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A plea for UOGuide

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Korik Bloodguard, Nov 23, 2010.

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  1. Korik Bloodguard

    Korik Bloodguard Lore Keeper
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    First, I want to say I'm in no way affiliated with UOGuide.

    The accessibility of UO knowledge is really poor right now. For new players, Stratics is not quite up to task because so much of what we talk about is extremely esoteric, and even so, so much knowledge of the intricacies of the game are not easily accessible. The UO website is also not really a useful place to look for information.

    What I'd like to see happen is for everyone who has some kind of knowledge to put it down in UOGuide. It's a Wiki and everyone can edit it. A lot of the information on UOGuide is really good but needs some refining:For example, spell descriptions are generally extremely poor and need some love.

    And to copy from UOG:

    This is not only inadequate but it's also incorrect.

    Let's see the great accumulated wealth of information about this game, that all you wonderful people have in your noggins, put down in a useful, searchable, and accurate form :)

    Ultima Online Gameplay Guide - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia

    KBG
     
  2. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    better a few incorrects than not being there at all. I feel Stratics offers a wealth of information, simply Outstanding, and gets regular updates and corrections. UOG seems acceptable as an Auxiliary information source only
     
  3. Babble

    Babble Guest

    Sounds good
     
  4. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    To my opinion, the only way to create a comprehensible guide for such a complex game is a Wiki where everybody can contribute. Make the first step and correct said entry!

    I always have trouble finding information in the mess of UO Stratics menus, although Stratics contains VERY useful and good information. Even the search function does not work correctly.

    I wish both would combine their information and create one big Wiki for UO. That's what would help new players, old players and the game most.
     
  5. Babble

    Babble Guest

    I prefer uoguide as it has the easier search option and sometimes pictures to find
     
  6. Magdalene

    Magdalene Stratics Legend
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    You can, and you should, contribute towards updating Stratics databases and essays. Not allowing a wiki has the advantage of previous screening of the information that gets published...
    You should really talk to Petra...
    (instead of rooting for another site here, just sayin')
     
  7. Merion

    Merion Lore Master
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    I concur. there's some real good info on stratics, but I usually have a hard time finding it.

    UOG is a lot more modern, streamlined and open. And compared to the relatively few people who actively contribute there, it is very well run and full of great info.

    And yes, if I find something that's wrong or incomplete I can simpy add it. I have no clue how I could contribute to stratics other than sending a pm to petra.
     
  8. Magdalene

    Magdalene Stratics Legend
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    How many people do you think contribute for Stratics content pages?
    And yes, talking to Petra is the way to go, what's the problem in that? You can simply send a message saying "so and so value you mention here is not 50 but 51, I checked it several times" and I can assure you the information will vevified and updated very quickly.
    If you're more ambitious - you can apply for a position with the content team.
     
  9. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Horrible doublework though.

    But Petra and others might not necessarily know if its right information either and if they publish wrong information it takes quite some time to get corrected.

    The databases are good, but for UO information, a wiki is just superior.

    Its cumbersome and doesn't easily allow for incomplete edits by multiple authors that completes a work. (apart from database)

    Easier to edit a wiki than to start applying for a position and milling around with that. Some people don't like the stress of being staff at any site.
     
  10. Tjalle

    Tjalle Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Campaign Supporter Gilfane

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    Can you edit what others have posted too?

    If so, what´s to stop other players from just editing it and putting in information that´s wrong?

    (I´m just wondering in general out of curiousity, not to degrade any Wiki site)
     
  11. Dude the problem is your question.

    Seriously what do you want to know? Ask it and you can get a great answer here.

    If youre trying to find a site that has all of UO in it. Good luck. It wont happen. The knowledge to play is vast. It is meant to be learned over time. There are still things I don't know.

    Again... another case of someone wanting something at their finger tips for immediate gain.

    Did I tell you about the day i first died and walked t2a for hours as a ghost because I didn't know to be in attack mode...
     
  12. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Nothing, but since its easier to undo false information than it is to write it, most people tend to not bother. Its very few people who have the ambition of simply causing vandalism when it doesn't bother anyone.

    In the end wiki's thrive on that there are more positive people on there than negative people, so its fairly selfpolicing. I am part of running a very large wiki too and have run Stratics largest wiki in the past. But despite tens of thousands of edits, the amount of vandalism has been very rare and was easily handled.
     
  13. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    This is how its meant to be and is to be if UO is ever going to hope to have a gain of players. Noone wants to have to live on a forum just to play a game.

    That was fine back in the days when UO was new and it was another era of games...it just doesn't cut it today.
     
  14. AirmidCecht

    AirmidCecht twitch.tv/airmid
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    I see the value in both methods actually.

    There is no need to discredit the hard work our content people offer Stratics and we are always looking for input, you do not have to be on staff to offer that. Heck if someone wrote up a nice new player guide covering the the range of information they need to know to get started in game, I would venture it would get strung up in neon lights for everyone to see with due credit to the author. I can't speak for Petra on that but let's say I'm pretty confident.

    On the issue of finding information at Stratics via the search method, this is something we can put more focus on to make things easier even with the large amounts of data collected over the years.

    That said, UOGuide is another great resource as are all the fansites that highlight the great things about UO. I've never seen it as an either or sort of thing but more of us being parts of the body that is Ultima Online. We all play a part in keeping the community active and informed.
     
  15. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I have no objection to people inviting others to contribute to uoguide, which is a valuable resource which I feel complements well our information on Stratics, and vice versa. However I very strongly object to someone denigrating our own uo.stratics site.

    The custom google search box finds anything I look for.
    The menus are arranged in the most logical order I can find.
    Anyone who has contributed information to the site can testify to how quickly that information is incorporated into the site.

    You can not compare uoguide to the Stratics forums, they are totally different entities.
    Comparing uoguide to uo.stratics site is more reasonable, and while neither is perfect, together they are the most comprehensive source of information anyone could ever want.

    I have put in many, many hours of work to bring Stratics up to date.
     
  16. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    I too am confused what he is asking, The info he posted/quoted is currently correct? Or did I miss something?
     
  17. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    First to commend Petra on her hard work =p (I know its a lot...)

    Second, Petra do people ever send you uh, whats the word...where they ask if a different order might seem more logical and providing the order they think? Just wondering, not that I ever have issues with finding things on Stratics, just wondering based on what you said if anyone has ever offered an alternative system or order.
     
  18. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    The problem is that its triple work for same result, causing a lot of duplicate work, which is not so good for a dwindling game like UO.
     
  19. Madrid

    Madrid Slightly Crazed
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    I'll alway go to UOguide before stratics when seeking information. The way stratics is set up is an absolute mess as far as finding and searching for information on UO related topics. I have to specifically google UO Stratics XYZ when trying to locate information on a specific topic. Trying to maneuver around the actual stratics website is a nightmare.

    UOGuide is very easy to navigate through extremely accurate. The OP is off his rocker as far as I'm concerned because he found one flaw in one of the listings at UOGuide that no one has bothered to edit. So fix it...

    Gimme a break OP. Your going to tell me UO Stratics has never posted information that turned out to be inaccurate after further review.rolleyes:

    I love stratics and I love UOGuide. I'm glad we have both.:thumbup1:
     
  20. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    yes. The collapsing menus were created in response to feedback from the boards. The professions and skills lists were amalagamated in response to complaints that skills information was in two different places.
    I have done the best I know how.
    If anyone thinks they can do better they're welcome to apply to George for the position.
     
  21. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Its not a good sign if you have to apply for positions for changes to happen.

    Anyway, the menu's have always been a problem child. They're needed, but also confusing.

    Too bad UO Stratics didn't switch to an advanced wiki format back when they had the chance many years ago.
     
  22. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    uo.stratics has a perfectly good custom google search box at the top of the left menu. I can't be held responsible for people's inability to use it.
     
  23. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Thats neither here nor there, as I didn't comment about the search ability of the site, only the menus.
     
  24. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Just to return to this. Its very easy to see what is changed and as such any bad edits are easy to catch. It also makes it very easy for players to see what changes have been made recently, one thing thats pretty hard to do on a static website.

    Its like this (example taken from another wiki):

    Very easy to see how much and what has been changed by who at any point in time.
     
  25. Babble

    Babble Guest

    But why google in a forum when I have a wiki which presents the answers probably quicker?
     
  26. Mapper

    Mapper Crazed Zealot
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    The google search box searches uo.stratics.com not the forum.
     
  27. Babble

    Babble Guest

    Yes, but I got the forums bookmarked not the main site :p
     
  28. Kojak

    Kojak Lore Master
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    I hate to say it but I almost never use stratics to find out stuff about UO - it's super super super hard to find the right page - it feels like you're trying to navigate the mines of Moria to get to the information - the categories they put stuff in are all jacked, the minimizing of all the categories - the 6 different search boxes and that none of them seem to work right - stratics has good info but it's impossible to find unless you have a direct link - i usually just say f it and go to uoguide and search box it
     
  29. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Having used Stratics for the lord only knows how long I do not find it difficult to find stuff at all, and UOGuide seldom provides me the information I am looking for. Almost everything on UOGuide I already know, so I almost always have to resort to using Stratics. Not to say UOGuide is bad, just simply the information there I already know, or is inadequate enough for what I am needing, I guess I could update it myself but then whats the point? I do not even believe in two mediums, specially when one medium can be full of wrong information and no one would really ever know it.
     
  30. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Both mediums can be full of wrong information.
     
  31. It aint about hope. Its about playing the game. This isnt a shoot em up one deal game.

    Learning the game is part of the game. We lost that. We just want it now now now now.
     
  32. Someone should write a book and make some money.

    Geez they try a provide a service and everyone is an expert.

    Well experts go make something better.

    OR just go play the game and meet some people.

    Argh. This aint brain surgery.
     
  33. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    No, its a complex MMO, hence the need for easily accessible information.

    There's far too much to learn from scratch. The world has evolved and people don't have time to waste on unfun stupid things that are relics of an ancient era.
     
  34. Babble

    Babble Guest

    Nothing against learning, but the game is buggy and has arbitrary rules, that places to check what these rules are, are necessary.
     
  35. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

     
  36. I am affiliated with UOGuide, I am one of the Sysops, altho I'm not a PR person, just speaking from personal exp.

    It's simply there for anyone and everyone to edit. If something is incomplete or outdated, anyone can complete it or bring it up to date, all you have to do is create an account which is free and takes 12 seconds.

    Could someone post false information there? Yes, but there's also a regular group of people watching the changelog and rolling back spam or nonsense when it does happen(rarely).

    Some people have taken to use it for creating pages about their player towns, shard-specific EM event items or other fairly more specific info. The community of PaxLair on Chesapeake uploaded their entire player-written library collection of books there!

    Stratics has come a long way from a few years ago when it was rather outdated in many, many respects. I also love the essays and guides, esp some of the rp-style ones. I admired how much info was added quickly before and right after both SA and High Seas launch. As eloquently put earlier in this thread, we are all part of the body that is UO.

    One thing I like about UOGuide is some people are so nitpicky they will post every last thing about an item, skill or spell. One recent topic page is the one on the new grapevines that can come in MiB chests. Did you know only the middle ones can spawn grapes and only when not locked down, but they can't be used to create Grapes of Wrath? Very in-depth, but as with the original premise of this post, some other areas may be lacking. This is where you, the reader, come in.
     
  37. Korik Bloodguard

    Korik Bloodguard Lore Keeper
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    Hi Magdalene,

    First, I'd like to say that I like Stratics. I've used it for many, many years; contributed, trolled, made friends, used it to facilitate cross-shard trading, and for any number of other reasons.

    But, what I will say is that I never come to non-forum Stratics to answer my questions on content. Why? Because I've never felt it was accurate enough. I'm a powergamer, I play for fun, but part of my fun occurs on the level of mathematically eeking out as much potential as I can from templates, skills, fights... Stratics does not provide the kind of information I like on its website. USERS provide Stratics with the majority of meaning it has, and mainly on the forums.

    There's also the issue with the ease and rapidity of updating. For example, if I look on Stratics, read down the left hand side to skills, go to Ninjitsu, and look at the move Death strike, I get this information:

    This is false, and has been for some time, but nobody has gotten around to changing it. I recognize that we all have lives, and maybe this won't be updated quickly, but still, someone coming to look for that particular piece of information might make a template decision without knowing that the foundation for their decision is incorrect.

    The benefit of an open, wiki-type system is that those who are motivated to update data as the world changes, and to contribute to the community have a space in which they can do it without having to wade through bureaucracy, be employed, or otherwise have permission to make the change.

    This is where UOGuide comes in: It's a website which allows those who actually DO create content (users, not Stratics mods...) to build up and manipulate the body of interesting knowledge.

    Recently I wanted to know about an interesting Necklace: Lavalier, which has popped up from time to time. What is its history? Where did it come from? Can Stratics answer this for me? No it can't. Granted, neither can UOGuide, but perhaps if someone, after reading this thread, knows something about it, they can add a page to UOGuide.

    You say contribute to essays and guides, while I agree that's a great thing, and having this information in such a formal form is neat, but on the other hand things change so quickly as people learn to work with the myriad of skills, their utility, and how each fits into a template. Skill choice a very fluid and dynamic thing, and I don't really think that kind of information can be summed up in an easily readable essay form.

    Like I said, I really do like Stratics - the community which it facilitates is a good one, the fact that Devs participate here is great - I'm not rooting for another site in opposition to Stratics, I just want to see UOGuide flourish as what it is: a Wiki where people can use their own knowledge to build a dynamic repository of the incredible complexity and wonderfulness that is UO :)


    TLDR: I like Stratics, I don't want to replace it. What I want is for the aggregate of the knowledge represented on the forums to find a home, and UOGuide is a good place for that home to be :)
     
  38. How do you know what people have time for?
    How do you know what makes it fun?

    For you that may be true. For others... Im sure its anything about what you or I believe.

    You come into the game new. You talk to people. You learn. You fight stuff. You visit places. You grow your character and knowledge.

    It is a pretty simple game that can be won in a week or played again to win something else the next week. And the same the week after and after that.
     
  39. Merion

    Merion Lore Master
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    You make it sound like people are forced to use knowlegde bases like uoguide or stratics...
    No one has to use it, but if you want to look something up, it's nice to have a place where you can find the info.

    Also, this is totally besides the intention of this thread. The OP said that uoguide could use a few more people who contribute. I support that notion.
     
  40. Korik Bloodguard

    Korik Bloodguard Lore Keeper
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    Also to Petra and other UOS Staff...

    I'm not calling on people to contribute UOGuide in opposition of your wonderful contributions to the UO community. Stratics has been a kind of beacon or lightouse on an otherwise rough sea. I'm sure the community provided by you guys has kept UO alive longer than it otherwise would have.

    :heart:
     
  41. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Korik, you have quoted the same inaccurate ninjitsu information from both Stratics and UOGuide.
    Stratics was neglected for a long time. I've done my utmost to find all the out of date information and correct it, but if I don't know it's wrong, I can't do that.
    If someone will please tell me what that should say I'll happily change it STAT.
     
  42. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Stratics is also the perfect place for that home. Try not to contradict yourself. I do not care which one is used, as I said both can work although UOGuide does not provide anything stratics does not, in fact often times not having what I require (most recently I forgot the name of one of the mini-champ spawns and while UOGuide might have a list of them, it did not help me as I only knew where it was located.) I hardly ever need to use either site for actual gaining of information, but when I need to make sure what I tell someone is with out a doubt the truth, I check both Often times not finding the proof I require on UOGuide, but on Stratics.

    Sure you might be promoting for my ease of finding this information on UOGuide by asking people to edit things there, but the information could be found already, or if something does happen to be wrong on Stratics (which Petra has spent a lot of time to fix so much as I have noticed) it can be fixed just the same as it can be on UOGuide, only difference is normally someone is able to actually check that information before it gets posted not after, or never in some cases.

    "Leaps and Bounds is how real change comes about."
     
  43. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I try to E-Mail Stratics if I ever catch something. I can vouch for Petra. Last time I brought up an issue she fixed it the next morning.

    Anyway, most of you guys know how I feel, personally, about UO Guide ... and how they "gather" information without crediting the original source. But whatever site you use for information, asking questions -- or supplying answers -- is something you just got to do. No fan site is going to be perfect as they are derivatives.
     
  44. Nok

    Nok Lore Master
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    *facepalm*
     
  45. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    This is not about Stratics content. Stratics content is GREAT, if you are able to find it. The few people who filled it have achieved something fantastic. There's no doubt about that.

    The point however is that it sometimes is difficult to find stuff on Stratics. And that the quality of content depends on a handful of people. The modern way to make such guides is a Wiki, because it is easy, because it is very structured, because you can find things easily, and because it has an out-of-the-box editing system where everybody can contribute.

    Since the UO knowledge is so vast, the only way to make a comprehensible guide is to let everybody contribute by direct editing. All you need is a few editors with the right to approve new entries.

    I'm not saying that people should use UOGuide instead of Stratics, but maybe if Stratics would put their information into a Wiki it would be easier for both people who edit and peopel who look for information.

    And yes, I think it should be allowed to discuss this here.
     
  46. Nimuaq

    Nimuaq Lore Master
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    UOGuide has at most three regular contributors who add new or latest information to the site. There are a lot of pages that are directly copied from stratics or other places, it seems people think that is a good way to add already available information with the least possible effort. There are, again, a lot of incorrect or outdated information which might lead a new player to wrong directions. I also have never had any difficulty finding an information I need on stratics.

    I'm sure this is what Petra wants too. This is what I want too. However, I havent seen a single player trying to figure out the new changes on High Seas Beta shard except stratics content editors and, ofcourse, Petra.

    Do you search for incorrect information? Do you search for new information, drop chances, loot descriptions, monster statistics? Emailing when you catch something is the very least you can do. You can prepare a good page about a game mechanics, with screenshots etc. and put it to the forum. I'm sure Petra will love it.

    I know stratics content editors playing hours, trying not to fall asleep next to the screen, just for a single word on the fishing in the high seas page: "Fishing Location: Destard". There are no more than ten people amongst all UO players that regularly add fresh content to Stratics, UOGuide etc., just as an effort to share something for the community. These people work more than the developers. I dont want these valuable people working just for the community to get upset over a search system that can be fixed quite easily.

    So yes, share some information with the community, add it to stratics, uoguide etc. I'm sure more ways to locate the information you need will be implemented by stratics soon. However, dont say "let's add info to there!". Petra knows this is not going to happen, I know this is not going to happen. The chance for a non-content editor of stratics preparing a brand new page for a single game system is the same as the chance of an uoguide member preparing a brand new page for a single game mechanics, close to the chance to get a 110 fishing ps (not on uoguide, search stratics to calculate the chance).
     
  47. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    If you have something to say, speak your mind man :p. As a writer, it bothers me when anyone copies artifice without giving credit.
     
  48. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    The least I can do, huh? My name is pretty much all over Stratics, just check around. Contributed to the Mage FAQ, ML fishing content graphics, greater dragon mapping, etc., etc. ... the last three Betas and the last PvP Focus Group ... I'm a contributing dinosaur, at this point. All I'm saying is Petra checks her E-Mail often and fixes things on the spot. She is my love.

    Anyway, I know UO Guide doesn't pay, but if Stratics pays, yeah, I'd be an editor. But anyone outside my alliance would have to pay for the strategy I write! :mf_prop:
     
  49. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    I'm another of these people who struggle to find things on Stratics sometimes.
     
  50. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

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    Please try to use this box, found at the top of the left hand menu, when searching. I think you'll find it quite efficient:

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