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[Imbuing] A few more questions ...

Discussion in 'UO Craftsman' started by lancelot99, Oct 26, 2011.

  1. lancelot99

    lancelot99 Guest

    Following the last posts i made, i will go hunting with my tamer and save all items (weapons/armour/jewelry) to unvavel ..

    a few questions


    1, i have a crafter already (full 700+ points) , so make a new crafter with arms lore and imbuing?
    or is it better to stick arms lore on a char with blacksmithing? (i could use a soulstone to swap around skills)

    2 , when gaining points to use the queens forge (once i'm 120) is it total points per char or per account? i don't recon my crafter would fare well fighting monsters hehe
     
  2. Percivalgoh

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    You want to use arms lore when you are making anything other than filling BODs. The queens forge points is per character. Some players stone on skills to kill things then take them off when they reach the maximum. My imbuer had magery inscription and alchemy to kill things with but really I reached maximum points far before I gmed any of those skills
     
  3. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Personally, I put Imbuing on my secondary crafter (one with carpentry, alchemy, tinker, and enough blacksmith & Tailor to make all the add-ons, with half his magery from jewelry, talisman and a Tome of Lost Knowledge and music solely from equipment). It's hard enough fitting 120 smith, 120 tailor and 100 arms lore onto one character as it is (though I still manage to keep enough combat skills on that primary crafter to hunt things up to normal dragons, for leather).

    MY suggestion for gaining loyalty on your Imbuer (it's character-linked, though you just need one character, who will do the placing, to be able to place a Ter Mur house, once the loyalty is high enough), is as follows. It also gets you a bunch of resources to donate to the library or use with your tailor, decent gold, and items to unravel.

    0. Make sure your training character is human - you can use a race change token to go gargoyle (or quest to go elf) when you're done. Humans gain imbuing faster, can carry more weight, and get more leather from corpses.

    1. put as much magery as you can on the Imbuer, temporarily, including from equipment. You can get 45-65 points that way, depending on how much you want to invest:
    +15 bracelet,
    +15 ring (or +20 Crystalline Ring dropped by the Shimmering Effusion; too expensive for the effort),
    +15 Spellbook (Tome of Lost Knowledge from Treasures of Tokuno, which are fairly cheap, or the Undead slayer Grimoire from a few years ago Halloween, which are NOT cheap),
    +5 Treatise on Alchemy talisman (which you can get at the library, donating leather & ingots).
    (very optional Mark of the Travesty for +10 more; not something I'd look for, myself)

    2. Acquire a Butcher's War Cleaver, or a Harvester's blade, to cut corpses with. The BWC is a smith craftable requiring a recipe from Heartwood or Sanctuary. The HB was a rare item from the turkey events, where you traded a plucked Turkey rare drop to a butcher NPC to get the blade.

    3. If you have enough magery to cast EVs, you're set; otherwise, buy (or make) a pile of EV scrolls and take them with you.

    4. Take the imbuing trainee NE of the Royal City, towards the north corner of the map - but don't go all the way to the top (too much void stuff there on many shards, and you'd never be able to take on an anlorvaglem). Instead, stay in the area of the flight tower and bridge, along the east side of the river, over to the east (and maybe a few screens south - you don't need to go far enough to be near the village).

    5. Use EVs and/or blade spirits to farm toxic sliths, and use the BWC or harvester blade to harvest horned leather from them. The respawn time there around the flight tower is really fast, though eventually you'll have to free-range to the south and east a little, from their spawning at the far ends of their range. If you see any large void creatures (look like escapees from Doom, or terethans, bog things, etc. done in void color) run away and hope you aren't followed (EVs aren't enough for them, and some have 100% energy resist). Gather loot to unravel as well.

    6. The leather can be used to go toward the talisman above (if a human, will take about 4000-5000 toxic sliths, 5000-6000 for other races; the lower number if using the harvester's blade), at 10 (elf, garg), 11 (human with BWC, or elf/garg with HB), or 13 (human with HB) per slith. There's also quests for the normal and toxic slith in town (As well as for the boura that will invariably wander into your way), that give imbuing ingredients as well as more stuff to unravel. The regular slith give regular leather. Not only do the Toxic slith have one of the best horned leather ratios per amount of effort needed, they also have pretty much the best Queen loyalty ratios as well, so they are well worth the effort. Suggest bringing bags of sending for the leather & gold, and ride a beetle to haul back bags of loot (loot into bags, but keep bags on ground (or set them down when not in use) to keep from going overweight).
     
  4. Percivalgoh

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    I was able to kill the toxic sliths with bladespirits although it's both more difficult and takes longer to do so. Toxic sliths are fast so if you have a mount it might be good to help outrun the toxic sliths incase you miss invising yourself. ALso toxic sliths poison you so it's a good idea to have some orange petals and greater cures handy. Since my Imbuer character is an alchemist I carried invis potions and greater confusion potions. I used the invis potions when I was out of mana (no meditation) and couldn't cast invis and the confusion potions to break targeting on the toxic sliths that are targeting me which would give me enough to time to recast a blade or EV. At first I carried blade spirit scrolls and dispel scrolls then EV and dispel scrolls. I dispelled to keep the blade or EV from killing the healers in the area.
     
  5. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Really? Why?

    I doubt.
     
  6. Percivalgoh

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    They gain it easier than gargoyles because gargs get a bonus so doing the cheapest imbues will take a humans skill higher than a garg. So I guess if you have two characters doing the exact same thing a human and a garg the human will gain more skill for the time spent so faster.
     
  7. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    You can get with the cheapest imbues from 60 to 120 with a garg on the Queen's forge... with a proper item.

    I believe if they both do a 50% chance imbue for 1-19 luck or 1-3 lrc they gain equal skill for the same imbue attempts.
     
  8. Percivalgoh

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    Well according to this guide gargs have a greater chance to succeed at imbuing at the same imbue which means humans will gain at cheaper imbues so don't know where you get your info from. Queens forge can add a greater chance of success which raises the expense of imbues needed more and doesn't help training. It's quicker to train on a home forge or one that lowers your chance of success so you can imbue cheaper imbues and gain skill.
     
  9. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    A garg will get the same - 50% - chance of succes, just needs an item with a slightly higher intensity. And imbuing 1% luck costs the same 1+1 independing on item intensity.


    Imbued item intensity - it's the main factor that lowers my chance to success...
     
  10. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    By the way accoding to this guide using exceptional crafted item give you higher bonus than race + queen's forge:
    HUMAN + Exc item + home forge = 186.7
    GARG + NPC item + Queen's forge = 173.3
    But every training guide suggests you to use exceptionally crafted plates.
     
  11. There are probably thousands of ways to do this. Just have to find what works best for your play style.

    I used looted jewelery from miasma once I got above the spot where I was no longer gaining from unravelling. With Pinco's UI showing intensity in the enhanced client, first target low-level rings and bracelets, then mid-level than high level jewelery to enhance. I started out enhancing with luck, then changed as I needed for skill gains, all the way to 120. This was MUCH cheaper than using crafter platemail and just as fast.
     
  12. Percivalgoh

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    Howevern you want to put it ...Same items = not same skill gain
     
  13. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Yes, but why do you say that a human gains better? If this items is optimal for gargs then a garg gains better.
     
  14. Percivalgoh

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    When I switched to a gargoyle the imbues I was doing didn't work very well anymore for skill gain. You can chose whatever you want but for a gargoyle you have to chose a higher level imbue which is more expensive or you will gain less.
     
  15. Gorbs

    Gorbs Sage
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    The gains are the same whether you're using gargoyle, human, or elf if you are using imbues that have the right target difficulty. In theory it's cheaper to use a human/elf because you stay in the right target difficulty range longer without having to increase intensity.
     
  16. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Percivalgoh
    just combine this
    and this
     
  17. Percivalgoh

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    Ok so you did what you did but that doesn't prove anything. Did you also do the same thing as another race? This argument is going no where. Should be Basara's argument anyway LOL I really don't know the answer. Just have a theory LOL as do you.
     
  18. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Same item - higher difficulty for human

    therefore, cheaper imbues, and it DOES add up.

    Personally, my training took around 120-150 jingasa, hit with 20 imbues each, between where I stopped unraveling as my primary gain method.

    Done with a Gargoyle, this would have probably taken 2 or more additional gems per imbue, from having to hit a higher target imbue value for the exact same gain chance, and probably 1 more residue per imbue.

    The additional difficulty isn't as much in the gain chance, as it is in getting all the additional ingredients to do the training.

    So, figure about 2400-3000 gems and 1000-1500 more residue. Residue is easy, but the gems, if you got them ALL at default price, would set you back an additional 120k gold - more likely, 200-300k.

    This might be fine for an established account, but for someone starting out, that's a LOT of gold.

    It's an especially high cost SP where gem prices are TRIPLE - so about a million gold in gems - and there's no way to bring the prices back down other than one of the publishes that reset all NPCs, unless you want to run to ilshenar and hope you don't get PKed buying from a vagabond at one of the random gypsy camps that spawn and despawn - which will still probably set you back 400k.
     
  19. Something else that they should consider is which race they want to be in the end. If they want to be a gargoyle, either for the imbuing bonuses or maybe to use the throwing skill, then it may actually cost less to start out as a gargoyle.

    If you want to change race later, you need a race change token. If you already have a token, then it's a non-issue. If you need to buy a token to change races, the token sell for 1.5-2 million gold, which is a lot more than the 200-300k for extra gems that a human/elf might cost.
     
  20. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    If you using crafting items for training then the last imbue which you do 18-19 times per item will be the same.

    Also a new player could save much more money by not using crafting items for training.
     
  21. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    What you said makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.

    Yes, the last 18-19 times will be the same imbue repeated. That's part of the point I was making.

    THOSE ARE THE ONES THAT COST MORE FOR THE GARGOYLE, to achieve the same difficulty!

    You just countered my argument by saying the equivalent of "the reason why it's black is that it's so bright white you can't look at it". (does impression of AFLAC duck listening to Yogi Berra)

    To achieve the same difficulty chance (And therefore the same gain chance), the first (and second, if a 3-part imbue) will be relatively unchanged for all races.

    ALL OTHER IMBUES (the last one that's repeated until 20 successes hit), will have to be about 10-20% higher total intensity for a gargoyle, to have to same gain chance as a human or elf.

    That ALWAYS amounts to a 1-3 normal gem increase PER IMBUE, as well as a 0-2 residue increase per imbue.

    That amounts to 18 to 57 additional gems per item (minimum 1 @ 18 imbues, maximum 3 @ 19), depending on the property & item being added, and as much as 38 additional residue.

    So, a difference of thousands of additional gems and about half as much additional residue, for the same skill gains.

    And, yes, a new player COULD theoretically gain more cheaply by imbuing loot - it would just take a LOT longer to do it.

    The recommended training method, on the other hand, is very quick.

    1. Smith with ASH & talisman sufficient to be 100% exceptional: select jingasa, select make number ->20
    (1 minute, including arranging the 20 in a container to where each is easily targeted, if in the CC, or using the freeform container in EC).

    2. Open imbuing gump, select first item, first property (luck), and 89 or 90 intensity (89 is slightly cheaper):
    (15 seconds)

    3. Select imbue last property and target next 19 items to repeat
    (roughly 1 minute to do all 19)

    4. on item 20, after imbuing the luck, select imbue last item, switch to the second property and intensity, imbue it on item #20
    (10-20 seconds, depending on success chance)

    ----

    (skip steps 5 & 6 if only imbuing 2 properties)

    5. Go back through the other 19 items in reverse order, using imbue last property
    (1-2 minutes total, depending on the success chance)

    6. now back on item 1, Select Last item & change to the 3rd property to imbue
    (10-15 seconds)

    -----

    7. use imbue last on the item until you hit 20 successes, then start going through the other 19 items with last property, then last item, until all 20 done.
    (5-10 minutes)

    8. when all done, unravel container to get residue back to use for next batch, which will have a slightly higher total intensity imbued as the last step than the previous batch (by either adding the 3rd imbued property, or upping the last property imbued's value). In fact, you might gain so fast that you may want to take an extra 10-15 seconds during the middle and adjust the last property up one or two steps (if advancing 2 steps costs the same as only going up one, go for the higher difficulty at same cost).

    Note that you are making FOUR-property items in this method (including the Mage Armor), and the Mage Armor allows you to not waste an imbue on a first property you have no chance to gain on.

    Total: 10-15 minutes for 400 successful imbues.

    *********

    With only doing loot items, you'll have to change the target imbues for each item, based on their intensity and existing properties.

    Your costs and chances to gain will be all over the place, unless you spend more time sorting the stuff by base intensity, than you would have to do the recommended alternative of making the items on a set pattern & schedule.

    The items also don't come with a free 100% in one property already (like the jingasa do), and could require an extra imbue just to get to being the equivalent of one before doing any further imbues to try to gain.

    You'd be better off, time and resource wise, just unraveling most of it for residue (and gains), or smelting it for ingots to make the Jingasa.

    However, with a truly neophyte crafter with no outside help (extremely rare these days), the piecemeal "imbue loot for gains" might be an option, as it gives the person time to accumulate the gems from mining & monster loot. Just be prepared for it to take weeks or months to reach 120, instead of days (if not hours).





    Last I checked, if one upgrades to SA, you still get race change tokens (is it 2 or 3?). So, needing a token to change after training should really only be an issue to someone starting a new account, and even those may get the tokens (not started a new SA account to find out).

    You'll save enough gold training as a human, vs. as a gargoyle, to BUY a race change token, if you don't have one, on most shards. The tokens might be 1.5 to 2 million on some shards on vendors in Luna, but I've seen them go unsold on my shard for 250k (from working at an in-game auction, where things like that often end up when they don't sell on vendors after too long). For that matter, most established accounts by this point have at least one soulstone, so you could train it up on a human and transfer it to a gargoyle when done, with the only limiter being the requirement of both being scrolled to 120 (and, if you want to play stonecrafting runic roulette, you'll have plenty of scrolls to combine into multiple 120s).
     
  22. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    I hope this imbue takes 1 mr + 1 gem only at any skill level?

    Please explain me, why imbue that costs 1+1 for a human at any skill level could cost more for a garg?
     
  23. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    We're both right and wrong - it comes down to methodology.

    In your scenario, the second imbue will still always cost more for a garg than a human, even if the last is manipulated (by changing the second imbue) to stay at 1+1 for all times. There will always be a higher total cost for a gargoyle for at least one of the imbues, to compensate for their bonuses.

    Done right, the losses I mentioned would probably be 1/10 of what I stated, at the cost of about 10% more training time, using smaller batches of items. The more often you change the second imbue to lower the value of the last, repeating imbue, the less items you can do as a group, and also the longer time it will take because you're doing things in smaller batches.

    The smaller the batches, the less difference between gargoyles and non-gargs - but there still always is that one more costly imbue per item, whether it is one repeated or not repeated. you also risk pushing the second imbue up so high that the increased failure chance on imbue #2 will make much of the benefit of using the cheapest last imbue be lost.

    Then again, there's an oddity that I noticed with my testing and several others, compared to each other.

    Some people seemed to get best gains in the high 50%s success chance.
    Others (like myself) seemed to get best gains in the low or mid 40%s, and had trouble even getting GGS gains in what was supposed to be the "optimal" range.

    There was no logical explanation for it. It's one of the reasons I gave up on giving more than rough guidelines as to what people should use to train.

    If you're gaining good on the high-percentage builds, then the higher 2nd, minimal 3rd cost imbue would work best for you - but you'll need to prepare only 1-5 items at a time, instead of 20 (as you'll constantly be having to use higher and higher value second imbues).

    If you are like me, and gains seemed to disappear at >45% success chance (and actual success seemed to run at a LOT lower chance than what was displayed), making the 2nd imbue more likely to succeed seemed to work better, at the cost of doing some 1/2 or 1/3 imbues to keep the target chance of success about the same.

    In other words, the system is really screwed up.

    I really do need to clear things up a bit (in that keeping the last imbue as low a cost as possible is desirable).
     
  24. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    I agree - the second imbue will cost more. And I have 55-60% chance of success with it so this difference will be doubled.

    I prefer spend (at everage) 12 gems for second imbue (55-60%) and ~35 gems for the last 18 imbue (50-55%). Because if the last imbue take 2 gems each attempt then I spend ~70 gems for 18 success. This is much higher even if I save few gems on the second imbue.
    Also I can reduce my losts from the second imbue by doing it on Queen's forge.


    I believe but not sure that the closer to 50% is the better. But it seems that 42-62% range does pretty fine.
    I didn't always get GGS gains when I should too. I suppose that there're wrong numbers in the table on this site.