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A greater discussion about over-powered archers

Discussion in 'UHall' started by SUPRsalad, Feb 4, 2010.

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  1. SUPRsalad

    SUPRsalad Guest

    1. Because the Poll was a troll magnet, and was pretty much irrelevant, I made a new thread to discuss the problem with archery.
    2. Because 90% of voters in the poll did not produce any significant data to support their vote, I made a new thread. . .
    3. Because there is a major problem in regard to archery and pvp, the thesis of this discussion should reflect constructive and compromising ideas. Not flames.

    My thoughts are these:

    1. Archery as a skill is fine. No nerfing to Archery or damage is necessary. 'un-nerfing' some other skills seems more exciting.

    2. godly balanced bows have always been in very rare existence, but are now widely available. If anything is to be nerfed it is the 'balanced' property. Perhaps increasing its 'weight'? Perhaps removing it altogether.. I mean, can you drink a beer while shooting a bow and arrow?

    3. 'Un-nerfing' of other skills including magery, parry and other weapon skills, poisoning & chiv; necro, should be discussed in detail before formal petitions are made.

    4. enchanted apple timer?


    Look, I play an archer too, but the thing is, we're turning into 'ultima-archers onliine'. We're losing our diversity. Mages are supposed to be a part of the game as well, but frankly, even the greatest mages I've ever known have no means of defeating today's 'imbue-able archer'. The reason people are still playing their mages isn't because they don't want to build an archer. Most mages I know have a great archer on their acct. They play mages, because playing an archer all the time is boring..

    The two arguments I hear in terms of 'Not doing anything to anything' are:

    1. run a ridiculously under-powered parry/wrestle mage and while you're at it, go ahead and sacrifice a nice chunk of your stats so you can actually USE your useless, albeit, defensive skills.

    and

    2. Play an archer.

    That said, we're looking for new ideas, either for, or against..
     
  2. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    The only problem with un-nerfing other templates and/or upping DPS is that the fights are over so fast. When more templates can do 40-80 damage and HP is capped at 150, healing can't keep up.
     
  3. SUPRsalad

    SUPRsalad Guest

    Valid point.
     
  4. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    ok I will stick my foot in the water slowly!I seems that balance is a issue in pvp? yes? what about just making balance not work in felucia ruleset and still work everywhere else? would this not make everyone happy concerning balance?
    just a thought!
     
  5. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Eh, most PvMers don't seem to use potions anyway, and there are better properties for PvM archers than balance, so it's almost completely a PvP property.

    ... so we could get potion-dispensing hats for UO?
     
  6. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    thats true I just hate to throw a property away though just because it messes with pvp
    I run abc archer who rarely uses balance! But there are times when I do(not a lot but if I get into area where i need that extra healing its nice to have the option!)

    What about increasing the potion timer if used with balance!
    say maybe double the time or what ever would work?
    and pots would still work on same timer if you disarmed?
     
  7. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Of course we do. We love potions,healing,cure,invisibility,refresh,agility and strengh for some extra points if we get cursed or to suppliment, conflaration and confusion for some crowed control. We PVM love potions.
     
  8. SUPRsalad

    SUPRsalad Guest

    Okay so then, removing the balanced property from fel rule-set? I don't see a problem with this at ALL.. Nice post, very nice *claps*
     
  9. SUPRsalad

    SUPRsalad Guest

    Not sure about changing the timers with balanced.. I think increasing the WEIGHT on a balanced bow would be key. A balanced bow should be exactly that. . .

    Balanced.. With a little room left for damage increase? Or SSI? or a tiny bit of both.. There, you get to keep balanced bows, you just can't DRILL someone for 50 insta-damage with it..
     
  10. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    ok that's one lol and i think that would make most people happy!

    whats the next problem! ;-)
    I like good constructive talks i just get anoyed when people want to just change things to make them happy and screw everyone else!
     
  11. Kellgory

    Kellgory Certifiable
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    It seems as tho the problem is the amount of damage archers can do in a single shot since now with imbuing everyone can if they choose run around with a bow with that is balanced and have 50 hit spell, 38 velocity and 40 SSI or not balanced and have 50 hit spell, 50 velocity, 50 DI and 40 SSI. It wasn't that huge of a problem in the past because not everyone had or could afford a bow with those kinds of properties. Maybe they could impliment caps on the amount of damage like they did for AI's. It wouldn't matter if you had both spells hit or if it was a double shot, once it hit the cap that was it. This would be only for PVP.

    Not real sure about removing the balanced property for fel only, but they could add a delay into the amount of time that you could shoot again after chugging a pot. After all you can chug a beer with a bow in hand you just can't shoot it with any precision (two fingers on string, pinky and thumb holding beer can and sipping through a straw...problem is that when you reach back to get another arrow from the quiver you pour the beer down your back..I'm an Okie so trust me on this).
     
  12. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    balance is already a 1.5 weight and is the highest in game so increasing weight would be like saying its the most powerfull property in the game that i dont agree with!

    delaying the pot timer when used in conjunction with balance would be way to go i think if you wanted to keep balance for pvp
    in other words the timer doubles the time between pots every use up to say 1 or 2 min whatever would seem fair!
     
  13. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    or maybe a kind of diminishing return so the more you use it the less it helps
     
  14. Walkerboh77

    Walkerboh77 Guest

    balance doesn't belong in pvp...

    if it did...then why don't other 2 handed weapons have balance?

    bows should have balance removed...and while we are at it...bows should only be allowed 1 +damage effect...ie no 50% hit lightning AND 50% velocity
     
  15. Any casting template vs any bandage template is biased from the off. In case its not clear by bandages I mean dexxers including archers. A dexxer using Chiv (if theres any left) is under the same problems as Mages.

    Casting: Attack or heal.
    Bandages: Attack & heal.

    Casting: Stop to cast.
    Bandages: No stopping to apply, or swing, moving shot penalty doesn't (seem) to work.

    Casting: Cast time, lower damage and spell interruption from all sources including 0 dmg.
    Bandages: Automatic swing, greater damage, reduced effect only and from a much higher amount of damage.

    Casting: No mana potion
    Bandages: Total refresh potion

    Casting: Stacked damage from combos only.
    Bandages: Stacked damage from additional hit spells & damage over time specials

    Casting: Pre cast.
    Bandages: No pre cast for attacks, but can for healing. (trap box 1st or whatever)

    Given the things they've done in recent times I highly doubt anyone is still working on PvP balance, but I think they need to stop letting absoloutely everything interupt casting. Take away the free 80 Eval hit spell gets, let delayed hit spells not interrupt, or let resist give a damage buffer on interruption or at least block damage from low end sources, those would be at least some way of tipping the balance back.

    I don't really buy into the problem being potions as everyone can have them. Though I do think casters need more ways to heal block dexxers than just Poison. Maybe instead of Parra freezing you to the spot it should do like a 5 second purple version of Mortal with forced walking, as in being parralyzed you would be unable to apply a bandage. Or give fire spells a small chance of dissintegrating bandages being applied.
     
  16. MasterP

    MasterP Guest

    SIMPLE MAKE DCI WORK. MAKE ALL WEPS CHUGGABLE. WHEN YOU CHUGG OR APPLY BANDAGES YOU HAVE TO STOP FOR THE SAME ABOUT OF TIME AS G HEAL FROM A MAGE. TAKE 4/6 CASTING AWAY FROM CHIV OR GIVE MAGES 4/6 CASTING. MAKE SPECIALS TAKE MORE MANA. START BANNING SPEED HACKING NOOBS.
     
  17. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    balance is fine in pvm so just remove it from pvp!
    same with velocity and spell damage from weapons just make them not work in pvp! there is no reason to effect pvm with pvp changes!
    make it so if a bow in the fel rule set has more than one hit damage effect then non work! problem fixed for everyone!
     
  18. Tom_Builder

    Tom_Builder Slightly Crazed
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    I still think setting a limit on damage any hit can do to a person would balance everything. Then all classes would be the same. Make it so the max damage is 35. That would fix pvp. Otherwise nerfing one class will just give another one the upper hand.

    Tom
     
  19. I think they should make Resist Spells work along the lines of if you have say 40-50 higher Resist than whatever the source of the spells Eval then it should have no effect. Half the time you're running around PvPing its the magic arrow shot by a 70 Eval wraith that fizzles you just as the guy chasing you AI's ya.
     
  20. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    resist for sure needs some love
     
  21. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    ... It may be a while, but they have the stuff in place, just need to put it on useable items.

    So far they're only for Garg Artifacts. Just have to wait until they put them on artifacts useable by other races. Who knows how long that'll take.
     
  22. Yeah theres those, but the casting focus is only 2%, and the Resonance is on a 2h wep. The Resonance works ok, I've tried it, but as ya say they need to be available on other stuff.
     
  23. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    What are these archer templates? I keep reading about the over powered archers. What are the skills/equipment?
     
  24. Capt.E

    Capt.E Guest

    This is an interesting thread. I definetly agree that archery is dominant in today's UO. A few favorable RNG rolls and anything standing before an archer is dead. No matter the amount of dci, or parry, or any other defensive tactic. I would like to play my Mage more often. Two button mashing pwnage gets pretty old after awhile. Here is my thoughts.

    1. Curse spell. Make it slow bandie timer or double it. Going from 4 secs to 5 isn't much of a loss. If it was 10 seconds that might be overdoing it.

    2. Increase mana cost on archery specials. Chaining 4 ai is an insane amount of damage. It's possible, I've seen it.(well actually I lived through 3, which I was stoked about, then the 4th destroyed me)

    3. Increase timer between specials.

    4. I happen to like balanced bows. Every bow is 2-handed. It's not like you have the option to go less damage and 1-handed.

    These are my thoughts. I really don't like nerfing things. I have become very accostomed to playing an archer, and I tend to think that some minor changes, like increasing mana cost might mitigate some of the issues.
     
  25. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
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    This entire issue is resolved with one easy solution. No need for nerfs..removing this or that..blah..blah...blah:

    Allow 4/6 (or even 3/6) casting for mages.

    On a side note..diminishing returns on ALL Pots is an absolute necessity as well.
     
  26. Pretty much any Archer.

    The equipment is along the lines of 60 SSI (imbued Daimyo's helm), Jade Armband (Imbued), Turqoise Ring (Imbued), and they already had 40 SSI on the weapon. On top of that Hit spell, Hit velocity, and balanced. With 50 E.P, 150 HP, 180+ Stam, can completely outheal anything, especially if thrown by a caster, for the time it takes to deal 50 damage they've already healed 70+. On top of that theres the 10s heal block of Mortal &/or the Double Shot from Yumi. On top of that you can combine it with being a Stealth Archer so your on foot with all of the above hitting you. Or a Tamer/Archer so all of the above plus pets.

    Basically if someone can't get a kill with an Archer its because they're doing it wrong. Where as not being able to kill an Archer with a caster is because you can't do enough damage while keeping yourself alive, as above, you can only heal or attack, your attacks are weak without Curse which will obviously get removed before any major dump. You're getting interrupted the whole time which unlike bandages means no spell instead of half a spell, or if you go in Protection you again can't deal damage fast enough to make any difference. You only have one way of blocknig their heals (Poison) which is resisted or instantly removed, unlike mortal which can be chained.

    Hope that helps.
     
  27. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    The thing about the diminishing returns is they tried something like that a few months ago (it was on test) and most everyone screamed bloody murder about it! so they canned it !
     
  28. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    So it is the equipment for the most part?
     
  29. SUPRsalad

    SUPRsalad Guest

    Awesome ideas cap'n. It could very well be as simple as tweaking the mana cost for specials. . Somehow, I still think something a bit more drastic may be neccesary to truly balance things.

    I don't really think taking away balanced bows is going to change an archers ability to outright destroy a mage. The mana cost thing, in conjunction with this might help. Again, I'm not saying 'take balanced out of the game' but in MY opinion (and I know storm disagrees) balanced IS the most powerful property in the game.. Hands down.

    That said, I think its 'weight' should reflect this. For example, in a DEFENSIVE situation, an archer can use a balanced bow.. Its just not going to have hit spell, velo, ssi, and di. I think balanced should take up THREE mod slots, at each mod's maximum weight. In other words, Balanced, plus DI, plus SSI would be five slots.

    Toying with the potion timers, in my opinion, is irrelevant. I DO, however, think there should be some kind of timer on the cure, and refresh pots.. But I guess thats another can of worms. .

    Apples, however, need some work.. Lets just face it, the little green apples are just way way too good..

    The magic resist tune-up thing is exciting. I love these ideas. HOWEVER, the thing I can see making people upset, is this would basically ruin pure-mage dueling. Its a beloved artform, and taking away a mage's ability to fizzle a mage's spell-cylcle using low-level spells would be quite sad. .

    Here's my solution to that:
    Lets talk about messing around with the 'protection' spell... Its an old idea that was thrown around a while back. Perhaps altering the 'arch protection' spell, which, frankly, is an abandoned spell.

    The idea here, is that a mage can toggle into a different sort of 'mode' of combat for fighting archers and dexxers, but would have some sort of major disadvantage towards mages. .

    maybe it would amp your dci as though you are suddenly running parry?
    maybe it would also drop your magic resist to 0?

    Just another idea to toss around..
     
  30. SUPRsalad

    SUPRsalad Guest

    Hmmm... to pull off even 3/6 casting, you're talking about needing to carry a shield with +1. This kindof entails running wrestling as well.. Not sure if I can really get behind this entirely... I think you would run the risk of making mages WAY too powerful.. You would increase their DPM way way way too much.

    The potion thing though, thats another can of worms we should get into later..
     
  31. SUPRsalad

    SUPRsalad Guest

    Ummm.. Yes. Its basically the equipment..
     
  32. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Seriously? I play a different rule set, so equipment is a different matter. When we lose we have to re equip.

    So what is the real issue? The template, the equipment, insurance... what?
     
  33. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    A few random notes that everyone is already aware of..



    Archers do not have access to Bleed, Disarm, and various other Weapon Specials.

    Archers are more Dex reliant than any other dexxer and *Need* to drink Agi pots.

    Only two bows can swing at 1.25. Neither have very good PvP Specials, and are both very weak as far as damage.

    Archers need to dedicate alot more "Weight" and "Properties" on their gear for SSI in order to get 1.5 Swing Speed. (Which is not max)

    Archers do not have access to Parry.

    Archers do not have access to Shields.

    4/6 Chiv is much easier to run on a Non archer due to FC 1 Shields.

    Archers need to use "Weight" and "Properties" on their Bows for Balanced, where as 1 Handed weapons can add an extra Property such as Hit Lower attack.. Which reduces the Effectiveness of Any Dexxer.

    If archers want Balanced they must also sacrifice something such as DI on their weapons.. Meaning they must add it elsewhere.. Unlike other Dexxers.

    Archers must run Lower INT or STR meaning less Overall HP or Mana.. Which must also be added to their gear, which other dexxers do not.

    Archers require arrows or Bolts.

    Archers cannot take advantage of UBWS property, which limits the type of specials, damages, and swing speeds of their attacks.




    :heart:
     
  34. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    "Because the suit is hard to make" doesn't justify anything.

    Any PvPer worth anything has a suit that was hard to make.

    By the way, I'm not taking a side on this issue, just pointing out the flawed reasoning.
     
  35. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    More flawed reasoning. Melee dexxers are just as dex reliant as archers are. Max dex and stamina is required to maintain maximum swing, stamina and maximum healing speed, just like archers. Granted melee dexxers can use some faster weapons but the damage output is much less, but the fastest healing demands max dex and removing curse as quick as possible.
     
  36. Tetricyde

    Tetricyde Journeyman
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    See as you all mention how Archers are underdogs, and Mages are underdogs in PVP....

    What about Thieves? Oh wow they make Insurance and to make up for it, they put a few crappy potions on some monsters for us to steal... oh yea the market for those potions is booming!

    ..and anyone who says theives have nothing to do with PVP... PVP= Player Versus Player... Doesn't just classify Fighting either... A Theif(Player) steals from a Victim(player) = PVP...

    this proves the entire point of why you can just single out one Skill Class thats needs help... Alot of Skill Classes are Screwed up and need attention...

    All In All, DEVS would rather throw some Pixels at us than fix the actual structure of the game... Why? Because then they can sell it, instead of pay designers to modify whats already in place...

    I highly doubt anything will happen here... Waste of time honestly...:thumbdown:
     
  37. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    First.. I never said the suit was "Harder" to make.. Im saying that Archers need to sacrifice other stats inorder to achieve what Non High Dex dexxers can.. Aka 10% SSI Helm.. Opposed to Faction helm with 15% HCI 20+ Str and good resists.. SSI on Ring and Brace instead of INT, LMC, Or Stam.

    As well as 40% SSI on a Balanced bow, Compared to 20 SSI with 40 DI and 40 Hit lower Attack, on a 2 Second Weapon.

    Healing based melee dexxers.. yes.. However any non healing based dexxer is perfectly fine with 20 SSI and 30 Dex (Compared to 40 and 125) on a 2 Second swing speed weapon to get 1.25.

    And AI Will hit 35 with 120 Tactics and 100% DI for a Kryss .. Which is quicker attack speed for the same damage from AI.


    Considering the fact that Bokuto can swing at 1.25 with 20 SSI and 30 Stam, Hit for 25 on the Nerve, 10 On the Hit, and 10 On the lightning, As well as.. Paralyze.


    :heart:
     
  38. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Before imbueing i had all balanced bows and a sickning comp bow that unfortunately wasnt balanced, i just simply switched to another bow if i needed to use a pot, wam bam done, switch back afterwords. i have redone all my suits with imbueing, my mage suits for mage weapon and wrestling are both insanely nice, all 70s corpse proof, 10-14mr, 15 sdi, 100lrc, 40 lmc, 70 dci and 50 enhance potions..... my archer has 182 stamina with hld glasses, max hci/dci 40 lmc 50 enhance pots, and i even squeaked in a 5ssi ring for kicks... so i use this crap as much as the next person but...


    I think pots and ep should have little to no effect without having gm alchemy. Sure i definitly believe an archer can fit gm alchemy into his template no problem, i think alot of template could, but this solves alot of issues imho. take the stealth ninja bushido deathstriker...most of them only heal with pots...




    Also, balandced bows are a very touchy subject because archer, unlike other melee skills, does not have a 1 handed weapon u can switch to. If im running around with a hally in my hand and want to sue a pot, nothing stops me from switching to a bokuto and having at it without sacrificing offense/defense. Pots are not the only problem, for instance, because an archer is a ranged melee skill they do not entirely need parrying in any way. that frees up a skill slot, my archer runs archery and fencing...because i can. this is why i say the alchemy would fit into an archer template simply. I honestly do not think there is a giant problem with archers otuside of the DPS and like another poster said, the amount any dexer in general can heal vs a mage. Sure if you play a mage enough you can find ways around it, but if you get disrupted, or use protection, you run the risk of going into defense mode quickly and not being able to recover. Maybe hit velocity should be considered a hit spell, beefed up a bit to match the others, and not be able to stack with other hit spells... maybe mortal should be busted up a bit, maybe moving shot should take more of a penalty. Obviously now it is very simple to beef up your suit to swing a comp bow at 1.5s and laugh at your opposition, maybe the one pot that needs a tiemr on it is total refresh, i can go through like 50 of these in a 10minute fight on my archer trying to keep my max swing up.
     
  39. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    No no way. Our PVM dexters need maximum dex and ss as we heal with leeches. But you not talking about pvm just pvp right? Though you must take consideration of the pvm when talking broadly mention us when calculating like saying perhaps a small tidbit like this is only for pvp or this is only on siege or pvm needs more you know cause a nerf in pvp always equals a huge nerf to us.
     
  40. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    Yes, I am only considering PvP in my Points and comments.



    :heart:
     
  41. Not exactly true on either point. Most archers I know run more than archery on their templates. They run fencing, which does allow them to bleed and disarm.
    Also, I run a dexxer that isnt an archer and I am completely reliant on agility pots to make sure my stam stays up. Without it my heals are way too slow, even with high stam already.
     
  42. chad

    chad Sage
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    1. Yeah, but you get to shoot from up to 10 tiles away and do it on the run.

    2. No they're not.

    3. They serve their purposes as do most all weapons.

    4. Having 1.5 swing vs 1.25 is not really a viable argument considering an archer does not have to stand on top of their opponent to swing.

    5. You're right!

    6. Way to repeat yourself.

    7. Yeah, but when a melee dexer has both hands full, he can't chug. Archers can.

    8. You get double hit spells though.

    9. The damage on the bow is unimportant considering they get double hit spells and the base damage on bows is significantly higher than most one handed weapons if not all.

    10. You're wrong here. A properly set up archer takes no hit in any stat. Take mine for example... 136 hp/182 stamina/117 mana. I don't even wear a sash or a pair intelligence boots.

    11. What's your point?

    12. Can you imagine if they did get ubws? Then everyone would be an archer and just use UBWS melee.
     
  43. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest


    :heart:
     
  44. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    :heart:
     
  45. hakeem

    hakeem Journeyman
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    I gotta agree with this. At 120 it still doesnt resist any spells worth a hoot. And 44 resists? Laughable these days.

    Perhaps a going over with resist could improve chances of resisting the magic effects from bows? Sort of a "spell damage defense chance"? An evolution of where magic resist was before it was changed.

    For the balanced property, I can see both making it unuseable in Fel, or the idea of somehow limiting it's use.
    Diminishing returns always sounds good, but there are always ways around that fix. But then archers could holler they no longer have the pots access, so problem continues.

    Perhaps potions having a longer timer if holding a balanced weapon, and doing less potential. Say knock 20 percent off the amount healed or regenerated, back cure pots off 1 poison type.
    Anyone have any odeas on this particular idea?
     
  46. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    Not technically true about being easier to use 4/6.

    My bush dexxer has 4/6 without any casting on the weapon...if you think, its actually very easy.

    Im not sure on the best fix for archery in pvp but i do think a good start would be removing the double hit spell. Let it be one or the other, now i dont see how anyone can really complain, it would open up another slot for a different property. Or more in one. Its unbalanced as its the hardest hitting weapon skill in game anyway and now has an extra damage boost[which btw isnt affected by resists]

    I do think balanced is actually the strongest mod in the game and do believe it should be 200 weight. Alot of people however, may disagree.

    Personally, i think one of the best solutions to this is by BUFFIN resist spells.

    Make resist spells have a chance [say 35% at 120] of resisting the hit spell damage. This would help mages against all dexer templates while not making them overpowered. Plus [not that many dont] it would require FULL use of the skill to be in effect [0% at less that GM maybe [email protected] [email protected]..]

    What you think?
     
  47. hakeem

    hakeem Journeyman
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    A very valid point many pvp only players sometimes forget.
     
  48. hakeem

    hakeem Journeyman
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    In the flawed poll post on this subject, removal of the 80 dex to parry was mentioned. At the time this was added the dread BokBok was king. (for newer players this alludes to a parry mage wielding a mage wep bokuto.).
    I still believe to this day that a dex minimum for parry is a good idea. But perhaps lowering it to 75 or 50 might help.
    The just going whole hog on nerfs, fixes, and additions, instead of using some caution and moderation has played a huge part in the problems UO has today.
     
  49. hakeem

    hakeem Journeyman
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    I was making a post almost identical in theory to this at nearly the same time.

    You must be a very intelligent, Attractive, and charismatic person too!:thumbup:
     
  50. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    Agreed.

    Actually so far, ive agree with almost all of your posts.

    Apparantly i posted a very similar idea to you as you where posting it...buffing resist spells.
     
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