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300 combat points

Discussion in 'UHall' started by chad, Apr 23, 2011.

  1. chad

    chad Sage
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    Jack of all trades should count towards it again. I'm getting pretty bored watching all the same templates running around. It's pretty rare to see any diversity these days. Not to mention tank mages have it rough...you know, the like 4 people left playing one.

    Discuss.
     
  2. AzSel

    AzSel Lore Keeper
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    Not necessarily make JOAT count for it again, but id like to see a few more skills added to the list. Like chivalry and wrestling.
     
  3. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    Healing should be added too.
     
  4. chad

    chad Sage
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    Not a bad idea, but I don't think mages should be left out. Which is why I suggested JOAT.
     
  5. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    I can see adding Wrestling, but not chivalry. Add chivalry and you may as well add necromancy because it has curse weapon, or spell weaving because it has immolating weapon...

    At the same time remove stealth from the list. Walking quietly and undetected has NOTHING to do with combat...
     
  6. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    I don't see it that way at all.

    It was kinda meant to be a mana bump for warrior style templates right?

    Why tweak it to make it more friendly to a mage style template?
    Mage templates certainly have no need for a means to save more mana.

    Warriors have always had the serious need for more/max stats, not mages.

    Even taking into consideration the old flawed dex/parry calculation mages have never had the same need for overall stats that warriors have. Not a complaint, just a reality.
     
  7. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    I just spent 10mins writing a long response to your comment. I deleted it all knowing I'd just get flammed by all the dex monkeys.

    So, i'll just say you clearly have no clue...
     
  8. chuckoatl

    chuckoatl Guest

    I agree. My 4/6 guy took a hit in the mouth when JOAT got nerfed. I think chiv and healing should be added to the combat list. Crunch is right. There is literally no diversity left. All I see is disarm archers, bok DS ninjas, and mystics.
     
  9. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    That makes no sense at all.

    You are seeing those templates because they are easy to play and powerful. It has nothing to do with the lmc bump(or lack of)from the 300 point bonus.

    Anyone that thinks the JOAT nerf is making a whole batch of templates not viable is plain foolish. Its just not that big of a factor.

    No template ever created should have been dependant on the 300 point bonus.

    And btw, who is this 4/6 guy you speak about? I havent seen a 4/6 chiv pvper on Atlantic in years.
     
  10. spoonyd

    spoonyd Seasoned Veteran
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    I'm one of those ppl along with Reason!!!! The temp is actually fun to play tho and no one plays it. It's not as dull and boring as the same old temps that you speak of. It provides some real challenge unlike hitting the easy button and playing the cookie cutter templates. I agree it's time for some diversity and change.
     
  11. chad

    chad Sage
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    You should probably stop commenting at this point. Without any lmc bonus from combat points, two special moves combined cost 54 mana. That's 18 for the first and 36 for the second. That's simply ridiculous.
     
  12. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    The Devs wanted to make overusing special moves have a price?

    Use them less often, as was apparently intended. <shrug>
     
  13. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Really?

    At 40 lmc using the second special 3 seconds after the first cost 36 mana?

    You sure?

    Lol
     
  14. chuckoatl

    chuckoatl Guest

    Kindrid Spirit was my toons name and I am pretty sure most of ATL will remember extacy.


    Also it has everything to do with the LMC bump. Kindrid had macing, resist, healing, anat, chiv, tactics....... thats 120 points of "combat skills" think I had 60 parry on him too for a total of 160. How is that temp viable now?
     
  15. chad

    chad Sage
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    No, using it 3 seconds after would cost another 18. If you used it in under 3 seconds, it would cost 36.
     
  16. popps

    popps Always Present
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    It is no surprise to me that whenever players find a given template that allow them to do more things than other templates, then most players tend to develp and use that Template, mostly........

    That is why balancing out all templates at all times I see it as important, because it is the one key thing that ensures variety of templates in the game.

    I mean, if spawns are created to be tougher to tamers, for example, but easy for Sampires, what surprise is it that then most players will make a Sampire rather than a Tamer to deal with spawns ??

    As I see it, high end spawns should be tailored so that there are Bosses which tamers could fight but NOT melee characters or Mages, then spawns which melee fighters (not necessarily Sampires but also other melee fighters...) can fight solo but NOT tamers nor Mages, then Boss spawns for Mages but NOT for the other templates and so forth including Bards and so forth.

    What I am trying to say, is that spawns should be done catering all fighting styles so that at some spawns Tamers could go but not to others while at others spawns Melee fighters could go but not others and so on.

    This variety, since each Boss has unique loot, could then also prompt for players interactions in trading their unique loot with each other. Tamers would trade their unique loot with melee fighters, with Mages, with Bards and viceversa.

    But this requires keeping the game and the high end Bosses spawns balanced out among the various templates at any and all times.

    That's how I see it.
     
  17. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Quite simple.

    If you plan on having Parry on a template it should be at a serious level. Not simply a way to use up your last 60 points. Wtf is 60 Parry? Without Bushido a total waste.
    If your Parry was up just 40 more points to gm you would hit the 200 bonus mark and then get the -5 mana bonus.

    You wanna roll with Chiv on your character for all the extra goodies/defense then you have to sacrifice somewhere else. Join the club.

    I dont think too many people miss the days when every other warrior was running around with a 4/6 Chiv template spamming holy light/close wounds and disarming. That template NEVER killed anyone decent. Was just an annoyance.
     
  18. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Bottom Line:

    JOAT automatically counted for 200 of the 300 points needed.

    That is ridiculous. Why have it as a huge bonus if it can easily/instantly be obtained by damn near any possible template created?

    Was flawed from the start and rightly fixed after a long time. End of story.
     
  19. chad

    chad Sage
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    That's what I'm saying, it was great when any template could achieve it easily. It gave the game diversity. Now everyone plays cookie cutter templates, because simply put, if you want to be competitive, you need the 300 combat points and there's only so many skills that attribute toward it and only so many mesh together well. That leaves only a handful of templates.
     
  20. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    How do you not understand the balancing issue? It'd make any dexer that much more powerful. Hell just go with a weapon skill/med/focus and you have a ridiculous amount of mana. Yeah, that's fun... All mages would be on continual defense from dexers spamming AI's and running shots. I hardly ever play a mage but I see the obvious flaw with reverting this.

    My weaver dexer benefited greatly from JoAT. 4 Pixies on a target while disarmed and bleeding then on top of it I could spam 6 more AI's.... yeah that was definitely fair... Now I can do maybe 2 AI's after all that.

    Or a fencing/wrestling/alchy dexer. 83% pot increase so I got a bonus 41 or so to Str and Dex which guess where that all went... mana. So I'm sitting at like 160 mana on a undisarmable dexer with pot increase and JoAT lets me spam about 8-9 specials in a row.

    JoAT was a joke plain and simple.
     
  21. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Quiet elf lover =P
     
  22. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Damn them and their lack of the ability to carry 100 potions!!!
     
  23. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    I play a mage, and a mage only currently. back when Joat was around, it benifited my mages the same it does dexxers.

    A lot of people used to play Tank mages. Now it's very hard to do so with the mana cost.

    A lot of players use to play necro dexxers...very hard to do so now.

    4/6 chiv dexxers are all but forgoten now.

    In pvp currently all you see are people playing-
    -fencer/archer
    -stealther
    -mystic mage
    -mage tamer
    -Bok dexxer
    -dex tamer

    The majority being tamers, archers, and mystic mages.

    PvP is about as dull as it can get. Anyone else miss the days of tank mages/wrestle mages/dp dexxers/necro fencer mages/weaving mages/straight stand up dexxers/bushido dexxer/DP mage.......basically whenever you ran into someone you never knew what template you were going to fight. It was fun.

    A person being able to pop out 6-8 AI's honestly does not scare a mage. There's plenty of ways to fight it. not only that, in todays pvp all it takes is 3 lucky Ai's from an archer and you're dead anyways. Adding the mana for 3 more won't hurt anything, only allow people more means of fighting it!!!
     
  24. chad

    chad Sage
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    You don't even know the stat bonuses given from alchemy. I should just disregard anything you say at this point because I know you're full of it when you can't even construct a convincing story of "what you used to do." You chug agi/str for 36.

    Dexers will have unlimited mana? No they won't lol. But even if they did, I don't know about you, but I have never based my offense on the other person running out of mana. And if you will recall, JOAT did used to attribute and dexers did run meditation on templates and it wasn't even an issue.
     
  25. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Not only did it hurt the viability and popularity of certain templates, it damn well near ruined Humans for being Warriors. Warriors recieve almost no benefit whatsoever from being Human. Why be a Human Warrior, when you can be an Elf and recieve +20 Mana and +5% Energy Resist Cap, or be a Gargoyle and recieve +5% HCI Cap, +2 MR, gain Dam Inc when you're damaged, not to mention the ability to cast Enchant Weapon?

    My 4/6 Macer/Pally loved JoAT. He has 120 Macing/GM Tact/GM Anat/GM Healing/120 Resist/GM Focus/80 Chiv. His innate Special cost went from 20 Mana, to 30 when they made JoAT no longer count towards the Special Mana Reduction.
     
  26. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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  27. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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  28. Clog|Mordain

    Clog|Mordain Lore Master
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    No! JOAT should not be apart of this again.

    On my archer, I can spam concuss blows(that hit like a truck) 3-4 times. Which generally kill my target if they all hit.. Being able to spam even more would be rediculously overpowered.
     
  29. chad

    chad Sage
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    If you are using concussion, you're doing it wrong.
     
  30. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    The primary issue is that the JOAT nerf was done with an eye toward PvP balance, but instead had the primary effect of eliminating the viability of non-Bushido-based weapon-user templates, and the human race's use in general, in PvM.

    The simple fact is that the basic Samurai template is guaranteed to have 300 when complete, even if it's at something as extreme as weapon 120, parry 120 and bushido 60, or something more normal as 120/100/80. Ninja templates, more rare, also have that benefit (weapon/Ninjitsu/stealth).

    So, nearly all PvM weapon users I've seen are now
    Elven Sampires (melee or archers)
    Elven Whammies (archers, mostly)
    Gargoyle Thrower Whammies
    And a few people that experiment adding Mysticism to the ranged templates above.

    And even the Throwers have benefit of parry (though reduced), with the way that skill works.

    Steering people into a few templates, and practically eliminating a race from play (the net effect of this, as the JOAT bonus was the only thing that allowed humans to compete) is an overall negative for the game.

    Something should be done to undo this unintended consequence, while not undoing the real intent of the nerf. Simply adding Chivalry to the list of skills (as it has very few PvP uses - even less when you take into account the suits engineered with imbuing to not be vulnerable to Consecrate weapon), would go a long way for this. Another would be to come up with another property for the human race, to offset how most JOAT effects have been nerfed.
     
  31. chuckoatl

    chuckoatl Guest

    I was going to say that :p

    Like someone said also, being abing to spam specials isnt the issue here. Hell my mystic never runs out of mana and it really doesnt help him survive. All we are saying is that numerous template went the way of the dodo when JOAT killed them. I know of several people including me that wants to play his tank mage again.
     
  32. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    I don't see a good reason why it should be part of the list in any of this. Seems like a personal preference rather than over all practicality.
     
  33. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Mixing up a template is suppose to have draw backs. Either is makes you lack specific mods in your suit or you don't have the full mana recovering intensity that a standard template would have or you're lacking in damage to provide more defense or alternate skills or just the opposite. It's called balance.

    Did everyone forget the bonuses from being human? HPR 2, carrying capability(very important to potion addicted players), tracking (sometimes even skilled hiders), using lower level scrolls with 0% fail rate, 3 MR 2 SR if you don't have med or focus.

    It all depends on your play style. Some people like 20 mana and no passive skill regen better.

    The only thing that needs to be added to the list is wrestling.
     
  34. chuckoatl

    chuckoatl Guest

    Why would you need wrestling added? You spam para blow more than 2 times in 3 seconds?
     
  35. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    It actually has something to do with combat. The fact it can give you 50% defense from any hit with the proper DCI is a huge part of combat as well as disarm leading to a great offensive advantage has something to do with combat as well. Also parry is part of the list... that pretty much does nothing but block right? Unless you're wearing the Boura's Tail shield then it has a chance to para also.

    IMO wrestling has as much of a reason to be in the list as parry does...
     
  36. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    No offense bud but you really should think about what you say.

    Conc blow is still a very viable special against certain templates/spells.

    Lets maybe think a bit before we mock other people?

    Bottom line is that whatever side you wanna take, JOAT mindlessly counting as 2/3 of a huge mana bonus was way overpowered.
    Its not about template viability. Its about template & special move abuse.
    And I primarily play warrior templates that could & did benefit greatly from it.
     
  37. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    How is this not about spamming specials? That's all anyone is talking about. They want to add more to the combat skill list with out thoroughly examining anything so they can have lower mana cost! Less mana used makes more special moves in the end!
     
  38. its not about spaming the special moves,

    Basically the 300 points only favor dexxer, They could of put eval on that list (would of been good for tank mages) and chiv.

    The tank mage is uo oldest temp and most fun ever, It seems everytime tank mages become viable again there is some patch to nerf them
     
  39. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    That's because it's combat related. It'd be like saying a dexer should be able to have magery w/o the eval but still have the damage of a normal mage that has eval. Why should a mage have the same mana cost as a dexer that has multiple skills that focus in combat instead of the bare minimum?
     
  40. chuckoatl

    chuckoatl Guest

    Every skill is combat related. You don't make characters (if you PvP) that are not combat oriented. All we are saying is that they completely destroyed several templates when the nerfed JOAT. This is a game of diversity, not cookie cutter templates. If thats what you want go play WOW.
     
  41. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Ok the physical part of combat. Not really sure why people want to play dumb on this topic. You can still make all of those templates. You just don't recieve the BONUS lower mana cost since you aren't as specialized in the physical aspect of UO combat.

    Chivalry only partially assists the physical part of combat. None of the combat skills effect anything in any chivalry spell. There are no special moves based on chivalry skill. That's why it's not part of the list. Same reason necromancy/spellweaving aren't on the list.
     
  42. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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  43. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    I hear what you are saying but IMO they didnt ruin pvp/pvm diversity. They just changed it and made it a bit more difficult. There are still plenty of diverse templates. You just cant spam specials on those templates quite as easily.

    I completely agree that more diverse templates always create more fun & excitement.
    Nothing worse then having to fight the same 3 templates every day.

    But one thing that will never change is that the majority of pvpers will always play the powerful 'gimplate of the month' no matter how uninteresting or boring that gimplate is :(
     
  44. Elden of Baja

    Elden of Baja Journeyman
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    I could of sworn wrestling was on the list of skills.... *Scratches head*

    Oh well, Guess I'll drop wrestle and go bush. :p Cookie Cutter FTW

    And now I can probably do 5 Specials!!!! BOOYAH!


    They nerfed Conc, Its pathetic now..... AI for the win
     
  45. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    It's not really that useless. Conc a mage that just did a half mana dump and they're down to about 40 mana. Only enough to stay on the defensive till it wears off.
     
  46. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Add eval to the list and be done with hit :lol: Eval is just as worthy as stealth, if not more.
     
  47. spoonyd

    spoonyd Seasoned Veteran
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    These ppl that continue to post obviously don't understand the thought I've quoted above. This single problem is why UO pvp is really boring anymore.
     
  48. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    It's not really the 300 skill points making things boring then. It's the fact that the new skills that get released out do the old skills. Things need to be added to the old skills like what happened with the bard songs.

    People don't seem to understand that it's a BONUS when you have that amount. It's not saying things are unobtainable if you don't have 300 skill points. These few not very well thought out people sure make it seem that way though :/.