying to do so; everything is layered 2D graphics. Walls, lighting, shaders are all 3d. But character models? They aren't models.
     
  26. Guest

    Guest Guest

    oki whatever you say..
     
  27. Sir_Bolo

    Sir_Bolo Sage
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
    Messages:
    645
    Likes Received:
    88
  28. <blockquote><hr>

    KR is 2D

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Thank you sir for pointing out a post from the CG SUPERVISOR proving my point [​IMG]
     
  29. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    [​IMG]

    Listen this is a 3d model, this is how every player in UO is made sort :/ then they are placed in this 2d iso world which is also made up of pretty much the some 3d models. So instead of the regular sprite sets regular UO uses they are using 3d rendered models like the one above in the world instead of the 2d stuff.

    Think looking at this guy from the top at say a 30 degree angle then skin him with a 2d image and you have a 3d rendered model in a 2d world.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    The 3d model is used to generate a 2d sprite. Could be really as simple as taking a screenshot of the model, resizing it, hueing it even maybe, and rendering it on a box on a 3d world. It is still only 2d.

    LETS MAKE AN EXAMPLE. We take your 3d model and we slap him in this world. Look 'ere, hes all 2d. I even hued him - but the bitmap used is still the original image and colour you posted here (ok ok, a little bit clipped at the edges and stuff to make it fit and scale down properly).

    [​IMG]

    You can even make it animate. Get a little animation of a model in say, 3ds, convert it into a gif with some free software and then take all of the frames and slap them on a single bitmap image. Then to animate, you just put in a little bit of code to map a different part of the bitmap to the square.

    This would result in a very "blocky" look if you zoomed in. However, if it was a 3d model, the interpolation between each vertex on the model would ensure that, no matter how far you zoomed in, you would always see a high resolution model with no blockiness.
     
  30. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Exactly but the model is still 3d, now say we make 90% 3d rendered images peice it all together in a psuedo 2d iso engine what do you have? I call that 3d but you say tomatoe I say tomAtoe.

    But same token you can turn a 3d engine to use all 2d images also and make it look completly 2d so what then would you call that?
     
  31. you obviously can't read then:

    <blockquote><hr>

    UOKR is still a 2D game with sprites and everything. We take advantage of a 3D client with things like the particle systems, but everything in UOKR is still 2D. If you were able to swing the camera around, it would look as though you were looking side-on at an image painted on a sheet of glass. Converting UO art from "2D" to "3D" would be a fun, but extensive undertaking. Sadly, there's no 2D/3D switch that can be flipped to turn everything to 3D.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Secondly, the advantage of 3D models is that you have a fully functional object viewable from all angles. In our isometric plane, we have 8 vertices you can change direction or move upon. EVERY SINGLE TRUE 3D GAME OUT THERE is not limited to 45 degree increments, and has free range of not only control, but view too.

    Problems like the pixie swatter showing OUTSIDE of the chars hand, water tiles spaced apart oddly, weapons changing hands depending on direction, the fact that on the proper angle you can see a spellbook through your shoulder (and some other items too-- hint if --&gt;this direction--&gt; = 0 degrees, face char at 45 and 135 degrees to see this) are all problems with sprites overlapping improperly.

    And yes you can take a 3d model and save it as a bitmap, but then all you have yet again is a flat image.

    ANyway enough of this now as you obviously are too stubborn to know you are wrong.
     
  32. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Slasher, look here Sprite Forge

    Programs like this are used to convert 3d models into 2d sprites. . Doesnt change the fact its a 3d model in a 2d world.

    [​IMG]
     
  33. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Im sorry, but you are wrong.

    It is a 2d sprite.

    A 3d model in a 2d world is just not possible. How do you map a z-axis coordinate for a vertex in an x and y coordinate world?

    Converting it to a 2d sprite is just a process of laying out each of the frames of the animation, as mentioned above. This software does what anybody with no life and enough free time like myself can do.

    I think that you are right in your view of how it all works, but your terminology is wrong and your opinion on what makes a 3d model a 3d model is different from how most other people would see it.

    Might be worth moving all of the last page to a separate thread, or renaming the topic to "Technicality - does UO use 3d models?" which would prompt a developer response and an end to any ambiguity.
     
  34. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Yes I must be completly wrong huh?
    [​IMG]

    Becuase who would have ever thought its easier to make 3d models then it is to make pixel sprites? Instead of spending a month per peice of clothing per weapon per horse or house tile its easier to do 90% in 3d then convert it to 2d just like that. SAVES time energy in money to companies becuase 3d models are much easier to make.
     
  35. actually the fastest way to make a series of an object from different rotational viewpoints IS to make a simple model (what sprite forge does, also possible with Bryce or any other 3d modelling program). Then rotate on one axis, save a bitmap, rinse, repeat. Spriteforge simply does this automated depending on the perameters you give it


    Now if you are suggesting the KR engine takes 3d models, renders them, and creates flat images to use, and projects the flat images to your GUI, you're just plain old silly. That sort of engine would NEVER be able to run on say, this laptop as it would be INFREAKINSANE on cpu and memory usage.

    no instead it is done beforehand, and packed into the bunch of animation*.uop files which are archived blank flat image copies of pretty much anything that can move in UO, which the engine can then hue to the proper coloring to display for you
     
  36. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Er easier to make maybe, but it requires more processing to calculate clipping, backface culling, shading, lighting.. all the things that you rely on software to do. When UO was released in 1997, most graphics accelerators and CPUs probably wouldn't have been able to handle anything more 3d than Alone in the Dark.

    And if you think it is easier to make a 3d model, try making a simple tank using only triangles, just by manually plotting the vertices. Even doing that, you rely on software to interpolate and calculate surface normals for lighting, which even then is a large element in itself. I will agree that 3d models are easier to produce, but the fact remains that after conversion, the result is just a 2d sprite.
     
  37. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Ok listen ill say again it takes 3d models just like that robot converts them to 2d at say a 30% angle places them into a psuedo 2d iso engine so the still look 3d. AND that my friends is how the KR engine works. It is still all 3d models. I don't know how else to explain this to you. take the website I posted a link to with the 2d engine get your self spriteforge make a 3d model convert it to 2d and you can have yourself a UO clone.. Trust me I know this for a fact [​IMG] The trees in some of those screenshots look familiar?

    Yes its much easier for someone to make a 3d model once you know how to do it you can fly thru a template of a man and then use a special program to make rag doll effects and everything else such as jumping and swinging a sword. IT IS SO MUCH faster and easier then the painstaking task of making sprite in say pain shop pixel my pixel frame by frame and hoping your getting it all right especially for a commercial game such as you with thousands of subscribers.
     
  38. <blockquote><hr>

    Er easier to make maybe, but it requires more processing to calculate clipping, backface culling, shading, lighting.. all the things that you rely on software to do.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    thats why it isn't perfect as sprites, because they have to backwards calculate everything after it is converted. If it WAS 3d models, it would beable to take advantage of more up to date lighting effects. Clipping is more for true 3d, but it "seems" to appear in 2d games, where sprites overlap improperly
     
  39. ALl 3d models being converted into 2d isn't done by the engine. This was done before hand and packed into the .uop files to be used by the engine.

    But yes I agree for once, though perhaps not the way you want it.

    Did they use 3d models to get their sprites? Yes when they release the game. Why do you think we got that 800MB KR patch to fix animations and graphics? Because they had to render those models, convert them to sprites, and pack them for use by the client.

    So the client is using 2d animations and images. 3d was done beforehand, not by the engine (excluding shading and special effects)


    <blockquote><hr>

    Ok listen ill say again it takes 3d models just like that robot converts them to 2d at say a 30% angle places them into a psuedo 2d iso engine so the still look 3d. AND that my friends is how the KR engine works. It is still all 3d models. I don't know how else to explain this to you. take the website I posted a link to with the 2d engine get your self spriteforge make a 3d model convert it to 2d and you can have yourself a UO clone.. Trust me I know this for a fact [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]
     
  40. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well like I said its just the terminology I have issue with - its not a 3d model that is put into the game - it is a 2d sprite.

    Back on topic - why was KR actually released? I mean, it is just a 2d game really, with extra macros and features. Considering they are using the same techniques to make graphics that they do in 2d, it seems a total waste of time and effort.
     
  41. Less talk... more playing!

    * heads to Moonglow, looking for the missing notes... *
     
  42. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Becuase like I said KR uses 3d models rendered down into 2d so it looks ALOT more 3dish then UO. Maybe they thought people would like it and also like I said 3d models are much easier to work with then render down into 2d sprites. You can tell that the regular UO client is done pixel by pixel frame by frame. And to keep updating with new items and places it would take someone AGES to make all those tilesets unless they had a team of like 20 people working day and night.

    Instead you fire those twenty people get yourself 3 good modelers from some fancy school make everything you need in 3d fire two of them when you got all the models you ever need in 3d. Render them down to 2d and walla your saving money.

    But of course I still say it looks like crap.
     
  43. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Becuase like I said KR uses 3d models rendered down into 2d

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Er, as far as I knew, UO has always developed their sprites that way?
     
  44. Sir_Bolo

    Sir_Bolo Sage
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
    Messages:
    645
    Likes Received:
    88
    <blockquote><hr>

    Becuase like I said KR uses 3d models rendered down into 2d so it looks ALOT more 3dish then UO. Maybe they thought people would like it and also like I said 3d models are much easier to work with then render down into 2d sprites. You can tell that the regular UO client is done pixel by pixel frame by frame.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You are completely wrong...
    Even the sprites for the original UO client were high-resolution 3D models rendered down into low-resolution 2D sprites.
    They are much more hand-polished than KR sprites (because they need to look good even at 640x480), but they're created in exactly the same way.
     
  45. Guest

    Guest Guest

    You can't see the difference between the UO client and the KR client?
    Yes you can tell some of the newer stuff was done that way, but as far as the world itself goes its all 2d tilesets houses, roofs, trees, grass, rocks.

    But in KR it isnt.. Rocks, chairs, candles.. You can tell a whole lot more of the world is 3d in KR.
     
  46. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Yes. KR looks terrible.
     
  47. Just because they look different doesn't mean they are made differently.

    Would you say compare oil paintings from 2 different artists and try to say one wasnt an oil painting? same thing.

    KR just uses higher resolution sprites and bitmaps, with newer models instead of the old ones. It needs them to be higher resolution, because unlike the legacy client you can zoom in/out your display (to a point) so KR has to keep the graphics from looking like someone built your character out of legos when you decide to zoom in.

    the method of using a 3d model to make animated sprites has been around since... god it was used in diablo 1, AoE, sure others could think of a dozen or more games to add to this list-- it doesn't make them 3d games though. Ok, so KR doesn't look like a nintendo game but take out the shading and lighting and the improved interface/hotbars and you would be left with a higher resolution, uglier version of the legacy client
     
  48. Guest

    Guest Guest

    all im saying is KR's environment is made out of 3d models while regular uo uses straight tilesets. I can't see any advantage in that at all I don't think it came out how they wanted it or something becuase it really looks bad.
     
  49. vyal ive been saying that since my first post.

    But characters and the like are ALL 2d.

    And some things still use legacy tiles
     
  50. I use 2D, as I always have. I havent even given KR really a chance.

    I still hope that SA would support only KR. If we get rid of 2D, I quess they can make 3D a lot better, since it does not have to support 2D. Am I right?