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A new abuse of a ninja spell with taming that needs to be addressed

Discussion in 'UHall' started by imported_revenant2, Feb 24, 2008.

  1. The new, extra powerful dragons were set to take 5 control slots, presumably to cause the tamer to be on foot while using the new dragons for balance reasons.

    A modification to tamer templates is now being used in Felucca since the new dragons became bonded. Tamers are putting Ninja on their templates for the express purpose of using animal form to be able to move at mounted speeds despite having a 5-slot dragon out of the stable. I saw this in action today and it is clear that it's essentially an abuse of the Ninja form and its too powerful a combination. In the worst case scenario, the tamer bolas someone, puts the dragon on them, and 10 seconds later that tamer is back to moving at mounted speed around the victim.

    Ninja animal form will need to be adjusted such that someone with a 5-slot dragon out of the stable cannot assume animal form. I'm also concerned that the combination of the individual tamer who is in control of a 5-slot dragon being able to dismount *at all* may be overpowered as well. I feel entirely certain on the first point, and the second one may need to be looked at.
     
  2. Al Thorin

    Al Thorin Guest

    This issue was brought up the moment we found them accidently released on TC1.

    In fact, it's been abused since Ninja forms were released. 5 control slots worth of animals (beetle/mare, etc), and ninja form.

    Should have counted as a control slot from the get go as far as I am concerned.
     
  3. Well, they will need to deal with it. From what I am seeing it's clear balance issue on the production shards.

    If they won't though, I will need to drop eval off of my tamer and put ninjitsu on instead. He won't need eval, the dragon has it.
     
  4. Al Thorin

    Al Thorin Guest

    Well, even if it's not fixed, I wouldn't (and have not) jumped the ninja bandwagon.

    I'm not interested in relying 100% on my pet, while I may still require them to make kills, I still play a big part beyond commanding my pets.
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Hate to burst your bubbles this is the primary reason for ninja tamers. This has been going on for awhile. Just one of the templates you have to get used to. I dont think its terribly overpowered, as you cant use specials in animal form like you used to.

    And no I dont have this template and dont plan on making one. But there are ways around it.
     
  6. Al Thorin

    Al Thorin Guest

    While it's been around, that doesn't mean the concept isn't flawed.

    Tamers (and players in general) have control slots for a -reason-.

    Being able to go into a mount speed form while at max control slots is wonky.

    While animal form is limited, I doubt those limits were there because you could bypass control slots, they were there because they offered -other- benefits.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    well i guess you should just have them nerf ninjitsu some more....
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    On the one hand... We have nerfing animal forms...

    On the other... They could introduce a riding skill...
    Ninjitsu animal forms do have a cost in skill points... why should using a mount to move at mounted rate be for free?
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    This is most certainly not new. Animal forms have been a problem with tamers for ages. Just like pet balls.

    Wenchy
     
  10. A tamer in a ninja animal form with a beetle-bake is not working out to be like a ninja tamer with one of these new dragons.

    There's several strategies available to players to deal with being attacked by a tamer.

    One of them is pull one of the pets a short distance away from the tamer and disable the pet outright. This works on the beetle-bake combo because you can focus on one pet (i prefer the beetle first) and do about 250 points of damage to cause it to slow down its attack and 350 to get it to disengage or die. This doesn't work with these new dragons in a PVP environment. The one pet has the entire hit point base in one place, not 2 like in the beetle-bake combo. It's attack isn't slowed down after a brief but well-done fight and it takes a long time to put down the necessary 900 or so points of damage to really disable it. In PVP context the strategy just doesn't work. This isn't Destard we're talking here with all of its open space and manuvering room, this is a cluttered forest, etc, and it doesn't work the same.

    Another one is to kill the tamer and then do what you want regarding the uncontrolled pets afterward. You can't do this to the ninja animal form tamer when he uses his mounted speed to stay right with the dragon at all times, even as it teleports around to kill the player. In a beetle-bake combo, the pets can split up, and individual pets can be damaged and made to move slower. Such a tamer would have to choose one of the pets to stick close to for his personal protection - - either a beetle, or a bake - - neither of which comes close to the individual power of the new dragons. And kind-of as the final icing on the cake, moving at mounted speed makes the tamer that much harder to catch and kill, he can run clear if he wants and come back, etc ... not that this is always a bad thing but with everything taken together in context, it's just an overpowered situation.

    I watched aggressive ninja tamers doing these things today, and there appeared to be no good means for a single player to really fight back. Running off-screen and invissing doesn't count as fighting back, neither does having 6 people there to kill the offending dragon and otherwise save your ass. I was basically watching these ninja tamers rack up insurance money.

    My thought was that instead of nerfing the new dragons, forcing the ninja animal form spell to obey what appears to be the intended rules for taking the pets out of the stable (no mount allowed) might solve it. It could potentially open up the strategy #2 listed above for dealing with tamers.

    I don't know if it will be enough, though. An unmounted tamer's ability to swing a bola is just different in the context of these new dragons. Also, the new dragons teleport a lot while attempting to kill players. When they can sometimes kill a player in 2 hits, being able to teleport in for that second hit might be excessive. I'm not sure how all of this is going to work out.

    At a minimum, it makes sense to prevent ninjas from entering animal form while controlling a 5 slot dragon. It's presumably 5 slots and not 4 for balance reasons - - nobody was planning to pair up a frenzied ostard with their new dragon while standing on foot, it's clearly a mount restriction thing.
     
  11. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    <blockquote><hr>

    Ninja animal form will need to be adjusted such that someone with a 5-slot dragon out of the stable cannot assume animal form. I'm also concerned that the combination of the individual tamer who is in control of a 5-slot dragon being able to dismount *at all* may be overpowered as well. I feel entirely certain on the first point, and the second one may need to be looked at.

    [/ QUOTE ] Gah!!!! Leave the animal forms alone! Its not the animal forms that need to be adjusted,the dragons need to be "adjusted".....
     
  12. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    <blockquote><hr>

    well i guess you should just have them nerf ninjitsu some more....

    [/ QUOTE ] Isn't that always the answer? Tamers get an uber pet,and to balance it,another skill get whacked with a nerf stick....
     
  13. I worded the topic to this post in an unclear way. This is a new abuse in that before, there were no single, 5-slot pets. The intent of making a single pet take 5 slots is clearly to disallow being mounted while using the pet. Using ninja form to circumvent that clear intention is where this basically becomes an abuse.

    But having said that - - - if they leave things as they are, then that sets the rule as it not being an abuse! And in that event, I'll add ninja to my tamer too. I might not even have to add all that much ninja skill to get what is needed, either.
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Requiring a control slot for the mounted speed animal form shouldn't affect any non tamer PvPer at all. Though I'm still convinced that the pet balls are the first target of any nerfing.

    Jeremy has already hinted at a balancing of the tamers, but nobody from EA has said anything about where they see a problem. Right now, I'm betting money that there's a kneejerk nerf and tamers will walk around with dragons the strength of chickens.

    Wenchy
     
  15. <blockquote><hr>

    Right now, I'm betting money that there's a kneejerk nerf and tamers will walk around with dragons the strength of chickens.

    Wenchy

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah and I'd kinda hate to see that, these new dragons are neat and enjoyable as they are. I hope more care goes into it than that.
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I was basically watching these ninja tamers rack up insurance money.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I was under the impression that tamers dont get insurance for pet kills?
     
  17. <blockquote><hr>

    Requiring a control slot for the mounted speed animal form shouldn't affect any non tamer PvPer at all. Though I'm still convinced that the pet balls are the first target of any nerfing.

    Jeremy has already hinted at a balancing of the tamers, but nobody from EA has said anything about where they see a problem. Right now, I'm betting money that there's a kneejerk nerf and tamers will walk around with dragons the strength of chickens.

    Wenchy

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I love you

    srsly
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    You're right, if your pets get the kill you don't get the gold.

    There's been PvP tamer discontent about that for a while heh. I don't mind that, but I don't like leaving my pets to do all the work if I get a fight.

    Wenchy
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I see no problem whatsoever with making Animal Forms require a Control Slot. Any actual Stealth Ninja template would not even notice it, all it means is one less Mirror Image, even then, it's only minor. The only people i can think of that would oppose it are the people using Ninja Forms on their Tamer.
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    well i guess you should just have them nerf ninjitsu some more....

    [/ QUOTE ] Isn't that always the answer? Tamers get an uber pet,and to balance it,another skill get whacked with a nerf stick....

    [/ QUOTE ]If you aren't using 5 follower slots in addition to using ninja forms, you would remain virtually unaffected - one less mirror image comes to mind. My ninja/thief isn't going to miss a mirror image since I seldom find much use for it.

    Pet Summoning Balls need some careful consideration. I'm strongly in favour of a couple of things already suggested on the boards, specifically a summoning time equivalent to a 7th or 8th circle spell and *visible* words of power (eg, revealing from hiding/stealth).

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Go on! Click'em!
     
  21. Guest

    Guest Guest

    All they need to do is balance summon balls.

    A ninja in mounted form running and leaving his dragon 1 screen behind every 2 seconds and being able to summon it at his hearts content is a little annoying.
     
  22. <blockquote><hr>

    While it's been around, that doesn't mean the concept isn't flawed.

    Tamers (and players in general) have control slots for a -reason-.

    Being able to go into a mount speed form while at max control slots is wonky.

    While animal form is limited, I doubt those limits were there because you could bypass control slots, they were there because they offered -other- benefits.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Control slots are there to keep the number of control the number of pets used. The ninja form doesn't allow to control more pets.

    The problem may lie elsewhere. If the Devs decided to make the dragon take 5 slots to be sure no other pet is used, ninja form is not a problem. If the Dev made it take 5 slots to be sure the controller is on foot, then it is the design that is flawed.

    I want also to add that this possibility exists since UO:SE. A Ninja mage who casted two EV can be dismounted of a swampy and go away (after a delay) in ninja form.
     
  23. Very true, now that a trammie has complained on this subject maybe someone will listen.
     
  24. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    <blockquote><hr>

    Jeremy has already hinted at a balancing of the tamers, but nobody from EA has said anything about where they see a problem. Right now, I'm betting money that there's a kneejerk nerf and tamers will walk around with dragons the strength of chickens.

    [/ QUOTE ] I can tell the EA/Mythic guys where the problem is. Its the overpowered dragon. Ninjitsu isn't broken and neither is the pet balls. Either drop the super dragon back to normal,make it require 120 real skill in both taming and lore to tame the dragon,or make it where the dragon is completely out of reach of any taming attempt. Simple as that.
     
  25. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    Jeremy has already hinted at a balancing of the tamers, but nobody from EA has said anything about where they see a problem. Right now, I'm betting money that there's a kneejerk nerf and tamers will walk around with dragons the strength of chickens.

    [/ QUOTE ] I can tell the EA/Mythic guys where the problem is. Its the overpowered dragon. Ninjitsu isn't broken and neither is the pet balls. Either drop the super dragon back to normal,make it require 120 real skill in both taming and lore to tame the dragon,or make it where the dragon is completely out of reach of any taming attempt. Simple as that.

    [/ QUOTE ]Meh, last month it was the rune beetle/mare and rune beetle/bake kitsune combo that was overpowered.

    It just drives home the point that the common denominators are pet ball abuse and ninja forms when used in conjunction with taming skill &amp; pets.

    On balancing, the gimplate dependent simply move on to the next gimplate. It was ever thus.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Go on! Click'em!
     
  26. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Was there a gimp tamer issue before these dragons came out? Yes. Would nerfing them solve the issue? Absolutely not. It nerfs the dragon, but how exactly do you propose balancing any pet when the pet ball spamming ninja can keep that pet right on your butt regardless?

    The damage an individual pet does is a moot point when it can be velcro fixed to an enemy. That dragon will still kill you, it'll just take marginally longer. But the PvP tamer won't use a nerfed dragon, they'll go back to runey + kit or mare. Save using extra skill points for control... Result = more complaints about overpowered tamers.

    So while it's clear you have issues with this dragon being tameable, for the sake of the taming profession, please try to understand that nerfing this dragon won't make the PvP complaints finish.

    Besides, how can it harm a PvPer if they use a control slot to pop animal form. Or if there was a nerf to pet balls, the current #1 on my hit list.

    Wenchy
     
  27. Guest

    Guest Guest

    A simple solution would be to make pets unresponsive to commands when their
    owner is in animal form. What self respecting Dragon is going to listen to a dog?
     
  28. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    A simple solution would be to make pets unresponsive to commands when their
    owner is in animal form. What self respecting Dragon is going to listen to a dog?

    [/ QUOTE ]
    <center> [​IMG]
    Dog ~ *bark bark*!!!!Sic em!
    Super Dragon ~ *roar?* ???? [​IMG] </center>

    Yep that what I vision as well.
     
  29. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    This has been said a number of times as well. Any 3/2 pet combination still out damages the new dragon by a significant amount.
     
  30. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Any ninja form that lets you run at mounted speed should use a control slot.
     
  31. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    The new, extra powerful dragons were set to take 5 control slots, presumably to cause the tamer to be on foot while using the new dragons for balance reasons.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    PRESUMABLY : by reasonable assumption

    Your entire complaint is based on an assumption about what the devs intended and not on any actual fact.

    Also, another example of PlayerX is killing me and therefore their template should be nerfed cause it's unfair.

    The dragon is a diversion to draw your attack away from the tamer. As long as you just try and kill the dragon, the tamer has the advantage. Concentrate your entire attack on the tamer instead. If they are busy healing themselves then they wont be able to control their dragon will they?

    Do you really think that you should be able to solo PvP a tamer/dragon team and win? If two reds attacked you using the same template as you... would you be asking for a nerf to your own template if they killed you... or would you just realize that it was 2 vs one and you didn't have much of a chance anyway?

    I remember when the Greater Dragons came out, many folks were happy that Dragons were finally getting their due respect. I guess they weren't thinking about what would happen once the tamers started using them.

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  32. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I remember when the Greater Dragons came out, many folks were happy that Dragons were finally getting their due respect. I guess they weren't thinking about what would happen once the tamers started using them.

    [/ QUOTE ]I strongly disagree. You see, PLENTY were thinking about what would happen once tamers started using greater dragons and PLENTY were right vocal about it, too!

    The problem was that damn few were willing to actively test them *despite* repeated open invitations from me here to test the ones I spent time training up for the purposes of testing on the Test Shard.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Go on! Click'em!
     
  33. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Any ninja form that lets you run at mounted speed should use a control slot.

    [/ QUOTE ]Agreed!

    That said, I don't think this alone is the cure all. I do think pet summoning balls, and even relogging for pets (so-called auto-stabling) both need some very careful consideration.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Go on! Click'em!
     
  34. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    I strongly disagree. You see, PLENTY were thinking about what would happen once tamers started using greater dragons and PLENTY were right vocal about it, too! <blockquote><hr>



    Ok, I give up! I followed many threads on Dragons, participated on a couple on UHall and even tried to start a discusion on Atlantic... but as you probably noticed for a while there were 2-3 new threads a day being started on the critters... so I missed the ones you're talking about. Woulda been nice to have a sticky on that topic since it generated so much discussion.

    That wasn't really the point I was trying to make anyway, shouldn't have tossed that in.

    Mea Culpa, Sam
     
  35. Nerf-Herder

    Nerf-Herder Guest

    I'm gonna say it 'til I'm blue in the face...

    ANIMAL FORM IS NOT THE PROBLEM!

    Look dude, shifting to animal form and charging onward at mountted speed does NOT make that damn dragon go any faster... PET BALLS DO IT.

    The animal formed ninja tamer will run by his target and repeatedly nail his pet ball macro.

    ninjitsu + taming = lol
    ninjitsu + taming + PET BALL = problem

    add a timer to pet ball useage and make it so the ITEM pet ball can NOT be used in animal form and you will have at least a partial fix for this problem.

    Adding a control slot to ninja form will just send tamers back to running a mare/beetle combo. They'll ride the mare and spam their pet ball macro while chasing their target.

    If anything else needs to be balanced after the pet ball, it will probably br some sort of a PvP only damage penalty applied to pets. (lower pet damage by 25% when the target is a player)

    Go after the real problem: PET BALLS
     
  36. Guest

    Guest Guest

    What is the real problem again, Caveman? *chuckles*
     
  37. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    The new, extra powerful dragons were set to take 5 control slots, presumably to cause the tamer to be on foot while using the new dragons for balance reasons.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    PRESUMABLY : by reasonable assumption

    Your entire complaint is based on an assumption about what the devs intended and not on any actual fact.

    Also, another example of PlayerX is killing me and therefore their template should be nerfed cause it's unfair.

    The dragon is a diversion to draw your attack away from the tamer. As long as you just try and kill the dragon, the tamer has the advantage. Concentrate your entire attack on the tamer instead. If they are busy healing themselves then they wont be able to control their dragon will they?

    Do you really think that you should be able to solo PvP a tamer/dragon team and win? If two reds attacked you using the same template as you... would you be asking for a nerf to your own template if they killed you... or would you just realize that it was 2 vs one and you didn't have much of a chance anyway?

    I remember when the Greater Dragons came out, many folks were happy that Dragons were finally getting their due respect. I guess they weren't thinking about what would happen once the tamers started using them.

    Safe Travels, Sam

    [/ QUOTE ]
    This is nonsense, and don't think I am misunderstanding you. (Apparently I was misunderstanding. I'll preserve what I said because it still applies, but I realize now Sam that I misunderstood you, so my vitriol was misdirected... [​IMG] ) This is just a repeat of the lame old insult that a tamer plus a pet = 2 characters. This is simply not true. A tamer has the same options for skill points and items that any other player has, and the pet is a part of that template, whatever the pet may be.

    I still say, 90% of tamers that I have seen on my shard who tend to think that pvp'ing with a pet is going to be easy, end up dead with dead pets. The big difference now is that there is much less of a chance that a greater dragon will actually die, but from everything that I have seen, the results for the actual tamer are much the same, only the skilled, experienced tamers actually do well in pvp, which is probably the way it should be, even with a greater dragon.

    I don't have any problem with pet ball "fixes" or auto-stabling "fixes", and if ninja tamers really are a problem, which they aren't yet on my shard, then the fix for that is simply to make pet balls unusable if you are in animal form. That only makes sense.

    There are two major problems with the other pet ball and auto stable "fixes". There is no other class that is forced to retrain after a death, and pet balls and auto stabling, in the hands of a tamer that knows what they are doing, can help prevent that. There is also no other class that is unable to chase their opponents, which would be the case if pet balls were "fixed".

    I don't have a problem with changes to the way pet balls work, although I think if ninjas couldn't use pet balls in animal form, that would solve most of the problems, but if there are changes to pet balls and auto stabling, the skill decay on a pet death needs to be gotten rid of, and the chase AI for pets needs to be improved so that they can't so easily be hung up on the corners of buildings, and other objects.

    And while we're at it, is there some good reason, other than the old "tamers don't belong in pvp" attitude, that tamers don't get gold when they get a kill in pvp? Is this some kind of punishment for being a pvp tamer? That is something else that is patently unfair, and it should be changed.

    If you want to change pet balls and/or auto-stabling, go right ahead, but skill decay needs to go, and the AI for chasing pets needs to be improved. And while you're at it, stop punishing players for pvp'ing with pets in other ways, and give them proper credit for their kills.
     
  38. Nerf-Herder

    Nerf-Herder Guest

    Don't make me PK your mom again old man!
     
  39. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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  40. rtlfc

    As probably said 100 times by now:

    This isn't new.
    This isn't 'abuse of a ninja spell'
    This isn't a ninja issue.

    Considering most of the ninjitsu book is worthless apart from mounted speed animal forms I hope this thread gets ignored as it deserves by anyone in a place to actually do anything.

    Pets are overpowered and always have been. Coupled with summong balls in fel it's even worse.

    Either nerf pets to something sensible, or nerf pets damage vs players, or nerf pet balls.
     
  41. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    A simple solution would be to make pets unresponsive to commands when their
    owner is in animal form. What self respecting Dragon is going to listen to a dog?

    [/ QUOTE ]
    <center> [​IMG]
    Dog ~ *bark bark*!!!!Sic em!
    Super Dragon ~ *roar?* ???? [​IMG] </center>

    Yep that what I vision as well.

    [/ QUOTE ] How is this different from the dragon taking commande from and 'elf mcnugget'?
     
  42. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    <blockquote><hr>

    Go after the real problem: PET BALLS

    [/ QUOTE ] You want to neuter the dragons? Thats harsh,even for me [​IMG]
     
  43. Nerf-Herder

    Nerf-Herder Guest

    You know, I oft wonder how dark-age era veterinarians nuetered pet dragons...
     
  44. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I'm gonna say it 'til I'm blue in the face...

    ANIMAL FORM IS NOT THE PROBLEM!

    Look dude, shifting to animal form and charging onward at mountted speed does NOT make that damn dragon go any faster... PET BALLS DO IT.

    The animal formed ninja tamer will run by his target and repeatedly nail his pet ball macro.

    ninjitsu + taming = lol
    ninjitsu + taming + PET BALL = problem

    add a timer to pet ball useage and make it so the ITEM pet ball can NOT be used in animal form and you will have at least a partial fix for this problem.

    Adding a control slot to ninja form will just send tamers back to running a mare/beetle combo. They'll ride the mare and spam their pet ball macro while chasing their target.

    If anything else needs to be balanced after the pet ball, it will probably br some sort of a PvP only damage penalty applied to pets. (lower pet damage by 25% when the target is a player)

    Go after the real problem: PET BALLS

    [/ QUOTE ]


    At least someone else knows what thier talking about!
     
  45. GreywolfUK

    GreywolfUK Sage
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    LOL you owe me a new keyboard [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG].

    The main problem I see is the use of pet SUMMONING balls, how about the change it like they did the BoS, the more control slots a pet uses equals the charges used on the the pet summoning ball, as well as adding a delay timer.
     
  46. <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    I was basically watching these ninja tamers rack up insurance money.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I was under the impression that tamers dont get insurance for pet kills?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Oops yeah you're right, I forgot about that when I said that. Too used to "real" pvp heheh
     
  47. <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    The new, extra powerful dragons were set to take 5 control slots, presumably to cause the tamer to be on foot while using the new dragons for balance reasons.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    PRESUMABLY : by reasonable assumption

    Your entire complaint is based on an assumption about what the devs intended and not on any actual fact.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No, it was deduced by logic. I'll explain it again, this time more straightforward.

    Prior to the release of the new dragons, all dragons required 4 control slots. This allowed a tamer to have one other 1-slot pet under his control.

    For some reason, the Dev people decided to make the new, powerful dragons take up 5 pet slots instead of 4.

    There are 2 uses for 1 slot pets: (1) as fighters and (2) as mounts. Changing the number of pet slots from 4 to 5 for these dragons could only have been with the intent of eliminating one or both of these possibilities in conjunction with the use of a new dragon.

    Regarding 1-slot fighting pets: To my knowledge, the most effective fighting 1-slot pets would be Hell Hounds and Frenzied Ostards. These singularly do low damage amounts and have a very low hit point base.

    Tamers don't pair up a hell hound or a frenzied ostard with large HP base pets because these pet combos don't work properly. The large HP base pets (Cu Sidhes, Hiryus, New Dragons) tend to be used against monsters that do a lot of damage, as their HP base gives the tamer time and room to work on healing the pet.

    Have you ever seen someone using their Cu Sidhe and a Frenzied Ostard on Lady M? You don't because it doesn't work. I happen to have tried it because I was riding my frenzied ostard with Cu Sidhe in tow one day and went there. My frenzied ostard is one of the best around, at 110 HP with very close to max resists. Healing it through the wither was about impossible, and when Lady M cycled to the frenzied, it was an insta-kill. The combo of cu sidhe and a 1-slot, low hit point pet is nonsensical in application.

    The adjustment of the new dragons from 4 slots to 5 could not have been meant to invalidate what would have been a nonsensical pairing of pets (superdragon + hell hound or frenzied ostard).

    The remaining possibility is that they did not want tamers to be able to be mounted while using this particular pet, and the combination of mounted player + pet happens to make sense as something tamers would prefer, if given the choice.

    So there you go. What the rest of us can deduce or intuitively sensed has now been explained for the minority of us who couldn't get it.
     
  48. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend GoT

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    If you're going to scream for yet another nerf to Non PvP Tamers and their templates, why don't we just ask the devs to make everyone have an automatic 1 follower. Afterall, I"m using Ninja to transform MYSELF, hello?????. Why should it be a control slot?
     
  49. <blockquote><hr>

    rtlfc

    As probably said 100 times by now:

    This isn't new.
    This isn't 'abuse of a ninja spell'
    This isn't a ninja issue.

    Considering most of the ninjitsu book is worthless apart from mounted speed animal forms I hope this thread gets ignored as it deserves by anyone in a place to actually do anything.

    Pets are overpowered and always have been. Coupled with summong balls in fel it's even worse.

    Either nerf pets to something sensible, or nerf pets damage vs players, or nerf pet balls.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It's new in that there's never been a single, 5 slot pet before. This is the first time that the UO people deliberately made a pet which forces a tamer to not have a mount available.

    It was called fixing an abuse when the former ability to use ninja animal form to run up to someone with a bola swinging was removed. Bolas were not intended to be used by mounted players, yet using a ninja form in this way made it functionally possible. Similarly, 5-slot dragons were not intended to be used by mounted players (see my prior post for why I suspect this), so the idea of it being an abuse comes to my mind.

    Even thematically it looks like an abuse. Ninja skills have been pushed by the UO people to be tied to things like stealth, tracking, and weapons skills, there are no tie-in relationships between Ninja skills and Taming. The inclusion of Ninja into a taming template would be for the purpose of allowing a player to use just one function in one particular spell, animal form, so that they can bypass the 5-slot restriction that's interfering with them being able to be mounted.

    .... but yeah if they don't change it, then it means that its NOT an abuse, and I'ma have myself a ninja tamer too! I'll give it some time though, I dont want to stone that stuff over for nothing.
     
  50. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    ...So there you go. What the rest of us can deduce or intuitively sensed has now been explained for the minority of us who couldn't get it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So you've gone from a presumption to a deduction but you still dont know that is why the devs did it. I always love the posts that end up insulting someone else...just because you dont have the ability to make your point clearly doesn't mean I dont get it. Try making sense and not using deductions that are clear only to you and close friends. This is a public forum. Folks aren't always going to agree with you or understand your point of view.

    Safe Travels, Sam