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a discussion on artifacts

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Smoot, Sep 13, 2015.

  1. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    Artifacts have always been a mystery with me when it comes to UO. Are they supposed to used? is it the devs intention for the vast majority to be "deco" "rp" or noob throwaway gear until better is found. For a while i assumed that the devs just had no idea what was actually "good" when it comes to gear, but could it be possible that artifact drops are intentially designed to be "bad" to put greater value on random loot and crafted weapons / armor.

    When it comes to games, i think static drops should be usable. Ideally if i were making a game, i would make "noob" weapons have complimenting mods, but low intensities. this would give players not familiar with stats an idea what to look for, but just with better higher intensities. Perhaps the devs have gone the other route and utilized modern uo artifacts for the player to identify what is "bad", what NOT to look for. which seems counter-intuitive to me but maybe im just over-thinking things.

    Lets look at the most recent artifact additions:

    Under the sea boss (i have never found a need to do it at all)
    0 useful artifacts
    1 useable artifact (the bow, if your ok not having balanced on a tank mage)

    High Seas
    Corguls sash (15 bucks for second best in slot item?)

    Revamped Despise
    These artifacts were a mild success. quiver, ring, sandles extremely useful. warforks / garg spears worthless

    Now for the new expansion artifacts (thankyou @Uvtha for wherever you found this info and posting it)

    Balakai's Shama Staff:
    Wildstaff
    +10 med
    MW -10
    SC
    Enhance potions 10%.
    Best artifact of the new expansion:
    not overpowered, but useable when combined with: mage travesty, dci jewels, slither / orb,
    it gives options for suits that utilize back slot for the new cape or rangers cloak, as well as lower cost suits using mana-orb / infinity quiver/ dci sash


    This artifact basically opens up jewel options for mages using a mageweapon. Sacrifice head slot for greater versatility in jewels. If this staff were -15 mageweapon, absolutely no one would find a use for it.

    Lerei's Hunting Spear:
    Long Spear
    Hit Curse 10%
    Reptile Slayer
    Hit Mana Leech 50%
    HCI 15%
    DI 60%
    Essentially Useless. its a noob weapon that could be picked up until a decent suit / weapon can be imbued.

    Jumu's Sacred Hide:
    Cape
    Fire eater 10%
    FCR 1
    Fire resist 5%
    Useful for lower cost eater suit. id say about equal with rangers cloak for mages. slightly opens up jewel options if your using imbed as 1 of your jewels. 2 fcr would make this item extremely desireable, possibly even over-powered.

    Grugor's Shield:
    Wooden shield
    Strength bonus 10
    SI 10
    HPR 5
    +4 in all resists.
    Cleanup points. no value to any real character / template

    Halawa's Hunting Bow
    Yumi
    Eodon Slayer
    Velocity 60%
    HCI 20%
    SSI 45%
    DI 60%
    Cleanup points / noob weapon. not good for pvm or pvp for anything other than an AFK scripted character

    Moctapotl's Obsidian Sword
    Paladin Sword
    Hit Harm 50%
    Hit Physical Area: 50%
    Hit Stamina Leeche 100%
    Splintering Weapon 20%
    SSI 40%
    DI 75%
    A close miss. There might be 1 guy in the entire game who attempts using this on a pvp necro, but its basically useless. even at 210 stam max ssi you can only swing this weapon every 2 seconds. its impossible to get the swing down to a useable speed. plus its 2 handed. plus it has area. its really a shame this weapon is just bad. a different weapon type, like say ornate axe, hatchet, or 1 handed weapon would at least make this weapon somewhat desireable.


    Fell Free to continue the discussion of UO artifact drops.
    Please keep things clean, this post is meant to bring a better understanding of what artfact drops are really meant for and there place in UO.


    @Kyronix @Bleak @Mesanna Feel free to shed some light on your decision process when analyzing mods for new artifacts if you feel that would be beneficial to players understanding the role of the artifact drop in modern UO. Thankyou
     
  2. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Last time i checked, the Hit Curse on Weapons is affected by the victim's Resist skill, which makes it pretty worthless against decent Resist targets, such as Dragons that the Spear has Reptile Slayer for. Plus the effect has a 30 second cooldown.

    Makes me kind of nostalgic for the old Pre-AoS naming system though. I still have a few oldschool charged weapons "of Evil", which have Hit Curse charges. "of Ghoul's Touch" was an awesome name for Hit Paralyze weapons. Still have my "Durable, Accurate Silver Broadsword of Ruin and Ghoul's Touch: 10" that now just reads as "+20% Durability/+2% Hit Chance Increase/Undead Slayer/+15% Damage Increase/Paralyze Charges: 10".
     
    #2 PlayerSkillFTW, Sep 13, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2015
  3. Deraj

    Deraj Sage
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    Seems like the main complaint here is more of the general uselessness of paladin swords - a valid complaint and one which I feel would be equally valid for many other weapons as well.

    I would almost call it a notable item if Hit Curse weren't affected by resisting spells (a slayer that lowers an enemies resist could be useful) - except that it's a spear, which uses Armor Ignore. Seems like kind of a waste.
     
  4. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Am I the only one who feel like Armor Ignore and Mana Leech being basically requirements on weapon kind of kills a lot of potential? I really think it might be a good idea to give these abilities to skills somehow just to open up the range of usable weapons, and artifact designs.

    Cause I mean a weapon without Mana Leech and Armor ignore (or double strike), just won't ever be used by 99% of players.
     
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  5. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    thing about paladin swords, its not exactly a "real" weapon. like you cant craft it, cant loot it. its been on "the redeemer" and a few event drops, as well as the doggy dupe version which can be imbued.

    but your right, its really just too slow to be useful in any form. maybe as a mageweapon for big base hit weapon, but other than that the limitations on stamina and swing speed that we currently have make it generally un-usable. Even at 240 stamina (which is currently impossible to achieve using a 2 handed weapon) it would only swing at 1.75 at 60ssi (cap) which is still too slow. 1.5 speed is pretty much the cutoff now for a weapon to be have any practical use at all.
     
  6. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    agree with you to a point. any weapon without mana leech is either an AKF /auto-attack weapon, or a pvp weapon. I see "Moctapotl's Obsidian Sword" (Paladin Sword) as trying to be designed as a pseudo-pvp weapon, (especially since it has splintering) but theres just too many strikes against it.

    But yes, the different weapon specials we have no are generally all useless in pvm, but highly useful in pvp.
    PVM weapon specials:
    armor ignore
    whirlwind
    feint
    Once in a while moving shot or that area thing the magical shortbow does
    followed by poison / bleed, but this damage output is really insignificant compared to an AI

    My only suggestion to revitalize current specail moves for pvm would be to add features to current mobs, like healing (countered by mortal strike) and disarm (disarm used to be useful on some bosses but i think that was removed)
    Theres alot the devs could do with current content to make these specials useful again if they ever chose to.

    Just something to think about, which is what this discussion is all about :)
     
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  7. King Greg

    King Greg Seasoned Veteran

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    I agree with smoot on all the artifacts.
     
  8. THP

    THP Stratics Legend
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    i will keep peeps busy till they have the new set in there collection...

    mainy for collecting purposes any of the artfiacts...even the old doom stuff theres only odd useable....but like i say ..people and UO.. as become more of a collectors game with the odd bit of combat for fun....]
     
  9. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I agree. I don't even like the Fey Slayer bow as it lacks Mana Leech.

    Most artifacts are poor weapons and you can imbue things 100X better. I am with everyone else wondering how the DEVs decide what to give us as an Aritifact...

    It's like most jewels...they spawn with combinations that aren't useful for any class of character. Either missing Defense Chance or Hit Chance. Hit Chance on Jewels for a Dexer are a must.
     
  10. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    I also agree on the artifacts. Each item has a deficiency which would relegate it as deco in my house. I would like to see these items slightly adapted so they are usable by the majority of players. Almost every weapon needs to have HML and HSL to be usable. SSI needs to be able to bring the weapon to max speed at 180 or 210 stamina (for the really hard hitting weapons).

    I must note I do like the new Mage Weapon. This could be useful. I need to think how I would apply it into one of my Mage's suit.
     
  11. Scribbles

    Scribbles Babbling Loonie
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    Yeah, its pretty obvious the UO staff hasnt put a suit together in a long time... More items for clean up points is all i see.
     
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  12. CronusVl

    CronusVl Journeyman
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    All artifacts only for CP. :grrr:
    And in comparison with legendary items from loot, very bad.
     
  13. Vor

    Vor Grand Inquisitor
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    Got to agree. What's the point in them? If they are for new players then fair does, but surely should be low end content drops not high end content rewards.
     
  14. CronusVl

    CronusVl Journeyman
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    For new players our game have so much artifacts - tokuno, from paragons, from tokens and etc. We need global system of revision all artifacts in game.
    I think list with usefull artifacts from all artifacts will be very small.
     
  15. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    The way I see it, an artifacts place in the game should have something special that cant be gotten from loot / crafting. 1 or 2 mods that can only be gotten from that artifact, but the other mods not crazy powerful.

    Examples of successful, highly used artifacts all have this in common.
    A few of them:
    Mace and shields / prismatics lenses - hld mod on armor
    mempo of fortune - higher luck than can be crafted / looted
    any back slot / foot / earring / sash / cloak / belt / apron item (because theres nothing else craftable / random loot available for those slots)
    Ornament of the magician - that 2 faster casting has stood the test of time, because you just cant get it anywhere else.
    Items with skills for armor slots (shadow dancer leggings, mark of travesty, burgulars bandana etc)

    an artifact weapon has to better than common imbued with complimenting stats. a mod like curse, or bane is essentially worthless unless it outperforms a basic imbued weapon (which we havent seen on any artifact weapon in the game as of yet)

    I think everyone gets the idea. an artifact that actually gets used generally has something that you cant get anywhere else. it doesnt have to be super powerful, as we see in the 2 new artifacts from the expansion that will actually be used. It just has to be a little something special that opens up options.

    So one third of the new artifacts are able to be used. Like i said before, i dont understand the reasoning for this. id love to hear some input from the devs. perhaps they just want to put something in the game for people to collect, look at but not actually use. as thp said that would make sense i suppose if thats the intended role of artifacts. As we all know UO has shifted away from combat, to more of a collectors / dressup game. so i would not be upset if the devs did say they arent really meant to be used, just a momento from the boss encounter. If they do happen to be useful, thats just an extra. thats the only way i can make sense of it.
     
  16. Lord Arm

    Lord Arm Seasoned Veteran

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    well why care about these artifacts, if u make them too good then loot and crafting suffer. no mater what devs do, another area will suffer. and if they give out like candy, they become semi worthless after a few months. dev are spending too much time on things that only give a short period good use while destroying other areas. need to fix things, make things user friendly and fair. so many thing need to be fix, improved on.

    example: right now I'm fighting, have pets out in VvV. I pull up orange VvV bars to attack, soon all the bars have my pets name, cant tell which freakin bar is the person I want to attack ect.
     
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  17. Deraj

    Deraj Sage
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    You're not alone in that thought, and I'd go as far to say it's overpowered and unbalanced.

    Agreed, and it also goes to show a large part of the problem with many artifacts goes beyond their attributes and into the basic utility of the weapon type.

    Named, non-random artifacts should possess attributes above their caps, or attributes not otherwise found on the item type, and cannot otherwise be crafted and come with disadvantages or trade-offs, that can be used to create specialized templates or gear for specialized purposes or functions. How effective these functions are, however, is dependent on whether the gameplay provides a need or a place for them.

    Add to that list Spirit of the Totem, and Hunter's Headdress.
     
  18. Vermin

    Vermin Adventurer

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    I agree on the main thing should be some "point of difference" that is not over powered on it's own, but opens up new options. The key to this for the most part are the slots with only a few items in them.

    The problem with weapons and armour is you either make it best in class (in which case crafters lose out and become irrelevant and normal loot becomes more irrelevant), you make it so that it works in some niche build (this is fine, artifacts for this make sense), has some even more niche "role-playing" aspect to it, or it will be ignored. There is no point hunting out an artifact weapon (to use, not collect) if you can make something as good, if not better. Putting something like "HLD" or skills on them can make them useful and sought after (though balance obviously has to be careful).

    Personally I would look at creating "bulk" artifacts - things where the artifact has a random skill, random resist etc.

    For example - we have the earrings, boot, sash, cloak, robe and pants slots. All of which have few (mostly) low powered items available, the best of which are highly sort after. What if there was a +5 skill item for each relevant skill in each of these slots (all skills you can normally get/imbue +skill bonuses for). For crafters, you could have the same items each with something like +5 success/+5 exceptional success that is normally available on talismans (some caps may need to apply obviously). Gatherer's could have +1 of a certain resource each time you gather with one of these items equipped, or higher special item gathering chance or something similar. The potential would be there for the same slots to have other, single attributes: each could have up to +3 dci,hci or low level damage/spell damage increase, mana decrease, small increments of resists, stamina,hp,mana etc. None of these items on their own would be "best in class", but you could certainly combine the ones you want into new suits and builds (potentially an extra 30 skill points to play with) and open up slots in other areas. Yes, there would need to be balancing to make sure that these work, but the general gist of the idea remains the same - you make a large number of new desirable items, that should have a market similar to the various skill scrolls (though with lower drop rates). Trade ones would be available by trade quests or high level items in the new BOD system they are talking about.

    Another potential big grouping that is more PVM specific would be creating a set of slayers in one of those slots (or the talisman slot). Again, this might throw balance out of whack, but it is another potential option.

    I'm sure there are plenty of other options - but the lack of any chance at a usable reward does make a lot of content unattractive. More artifacts that can be used in actual builds would certainly help.
     
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  19. BeaIank

    BeaIank Babbling Loonie
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    We really lack good options for the pants slot.
    So why not bring in three artie kilts/short pants/pants/skirts that come with the 3HPI flavour, 5 Mana inc flavour or 5 Stam inc flavour with 150 or 255 durability at this new expansion?
    Those are not overly powerful, but will be greatly coveted.
     
  20. Vor

    Vor Grand Inquisitor
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    Pants and short pants take the leg slot. Kilts and skirts do not.
     
  21. BeaIank

    BeaIank Babbling Loonie
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    I am pretty sure the kilt is going at the pants slot:
    pants.jpg pants2.jpg

    Edit: However, the pants and short pants are taking the leg armour slot.
    We have an equipment slot called pants and we can't put pants there.
    @Kyronix, care to elucidate on whether clothing pants will be moved to the proper pants slots or not? :p
     
  22. Vor

    Vor Grand Inquisitor
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    They may go on the same slot on the EC display. But you can wear them both at the same time so they can't be in the same physical slot.

    Hard to see since they're both dyed black. But I have them both on here:

    [​IMG]
     
  23. BeaIank

    BeaIank Babbling Loonie
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    Aye, I have checked on the EC and pants are going on the leg armour slot, not the pants slot.
    Still, we could use an item that would go on the "kilt slot" (since both of our characters are wearing kilts :p) with that kind of attributes.
    They would be highly sought after, specially the 5 mana one, without being overpowered.
     
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  24. Vor

    Vor Grand Inquisitor
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    Yeap. Fully agree on that.
     
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  25. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    agree with most of what you said, except for the slayers.

    currently i feel power creep in pvm is almost to a breaking point. the addition of another full slot on most weapons by having a tally would just blow content out of the water. We already have a few tallies, even those are really too powerful i feel with the weapons we have now.

    If they could go back and make all old content harder, or if the new content is extremely hard, then its a possible option. but even now my pvm weapons dont even need damage increase on them. not needing even a slayer would just make soling content bascially afk mode.
     
  26. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    5 mana would be trivial, a decent little boost. 5 stamina on the other had would be extremely powerful. for the currently un-used "kilt" slot at least. would save minimum 250m gold in a high end suit, with a max of possibly over billion. personally, if it were a kilt slot, i would make a plus 1 stamina item. or possibly 2. 5 in my opinion is much too high, it would let you use 2 more 8 stam pieces in a suit, as well as ditch the corguls sash if you had needed it before to reach the 211 with no stam on jewels.
     
  27. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    On a side note, id like to see more novelty wearables as extremely rare boss drops. glacial shirt. glacial pants. other colors with possibly a few names. or even better a blank slate to add your own title to the clothing slot. This would keep them desireable, because of the personalization the market would most likely never really be flooded with the same named item.
     
  28. Marquis de Sade 209

    Marquis de Sade 209 Journeyman
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    They need a revamp of all of the artifacts. It would certainly add to their value and make most of them useful again.
     
  29. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    You have always been able to wear pants with a skirt or kilt what you CAN'T do is where pants and armor leggings at the same time..... nor can you wear leggings and a leather skirt anymore..... it is either one or the other. Eons ago a female could wear leggings and a leather skirt at the same time. But then they moved the leather skirt to the "pants" slot... now you can't.

    You can always wear a skirt or kilt... with armor leggings.

    Now I'm still in favor of "vanity" slots which would basically be another paperdoll of what you "Intend" for folk to see when they look at your character in the game. So you could wear pants and still have armor on. I would still LOVE to have a costume slot where we could put the goblin ring or fishing pole or the costumes that we have without taking up your weapon slot or ring slot. But maybe that's just me.
     
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  30. Spock's Beard

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    They've erred WAY TOO FAR on the side of worrying about crafters or balance or whatever, and have for years. I can't remember the last time I looked at an artifact and thought "Neat I want that!"

    I mean Jesus, we are now having an entire thread predicated on the premise that maybe the developers don't even expect us to use this garbage, and asking them to come explain to us if they do.
     
  31. Vermin

    Vermin Adventurer

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    Balance will always be the issue, and you may be correct that full slayer talisman sets are a step too far. Talismans are another slot that has a lot of potential though (as there are already some quite powerful items, adding items of similar power but for different skill sets is always an option).
     
  32. Fizzleton

    Fizzleton Journeyman
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    You can also add Doom artis to this list. No-one will even use a hunters any more, and many arti drops were crap even in the "old" days (do you remember the "frostbringer"?)
    To some extend, with the insane intensities on "legendaries/majors", devs seem to have lost track on items. If these loot items are even more powerfull than anything you can craft, something is wrong. I think, they really have to re-balance the whole thing, not only arties, but also loot and crafted items.
     
  33. BobsForApples

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  34. BobsForApples

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    Jumu's Sacred Hide:
    Cape
    Fire eater 10%
    FCR 1
    Fire resist 5%
    Useful for lower cost eater suit. id say about equal with rangers cloak for mages. slightly opens up jewel options if your using imbed as 1 of your jewels. 2 fcr would make this item extremely desireable, possibly even over-powered.


    LETS PUT FC1 ON THIS THING DEVS AND 5DCI OR 5SPDI then it would be worth obtaining and the staff is ok if I can imbue dci and enhance it the rest of the artifacts garbage wish they would make better artifacts than what I could loot off monsters
     
  35. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Why? Why should crafted items be best?
     
  36. Fizzleton

    Fizzleton Journeyman
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    Did I say "best"? Or "better"? "Comparable", just to be able to at least match with some pieces the intensity of legendaries.
     
  37. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Items only come from crafting or monsters. You said:

    I don't know what else I could infer from that statement. If it's better than monster loot, it's best.

    Having crafting produce items that are on par or better than the top end loot makes very little sense. If I can get better loot at home... why hunt monsters? This was a growing problem pre-shame revamp, and that is the whole reason why we have those potentially more powerful items. That said, the rate that you get an item better than an imbued item is preeettty rare. Higher intensity, sure, but rarely with a property spread as good as an imbued item. Honestly, I have given up finding items for my own use, as I have sifted through 1000's (potentially 10's of thousads) of pieces, 100's of artifacts (potentially 1000's) and all I ever keep are shields because they have several unimbuable properties, and on rare occasions jewelry.

    With the ability to craft exactly what you want templates have become whittled down into precise parameters so now most templates require certain stats on their gear, and the odds of finding that exact spread from reforging is hard, and from monsters is very rare. There is absolutely no call for crafting to be stronger. There IS a call however for non-crafted items to get a boots, specifically the items in question: artifacts.

    IMO artifacts should be the best you can get. They should be "wow" items, and they should do unique and powerful things. They should be hard to get, and/or they should be impermanent. Of course I think everything should be impermanent because the game just runs so much better that way, but I know where the populace stands on that one.

    The artifacts we get are 90% unusable in a modern suit because of being so underpowered or slotted with such random non-synergistic properties. That's a problem IMO.
     
    #37 Uvtha, Sep 22, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
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  38. Fizzleton

    Fizzleton Journeyman
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    Maybe you are completely right, and maybe I am completely outdated concerning todays crafting possibilities. I don't ask what effort you have to make to get those pieces you are talking about, therefore - ok.
     
  39. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    I think it would be bad ass if they came out with an eye patch for a head slot. I don't even care if it was a regular item that can be crafted and imbued.
     
  40. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    *shrug* All you need to pvm is imbued gear wich is easy and cheap to make, unless you want to solo bosses. Even then you can do most with just imbued stuff if you have the right template.
     
  41. petemage

    petemage Seasoned Veteran

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    LOL, it's hard to find words for that junk. That stuff is really going to bring back masses of old vets on Steam. You just have to believe.
     
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  42. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    To be fair I don't think a flood of mega items would do that either.
     
  43. Lord GOD(GOD)

    Lord GOD(GOD) Lore Keeper

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    I would like them to remove all artifacts and replica drops from the game. Update all of the locations and mechanisms for those drops (especially Doom gauntlet - aka the vast halls of empty pointless nothing), have a minimum of 5 of every boss spawn with 1 guaranteed top drop on each set of 5. Remove ALL the anti Bard code from the game. Add random encounter Champ Spawns in many wilderness places and the central room in Doom with up to 110 powerscrolls on all facets. Increase the drop rate of 20's and Replicas in Fel. Add revised artifacts in with increased drop rates and give the old drop rates to new super rare 'Legendary' versions, like an Orny with a random Mage skill up to 20 points, DCI, or E.P. Make area versions of Provoke and Discord for low to mid level spawn. Add (in one of the many barren waste lands of UO) new player specific regions with increased gold and drops, and gates from Haven, restricted use of pets and templates to prevent high level players using it, like a stat loss effect upon entering if over a certain skill level. Imbuable Halloween Costumes as weapons/Mage Weapons. I'd also like to see a reason for monsters actually having loot, random city invasions, with waves, with a finale of some big monster (event level) killing a cleanup guy or a Brit library guy (for example) then having a random drop from their pool.
     
  44. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    The Costumes just need a Vanity slot on the paperdoll. This slot would only apply 1 item could be anything including the costumes and this slot wouldn't apply any properties just the "look" of whatever you put there would override whatever you are using in that slot. This way you could put the ring, Fishing pole, boots, or costume there if you like and still be able to use a real weapon, boots, or ring etc... THAT is what we need for that. Infact you'd even be able to put another gorget there and not look like the bearded lady if you wanted to get the benefit of a mempo without looking like a goon.
     
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  45. Lord GOD(GOD)

    Lord GOD(GOD) Lore Keeper

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    lol, spot on.
     
  46. Thrakkar

    Thrakkar Slightly Crazed
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    Yeah, but the root cause is the flawed combat system. If a melee combat char has to spend a very slow regenerating resource, which usually was intended just for casters (and in almost every other game is), something is wrong. If we neither have a fast regenerating resource or some ability to get back mana, this just leaves leeching...
    Should we ever be in the situation, that we don't have to rely on those item properties, Aftifacts would get much more valuable and powerful withnout even having to modify/update them. But changing that would mean a major combat overhaul. It should be pretty safe to say, that this will never happen...

    Same with AI/DS (no pun intended :p). Since melee chars don't have reliable combat mechanics, to boost their damage (well some do to certain useful extents, like paladins), people have to utilize item properties for that as well...
     
  47. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    New arties on test are pretty good. Your welcome? :p (yes, im going to assume this thread i made was the reason we got some decent arties this time.) :danceb:

    first version cloak was better because of fire eater (poison eater just doesnt work) but other than that most of them arent half bad.