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A PAH Announcement and Apology!

Discussion in 'UHall' started by DJLandon, Apr 19, 2010.

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  1. DJLandon

    DJLandon Guest

    A Pacific Auction House Announcement and Apology!

    Apologies to all, for us taking so long to make any "official" response to the unfortunate event that happened this past Saturday.

    Sadly, the Pacific Auction House (PAH) and Whispering Rose Radio (WRR) Staffs are just... well maybe too trusting! And, were in a state of shock!

    In the interest of supporting an event that was created and run by dedicated UO players on the Pacific Shard, PAH and WRR, allowed someone to become part of our team. Unfortunately, in the end, it became clear, after the damage was done, that he had no honor or integrity at all!

    It is a mistake we made and one that we are determined not to repeat!

    The Pacific Rares Festival was one of the most ambitious and complex events put together by actual UO players in recent memory. It took months of planning.

    PAH and WRR thank everyone for your support.... which has been overwhelming.

    The events that happened and ultimately prevented the rares Auction from occurring were regretable...

    But rest assured, PAH and WRR, take full responsiblity and will be contacting those who had losses, and compensating them accordingly.
     
  2. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    *shrugs* contact Mesanna and get them banned.

    EA reserves the right to end service... whenever they want and for whatever reason, it's in the EULA.
     
  3. curlybeard

    curlybeard Seasoned Veteran
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    Question withdrawn. thought better than to go down this road ...
     
  4. SchezwanBeefy

    SchezwanBeefy Lore Master
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    While I think what the guy did was despicable, he did nothing illegal in game. WRR co-owned too many people and screwed themselves. It's nice to finally get an apology.
     
  5. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    For what, being a UOThief.
     
  6. BeefSupreme

    BeefSupreme Guest

    Considering what I know about this, it's not a 'role-playing' event. This was basically a scam organized by a few people. Since EA is not directly involved the EULA is not in consideration.

    Now, what the people involved should think about...

    Thanking gold selling websites for creating real tangible value to these items.

    Figuring out what the real money value of these items are.

    Cause problems for the scammers if the victim knows someone in the right
    place in law enforcement.

    I don't know what the outcome could be, but I do know someone could at least
    make the scammer's life suck for quite awhile. :)
     
  7. canary

    canary Guest

    Well, usually if you steal something of enough importance you always face the consequence of justice.
     
  8. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    Heroes and Villains... anybody read that thread? Well this is it. A villain has pulled of the ultimate heist, a community is suffering for it. What do we do about it?
     
  9. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    The problem with this is scaming is not illegal in UO unless you can prove an exploit was used. Don't get me wrong, I do not like what he did, but what he did was not illegal. No court in the US would do anything to this person in real and if someone in law enforcement did anything to him/her you both could be in for some very real legal actions.
     
  10. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    And the only justice we have is player justice. No GM or Dev can do anything about this and if they do then anyone that has ever been scammed should expect the same justice from the GMs and DEVs no matter the value of the item.
     
  11. canary

    canary Guest

    I personally feel this case is a bit different than most other cases. And if Mythic wants to create a policy on case-by-case, I have no issue with that.

    I'm not affected by this thing (I play Great Lakes) but I can only imagine the frustration, annoyance and even sadness that some people may feel.
     
  12. Coragin

    Coragin Guest

    I think this belongs on the Pacific shard forum as it is a shard issue from what I gather. Or can we all just post shard issues in uhall?
     
  13. jbfortune

    jbfortune Slightly Crazed
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    What happened?
     
  14. BeefSupreme

    BeefSupreme Guest

    Are you sure? Have you checked for precedents?
     
  15. Mapper

    Mapper Crazed Zealot
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    A shard issue that has affected rares collectors on many many different shards...

    I don't see any reason why it has to be moved.
     
  16. Coragin

    Coragin Guest

    Because it happened on Pacific and not every shard. That would be like something happening to me on ATL then complaining about it on Origin. Now if it happened on every shard, I could see it as a shard wide issue. But, it didnt, what ever this is happened on Pacific and Pacific only, from what I can tell. Therefore it is a Pacific issue, weather people created or transfered toons to that shard for this even is irrelevant, it happened on pacific its a pacific shard issue not a shard wide issue as it is effecting toons that were on the pacific shard at the time of the incident.

    Come on its not that hard of a concept to grasp, happened on pacific, belongs in pacific forum.

    And my two cents on the banning of someone who scammed someone out of an item, as long as it was done in game and the person in question did not log into someone elses account and take what ever it is, then EA should not get involved. Dont trust anyone with your stuff! If you cant handle losing an item, dont hand it to someone else, period, end of story.

    PS still belongs in Pac forum not in uhall
     
  17. canary

    canary Guest

    As much as I click to the mods 'belongs in x forum' I disagree.

    This was a multi shard rares festival that impacted people from shards beyond Pacific.
     
  18. MYUO

    MYUO Guest

    If the EMs, who are representatives of EA/Mystic, were involved in this festival and the stealing is considered as excessive griefing, EA/Mystic can make a case and take action against the theif. Leaving the players to sort out the mess ran the risk of making many hardcore UO players unhappy and will encourage this kind of thing happen again.
     
  19. Lord Gareth

    Lord Gareth UO Content Editor | UO Chesapeake & Rares News
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    Thank you Landon for the update.
    I know you guys are doing everything
    possible to get things straightened out.




    *Tips hat*

    See 5. Rights and Responsibilities. (c)

    For those wanting the company to do something. I do not feel EA/Mythic should take responsibility for others actions. They are not responsible for the event or any problems during the event. Should EA/Mythic step in they will find themselves knee deep in crap but that is the choice of the company not ours.
     
  20. jbfortune

    jbfortune Slightly Crazed
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    Why would EA do anything? I don't really see its got anything to do with them. If they assist with this then what stops everyone asking for items back they've had stolen.
     
  21. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    UO thieves get guard whacked or killed by the player they steal from, by the same line of reasoning this thief should get banned.

    Just because it's a possible play style, doesn't mean it's unpunishable. Are you going to justify murder in real life since it's possible in UO? I didn't think so.
     
  22. Coragin

    Coragin Guest

    Did all the events happen on multiple shards? Or did it all happen on Pacific? If it all happened on Pacific, it belongs in Pacific forum not uhall. Weather or not people who attended have toons on other servers is not the point, if they were playing on Pacific and it happened on Pacific it belongs in the Pacific forum period. I play on multiple shards, if something happens on one I dont go complaining on uhall or a shard that it didnt happen on.

    All I am saying is if all this happened on pacific and pacific only and thats what it looks like, it belong on PAcific forum, not here. It dont matter if people intended on transfering items off pacific or not, when this happened it was on pacific NOT their home shard, this is not a shard wide issue. A multiple people issue yes, but shard wide it is not since it did not happen on all shards, it happened on pacific.

    Is this really that hard of a concept to grasp? It happened on pacific, it didnt happen on atlantic, it didnt happen on europia, it didnt happen on great lakes, it happened on pacific. The fact that the players it effected have toons on other servers does not change the fact that it only happened on Pacific. A lot of players impacted, yes, one server, yes, multiple servers? NO.

    Again just because these people planned to transfer things to other servers does not make it a multiple server issue. That would be like me getting scammed (would never happen but) and claiming that I was gonna transfer one thing to every server, but because I was scammed I cant so it makes it a multiple server issue. Nope sorry I dont buy it, it happened on one server, it should be on that servers forums. UHall is not the place for server issues, your server forum is.
     
  23. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Great reasoning! "If you can't catch every single criminal, you might as well pack it up, go home, and not even try to catch one, especially when there's a boatload of evidence!"
     
  24. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I've been following this and understand how bad this whole this thing is. People lost tons of items, very valuable items.

    But in terms of UO, what was illegal here? Too many people were trusted and co-owned that no one truly knew well enough. While it would be great to have EA/Mythic go after the person they would be over-stepping their rules because this was a player run event supported by players. If they made exceptions here they would have to make exceptions in the future.

    In the future those running the event simply need to trust people only they know well enough to put the safety of the rares in their hands.
     
  25. omgmir

    omgmir Guest

    Derp. (edited)
     
  26. Stop being a Troll.

    People came from almost every shard for this event.
     
  27. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Very sad that this happened.

    -Galen's player
     
  28. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    UHall is the perfect place for such a post that needs to reach players on all shards.

    While the specific incident did occur on Pacific, it effects players from numerous shards. It also effects the reputation of WRR that goes well beyond Pacific.

    Thanks to DJLandon and the team for their honesty and integrity. Best of luck in your efforts to make it right for all involved.
     
  29. sablestorm

    sablestorm Certifiable
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    Yes, virtual items have real world value now, but this is a slipperly slope. After all, playing a thief character in Felucca is quite valid in UO, correct? One could argue, however, that just like the scammer, should they steal an item which now has real world value, you could get the police involved.

    Just like stealing is legal in Felucca, it's not against the rules to remove items from house containers you have access to.

    Yes, it's despicable behavior, but it's not something you could get the police or even EA involved in.
     
  30. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    So, let me get this right...

    Someone was entrusted access to said rare items, either via access to an account, container or recieving from players? They upped and buggered off with them?

    Not a great deal EA/Mythic can do there, no matter how sour the taste is.

    I've seen it happen before and nasty as it is to see, they won't likely get involved. Such is the shame that there are still people around who are so callous, they are happy to effectively kill the fun other people try to have, all in the name of $$$ and "sod the concequences, there's nothing anyone can do!".

    Things like this destroy communities and make any form of trust between players, a rare thing indeed.

    I'm sorry you guys and gals have experienced something like this. Personally, I'm all for naming and shaming the person concerned, but I doubt you'll get any joy there with the forum TOS. :(
     
  31. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    What's Legal and Illegal actually has little to do with what's Right and Wrong.

    The judiciary system is a human attempt to judge between right and wrong, good intentions versus bad intentions, accidents versus malicious acts.
    The end-goal of a legal system is to give justice.
    Since we're not omniscient, we can't have a perfect legal system, the best we can do is invent laws with as few loopholes within them as we can. Problem is, it's really easy to get through loop-holes if you're good at it.

    ... if you can fit yourself through a legal loop-hole, does that mean your actions were justifiable and good, or does it mean that the law was written poorly?

    Too many people view the legal system as a game: if you do wrong, but are clever enough to find a way to use the system against itself, then you get away free. Rewarding ingenuity rather than morality.

    So, I say, if you have all the facts, have all the evidence? What more is needed?
     
  32. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    ... why are scripters and speedhackers banned? because their actions harm the community as a whole.

    What happened here?
    ... someone's actions severely and measurable harmed the community as a whole.

    Heck! They ban people scripting skill gain, and one person scripting a skill has almost absolutely no measurable effect on the shard as a whole?
    Wouldn't they be hypocrites excused something so certain, so verifiable and measurably harmful and condemned something with barely any noticeable effect?

    (and i'm not justifying scripters in anyway, i'm merely using them as a comparison)
     
  33. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    True. And yes what they did was wrong. But the problem is if EA/Mythic oversteps their bounds and goes after them because it is simply wrong, they would be inclined to go after other people that wronged others in the future over similar instances.

    If EA/Mythic only takes action in this instance but not the future they would receive a lot more criticism for acting only once but not again for similar circumstances.

    But by legal I meant legal in UO's terms. The terms on when a GM will or will not act.
     
  34. Shelleybean

    Shelleybean Certifiable
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    It is unforuntate that things like this happen in UO. The players involved must not have any conscience whatsoever. Scamming is not illegal in UO, but it sure isn't right. I hope they get what's coming to them.
     
  35. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest


    If they do it once, they don't have to do it every time.
    I don't think they should implement a GM-run judiciary system to govern over player disputes or anything, but this is something incredibly simple, easy to verify (check the account... if it has the rares, they've got the right account). In short, I don't think they should wade through more complex issues, but something like this has a huge impact *and* it's incredibly simple to solve.
    They've set up much more complicated schemes to expose dupers and exploiters. Why not fix something so simple?

    So what if they receive criticism? Are the critic's angry text-formative pixels going to rise up and attack them? Unlikely.
    Any criticism would be impotent, and if it's impotent (and unjustifiable)... who cares about it?
     
  36. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Ahh, good point. We shall see though. Saw a dev post here saying something of karma. Now it's gone. So they are watching this issue.
     
  37. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Darned guys are intentionally cryptic, they speak while saying nothing at all. :D
     
  38. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Crazed Zealot
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    This.
    I didn't have a dog in this hunt, so I wasn't affected by the theft.
    But if, and I've posted this before, EA/Mythic gets involved in this, it's a whole new can of worms they are opening. People get scammed, robbed, stolen from on a daily basis in UO. And the official stance is "we cannot replace nor retrieve those items".
    Why should they now? Because some big names lost something? Or because some big names were scammed/stolen from?
    I don't think so. I don't think it would be right for them to do so much as check who has em in their possession, or in any way aid in the investigation.

    I remember a few years ago, a friend and guildmate of mine got her account hacked. When I logged in to the game, the first house I was in had the sign changed to be named "Looted by Jud" LOL

    5 houses cleaned out by a friended char, and no one woould do anything about it. Took an act of Congress almost for her to get the account back too! If they do anything to help this, then I want my crap back too :p

    Sure they were high value items, sure they were from some well known peeps perhaps. But in the end, each and every one of us pay the same per month to access these servers, so each and every one of us should be able to expect the same "justice" from EA.

    Hate to be the dissenting opinion here, but the line has long been drawn, don't cross it now.

    [/rant]
     
  39. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    First off... it's sad when something like this happens.

    And I for one feel that the things I acquire in-game while they may be "Just Pixels" are every bit as near and dear as that painting on my own wall... or ring on my finger in RL. And if someone I let into my home came in and stole them I'd be very upset... and I would have a legal recourse...

    Sadly there is no such thing in the game.

    Now... it's a shame that one or two people can ruin something that is meant to be fun and enjoyable for so many. And what's more sad is that oft times the ones who commit these acts think nothing of it. To them it's just a game and it's just pixels... all they see are dollars. Sadly the attachment of RL money to in-game items while bound to happen just opens up a very ugly can of worms.

    Now.... as for EA overstepping their bounds... they can hardly overstep any bounds... it's their game.... they can do anything they D*** well please... it says so right in their policy. They reserve the right to take any action they so desire... it is WE the players who have zero recourse.

    Honestly if I were the DEV's... I'd take the crap back from the thief and delete it or put it in a "museum"... where it can't be touched and burn the little thief's home to the ground... But that's just me.

    It's long been my opinion that the DEV's and EA should treat scammers like the criminals that they are...and quit treating the victims like crap. Scamming is a CRIME... whether it's done in RL or in-game. And sadly there is NO way for a player to do anything at all about them.

    One thing I've done is follow the scammer around and warn everyone about them... This usually peeves them off .... but what else can you do? I suppose I could get banned for harassment but at least I wouldn't suffer a guilty conscience for standing by and doing nothing while scammers cheat other players out of hard earned items.


    This reminds me VERY much of when I first started playing UO:R... I recall reading through the players manual that came with the game thinking "Ok..... right... trust no one... talk to no one.... let no one stand close to me.... " .... "Um.... ok .... so.... why is this an MMO if you aren't supposed to interact with anyone?"... Heck I spent the whole first Month or so not speaking to ANYONE in-game and Running from everyone... That was sure fun..... NOT. Fortunately I finally broke down and began to "trust"... But after losing a few hard earned things... you eventually learned who your true friends are.

    Thankful I have several of them.

    Too bad you can't trust anyone... though with that kind of money at stake I think I would have been FAR less trusting.
     
  40. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    What is needed here is a "whoops" revert. Won't happen and really shouldn't but it would be nice to see.

    Sadly, these people placed thier items at risk. While clearly the biggest risk was hidden and cruel by design sadly this is nearly the case everytime still the fact is that these people intrusted thier items to a unknown group of people on the internet who's only protection was themselves. This action failed.

    These things have happened before: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5613SL20090702 and shall happen again.

    The "thief" should have a good karma role coming though, watch out.
     
  41. Magdalene

    Magdalene Stratics Legend
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    If you wish to moderate UHall, fell free to submit a request... if you don't - let the resident mods do they job the way they/we see fit.
    KHTXBYE
     
  42. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    As they did, when the region of Luna on one of the shards started losing lockdown items.

    Only thing is, why revert? They can reverse the effect easily without reversing everything on the shard for everyone else.
     
  43. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I haven't read the entire thread carefully, so if I am just repeating what others have already said, forgive me. I'm truly sorry for people that lost valuable treasures, but this game needs to be less safe, not more safe.

    I hate to be the one defending a scammer, but if you can pull off a scam, without exploiting game mechanics, or cheating or hacking in any way, then you deserve your ill gotten gains. And if you get scammed in these conditions, then I'm afraid you also deserve your losses.

    We all need to realize that nothing in the game is permanent, no matter how precious or rare it may be. And we can all lose everything, at any time, in any number of ways. The only thing that can't be stolen from you in the game is the true friendship you find, and your good memories.

    And while I said that a well played scam has earned it's ill gotten gains, at the same time I also believe in karma. "Live by the sword, die by the sword." People that play the game that way will find in the end that their actions will bring them grief, and those that play the game with generosity and honesty will also find themselves rewarded, if in no other way they will at the very least gain the friendship of honest and generous people.

    Which is in my opinion far more precious than the most valuable "rare" pixels the game has to offer.
     
  44. longshanks

    longshanks Guest

    Agreed with LLewelyn. This is not EA's fault. It is the Auction houses. They wanted to hold the auction, they should make sure its secure. The Auction house is responsible and should make good to the players that lost items.

    See how fast that happens. Instead they will look for a Gov't (read EA) bailout.

    Noone takes responsibility for anything anymore.

    That being said it was one hellava theft. Is it the biggest in UO history?
    I heard they got the lotto too!

    My take is the theives should get a monument built at Yew gate.
     
  45. Chad Sexington

    Chad Sexington Lore Master
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    *pokes head in*

    (Oh, Trammel.)

    *quietly leaves*

    :(
     
  46. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    So don't.

    And this of course is exactly what scammers are most proud of taking from us. You can never know 100% that someone you know, whether you feel the immediate connection or a longer-term friendship with someone, isn't going to scam you, steal from you, take you for everything in your house that he or she has access to.

    They have created an environment that's so cutthroat and so competitive, that people will come here and defend their behavior, largely out of sheer admiration for what they can get away with, regardless of the harm caused.

    -Galen's player
     
  47. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    At the top of this thread is an apology and the commitment to make good on the losses. No need to rub salt in the wound.
     
  48. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Same thing happened in Felucca.

    Yes you could kill them, but they almost always had more friends than you did. Most people are wretched by nature, and it's always easier to get people to come together for ill than for good.

    *shrugs*

    Honestly this "argument" that it's somehow Trammel's fault is so far from reality it'd be almost laughable were it not pathetically part of so many posters' repertoire that its achieved recognition despite its utter lack of validity or sense.

    -Galen's player
     
  49. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Rubbing salt in the wound is the whole point.

    Doesn't anyone get it yet?

    -Galen's player
     
  50. Mairut

    Mairut Guest

    This.

    It wasn't entirely the thieves' fault for looking to steal the items.

    It also doesn't have anything to do with whether or not EA will help by replacing lost or stolen items.

    It fell under auction house's (owners?) responsibility to make sure all the items were safe... don't try to distort the issue here, people.

    There are hundreds of items handled every week at different auction houses all over UO. The ones that I've been to, very very few people have had access to the items being sold, regardless of whether they are part of the guild or help to organize it.

    I also saw someone's post about one of the dev's chiming in... and I think I would expect them to investigate the issue just to be sure that this wasn't done with the use of an exploit. Wouldn't you?

    Still doesn't mean they have to do anything about it.

    (Galen, bite me).

    I'm just glad that the auction house and wrr are doing the right thing, trying to make things better. That should help, somewhat.
     
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