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A few questions

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Clx-, Jun 20, 2011.

  1. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    Sorry this isn't really related to current UO, I don't play it anymore. Just a few questions for people more knowledgeable than myself, would really appreciate any answers:

    1. What in particular about the AOS release in 2003 was bad for roleplay communities? I'm sure I used to know the answer to this question, but I've not played for three years+ and AOS release was over 8 years ago anyway...

    2. Do people still play a crafter/merchant as their 'primary' character in UO? If not, when did this end, and why?

    3. What were the initial and long term attractions to being a crafter in UO as a primary playstyle? All that I remember people giving as a reason were the social aspects pre-trammel, being at Brit forge, etc. After UOR crafters mostly became a 'support' character for people's main profession, I believe?

    4. Has crafting ever been as profitable as other aspects of UO, like PvM? If so, when was this, and was profit a big reason behind people picking this playstyle? I know this possibly overlaps with question 3 slightly...
     
  2. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    I didn't like those questions, reminded me of 'back when' when UO was fun, made me sad.
     
  3. Ludes

    Ludes Babbling Loonie
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    AoS was the expansion that brought all the new armour and weapon properties.. The "Resists" were broken down into the 5 categories we use today. Roleplayers weren't happy about the new systems because it was pretty much impossible to stay in character while discussing "70's" suits and LRC gear.
    One of the main reasons I was unhappy about it was because I had worked my main character almost two years to get a 7x GM and overnight anyone with "magic resist armour"
    was just as good as any GM.
    Crafting was really big back then.. many people I knew had no combatant characters at all.. Smiths in particular were in big demand, even after AoS.. Runic hammers, enhancing, etc.. Tailors were popular. Vendor houses were big moneymakers back then.. Potions were used a lot especially in PvP so Alchemist were needed. Everyone had potion kegs in their house those days.. I knew one guy that just gathered reagents and hides. He made pretty good gold.

    I just recently came back to the game myself but it seems to me that vendors still make pretty good money.. If you can keep them stocked.. There is still some crafting going on.. Imbuing is popular cause thats how you get the fancy magic "make me bad instantly" armour now. I've found some good vendors on Cats, Carpenters, Miners, Tailors and Alchemist are all still around. Tamers still seem popular.
    So I guess I'd say Yes, crafters both in the past and now can be very profitable, as can be any character... it all depends on how you play. Are you the laid back type who wants to set your own agenda? or are you the go after the gold ring type that will always find a way to profit? Ultima has always been cool for me just because there is no "right" way to play.
     
  4. Percivalgoh

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    I have no clue about roleplaying communitites and AOS. I think there are still some people who play a crafter as a primary character but it's likely way less than long ago. I became a solo player following the changes that allowed players to farm better weapons and armor than I could make and even with the bulk order deed system I was at a disadvantage to players who had much more time than me. I originally liked being a crafter because it was a needed and important job and quit because it was no longer that. I still do crafting just for my own characters as do many others these days.
     
  5. Woodsman

    Woodsman Guest

    Item insurance wasn't a hit among a lot of crafters.
     
  6. S.P.A

    S.P.A Journeyman
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    It wasn't AOS that killed the roleplay communities. They had already been ripped apart by the Felucca/Trammel split.

    Prior to that, there were well-established RP communities throughout what was to become Felucca. They RP'd extensively and, in some cases, united to fend off PKs.

    The day Trammel opened, most of the RP communities tried to move to Trammel. But it was pot luck if you got the same location, the same houses... and if you didn't, well that started ripping the heart out of some communities.

    Furthermore, some didn't want to move - those with reds on their accounts, or who preferred the Felucca lifestyle, warts and all.

    And the final nail, at the time, was that you couldn't easily go from Felucca to Trammel or back. Had the current moongate system been implemented at the time, maybe it wouldn't have been so bad, but back then, it was effectively a permanent choice to live in Felucca or Trammel.

    So many RP communities were torn apart at that point. I remember the forlorn husks of the famous RP towns in now-Felucca on Europa after the split, gradually fading away as the houses dropped.

    All the stuff in Felucca had the Seer-enhanced touches, nothing in Trammel did. It was a tragedy.

    Yes, but mostly just for fun, or sheer stubbornness. The pre-AOS world, where you could just go out and buy a replacement armour suit or weapon set crafted by your local GM smith, was a simpler place. It was quick for crafters to make what you wanted, it was simple, there was far less choice, and most people knew exactly what they wanted.

    AOS turned this into something of a mathematical nightmare - and it has been getting more complex ever since, with Runics, Imbuing and so on.

    For those of us old enough to remember pen-and-paper roleplaying, this was the equivalent of the difference between a roleplayer and a ruleplayer.

    A ruleplayer was a mathematical & statistical expert who worked everything out by formulae and logic and picked the statistical best, no matter the character.

    A roleplayer would wear plate or leather because it fitted their character's persona.

    So whereas in the pre-AOS world you ran out and bought a plate or a heavy or light archer suit, or leather, which someone could make for you in minutes, AOS made you think of 5 resists, plus all the attributes and randomness, meaning it takes hours or days to craft the piece of a person's dreams.

    For non-crafters, it took the simplicity away - you could no longer just run up to the nearest forge and order an archer suit and get it in 5 minutes. And that leads into your next question...

    Being a crafter, not just of weapons & armour, but a carpenter, tailor, tinker, was a community service and some people like doing that. They have various reasons - artistic, fear of combat, sense of duty, really, who cares why, people enjoy(ed) doing it!

    I just liked having a fully-stocked shop with one of everything any craft skill could make, and more than one of the popular ones.

    I remember Photek dropping by the Chaos Shrine Tavern in now-Felucca one day and ordering 30 kegs of various potions; I enjoyed making them, I enjoyed having regular customers, I enjoyed the symbiosis. When the Tavern was besieged by Hatchet Harry & his friends, I remember some of my more violent customers coming to try and drive them away.

    But as you say, after AOS basically almost everyone made their own crafter so they could spend / waste the hours making exactly the complex specification of whatever combination of resists and attributes they wanted. It simply wasn't practical / fun to order those from other people's crafters any more.

    Not really, no. It was good to cover your costs and make a moderate profit, but you'd always make more hunting high-end monsters.

    Almost all crafters had it in their soul. It's a roleplaying thing. Making something and being proud of it. Seeing your name on someone else's sword. Seeing your furniture in someone else's house. It's an ego trip :thumbup:

    But most of all, knowing someone else appreciated it.
     
  7. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    Thanks guys. S.P.A specifically for the in-depth answers. Hatchet Harry! I'd forgotten him.

    I'm fully aware of the impact of the Trammel/Fel split on RP communities(and on everyone really)but I do remember a lot of complaints from RPers as regards to AoS as well. Just wondering what those were. I've been writing a lot about UO development/history lately when bored on night shifts(pathetic I know!)and from UOR onwards I only remember things from a PvP perspective as that's basically all I engaged in for my last years in the game.
     
  8. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Clx, since I started playing on Siege a few months ago, I'm finding that my crafter is my main character and my other characters there support her by gathering resources for crafting.
     
  9. Percivalgoh

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    originally I became a crafter to make gold from npc. I could make 6 gold per ingot doing tinkering making butchers knives, so my main character was a tank mage miner/tinker. They made changes to tinkering so it was no longer as profitable and I started selling ingots to a friend at 8 gold per ingot. He told me he made more than that from doing blacksmithing making tear shaped kite shields. So I began the arduous journey to become a smith. Long ago the standard was GM smithed items. It was great to be a functioning player integral to the system.
     
  10. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    How did UO get so disconnected from this...
    Thanks.
     
  11. Raptor85

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    Fully agree with S.P.A. 's post. I missed the initial AOS launch so this comes from a player who left on ren and came back just before samurai empire.

    First thing I noticed post-aos is that simply playing the game was something you could only do after spending enough time farming resources, before a blacksmith could simply craft you a sword and that's all you needed for quite some time, at this point such a sword was completely useless, you couldn't even defend yourself with it. I guess I would call it a raise in the "cost, in time, per death" (whether it be insurance or the armor/weapons)

    Second thing, though it wasn't as bad as it is now, was that with plate and leather made to have the same resists, you were put at such a severe disadvantage in plate or bone that everyone ended up looking like a robed mage, the unique outfits, character styles /etc were all gone for the most part, it made the world feel a bit less unique, more like a forced path. The abundance of borg cube houses replacing old towers and plaster houses didn't help with immersion much either, and NOTHING is as hideous as the waterfall faced houses.

    My biggest issue though, was that ever since AOS pvm is essentially FORCED unless you happen to have someone else spending the hours and hours paying for your character, before you could just pick up a rusty old sword someone was tossing out, and be a bounty hunter.

    AOS = Age of the Spreadsheet
     
  12. Percivalgoh

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    I don't know the reasons but I still enjoy playing UO today just that the experience is different. Before while I may have loved it more, it was also worse for me as a real life person. The changes allowed me to function better in real life.
     
  13. Siteswap

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    This does bring back memories. Back then I played on Drach and my armour and weapons were trusted to a Smith named Krupp Stahl, who I could always find parked up at north Britain forge. Im sure he must have been online 23 hours a day as he was always there when I needed him. I always had to wait patiently in line for his services though. I wore a suit of Valorite plate back then, crafted by Krupp. It was so rare that people used to stop and compliment me on it if I bumped into them out in the wilderness or a dungeon. I miss those days...
     
  14. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    Thanks. My memories exactly. A real part of the UO magic was that kind of interaction, everyone had their role in the community. UO was a world in a way games like WoW never have and never will be. UO's demise really sped up when it tried to imitate their success in subscriber numbers, just becoming a poor imitation of a monster-bash MMO instead of staying with what it did best.

    The reason I'm interested, by the way, is that I'm just thinking back over my UO 'career' and trying to work out if the magic ingredient and special feeling from the 'old days' of the game could have continued if the game was developed in a different manner from UO:R expansion onwards. I also want to factor in the good parts of UO:R, AoS, etc. Even SE & ML, although I'm 99% certain that there's nothing I like from those expansions.
     
  15. Santa Claus

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    1)
    Can only talk in view of european rp communities.

    Biggest problem with AOS was that most of the community agreed only to use GM crafted stuff and those resists are lacking for normal gameplay.

    Adding in Powerscrolls and more and more damaging skills did not really help balancing things out.

    2)
    Yes, because they like it? People play Farmville in the millions so why not crafters?

    3)
    I guess community, ask a crafter

    4)
    No, resource gathering is lots more profitable than any crafting could be.
     
  16. Mook Chessy

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    I have been playing UO since 1998 and the only constant has been change.

    WOW killed UO...it had nothing to do with any expansion, trust me I saw it first hand.

    Let me list the games I remember

    DAOC, Star Wars, LOTR and a ton of other games, you would have a guild mate disappear for a few weeks then they would show up in rw/ts/Vent and say I was off playing X but it sucked so I came back to UO.

    Well the truth is they didn’t come back from WOW...


    I myself love uo and have never even tried another game...cant imagine anything better.
     
  17. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    Incorrect. I started in May 1998 and played until early 2008. What killed UO was terrible development decisions. UO had it's niche and would have still continued to thrive even to this day if taken down the correct course. Obviously it's easy to say this in hindsight, but I think we can all agree that UO has been terribly handled almost since the beginning.
     
  18. Ludes

    Ludes Babbling Loonie
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    I think it started going downhill when Garriot and Co. sold it to EA. The original inventors of the game had the same mindset as most of us.. AND they played the game. I'll never forget the day LB was giving a speech and some guy jumped up on the rampart and PK'd him. He had forgotten to turn his invulnerability on. EA is a big successful company run by big successful businessman who have absolutely no clue about playing.
     
  19. This be dead on balls accurate!!
    Devs killed it because they were stupid, hard headed, didnt listen to players "wants" and thought they "knew" it all as to UO's direction!
    The division of UO was bad!! (tramms)
    I hate/hated pvp, but being divided from even part of the interaction was just bad!
    There had to have been a better way, yet we the players never got to evaluate any "choices"! Bad bad devs!!
     
  20. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    It's true that being owned by a huge company like EA did kill UO, because the people making the decisions just see numbers on a spreadsheet and make decisions based on that, whereas a small company actually takes logical steps based upon improving on their product, but EA owned Origin prior to UO even being released. Garriot sold to them in 1992, or something.
     
  21. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    You're definitely right. Making Trammel a mirror of Felucca has to be the worst decision ever made in the history of MMO's. Even if subscriber numbers improved after it, there's no doubt that this change is the main cause of the destruction of the UO we loved. The game was still great afterwards, but not a patch on it's former self, even though lots of other improvements were made they were still overshadowed by this.
     
  22. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    Back on topic - was this it? Could you explain any further please? Powerscrolls were added in p16 by the way, not AOS. It's probably the European perspective that I'm remembering as I played Europa at this time. Anyone got any input from any other RP communities?
     
  23. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Ultima Online (UO) is a graphical massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG), released on September 24, 1997,[2] by Origin Systems.

    The company was founded in 1983 by brothers Richard Garriott and Robert Garriott, their father Owen and Chuck Bueche after Richard had terminated his contract with Sierra On-Line to publish the third part in Richard's Ultima series, Ultima III: Exodus.[citation needed]

    In September 1992, Electronic Arts acquired the company

    Looks like EA owned Origin for 5 yrs before UO was released. People need to get thier facts right.
     
  24. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    EA owned origin, but Origin still maintained control of all design as a nearly independent internal studio until Richard Garriott left.

    This is generally how the studios EA/Activision/etc.... all work, it's essentially still it's own company just reporting to EA at first. EA is kinda like "the thing" from john carpenter, everyone is normal at first, but as soon as it becomes profitable it destroys everyone, absorbs them, and produces horrible abominations.
     
  25. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
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    the best was running around naked with dp'd weapons chasing people :danceb:
     
  26. Ludes

    Ludes Babbling Loonie
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    Your right I shouldn't have said "when they sold it to EA".
    I guess what I meant was when EA started taking an active hand in it.
    It's just a fact of life... whenever "real" money starts becoming involved in anything, then the business type people take over. And they aren't big gamers.
     
  27. Santa Claus

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    I know that powerscrolls preceeded AOS, but the effect on damage was cumulative. Less resists with higher damage output results in sucky gameplay.

    AOS in itself did not hurt the rp communities as they sort of decided to ignore the crappy parts of it. It divided the players though into casuals and determined players and most casuals dropped away.

    AOS was just the first big step to fully itembased gameplay and the following expansions sadly built on it.

    If you look for the downfall of UO then look at the competition (over 200 MMOs), the work EA put into graphical updates and gameplay (UO's AI and graphics are ...), and it still costs as much or more than the AAA+ games out there (WOW cost me the same as UO on month to month basis, LOTR was offered cheaper and most of the rest ist f2p and I could pay as much as I want)
     
  28. Percivalgoh

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    Uo isn't dead yet.
     
  29. Santa Claus

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    [YOUTUBE]4vuW6tQ0218[/YOUTUBE]

    All is well, it is just resting
     
  30. Ludes

    Ludes Babbling Loonie
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    Dang Santa, you must carry a loaded Monty on your hip.
     
  31. Mook Chessy

    Mook Chessy Certifiable
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    Do you really think that you know what is/was best for UO now and in the future?

    People say to listen to the payers...the same players who can't or wont agree on anything?

    What one person hates in UO another loves...the fact that you are here on these very boards speaks volumes as to how much of an effect this game had and continues to have on you.

    Why not open up an account and try it, I think High Seas (which I do not own) is the perfect expansion for the RP type player.

    Guess my point is that if all the people that quit, yet still haunt these boards, still played maybe UO would be a better place.
     
  32. Short answers:
    1. Prior to AOS, UO was about COMMUNITY. The AOS crew turned it into an item-based, VERSUS game, whether PvP, PvE, PvM, PV whatever, and made insurance so cheap that there was no longer any risk whatsoever.
    2. No. The current UO is a third-person, 2d fighting game with a little crafting thrown in.
    3. Respect. Pride. A sense of accomplishment. Making friends. People appreciating your work on their behalf.
    There was a real sense of pride in having your name on a lot of people's armor and weapons, people really appreciated getting their stuff repaired. You could walk around places that other people wouldn't dare, without combat skills, because even most reds wouldn't bother you, they knew they would need their stuff fixed or new stuff made someday, and you would remember them. I remember mining north of Minoc, a red attacked me, one of his friends stopped him, told him to leave me alone, attacking blacksmiths wasn't very smart.
    4. I'm not sure. After I finally managed to GM Blacksmithy, I opened a shop east of Britain, and I enjoyed running it. I did move to Vesper beach in Trammel, because most of the non-PvP people left Felucca, and it was no longer safe to run a shop there. I had been ganked recalling home exactly once before Trammel opened, but it became an everyday event, every time I recalled home after Trammel. I even sat at the Brit smiths for a while before Trammel opened. People would stand patiently in line waiting to get their stuff fixed, or bring all the materials to make a new set of armor. Some tipped good, some didn't tip at all. I made a lot at the shop, but sitting at the brit smith wasn't about profit, it was a community service and something that you did because people needed their equipment repaired and really appreciated it. If my blacksmith character recalled in, and nobody was there, I would just stay there a while until somebody else dropped by.

    Now, the long answer to #1:
    1. Even after Trammel, it was an online WORLD, where there were a few pure fighters, but there were a lot of treasure hunters, blacksmiths, tailors, miners, shopkeepers, militia, people who did little more than sit at the bank and talk about politics, thieves, bounty hunters, role-players, fishermen, assassins, PK'ers, realtors (you could own more than one house, which made that a profitable profession), IDOC campers (there were a lot of battles over some of the IDOC houses), animal tamers, a whole world of people each doing their own thing.

    AOS turned it into an item-based fighting game. The head honcho of that crew admitted that he didn't play UO, but he was a Diablo addict, so they just followed his lead and tried to turn the whole, complex UO WORLD into a pathetic, second-rate Diablo clone. Which worked about as well as could be expected, subscriptions dropped from 250,000 diverse people to the 50,000 or so accounts that are still open today, many of which are single players with 5 or 10 accounts each. From the lack of actual players on most shards, it would appear that most current subscribers don't really play any more, they just don't want to lose their stuff, and $14 a month isn't a big deal. But there is a lot of attrition among them, as their wives will go thru the automatic payments on their bank accounts and wonder why they still pay that money for a game they haven't played much in years. (I have first-hand knowledge of that problem, but I did protest until they said that the classic shard was no longer a possibility)

    The truth is, subscriptions dropped because there was a big demand out there for social games, as the success of Facebook games and even the UO free shards can attest. But there just wasn't that big of a demand for yet another two-dimensional fighting game.

    Prior to the AOS hacks getting their hot little hands on UO, We Build Worlds was more than just a slogan. In Minoc, Topher McDaddy, Mayor McCheese, Venom, me and a bunch of other guys took it upon ourselves to protect the Minoc mine from reds, who had a tendency to raid it and kill the miners, and the T2A entrance above town where they would congregate. If I was out killing monsters in a dungeon and got killed by a red and lost my stuff, I would go back to the Brit smithy and get Old Hippy or one of the other smiths to make me some new armor and a new sword, then recall to one of the vendor houses and pick up some bandages and potions, gather up some friends and go back for revenge. Sometimes there would be an epic battle with the PK'er and a few of his friends, sometimes the PK'er would have already recalled out, sometimes I would just die again. If I died, it was back to the Brit smiths with the materials to make a suit, and a tip for the smith. Most of them did the work for free, lived on the tips. I eventually GM'ed blacksmithy and sat at the Brit smiths with some of the veteran smiths. It was actually fun.
    Post-AOS, I log in my fighter. I have to have separate characters, one fighter, one mage, one animal tamer, one craftsman, one treasure hunter. Each template takes 6 fighting skills to be effective, and the mage and craftsman each have to soulstone a skill. The days of the tank mage/miner are long gone. All of my friends either quit or went to free shards. My faction members only want to kill other players, the idea of a dungeon crawl is beneath them. They all have two or more accounts, one with a house in Trammel to store all their stuff, another close to the Yew moongate or Brit moongate in Fel. The one house restriction has worked to force everybody to keep a second account if they want to PvP, but it's a very bad way to boost subscriptions.
    Anyway, my fighter goes to a Trammel dungeon, there's practically no danger. He can pretty much kill anything. In a Felucca dungeon, there aren't any blue players left, and the reds will kill anybody on sight, even their own faction members, so the concept of killing monsters in a Felucca dungeon solo just isn't a good idea. My craftsman just sat in the corner for years after AOS, the BOD system sucked. They did finally introduce Imbuing, which made him useful again, but nothing like before AOS.
    Basically, AOS was when the game went from being a community to being a paper skill and item-based combat game with a few of the social aspects left in, mostly because they couldn't find an easy way to get rid of them.
     
  33. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    That's an interesting point, thank you. You're right to say some sense of community remained post-trammel introduction, even if UO:R had divided and changed it for the worse. Probably correct about the 'risk' thing as well to an extent.

    That was mostly my understanding. Is this solely down to the 'itemisation' of UO Post-AOS, or is there more to it than that?

    Do you think that's something that could be recaptured? Perhaps not even in current UO, but could AOS, without fundamental changes, have allowed this to continue? Or had it died or begun to die well beforehand?

    That's really interesting and exactly the kind of information I was hoping to glean.

    Especially the post-trammel part, which is completely an unknown area to me. I'm not exactly sure what to take from it, because the overriding message appears to be that UO:R just killed Felucca, and that to an extent, the community just continued along in a similar way to before, just on a new facet, and obviously minus a lot of old faces, but plus a lot of new. Alters my perception slightly, because to me, the near-death of 'community' in UO was at this point, not in AOS. Perhaps I'll have to re-evaluate that slightly.

    When do you(and everyone else) think this ended?

    For me, it ended 90% with trammel introduction. Splitting communities to pieces. I think this was then actually revitalized slightly by p16 and even AOS because the players of both/all facets were united again in Felucca by a shared goal(power scrolls)

    Wasn't it just a monster-bash game for most people even before AOS? I mean what did the Trammel facet offer? The community that you speak of above, I accept. But beyond that, what was there other than item gathering? There was no risk vs reward, player justice, or any of the other aspects pre-UOR UO had, except in Felucca, where perhaps 20% of the player-base spent it's time?

    Kind of off topic, but which dev was that? I know Evocare and Adrick were on the dev team at this time, and both were 'hardcore' UO addicts.

    Completely agree.

    This was all pre UOR though. You certainly couldn't have had that kind of fun/adventure in trammel even before AOS release.


    Again I think you're unjustly attaching a lot of these problems to AOS when UO:R was actually more to blame.

    Thanks a lot for the reply, some really interesting stuff and it'll certainly make me re-evaluate my opinions on some things.
     
  34. Percivalgoh

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    My experience in this game has always been one of not having as much time as others to get stuff done. I worked hard to gm my smith back when my guild needed a smith but 3 other guildies beat me to it. They may have let me be the smith because they all had other characters who could contribute. Later on I worked freelance in Delucia. I mined and when I got to the forge to smelt the ore I took orders and made various armor or weapon items. Then people were able to loot better stuff than I could make off monsters and some crafters were farming monsters and enhancing the loot to make it better but I just didn't have the time to even finish my characters much less do hours long dungeon runs. Bods came out and the only rewards I could get were hardly worth the effort. I ended up smelting all my dull copper and shadow runic hammers for ingots and quit doing BOds. My guildmates encouraged me to go back and do them again after I had a years break so I did but I still haven't got anything better than a bronze runic all these years later so I wasn't able to compete with other smiths because I didn't have the time to do what they did. I haven't ever gotten bored enough with UO in 12 years to try another online game however I would have likely quit if not for Trammel. Justice in UO is imaginary but bad players can affect your happiness in real life. Trammel fixed all of that for me. I have been a happy camper since then.
     
  35. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    Thanks. You're the kind of player I need to hear from really. I wasn't necessarily against the introduction of a 'trammel' - I was against the mirroring of the old facet, basically recreating a happy shiny new UO, and stranding the people that enjoyed the old rule set in an unloved and shunned corner of the game.

    How do you feel about that - Trammel being an exact mirror of the old lands? Do you agree it would have been better for a new landmass to be created that could have become Trammel? At least the Felucca 'old lands' would have retained some relevancy then.
     
  36. Percivalgoh

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    Back when Trammel was first created I was worried that I would be seperated from my guild or friends but when housing came about I almost couldn't place a house. I thought it would be easy but still marked like 7 runes just in case and as it turned out 7 wasn't enough. As far as the mirror thing it never bothered me. I figured they did that to save on time and money. For a while it was cool because you used a moonstone and go to the coresponding spot on the other facet. There never seemed to be any facet that was shunned or unloved. From the way many people talk and have talked for years Trammel is that. Is that veiw changing?
     
  37. coli

    coli Guest

    Hi CLX.

    One thing I am sure contributed was the changes in the population structure combined with powerhour/scripting facilitating the production of crafting mules.

    I would guess that in the old days there was a steady flow of newbies that provided a customer base for the crafters + replacement gear due to item decay. As UO lost its appeal to genuine newbs, I would guess the relative frequency of players who had their own mules rather than using services provided by other players was increasing.

    p16 started the ball rolling with BODS as the only way to collect enough to have even a slight chance of filling one was by running multiple accounts of BOD mules, or by spending huge amounts buying BODS.

    AoS killed it though in my opinion.
     
  38. EricVT

    EricVT Adventurer
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    My craftsman made pretty good gold selling armor and weapons and repairing equipment for tips at Brit Forge way back in the day.

    But then again back then gold was a secondary concern to the experience of playing. You didn't need millions of gold to be competitive...hell, you didn't need more than a couple thousand to buy a suit of GM iron armor and a GM weapon.
     
  39. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    :thumbup:
     
  40. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    Comon guys back then a GM or "seer" could delete your f-ing house. The whole F-in thing! They could create any item, dupe, kill players and make players invulnerable. They could delete players! They could do just about any old thing they wished and ... They had buddys in game. It was the favoritism that killed the original UO.

    GM Cocheese "problem solved"

    when he deleted my house while it was getting looted! Yea that DID happen!
     
  41. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    Sorry to bump an old post.

    Just wondering if anyone has any more thoughts on this, and to ask another question:

    BOD system - how could this have been better/was there an alternative? As in, was there another way for crafters to stay relevant and be rewarded for their work?
     
  42. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Power Hour killed the Crafter-Main character as it was simply too easy for people to macro up an alt as a crafter.

    Crafters can still be crazily profitable through various systems... imbuing and BODs being two of the main ones, and of course resource gatherers.
     
  43. Ludes

    Ludes Babbling Loonie
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    I had the most fun with my crafters when I stood at Brit forge and repair'd or made stuff for people.

    Or standing at WBB selling furniture right after Ren.. when everyone and their ghetto kids had houses and not just those that earned them.

    But hey.. I did sell a lot of furniture.
     
  44. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    No doubt. Nearly everyone I talk to says the same thing. I loved that interaction too, although I was never the crafter.

    The impression I have of the things that ruined crafters are the same things that mostly ruined UO as a whole:

    Trammel introduction, meaning community split, ruined economy(everyone could afford to make their own crafter)

    BODS. Turned crafting into a solo enterprise.

    AOS, itemisation, etc.
     
  45. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    lol nice...I've never heard that one

    yeah, things got complicated quick...and Shame will be AOS 2.0, for better or for worse. and thus the snowball rolls on...hope everyone has OpenOffice!

    I'm beginning to forget the exact transition from sandbox to grind...first we had the standard AR armor and GM made weps, and the only thing better wasn't all that much better (found loot)...I mean, mages could fight naked...then we had the early version of runics and the introduction of weapon specials, which predates AOS...but really, I think one has to look at cheating, as well...and how the introduction of AOS gauntlet artifacts, for example, encouraged dupers...Orny duping, for example. Crafters could still compete w/ barbed kits and val hammers--most of which were also duped--but the introduction of artifacts meant the crafter didn't matter as much anymore, and it took a helluva long time to make the crafter--or the imbuer--able to make arty-level jewelry (the tinker recipes largely don't count, save for the alchy), and now Shame will put crafters back a peg or two. I'd also assume a lot of legit crafters gave up due to all the duping, or a lack of interest in the BOD grind, but I'm not sure.
     
  46. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    The reasons mages could fight naked was because they typically had "Resisting spells" and the obvious reason they were "Ranged damage", the Resisting spells worked as it does now (40 resistances in all schools) at GM Resist.

    the old armor system wasn't very good, I remember looking at a Strategy guide at a book store quite a while ago (maybe around 2000-2002 ish), it had the resist tables of the armor, base damage of weapons along with swing speeds and such, as the way it is currently in UO, and none of that was even in the game yet.

    the strategy guide i was looking at, was for the LBR expansion.
    It had everything broken down into specific stats on Weapons & Armor types
    I don't remember seeing any "Special Weapon Moves" in it, but nearly everything else was as AoS turned it into. Based on this particular Strategy guide.

    I didn't really think much of it, til after people started complaining about how complex and item-based UO has become.
     
  47. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    What are you talking about...I'm talking about pre-AOS, when the only stat for armor was AR (physical). The reason mages could fight naked was because of reactive armor, which used to be a better version of current-day attunement, Magic Reflection, which used to reflect magic spells in a much more simple and effective way than the current use, and Magic Resist Spells, which would actually resist damage spells. After that, some mages would use para if they were gimp, heh.
     
  48. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    What.
     
  49. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    Yeah, sounds like he's talking about age of shadows as it was on launch, with armor stat tables and weapon property tables (if you needed a property table for the old system you needed a brain replacement). Timeframe is about right as 2002 would have been AOS beta. Everything before AOS gave AR at different levels, and different armor slots weighted how much AR they gave (leather gave less AR than plate, and a tunic gives more than gloves), resist spells worked a bit differently pre-aos also...it acctualy made you resist spells. (much like reactive armor actually made you resist damage). Stats and armor also effected skills then, increasing or decreasing your chance for success. (the higher the AR the worse the chance to stealth, or if you wore gloves you'd fail at remove trap more). Also, pre-aos mouse hovering over things did nothing, you had to single click to get names of things but items needed to be identified (with item id) before you knew their properties (only really three, for all items durability, for armor defense bonus, and for weapons attack bonus, and it was 5 flat levels identified by name for each). The only other property was spell effects, like bless on armor pieces, or fireball on a sword, and those were singular and limited by charges. Best part with this item system though was even with a full suit of invuln plate and a vanq sword w/ a hit spell, a guy in normal plate with a normal sword could still take you down easily if he's better than you, the advantages of the armor and weapons were nice but nothing like the ridiculousness of the high end armor today.
     
  50. Luvmylace

    Luvmylace Sage
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    Pleas forgive me for this post .My curiosity has risen to the point ,That I can no longer control my urge to ask you several questions.
    Your well chosen wording in your intro has protected this thread from deteriorating to rants and trolls fodder. Your subsequent questions in later posts seem more fact finding than mere curiosity.
    My hat is off to you. However ,I am curious as to who you really are and because of the choice of your questions ,why are you here asking them ,if you no longer play Ultima.
    You sound like a developer or someone interested in a remake of this great game.
    Do tell.