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A real fix for hiding/stealth

Discussion in 'UO Siege Perilous' started by Draxous, Dec 23, 2008.

  1. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    So I've read the notion of passive detect... honestly, I don't believe that's the solution either, but I don't deny that it WOULD help the problem we have (and create others)

    The real problem is being able to stealth instantly after hiding.

    It makes it way to easy to escape a fight... even if you started it. There was a reason they made it so you could not recall/flee/run into a house in the heat of battle as an aggressor... and this is abusing the same principle.

    If players had to wait the skill timer between when they hide and when they begin to stealth... it will give us the opportunity to reveal the other person if we know where they are/reveal them.

    GE pots, Conflags, Detect hidden, EQ, Meteor Swarm, Chain lightning, Poison Strike, fields, wildfire, so on and so forth would be useful in preventing stealthers from abusing this.


    This will not negatively impact people who don't abuse hide/stealth for PvP purposes. You will still be able to stealth around sneaky and un-noticed (unless an adept tracker catches you... which is kind of the point of that skill.)

    So what do you think?
     
  2. Ru TnT

    Ru TnT Seasoned Veteran
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    with so many options available for dealing with stealthers, why keep asking for more? using the tools we already have makes more sense than coming here asking for nerfs...
     
  3. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    You admit adept trackers/detectors can find stealthers.. but you want to nerf hiding anyway? If a stealther is adept enough to avoid instantly being targeted and killed, a tracker should be adept enough to find them. No nerf required.. learn your skills.

    I've been killed plenty of times by adept trackers. They know what to do, and as mad as I was I knew they had the right talent. You just want to make it easier for the un-talented.
     
  4. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    Because those tools are almost completely useless as is.

    If they were working adequately, why would so many people be utilizing hiding/stealth and why would so many people be pancakes about hide/stealthers?

    I'm asking for the ability to use those tools... currently, the second an opponent hides... those tools become useless because the stealther is long gone...

    your not daft, please don't play devils advocate just for the sake of it.

    k tks.
     
  5. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    Siege is a Fel shard.. if you are not into PvP you nearly require hide/stealth. If you are into PvP and fit those skills into your template, that means you are deficit 175 points in actual PvP skills. The non-hider PvPers have an automatic advantage in skill points.
     
  6. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    I want to nerf hiding?

    Please don't twist this into your perverted version of reality.

    I would love to know how I'm making it easier for the un-talented. If anything, I'm making it more challenging for the untalented... because it sure doesn't take talent to hit a smoke bomb macro and start walking away the second someone starts kicking your ass.

    Try again.
     
  7. Ru TnT

    Ru TnT Seasoned Veteran
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    my guess? hmm, probably because some people can't/won't man up and use some skill points from thier templates to get track/detect. or they just refuse to learn how to deal with a stealther. much easier to come ***** and moan about it. you guys may want to get in touch with milk chan/haha, i'm sure they could offer some helpful advice...
     
  8. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    So how does this affect non-PvPers?

    This doesn't stop you from stealthing about your business un-noticed... that is unless there is someone who's invested skill points into tracking.

    Please don't make up arguments that have no merit.

    Like I said... they made it so you couldn't recall/flee from a fight if you were an aggressor. You should not be able to hide and INSTANTLY stealth away (using 2 skills with no delay between them) because people are exploiting this to essentially do the same thing.

    If you do not PvP... just continue to stealth along merrily and mind your own business. If someone is THAT adept... they will find you and earn the pleasure of attempting to kill you.

    Nice try tho... you can't spin this since I'm not asking for passive detect, so sorry.
     
  9. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    You mean the 100 skill points I've invested into detect hidden? Just so when I click detect on you... you just hide and INSTANTLY stealth away while I'm sitting there with the message "you must wait a few moments before using another skill"

    Well... why the hell don't YOU have to wait a few moments before using another skill?


    Well?
     
  10. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    But you want the victims who get detected to be helpless? You need to think of the people who are not into PvP. You may have enough honor to not attack any random target that gets detected/revealed.. but many others don't.
     
  11. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    I should apologize for not wanting to say stealth 3x in a row. I'm sure you know what I meant but went off on a tangent anyway.
     
  12. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    But you want to actually make sense?

    I've thought of the people who are not into PvP. That's pretty much why you're coming up empty with an argument against this idea.

    Sorry, but no.
     
  13. Ru TnT

    Ru TnT Seasoned Veteran
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    as i said, ask for advice. crying nerf because you don't understand the game...lol, are you sure you're KoC?? as i said before, learn to use the tools available...
     
  14. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    Great comeback.. I'm not into board PvP so I won't comment any further unless you have something decent to add to the argument.
     
  15. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    Ditto.

    I've addressed your points. You can continue to do like Ru and add nothing to the discussion or walk yourself out of it.

    There is no reason why you should be able to instantly stealth after hiding. It's exploiting the game mechanics for your own person gain and it's such a great exploit that the vast majority of this shard is utilizing it.

    Thanks. Bye.
     
  16. Ru TnT

    Ru TnT Seasoned Veteran
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    why add anything? i just find it amusing that 2 of the best stealthhunters(in my opinion, feyre & haha) are from koc/otf, and now that they're not around you guys have to cry nerf.
     
  17. Bo Bo

    Bo Bo Lore Keeper
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    Bo is a stealth killing machine. Bo knows if you play a stealth template and don't know or realize it is over powered than you suck at it. Killling any smart ninja is very difficult. Why does Bo say this??? Becuase the second the ninja gets into trouble, the ninja just smoke bombs, forms and moves away. If you think earthquake is the answer for a mage you are wrong, Bo can stealth away faster than it can get hit Bo.
    Ru you attacked Bo the other night with about 7 others, you had Bo tracked and revealed Bo twice. What happened Bo just moved around hide again and went about killing some of your mates.
    Sweeney to think someone is helpless when they get revealed maybe you are, but Bo sure as **** isnt. Bo's answer to would be to run, instead of standing there and dieing like a dip**** why not run. You also talk about 175 skill point deficit, that is a joke Bo takes that 220 skill points and turns into a weapon, it isnt difficult to figure these things out.
    The only people I hear complainin are those that cant pvp or even live without hide and stealth. Lets face it siege is the hard shard you shouldnt be able to move around so easily without any threat of dieing.
     
  18. burdensrise

    burdensrise Seasoned Veteran
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    I have to agree with everyone esle on this. Your imput and ideas are great however. There are already so many ways to counter stealth I'm not talking about just a handful a lot more than that when used by someone who uses there abilities properly. With so many ways around stealth as is why are we asking for more. A nerf to stealther templates would require a large nerf to many other templates including mages to keep things balanced. How would you feel if they made defense chance increase not effective to mages or parry.

    If you ask me we should point our fingers towards an even better idea. Half damage in pvp on pets or a damage cap of 20.
     
  19. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    There really isn't...

    The methods are really fubar with the ability to stealth instantly after hiding.

    And they only semi-work assuming you know where the stealther is... because you're trying to hit a moving target.

    It's a problem and if it wasn't... then why are so many people running stealth and hiding?

    Nobody here's stupid... we can cut the charades.
     
  20. And let Bo understand that the only complaining there is are from those who are on Bo's side.
     
  21. Bo Bo

    Bo Bo Lore Keeper
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    Woah there Benny, Bo is implying people like you are the ones that are crying about stealth not needing to be fixed. It is broken and overpowered, if you cant see that than you are blind. Hope that clears up what Bo was trying to say.
     
  22. N49ATV

    N49ATV Slightly Crazed
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    I agree with each side somewhat on this one. As I have only spent a day on a stealther, i know its good. Yes I can hide and stealth right away, but if you reveal me quickly, i dont think i can instantly hide. However if I hid 10s ago, then im good to go. And I know it can be done, I was revealed a ton of time today, and Im not the best stealther by a long shot, however, I was moving, and changing direction, and still getting revealed with detect hidden, while another was tracking me. I did manage to lose them a few times. But when I re-entered the area, I was found again. TnT did a good job on that today. So I think its pretty fair as far as the reveal and track etc. It does suck, getting ganked from behind, by a few stealthers, as you stand no chance, if they hit you together. However. Whats that any different from? If 2 mages cast on you at the same time, your in just as bad of shape. So although its over powered, its still not that over powered to the point that it needs nerfing.
    *edit*

    If anything, they could tweak the tracking skill, to give it some form of actual tracking, not just the arrow in that direction. But that could make that too powerful. Tough to say
     
  23. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    Helpless? No.

    But making these people survive out the timer of hiding would be nice.
     
  24. Arch Magus

    Arch Magus Guest

    Damn, Siegers cry more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more, and more etc....





















    Every Day.




    It's like a river of tears.
    I'm drowning in it for fuks sake.
    *gasps for air*
    Halp mehhhh!!!!1
     
  25. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    Yes stealth is powerful, no its not overpowered.

    People jus dont seem to be using the right mechanics (poison fields, conflag pots, strangle.)these can all be used to help stop a stealther re-hiding due to the long term effects. Yes they can be stopped but only if they stealther reveals, also poison strike is very affective at revealing and is a very quick spell to cast.

    all you need to do with these is know were the stealther is...so lose 100points in your temp and get tracking!

    Edit: damn just told you all how to easily catch my thief!
     
  26. Hera - Siege

    Hera - Siege Lore Master
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    I think very few remember the times when you had to use the stealth skill and had the delay to stealth after you hid.

    That being said, I really don't think that reimplementing the delay is the answer.

    1. Make it so you can't hide/smoke bomb if you're an aggressor **NOT** CRIM. [possibly on same timer as the house deal] This affects PVP Combat and not thieves, which should make everyone happy.

    2. Put Smoke Bombs on the same timer as hiding. So you just can't continually hide even if revealed.

    3. Drop the timer on Detect from 6(?) to 4. [I think 2 would be a bit much]
     
  27. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    Smoke Bombs are on a timer...once for example you make a steal you have to wait the normal skill time untill you can smoke bomb.

    The only issue i see with the no agro hiding is that a mage will be able to run of and ivis to break target yet a stealther wont.
     
  28. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Why should it be nearly required? To make your own mini Trammel on Siege?
    None of my crafters do have hiding/stealth, if they die, it's no big lose.
    For a PvM or PvP char, it's their choice to put skills in defense or be able to kill.

    Maybe get rid of smoke bombs so you again need to get around a corner to hide if flaget.
    Also do we really need to be able to run when using stealth, maybe make it so you have to wait a 10 sec before you can run after starting to stealth.

    If not into PvP or accepting the risk for it, they should not be on Siege. It's not like you can't find a PK free place on Siege to hunt.
    Not only innocent are using stealth, it's far more annoying when attacked of someone who will hide as soon you try to defend yourself.

    I would like to see players again instead of getting a message when I run into them.
     
  29. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    poison fields (take time to cast... by that point, I'm stealthing away... which direction? no one knows but me.)

    conflag pots (if I miss... or just used it... I can't use it again because it has a timer.)

    pots (greater explosion won't go off for 3 seconds... by that time I've stealthed off to safety.)

    Earthquake (take time to cast... stealther is long gone.)

    meteor swarm, chain lightning (take time to cast... stealther is long gone.)

    strangle (stealther eats an enchanted apple right before hiding... yay)

    poison strike (takes time to cast, by that point... stealther is long gone.)

    detect hidden skill (I detect stealther and they instantly hide, stealth off while I'm waiting to use the skill again.)



    Let me know when you all start to see a pattern here for how effective the methods of detecting a stealther are. [/sarcasm


    It's over powered.


    I think someone wrote something about not using smoke bombs as an aggressor... well isn't that kind of the point of them though? I think the thing is... is that people need to come prepared to a fight. If your fighting a stealther and have no way of revealing them (say your a dexer with no pots, spells or skill) then the stealther deserves to get away because you came un-prepared.

    Now if your fighting a stealther and he tries to run away with his pants down the second the tables turn on them... you better believe we should have REASONABLE options available to us to prevent his/her from escaping SO EASILY. :scholar:

    That is all, thank you!
     
  30. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    If you want it easy to catch a stealther, go to Trammel. You have reasonable methods here to catch/kill a stealther, you simply don't know how, as you have illustrated above with that list of excuses. It is clear that you simply do not want to invest skill points in detect AND/or tracking. That, my friend, is your balance. Utilize it instead of complaining.

    That is all.
     
  31. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    So why is it that you post the same empty argument everyone else is? Is it because all of your characters have hiding/stealth? I know Kat does. So why does the vast majority of this shards population have hiding/stealth too?

    (Hint: because it's overpowered.)

    I suggest if you're looking to keep the safety those skills currently offer, to head to trammel. You can't hide behind empty arguments.

    I have both of those skills you mention and they are still inadequate in dealing with stealthers. Even if tracked it's still too easy for my opponent to get away. But, but If I'm alone, then why are so many people complaining? Oh... I guess I'm not alone.

    It's an issue that will be addressed because it needs to be.

    Have a nice day.
     
  32. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    I can't disagree with this. I do recall waiting that 8 second delay to be able to stealth back in the day. It was a lot tougher.

    This may be the way to correct the incesent whining about stealthers, even though it would deal a huge nerf to said stealthers...(then again, the PvPers always whine about the templates that either kill them, or they can't kill)...la
     
  33. Sunchicken

    Sunchicken Guest

    120 MAGERY 120 EVAL REVEAL LVL 6 SPELL 240 skill points
    100 HIDING 75 STEALTH 175 skill points

    Honestly do i need to go any further?

    If you think its not over powered your just plain blind to the fact because you MUST have it this way to survive.
     
  34. Turtle

    Turtle Guest

    Stealth and detect are not the problem. Smoke bombs are.
     
  35. Hera - Siege

    Hera - Siege Lore Master
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    After that timer is gone though, you can continually smoke bomb if revealed/etc, correct? IE: There's no timer on smoke bomb use, I can use one right now and use it again 1 second later. [As long as I haven't stolen anything].
     
  36. Mogluk

    Mogluk Guest

    BR I am going to have to disagree with you. I admit stealth is annoying but as a life long stealther and a former member of da shadowclan, once the game started to ramp up the damage dealing ability of tamers and mages orcs died in droves....do I think stealth should be nerfed, yes, but only in the context of a few key areas.

    1. while stealthed you should be unable to command a pet and a pet should not be able to follow you (meaning it stands still until it sees you)
    2. no skill or ability should be able to be toggled while in stealth mode, any use of an skill/ability (like dismount) the only ones who should be able to do that are ninjas ( which should make a difficulty check ( gets easier to as the higher the ninja)

    so in the end I dont't think stealth by itself is overpowered, but some of the combinations we see (tamer, dismount archer) definitely make it OTT.

    because in all honesty which two templates annoy every one, those two....
     
  37. Ru TnT

    Ru TnT Seasoned Veteran
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    maybe try using more than those two skills?

    finally i agree with you! i hate when i'm chasing stealthers all over the shard and they realize how hopeless it is to hide from me. they just run and run, lets nerf running away too...
     
  38. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    I give the same argument because it is truth. Furthermore, only 2 of my 5 characters have stealth. Shows how much you actually "know". Again, my suggestion to you is Trammel or continue to hide in your house, just as you do everytime I show up with a character that can track and detect.


    Those of us in TnT who run track/detect have no issues when dealing with stealthers. If you actually do have those skills as you say, learn to use them.

    In closing, since both hiding and smoke bombs have separate timers, I cannot agree that there should be any ADDITIONAL timer after using a smoke bomb. Considering the fact that someone with hide/stealth gives up a significant number of skill points that could otherwise be used for additional combat skills, the should have the ability to use those points to escape.
     
  39. Ru TnT

    Ru TnT Seasoned Veteran
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    you can? i don't think you can. could be wrong though, as i rarely use them.
     
  40. Turtle

    Turtle Guest

    You've been inadequate at everything in UO for a long time.
     
  41. Turtle

    Turtle Guest

    Theres a timer.
     
  42. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    I would have no problem if reveal was boosted, as long as it's not given the power it used to have. 1 square or maybe even a 2x2 square per spell...but the max should only be for mages with 120/120...la
     
  43. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    Kat,

    First... why the hell would I hide in a house from just you on a tracker/detector?

    Or even hide from just you... period?

    Try to make sense.

    Second, this has nothing to do with preventing you from escaping because you invested 175 points into a skill set. It has everything to do with making it not so easy a caveman can do it easy... so fights are fun and more balanced.

    Again try to make some sense.


    Finally, I don't see a problem if there is no timer from using a smoke bomb to when you can start stealthing (since it's an item and only finite in supply, as a compromise to those who think this idea is the end of the world as they know it) but if you use the skill... you should be waiting the 8 seconds it takes in order to use another skill before... you know, you start using another skill.

    So, in closing... try to make some sense when you argue a point, Kat.
     
  44. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    Pets can no longer be "commanded" while in stealth. That war mode bug has been fixed. I do, however agree wih you that stealth can be overpowered in combination with the templates you mentioned. I believe some of the tamer changes have addressed that, but I'm not certain it is currently sufficient.

    Requiring tactics for the use of bola's might be a step in the right direction, but again, there were some delay changes there too.
     
  45. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    Are you high? WTF would I be out there alone, on a stealther with track/detect, without any real means to kill you? Get a ****in clue already. I never said I was out there alone. I am typically out there with my guildmates and even numbers or not, the minute your stealthers get revealed, most of you make a B line right back to the house.

    Deny it and I'll start grabbing and posting screenshots. :)

    Stop whining and crying already. Learn to utilize tracking and detect like the rest of us.
     
  46. Mogluk

    Mogluk Guest

    I am aware of the changes but up until a week or so ago I was still getting the war bug to work. Did they just re fix it?

    stealth/hide should be a means t move silently and set up an ambush,youshould not be able to use special abilities or dismounts or bolas while hidden at all....orcs did it the right way, we would KRIMP...den krump.....
     
  47. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    I don't think you're looking at the big picture. For one thing, the Orcs were poorly equipped... which is why they died. Not sure why stealthing needs to be overpowered to compensate for that fact? Maybe if the green orc masks orcs dropped had decent resists... for example, things would be better off for your stinky friends.


    I'll give you a template Big D was utilizing... ninja stealth tamer with max HPR, 50% Enhance Pots and in wolf form (+20HP)

    Add that with no timer to stealthing after hiding... and the second anyone would get him low enough, he'd just run around until he smoke bombed then bring the dragon back. There are posts from TnT complaining that it would take 8-10 of them to fight him... that's balanced?

    I'll give you the second template... Righty, Mr. X, Carbon Copy and so forth use... Bok stealth ninja.

    Run out... nerve strike, death strike, whack whack... and the second you take any damage... chug a GH pot, smoke bomb and stealth off... you never die 1 on 1... unless you're not very good at playing this temp.

    Soooo many people are abusing templates like these because hiding and stealth is over powered.

    You agree there needs to be a nerf... but how and why you've come to the conclusion that by making it impossible to do anything while stealthing is a complete mystery to me (since it's the whole point of a ninja template imo.. your an assassin, the whole point is to stealthily sneak up to your opponent and kill them with surprise... is it not?)

    I dunno... pick your poison. My method does nothing to nerf these templates... all it does is make it more equal for opposing templates to fight against these templates... not nerf them into oblivion, which is what you've suggested.
     
  48. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    Bingo!

    but how is this going to help you set up an ambush?

    Hide/stealth should mean you can move about silently to go about your business un-noticed or as a tool to set up ambush's.

    What I'm saying is that it is not a "get out of jail free card" when it comes to escaping a PvP fight.

    I see no problem with the offensive capabilities these templates offer, the whole problem is that its WAY too easy for stealthers to escape danger. There was a reason things like "you cannot flee in the heat of battle" were put into this game... and this feature circumvents that completely.
     
  49. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Secret Society

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    ROFL. God forbid you leave the house without the protection of your guild...la
     
  50. Ru TnT

    Ru TnT Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran TnT/TnA

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    ROFL...oh wait, you're not talking about elmer...do you play siege rico?