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+ 5 stat scroll

Discussion in 'UHall' started by SlobberKnocker, Nov 5, 2012.

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  1. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    did we ever receive any clarification as to why this scroll was not fel based only?

    It seems like given the recent destruction of factions and now this decision theres no clear thought process as to how to keep fel lively moving forward.
     
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  2. popps

    popps Always Present
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    It was actually a VERY wise move to have this scroll drop in Trammel, IMHO. The vast majority of subscriptions which currently keeps Ultima Online going is trammel based, not felucca.

    Players should not HAVE TO go to Felucca, players should decide to go to felucca because they enjoy it, they want it. Putting needed items on Felucca only could make the majority of current subscribers very upset.....

    And that would not be a good move for UO, IMHO.
     
  3. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    Same tired argument Popps. No one HAS to go nor are the FORCED to go. People aren't going to unsubscribe because of more content or items in fel. I could care less about the stat scroll or where it is, but lets not pass opinions off as facts.
     
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  4. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    Because this game is ran and played predominantly by trammies...duh!
     
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  5. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    No, but the answer should be fairly obvious. Incentives to get people to go to Fel have continually failed long-term, and it's an imitation of an item already awarded in a Tram-based event.

    Remember that the item achieves its greatest effectiveness alongside an item, the +25 stat scroll, which has been Fel-only for 63 Publishes apart from rare use of the Harrower in an EM event.

    -Galen's player
     
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  6. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    my original question stands and that is if anyone saw any rational by the dev's as to why this was done.

    i suppose none will be forthcoming.
     
  7. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    i guess i viewed this as a way to get more activity in fel. given the faction nerf most low population shards would allow all guilds a chance to goto fel to compete for those scrolls. throw in the shard transfer shields and its not a big deal really.
     
  8. Kyronix

    Kyronix UO Designer
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    Without getting into a huge Tram v Fel debate, it is based on two reasons. First, Ver Lor Reg is significant to the origins of Exodus' reentry into Britannia. Second, the +25 scroll is available in Fel and thus the +5 is available in Tram.
     
  9. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, a Reason to go to Tram is Balanced out by a Reason to go to fel. It has nothing to do with whether or not You are a PvPer, or a PvMer. Most PvPers have done Both...
    you really can't be a pvper, without getting things from Pvm, unless someone... gives them.. to you.

    Edit: More Exclusive Content For EACH Facet... (without favoritism.) That is all I ask for.
     
    #9 CovenantX, Nov 5, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
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  10. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    Myself and two buddies did a harrower on the weekend at prime time, took all of 40 mins front to back and not a single person showed up.

    13 +25's and various others plus I got a big skull drop(what ever that is).

    From what I understook this "champ" to get the +5 scroll was limited to people from the same party only joining after a certain short time period and once that timer was gone it was yours to finish as you saw fit...true yes/no?
     
  11. Kyronix

    Kyronix UO Designer
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    The timing/HP restrictions are actually in place to protect your ability to get a fair shot at the rewards from Exodus. You basically will never go into the encounter and find that Exodus has like 2 hit points left, now you are left, after collecting all of the keys, with a next-to-null chance at getting a reward. Anyone who gets on the "top attacker list" (which includes damage dealt, damage healed, and damage taken) has an equal chance at the various rewards, regardless of what party you are in.
     
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  12. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Why not show favoritism to the greater number of customers?

    That's not really even favoritism in any meaningful sense. It's just good business.

    To be honest, it's about balanced in terms of visible population already.

    -Galen's player
     
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  13. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    Why not cater to both? That makes an even better business.
     
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  14. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Because without fel, this game would become one-sided. it might be better for non-pvpers, but it could be the "End" of UO, Show no favoritism to anyone, and keep the desire for both sides.
     
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  15. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Numerically, the end of Fel wouldn't be the end of UO.

    It would be the end of UO for you, but a much greater number faced and end of UO called EverQuest, and left voluntarily.

    *shrugs*

    -Galen's player
     
  16. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    At this point, Obviously something isn't going "as planned", Jeff & the UO Dev team, has mentioned they are NOT (at this time) working on any expansions, they are focused on retaining the people who are still currently playing UO. To me, this is a sign that If fel dies, UO has a potential of dieing with it, (doesn't mean it's true) but... Why would it be so important to them if it wasn't the case?
     
  17. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Not really.

    First of all, remember the nature of Fel. Go back and read Richard Garriott's UO memory of "The Thief." Driving other players from the game, other customers from the product, is at best something you're willing to risk and at best part of the fun. If honest PvP was desired then there wouldn't be as much RL smack talk as there was, wouldn't be as much repeated victimization of obviously vulnerable targets, and the issue of PKs camping new player spawn points in the old days would not have been an issue at all. And personal attacks wouldn't occur on message boards. Some of you have been quite open about all this and denying it is pointless.

    Second, catering to the minority of customers usually means offering them something that's out of the reach of the majority of customers. It by definition typically makes more business sense to alienate 1 person as opposed to 10 people. Surely not always, but typically.

    And finally, remember that Fellis do not currently play the content available to them. The acknowledgement of the new Abyss champs, and the really quite neat content available therein, has been slight, and ineed to hear you all tell it there's been nothing since Publish 16 and Publish 16 doesn't seem to count for you all anymore. Why give content to 1 out of every 10 players when they won't even play it most of the time?

    Again, you all needn't worry. I can't think of a single instance were the UO team has done something at my suggestion and many successive teams have been committed to creating more incentives to be/rewards for being in Fel. I doubt this will stop, it's just a matter of what they offer and when and under what circumstances.

    It's a bad business decision on their parts, as far as I can tell, but it is what it is.

    -Galen's player
     
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  18. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    Speaking for myself only, I come back every so often to see whats new and give it a shot. I pvp but generally it's hard to find any pvp when youd like to so you have to go across multiple shards to find it. This usually lasts about a month because I get tired of looking with no interest in a lot of the trammel activities long before the subscription is up. So I cancel it and keep waiting. I suspect I'm not the only one following this pattern, so why not take some time to invest in it.

    People who pvp return all the time, who knows a little incentive might get them to stay at least a little longer.
     
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  19. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    There is no need to argue this point. Felucca, Siege, Mugen, Trammel... They are all in the same boat. Sail together or sink.

    Baby and bathwater springs to mind too... just sayin'
     
  20. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    They are already catering to 75% of the UO population why wouldn't they want to add on top of that? You're telling me it's not good business to attract more people despite the facet? You're kidding yourself.

    Catering to a minority still makes it available to the whole player base. Not those like you who don't want any content simply because you're satisfied with the status quo.
     
    #20 Berethrain, Nov 5, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  21. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    If the topic keeps coming up then there is need to discuss it. We're not all in the same boat, pvpers are on the life raft trailing the main ship without any oars.

    Sink or swim indeed.
     
  22. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    What is stopping you from PvPing? Lack of participation? Lack of targets? It is just not a popular rule set. I get this. Insurance, double resources, power scrolls, and I do not know how many other incentives have been tried. It is not going to work. The vast majority of players do not want to be "killed" by another player.
     
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  23. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Problem is though, when it is discussed it always results in personal insults, trolling, and arguing. Rarely can it actually be "discussed" without civility being tossed out the window.
     
  24. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    Incentives DO work. Look how many people started pvping for power scrolls. Look how many people joined factions and actually played factions when they came out with faction armor?

    These will never be long term scenarios because the majority of the content is introduced for the other 75%, so when you neglect the fel side of course people are going to stop.

    People who pvp will keep pvping until they lose interest or find something better. I'm unsure why UO thinks it has something to lose by trying to recoup even the fel and pvp side of things.

    Because you and Galen say so? Ha!
     
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  25. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    This is true, but when we attempt you always have someone like Galen, Jade of Sonoma, swroberts, trying to trample it down. I don't recall the last time i thwarted any of their trammel content. Why should they be so content on doing the same other than they have nothing better to do.

    The arguements they give really don't hold any water, they just don't want any pixel crack added to the game that isn't easy to get from trammel.
     
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  26. Gorbs

    Gorbs Sage
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    I'm pretty disappointed that anyone would ask for a PvM encounter to be added to Felucca with the justification that it could improve pvp participation. Add content that is related to PvP to entice people to Felucca. Add a way for reds to participate in the PvM content that is added to the game. Don't confuse the two.
     
  27. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    What do you think champ spawns were?
     
  28. THP

    THP Stratics Legend
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    which shard do u tough mother pk reds play on??? because i run all over europa in felluca...not yew gate or the champ spawn areas ....but damn were everywere else in full visible....and iam a true blue...as u hard nuts would call me.... and have only come to grief maybe a half dozen times in last 5-6 years?...erm thats once per year??? [:next:]
     
    #28 THP, Nov 5, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
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  29. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I have no problems whatsoever in new content added exclusively to felucca as long as it is not items that make characters more powerfull. No items that allow the raising of skills/stats CAPs and no items that provide special modifiers be them gear or weapons. Items that allow characters to improve should be readily available to any and all players and, as of now, the only facet which ensures this is Trammel. This is to ensure the ability to any and all players to equally be able to reach the top levels of competitiveness.

    Just in case some players may think to go to Felucca and take part in PvP, these players should be able to fit their characters to the highest level before they get into Felucca rueset areas and get engaged into PvP....
     
    #29 popps, Nov 5, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
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  30. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    What other incentives were added for Fel, that DID NOT Work? Power-scrolls have been over-ruled saying it didn't HELP PvP, is completely NOT True, it gave Fel a Purpose other than pvp. so please, ANYONE speak up with something that did not work...

    The only things that don't work now... (Due to being Outdated) they have "Lost" their interest, Which in NO WAY says they didn't work. I'm open for anything that might serve valid to this argument. powerscrolls are just Not one of those things. what else is there? Khaldun? it was once a place that was fun to fight in, there's nothing but books in there now, which have been in there since the dungeon existed.
     
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  31. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    You do know I play Siege almost exclusively?
     
  32. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I've listed the incentives elsewhere, on many occasions. My lists have been ignored, and repeating them seems to serve no purpose, they will only be ignored again.

    -Galen's player
     
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  33. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    First of all, Spawns were actually part of ilshenar before power-scrolls were even thought of.

    Champ spawns are Pvm-based, in a PvP enabled environment (in Fel). It seems that people assume because a character is "Built" for PVM, it CANNOT PvP. If that were true, Every PvMer would lose a spawn Everytime to PvPers. It's based on HOW you play YOUR Character. Anyone can pvp, it depends on if your willing to learn it, If you want rewards only obtainable in fel, Learn pvp OR get pvpers to Help you. If you want rewards from Trammel, you Learn how to Pvm, or you get PvMers to Help you... (the circle)

    I pvp on my Wammie, ALL the time. I actually prefer to pvp on my wammie more than my pvp characters at times. is my wammie built for PvP? um, no. not even remotely close to being built for pvp.
    Same with my bard, I'll post my templates if you would be interested in seeing them, But, I have stated I play both of those characters in pvp in other threads.


    What's the difference between a Sampire and a PvP dexer? The Weapons... various template differ, but it's mostly the weapons that make on able to pvp. You're not going to spam whirlwind on someone to death...
    What's the difference between a PvM-Mage, and a PvP mage? Slayer Spell-books/mage weapons (unless wrestling is involved)... like come on how is this so hard to think of when PvM/PvPers are tested against each-other.
     
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  34. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    They have not been ignored, you have chosen to ignored them, stating that the were "Failed models" because YOU weren't interested in it. Power-scrolls and Khaldun were two things you mentioned in the list you are referring too.

    Might I also add the list you're referring too.
    You also stated- that you go to fel for "unique rewards" and were considering giving them up...

    Edit: to me anything that is Unique, to one facet is not obtainable in another. in any way, shape, or form.
     
    #34 CovenantX, Nov 5, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
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  35. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Sounds like yer having a hella good time?
     
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  36. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    You are mis-stating me.

    Fel is a failed model because no one wants to play there without specific incentives to do so, which do not have a parallel in the rest of the game. And none of those incentives work for forever, because Fel itself is a failed business model.

    It has nothing to do with whether I want to play there or not. There was a time when I played there quite frequently. Factions, Yew Gate Fighting, Champ Spawns, Harrowers, raiding, the whole thing. Done it alone, done it in guilds.

    I will once again list the Fel-only content, in no particular order:

    • Faction Artifacts (and other things associated with Factions) (ever wonder how humans wear elf armor? That's from Factions);
    • Dungeon Khaldun (the first of a long-line of incentives to go to Fel that failed in the longer-term);
    • Power Scrolls (which remain the only item that's absolutely necessary to build up a character to the max, all other Artifacts you can design a suit to work around needing);
    • Anything from the Abyssal Infernal Spawn;
    • Anything from the Primeval Lich Spawn;
    • Double Fame;
    • Double Karma;
    • Double Resources;
    • Anything from the Harrower;
    • Anecdotal reports have indicated there's a better chance of getting any Champ Spawn Artifact from there.

    These are sometimes derided as not being "meaningful" rewards but it's hard to imagine something that is meaningful if nothing on this list is. Getting to Glorious Lord in most Trammel Rules PvM situations is something you have to set out to do; in Fel you can nearly do it afk if you know where to go. The Primeval Lich spawn has content most will never see because those who like to PvP have chosen to ignore it or complain about it. In an age where resources are random, double resources cannot be under-estimated.

    Your second statement, that I've ignored the rewards, is again a mis-statement of me. I mean that Fellies have ignored them because they frequently state that they do not exist, when they do. Either Fellies aren't aware of what's in their own facet, or they have chosen to pretend it is not there.

    *shrugs*

    -Galen's player
     
  37. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    No, I just know how walking away will be taken.

    I abhor message board PvP.

    -Galen's player
     
  38. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    There's like two drops from the harrower, that are not obtainable in The Trammel-only Pestilence spawn (the spawn has it's own unique drops only obtainable there as well). double fame, karma are incentives, but what do they do? (hence why they're no longer attractive)

    The primeval lich & The Abyssal infernal spawns, were not ignored either, I've mentioned they were "true" incentives, it's their implementation that makes them not attractive.

    Double resources... The reason This is not factored in at all, for Both sides tram/fel, regardless is because the entire system isn't made for honest players, It Caters to scripters and has been discussed on these forums many times. It's lost its value, and not because of fel.

    Felucca is a failed model because the majority of the player-base doesn't want to play there? No one mentions it's because fel is only about 15-20% of the entire games content, and most of it is obtainable anywhere as a reason people don't want to play there...

    There are plenty of people, including yourself that say they go to fel for things they can only get in fel... (I do whatever possible, in fel most of the time) with no advantage. except powerscrolls. and that is Only if what I'm doing is Champ-spawns.
     
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  39. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    My view, mirror everything, Tram, Fel, Ilsh, Tokuno, Malas. You want a Fel ruleset Doom or a Fel Ilshenar etc? Great, have it!

    But that will also include mirroring the ALL the rewards including powerscrolls/harrower etc. Then there will be nothing for any to complain about. Correct? You can play whatever facet you like. Seems a plan to me.

    So tired of the complaining by the pk set about lack of love. Lets give you all the love, I have no problem with that, but as I said above mirror ALL the rewards. You can't have one without the other.

    Bet you won't want to give up the power and stat scrolls though as we all know you really only want carrots to 'force' those who do NOT wish to pvp into your ruleset where you have NO risk as you're set up with templates and armors for pvp/pking as opposed to those set up for pvm. Risk v Reward is always great when the PK has little risk isn't it?

    So really, really, really, TIRED of the 'we don't have .... yadda yadda' when it's your choice to play solo in Fel and choose not to have at least one or two blues on your 7 character account.

    Mirror the whole lot and then maybe we can have some peace and quiet about it.
     
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  40. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    ........... Mirrioring facets will equal content, but the problem is........... PvPers will go to trammel to PVM, farming the items They want for PvP, which will not have changed Anything, fel-rule-set would stay dead. (it would be better still) but without any Incentives (regardless of what they may be) to allow yourself to be attacked by other players, and not being able to push through monsters without full stamina.. what would be the point of equal content if everything is the same.

    What would be the point in doing anything in Fel-rule-set ? someone answer this question... and please oh god, make some sense out of it...
     
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  41. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    This is like saying Trammel is a failed business model because they keep dumping "incentives" into it. I've come to the conclusion your bias against fel has no other agenda other than to argue something because you disagree with it. Feel free to to let the rest of us who would like to actually see content in fel, whether its a "failed business model" or not, continue with a productive thread toward this outcome.
     
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  42. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    i disagree about enticing the trammel types to fel. there is nothing fun about killing sheep. i think the pvp community is looking for more challenges than face planting galen's player 100 times per day. how about bringing something in game to the fel side that would attract a fair amount of the 1st person shooter crowd out there.
     
  43. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    I'm aware, but more specifically referring to the power scrolls as a result of killing a champ.

    Yes I'm aware, and yet I fail to see your point. Siege plays with a different ruleset than most shards, though they can still access most things like a normal production shard. Otherwise, I'd imagine theyd be in favor of this, but you're not since the fel ruleset applies to the entire shard and it's facets.
     
  44. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    i must say, having the +5 stat scroll in fel only would be huge for pvp, if it created fights over this peerless thingy, or whatever it is. Too bad the slither wasn't fel only... amiright!? Power scorlls are the only thing that is really fel only, everything else is tram only. Fel could use a bone thrown its way, or two, or 10.

    People say "oh i dont want to have to pvp to get items" Yea.. well i don't want to pvm to get them either. If i do, id rather kill something in the midst of a much larger objective... that being.. fighting about while the guild/group kills the boss.

    By not wanting to pvm, it makes it so i either A. conform and pvm, or B. use gold to buy the items i'd otherwise have to pvm for.

    Fel only items are the same way, either you A. Conform and fight (or hope to sneak and get the item and avoid a fight). Or b. use your gold and buy the item.


    For the love of god see the perspective from both directions...


    And seriously... i'm not talking about, hey lets mirror everything, lets have a doom in fel and tram. No... people will just flock to tram for the little risk, and the common pvper would still need to pvm with no hope of pvp happening.

    Like someone said... its not about enticing sheep to fel to smack around, its about creating pvp. Fel only items create that pvp. Just because there are different games within the game we all play, doesn't mean we should all have to conform to one ideology. Split things, you can pvm and get things, buy the other things if u dont wanna pvp. I can pvp and ultimately get some things, buy the other things i dont wanna pvm for...
     
    #44 Cetric, Nov 5, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
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  45. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Without getting into a big debate, I will add something that irks me. I am all for allowing red's access to tram, but only because that's where they are adding all the new content. When the devs addressed this question they said this wouldn't happen because they would be adding newer content to fel. Perhaps I am jumping the gun a bit, but when they added this +5 scroll and assigned it strictly to tram I was disappointed. The least they could have done is apply it to both facets, maybe dropping in a new champ spawn that people can compete over for fel.
     
    #45 Viper09, Nov 5, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
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  46. Corpin

    Corpin Journeyman

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    That's a point the fel players have been trying to make to no avail. Fel IS NOT insta-pk death. There is almost 0 risk of being PK'd.
     
  47. Corpin

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    So fel is not readily available to all players? It most certainly is. Desire to not go to fel does NOT mean the inability.
     
  48. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Kyronix has answered this question.
     
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