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A Publish with only fixes?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Xalan Dementia, Dec 15, 2008.

  1. Xalan Dementia

    Xalan Dementia Slightly Crazed
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    lets see how people, who normally complain about nothing being fixed in publishes, act if we had a publish with just fixes/balances. I see so many people whining when something new is introduced, saying they want something fixed instead, then see the same people whine when a publish with new stuff is delayed. I say Vote Fixes for Pub58!
     
  2. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    I had to go through all the publish notes a while back, looking for when certain ideas/items were introduced into the game.

    Of the 56 major publishes, and about 30-40 incremental publishes with notes (there were also a number of them that were not detailed in notes), there are about a couple dozen (mostly incrementals) that were event only.

    Two major publishes (not detailed in the notes, conspicuous by their absence) were the ML content publishes. There were similar publishes for the introduction of Tokuno, Malas, Ilshenar, the Tram/fel split, and T2A, if you go looking, so figure about a dozen publishes for these.

    About another dozen were ones that incorporated new systems into the game (champ spawns, Smith BODs, Tailor BODs, Paragons/minor artifacts, Personal attendents, etc.)

    So, you're looking at about 50-60 publishes (most of the incremental publishes, and about 1/3 to 1/2 of the standard ones) being content driven.

    The remaining half of the publishes were 80-100% bug fixes/balances in their content. These ranged from incremental publishes to fix a specific exploit or set of exploits, to full publishes where 1 or 2 new things were introduced, but the remaining 1-3 pages (if you printed the list of changes) were all fixes and balances - and some of them had undocumented fixes that were usually (but not always) edited into the change list after the fact (these exploit fix changes being held back from the list, then announced later, to keep people from attempting mass uses of them before they went away).

    The idea that nothing ever gets fixed is a fallacy - it's more accurate to say that many fixes are done in most publishes, but many complainers don't care, because their "pet peeve" bug/balance issue wasn't fixed (and in a number of those instances, the nature of the bug/imbalance is a perception issue, and the game is operating as intended, but that's an entire other issue).

    Examples: It took 3-4 years for someone to figure out that someone left a ")" out of a line in the Smith BOD code, that caused certain BODs to drop too often, and others not at all. There are other issues going on with Tailor BODs, that are still under investigation (see the numbers that I've been putting together in the sticky in the UO Craftsman forum). Then there's the perceived imbalance (that really does need addressed) that 1 out of every 25 tailor BODs dropped is a small for a Barbed kit, when the equivalent Smith BODs (for Verite/valorite hammers) drop about 1 out of every 1000.

    A lot of the situation is more perception, than anything - and every profession has its blinders that focuses on too tight an area for "change" to note the massive changes going on in other areas outside their focus.

    After all, I'm sure the only people in the PvP arena that noticed how massive were the crafting/runic changes in February, were the ones that crafted their own weapons (or to sell to other PvPers) with an alt.

    Similarly, the nature of the coming champ spawn changes have different levels of meaning to crafters, PvPers, legitimate merchants and dupers.

    You can't please all the people all the time...
     
  3. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Thanks for doing all that research, Basara.

    This info should be summarised and stickied somewhere for the education of the general posting public. It's an eye-opener.
     
  4. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Maybe if I actually went back and counted all the stuff exactly, as what I said above was more of an estimate. Hmm... Not doing anything else tonight...
     
  5. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    It's a little odd to see one of these "fixes only" posts that doesn't include an example of something that the poster needs to be fixed.

    Trouble is that we have at least as many different priorities as we have players - and "balance" is a moving target. Unless everything is reduced to a game of rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock, there's no hope of satisfying people that its fair. We can't even all agree on what's a bug or not sometimes.
     
  6. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    BTW, first bit of looking hard at the publish notes:

    This part deals with ones that appear before Publish 15, at least by the date of posting on UO.com
    • Prior to Publish 15, Publishes weren't Publicly given numbers.
    • A lot of the publish notes for 1999 were added retroactively. Others might be mis-dated, getting some things out of order.
    • There appeared to be about 100-115 "publish"/Server change entries (often groups with the same or nearly the same dates). This is after ignoring the client patch entries.
    • It was never actually said when most of these even HIT the live servers. Some of the bigger changes were saying that they were "going to Test Center" but no note ever of when they actually went live, though they obviously did.
    • There were a number of pre-Publish-15 Publishes that were obvious modern-style big publishes. The ones for T2A, Renaissance, Khaldun & Ilshenar, are the best examples (wonder what numbers they would actually count as?), as well as a few large collections of fixes/new systems (the introduction of Factions, for example). Some things that would have counted as a single mega-publish now, had 10 different entries, made over a day or two, some of them less than a paragraph long. Then, there were all the housing changes (and this was before the customs!).
    • Assuming that there were truly 14 large publishes before Publish 15, then there would have been probably 50-70 incremental bug-fix/exploit-stopping/holiday mini-publishes in that time period (even the holiday ones seemed to always have 3-5 bug or exploit fixes stuck in them).
    I'll look more into the "modern" publishes later.
     
  7. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    There are 2 dozen fixes in Publish 57. Why is there a complaint that nothing gets fixed?
     

  8. The problem is that they spend a lot of time fixing things they JUST broke. In other words, they publish, break something, and then subsequently fix it. Because they are always breaking things and then trying to fix the things they just broke they:

    1. Never get the opportunity to fix the longstanding issues that people constantly complain about

    2. Continue to introduce new bugs that join the longstanding list because they simply can't or don't fix them all

    Every publish breaks the game a little more and eventually people get tired of waiting for significant fixes. You can see that pretty clearly now.
     
  9. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    There appears to be quite a few things being fixed which have been around for a while.
     
  10. All those issues except for the Buc's Den issue are things that have been broken since AoS. In other words, they are issues which were broken by the dev team but never fixed and joined the "longstanding" list.

    Additionally, I wouldn't call any of them significant.
     
  11. Kellgory

    Kellgory Certifiable
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    No one cares about a fix unless it effects your play style. Otherwise its just another patch. I guess if you really stopped and looked at all the small fixes they have done just this year, it probably is a lot more than what most of us would have guessed.
     
  12. The fixes are just that, small. Virtually every one is for a self inflicted wound.

    What are the big things that people complain about and quit because of?

    Speedhacking. No progress at all there but hey, no more errors when you put a seed in dirt that already has a seed in it.

    Scripting. No progress there. Who cares! Rocks in the Orc dungeon are heavy now!!

    Lack of customer support. That gets worse and worse every day but Saliva is now readily available!!

    Get the picture?
     
  13. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    *boos*...la
     
  14. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Could you list some then?
     
  15. *Points up two posts.*
     
  16. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    You listed scripting, speedhacking and customer service.

    Scripting is not preventable by any means. World of Warcraft has the toughest measures against scripting and it is still rampant in that game. The developers did try to do something, it was called Punkbuster. A lot of people here were against it claiming it violated privacy. This is also not a longstanding bug.

    Speedhacking has been dealt with several times. The developers put in controls and even rewrote the movement code so that the server limits how fast you can run. If anyone was around 8 years ago when people could move 10x faster than you can now, that was speedhacking. Being able to move 1 tile extra some of the time is hardly a game-breaker. I've been accused of speedhacking simply because I am able to keep up with people who do so. And I am pretty sure I'm not doing anything on purpose unless someone snuck into my house and installed the program on my computer without me knowing (this is a joke). In addition, Kingdom Reborn appears to let you move a little faster than the 2D client. Speedhacking, for all intents and purposes, is "fixed" as best it can be. Without a program such as Punkbuster, they can't go any future. Also this is not a longstanding bug.

    Finally there is customer service, which has nothing to do with the development team. So I ask once again, please list some long standing bugs. I myself can't think of any at this moment.
     
  17. I know you are still on the bandwagon despite the desolation surrounding you, I get that. I'm not going to get you to see the truth. I'm not even going to try.

    I will however address some of your statements.

    Scripting is not preventable by any means?

    If you publish every day, you break the scripting program as it is currently written. If you hire actual gm's you can stake out scripters and ban them. You can ban them, you can drop their houses, you can empty their bank boxes, you can IP ban them, you can ban them from using the same credit card, you can do lots of things.

    You may not be able to completely eliminate scripting, but you certainly CAN prevent a lot of it.

    They have tried to fix speedhacking. You are correct on that. The best fix would be to have gm's watch speedhackers hack, then ban them, drop their houses, empty their bankboxes, etc...

    Customer service has nothing to do with the development team??????

    You mean when some idiot in game tells me to go #$%@ myself there is no way to prevent that text from appearing in game? There is no way to automatically alert a gm? There is no way to simply move that player to jail?

    At one time, if someone was acting inappropriately in game, through language or actions, you could page a gm and that person would be removed from the game. Now, there aren't any gm's and the necessary replacement of some gm services through coding has never been done.

    These are all longstanding issues. They haven't been fixed because they are hard to fix. Instead, we get buggy publishes and "fixes" for poorly designed and tested changes. Then people toot about all the fixes and ignore the fact that they are mostly cheering to an empty gym.

    By all means carry on. I'm just not sure why you bother.
     
  18. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Publish every day? Are you crazy? That would take an enormous about of development resources. You would have to patch your client every day. Do you see how many people complain about patching issues? It could be done, but it is not viable by any means.
    This is Mythic's decision on how many Gamemasters to hire, not the development teams. And it certainly has nothing to do with bug fixing, which was the focus of this topic.

    The type of Speedhacking that currently goes on can not be seen. People have paged GMs and speedhacked right in front of them, they can't see it. To them it looks like normal player movement. That just shows how small of an advantage it is. If someone is pinging 10-20 and you are having a bad day of 50+, they can outrun you. That is just how it works.

    Actually there is. The profanity filter. Something that has been in the game since at least The Second Age.

    Yes, but they are not bugs. This topic is supposed to be about long standing bugs.
     
  19. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    If you publish every day, I'm sure the scripters will rewrite their code.

    They do these things already happen don't they? They've even re-engineered how account creation and home placement works to throw a spanner in the works.

    I personally don't encounter anywhere near as many suspicious characters as I did a year ago. However, I don't know if they have been removed or if the resource changes have made it a case of "out of sight, out of mind".
     

  20. How big does a publish have to be to change the game version?

    That is all it takes to break the scripting program.

    I can see Speedhackers. I have been able to see them for a long time. I don't know if you can see them. I know I can.

    I know there is a profanity filter. If you can't recognize a speed hacker, I'm not surprised that you would think it is helpful.

    Look, I'm not interested in blocking my viewing of speech from players. I'm interested in banning players who use certain language in game. The speech filter doesn't do that. Neither do gm's anymore.

    This thread is about "fixes". The OP doesn't mention "bugs". Therefore, I'll continue to point out longstanding issues that haven't been fixed. I'll also point out the nature of the "fixes" being offered is to fix errors in coding and testing. It isn't to solve longstanding issues.

    Here is the bottom line. This game is just about dead. We know they've talked about cancelling it. We just got the kiss of death when we were re-assured they aren't cancelling it. Shards (except Atlantic for the moment) are deserted. Get out now while the getting is good.

    Otherwise, look for an e-mail soon that you are welcome to 15 days free in WAR.

    Edit: You are obviously a smart guy. You work hard on mods and sites devoted to UO. I get that you are invested. So was I, for a long time.

    There is writing on the wall though. Read it.
     
  21. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    The writing on the wall is UO's future looks brighter than it has ever been. Some people are just so beaten up over supporting the game when it didn't deserve it (Kingdom Reborn), that now with things looking up it is just a hard concept to grasp.
     
  22. So you believe that UO's future looks better now than it did with 200,000 subscribers and climbing?

    You are entitled to your beliefs, and it is a fantasy game after all...
     
  23. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    I think it looks better than it ever was since 2000. Cant compare uo to the time whith 200k subscribers as during that time UO barely had any comp and was cheaper and graphics up to date for that time. (No taxes either)
     
  24. Xalan Dementia

    Xalan Dementia Slightly Crazed
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    hehe sparked alil conversation i guess. i actually have no gripes with bugs right now. there are none that really affect my playstyle. I just see posts every publish with gripes about something not gettin fixed. just bitter i guess. you all make good points tho, even when a griper's concern is fixed, they just move on the next thing they want, no appreciation. the devs are dealing with an 11 year old house of cards, its not easy to remove a structurally crucial card repair it and put it back.
     
  25. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I clearly remember a long time ago, that there were patches to patch the patch which patched the original patch :) So in essense that's 2 patches that fixed stuff, and 1 for content...

    There were also many reverts and the statement "Never play on patch day".

    It's much better now, I say.
     
  26. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Both JC and Moonglow are right in this case. The 2 exploits mentioned cannot be fixed simply by patches. For scripting bots, someone will just invent a better bot everytime a publish breaks the bot.

    As far as I know, it's like what JC said, the devs did put in anti speedhack codes. There's a hard-coded limit on how fast you can move. The thing is, if pushed to the max, it will still allow someone to move as quickly as if they were playing directly on the server (akin to 0 ping). However, they can always add in codes to automatically flag players that are constantly moving beyond reasonable speed thresholds. If they have not done so already...

    That takes us to in-game GMs. Having GMs that can respond to these situations is the best way to police these exploiters. Catch 22 corporate situation:

    1) Less subs = less money to hire GMs. Less GMs = players unable to get support will leave. Less players = less subs.

    2) Getting a job done right in the first place should eliminate most situations that requires support. ie, if the devs come up with solid codes, there shouldn't be a need for that many GMs.

    An analogy - If the server admins manage the servers properly, the servers should not break down that often and thus less desktop support people are required. This mentality is slightly flawed, since you will still have other externally introduced problems (eg applications, virus, hackers etc) no matter how good the servers are maintained. But it doesn't stop the management from thinking this way when they are instructed to cut costs.
     
  27. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Great post! To add on, most exploits are fixed very quickly, esp the big ones. People tend to forget about exploits that have been fixed, I am not accusing another here, just pointing out that this is a normal human behaviour. It's like real life when we remember clearly when someone makes a mistake, but tend to forget the good deeds that they have done or just take them for granted.