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A solution to make Artifact Weapons useful

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Wizal the Fox, Aug 30, 2011.

  1. Wizal the Fox

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    Fact:
    As you know, no one is using any artifact weapon (Doom arties, SA arties, Tokuno arties, High Seas arties, Classic marties, ML marties, etc...)

    Analysis:
    The usual approach to the problem is that imbuing made all of those obsolete, and that the number and intensity properties in most artifacts is too low. I personnaly don't subscribe to this analysis and even believe that nerving imbuing wouldn't make people use the artifacts more, as most of them were not used before imbuing anyway.

    I think the real issue is that the most important property for a dexxer is HML (Hit Mana Leech), a property that is currently absent from nearly all artifact weapons.

    This is of course because dexxers need to replenish mana massively and nearly constantly due in PvM to have to chain specials, the need to Consecrete, and the very frequent mana drain against casting mobs. While there are many ways to replenish Life, and a few to replenish Stamina, both of which don't even drop as fast as mana, so HML is really what is needed (especially since any other easy way to replenish mana would create an imbalance by allowing casters to never run out)

    The few artifacts that actually do have HML are artifacts only by name, having no non-imbuable properties and even when they have a total intensity over 500 it's only because they have a nearly useless property such as UBWS (Mangler and the Semi-redundant Calm, Pacify and Subdue replicas) or a pointless extraordinary intensity (SSI60 way over the swing cap for Wind's Edge, HCI30 for Zyronic Claw while everyone is already at cap, etc...). Most of them are also very slow and/or lack the specials needed for PvM.
    The only exception is the Soul Seeker and it is no surprise here that, even beeing a minor arty without any DI (Damage Increase), this is the only artifact weapon that people actually use, thus proving my point.

    But there are in fact many other artifact weapons that could be useful if they didn't lack HML.

    Solution:
    We know that we need the ability to add HML (Hit Mana Leech) to a template, and while this could be done by adding to the game an armor piece with HML, basically the same way Mace&Shield Glasses have HLD (Hit Lower Defense), this is not my preferred solution because even if this would make a lot of artifact weapons usable, not only everyone would wear that same particular piece of armor (much like all sampires currently wear the M&S Glasses), but that wouldn't improve the actual artifact weapons compared to imbued ones.

    Instead, we could add a way to *infuse* non-imbued weapons, especially artifacts, with HML, at a fixed intensity (30%?) and regardless of the previous number of properties or their intensity. A possible tradeoff (if there has to be one?) would be that the process would decrease DI (Damage Increase) by 10%.

    Again it wouldn't work on Imbued items, but it WOULD work on artifact weapons, thus adding a new interest in them.
    It would also work on looted weapons (which are currently useless) and possibly on crafted ones.

    Applied to all artifacts, this would add to them a net 46 imbuing points (+66 from the added 30% HML minus 20 from the loss of 10% DI), pushing a lot of them closer or higher than the 500 imbuing limit, and adding to all of them a property that is basically impossible to do without in PvM.

    This would have a very low impact on PvP, and even in PvM most people would still prefer imbued weapons, but at least the artifact weapons would become somehow usable.

    Example:
    Say the process would be called *Blackrock Infusion*: I infuse an artifact with Blackrock and it adds +30% Mana Leech and removes -10% Damage Increase:

    Defiler of Virtue
    Fey Slayer
    Hit Lightning 50%
    Hit Lower Defense 30%
    Stamina Regeneration 2
    Faster Casting 1
    Swing Speed Increase 25%
    Damage Increase 60%


    would become:

    Defiler of Virtue
    [Blackrock Infused]
    Fey Slayer
    Hit Mana Leech 30%
    Hit Lightning 50%
    Hit Lower Defense 30%
    Stamina Regeneration 2
    Faster Casting 1
    Swing Speed Increase 25%
    Damage Increase 50%


    Nice Katana for the showroom eh? But of course useless without HML... now even with HML a lot of people would still prefer an imbued weapon with also Stamina and Life Leech, but at least this artifact would become usable and I think this solution is more elegant than all artifact weapons becoming turn ins for a permanent Clean Up Britannia.

    Some Comments:
    - The infused artifacts would remain full artifacts and PoFables, they wouldn't turn Brittle in the process. They would just have the tag [Blackrock Infused] added to distinguish them from their natural form.
    - The case of archery is special, as it is less mana consuming: Consecrete Weapon can be avoided with an appropriate quiver and slow weapons means less specials (most archery specials, including all Ninjitsu spells, are not very useful anyway, especially in PvM). So it remains to be seen if the process I described would be applied to bows or just melee weapons.

    Now I've yet to see an idea posted here actually beeing considered by the devs, but well...
     
  2. Guardian KX

    Guardian KX Lore Keeper

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    Lets take our Barneyland toys that can never be lost and make them even more unbelievable.:popcorn:
     
  3. Guardian KX

    Guardian KX Lore Keeper

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    Dont ya think asking for a mana leech hat or some other such item would be WAYYYYY easier that asking for impossiblites. Long Live Insurance In A Barneyland World!
     
  4. Wizal the Fox

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    They are so unbelievable that no one is using them.

    You obviously haven't read the entire text.

    This thread has nothing to do with Insurance, Trammel or even PvP.
     
  5. WildWobble

    WildWobble Sage
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    2 words for ya!


    WRAITH FORM mana problems solved.
     
  6. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Unless it doesn't have much mana like everything but slasher... or you want to be mounted.
     
  7. Wizal the Fox

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    ...and it requires both Necro and Spirit Speak
    ...and you can't be in Vampiric Form at the same time
    ...and unlike Vampiric form you can't stay in Wraith form unless you accept to never be able to move at mounted speed
    ...and if you keep switching you loose so much karma Chivalry spells become useless
    ...and... I hardly see what it has to do with making Artifact Weapons useful (the title of this thread) ;)

    The truth is if it were an acceptable solution, people would use weapons without HML. Yet can you see anyone using one?
     
  8. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    How about they unravel for what their weight is for a start.

    Bring imbuing back for artifacts. Once imbued they get Brittle status and 75 durability.

    There is a load of things players asked for they worry about the balance. Have a new status like Fragile. Fragile = 3% chance for breakage.
     
  9. Wizal the Fox

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    I actually doubt bringing imbuing back for artifacts would help much: lots, if not most, of them were not imbuable anyway because of weight/number of properties. People were actually imbuing arty jewelry (Djinni's Ring, etc), only very few arty weapons. Plus it could more easily create unforeseen balancing effects, while my proposal to just add HML would just help all arty weapons with far less unexpected results.

    As for unraveling, well, if the only use of artifacts is to unravel them it's pointless: that's just the same as removing all arty weapons from the game and replacing the drops with 1 or 2 relics.
     
  10. Shiznit Bo'Bourbon

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    Let arties be imbued. Let imbuers remove properties.
     
  11. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    WRONG That fact may be for you but it is not for all of UO.
    Fact: I have 4 old school warriors that still use these weps and if nobody uses them then why are they still being sold on vendors.

    UUMMMM HML nah. %100 LL and you can stay alive while you regen.

    Your FACT is wrong so the rest of your post is wrong because it is all based on a FALSE FACT.
     
  12. red sky

    red sky Sage
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    How about they bring back imbuing for all items (except blessed) and keep the hard cap of 450 and 500 in place? I really don't see what the huge deal was with taking it away in the first place? I mean if you could only imbue to these caps than it effectively wouldn't be better than anything player made to begin with. But yet, they mysteriously took it away one day without telling anyone why.

    To further remedy this influx of useless items, allow properties to be set to their minimum value regardless of how high the items weight is. This means you could take an artifact that has a weight of 600 and drop one of the properties to its minimum to allow something else to be raised but the cap would become 450 or 500 in the process. So you would basically be making the item less powerful but more customized.

    Someone please reiterate why these implementations are such a problem? :confused:

    P.S. This would also allow all of us to customize our characters appearances so we aren't all wearing the same imbued leather gloves, glasses and robes.
     
  13. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    30% hml... ohhhh pvm.. sampires...right!
     
  14. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
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    *stamps Veto'd*
     
  15. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Yeah... we need more mods on our characters. That will balance everything out.
     
  16. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Give me a Blackrock Infused item with "Hit Purge 50%" on it and I'll say yes to this.
     
  17. Xalan Dementia

    Xalan Dementia Slightly Crazed
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    They need to do something with the old doom arties and ML arties but the others are fine, especially SA arties, many of them are used frequently.

    Im not sayin they need to add ways to boost mods on these arties but some kind of use other than unraveling. Maybe make items with Artifact Rarity tags unravel for more resources? perhaps unraveling a rarity 11 would give a relic or two and some other resources? Maybe a collection box for unwanted arties that gives somethin useful
     
  18. Wizal the Fox

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    They are beeing sold on vendors because some people are collectors, the same way people collect deco. But seriously can you elaborate? Can you tell what arty weapon you use? The only one I've seen beeing used are the Soul Seeker for rat spawn, the Runed Driftwood Bow (nothing special but it's cheaper than imbuing one, and again Archery is a special case) and sometimes the Swords of Prosperity for caster Luck Suits (not for actual warriors of course).

    Which SA arty weapons are actually used???
     
  19. EricVT

    EricVT Adventurer
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    I still use the Zyronic Claw regularly.
     
  20. Wizal the Fox

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    Yeah, and that's one of the few arties with HML, thus proving my entire point :)
     
  21. Black Majick

    Black Majick Certifiable
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    I use this weapon daily on my sampire. So lets not say it is useless or no one uses it. It is a very nice weapon if you know how to play your template.
     
  22. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    The first thing you need to have artifacts over 500 intensity.

    The second thing, you can't let players imbue the properties because then they will add mods that will make it unbalanced and that would cause everyone to do the same and wear the same artifacts causing all other arties to become useless.

    Only solution is, they must all be random properties. This would cause people to keep trying for the one that they need.

    Allow the system to imbue the properties randomly. That would prevent people from imbuing an unbalanced mod and cause the pieces to be rarely used in battle, also causing some to become superior to others.

    If you just add mana or hit lower defense, you're not going to be able to compete with an imbued weapon.

    Artifacts are going to have to have an advantage and each is going to have to have a different advantage or everyone will use that same arty for that same purpose. That's my opinion.

    Anyone who thinks artifacts are good, they're not. I'm not saying there all bad but there's not enough reason for a need for someone to go to Doom to get them. There are a few pieces, like the orny. Mages need this but if you look at the Blaze Of Death, for example, it has no advantage. If it had intensity of almost 500, it might at least get you a Relic. If it had a Slayer property, it might be at least useable.

    What I would do is, compare an artifact or a minor arty to an imbued weapon. Then, I would adjust the properties and make sure that each had an advantage over the imbued weapon.

    Even if it's a mechanical thing, like adding fire wall spells or adding range or some type of earthquake or some type of absorbution, like if it's armour. It might absorb damage that is physically inflicted from a deamon.

    I think before you do anything like that, you're going to want to balance the other issues first.
     
  23. Xalan Dementia

    Xalan Dementia Slightly Crazed
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    storm caller is a standby weapon on my thrower, Deaths Head is commonly used on my macer sampire. Jade war axe was used often by my sampire macer before i turned that character into a gargoyle.
    LJ sampire uses the double axe SA artie.
    If Mana is your problem then you should break out of the cookie cutter templates/suits and try something new. Mana regen fish pies, Epiphany armor, Mana phasing orbs, etc. all make regaining mana a breeze.
    Theres plenty of options in game already, we dont need the devs breaking and unbalancing things even further just to suit your mana problems.
     
  24. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Here's a simpler solution... one-shot recipes.

    Recipes would only drop in the doom gauntlet, and only work on non-faction items. They would be for all the (armor/weapon) doom artifacts, all the 10th anniversary artifacts, all the minor (paragon) artifacts, and all the ML minor artifacts. Certain replicas would also be included as well.

    Each one-time Recipe would be item specific. Each item could only be enhanced once. And, the choices would be limited.

    For example....
    A scroll for Enhancing a Ring of the Elements
    Choose one of the following:
    A. Add 20% LRC
    B. Add 3 FCR
    C. Add 1 FC

    Each modification would require GM skill in the skill associated with the item, and GM in Imbuing. The ingredients would be some of the unused items in the game (horn of dreadhorn, Stygian Dragon Head), 10-30 of one of the unused essences or rarely used ML Ingredients (muculent, blight, etc.), as well as ALL the ingredients needed to normally imbue the property on an item.

    A scroll for an Arctic Death Dealer (minor arty) might have 60% SSI as one of the options (and require twice the ingredients of a 30% SSI imbue).
    A scroll for a Soul Seeker might be for imbuing a hit effect (spell or lower xxx), a hit area effect, or 50% DI.
    An Armor of Fortune's choices might all be resist bonuses.
    Particularly weak items might actually allow the addition of TWO properties as each choice (say, adding two leeches to a night's kiss, or the ADD mentioned above, or one of the Doom gauntlet dropped macing weapons)

    and so on.

    One option might be, for the ones with faction equivalents, would be to enhance the item to be the equivalent of the faction artifact.

    This would allow artifacts to be truly "artifact" quality again, while limiting their scope and getting a crafter involved.
     
  25. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I have no thoughts on the proposal.

    I am, however, increasingly annoyed with the tendency to take everything and somehow squeeze into the Fel/Tram thing.

    I guess I should have realized this reached a plateau back when someone used it during the introduction of UO:CART some time ago. People suggested additions and someone whined that people should stop "asking for all these Tram features."

    What, if anything, UO:C, or the original poster's proposal in this very thread, had to do with the Fel/Tram debate, is unclear to me.

    -Galen's player
     
  26. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    And here I was looking over the arti weapon lists thinking they left out HML on purpose to accommodate high end imbueing as well as letting newer players obtain these artis weps ~on the cheap~

    Nothing like buying your 1st blaze of death for 50k and feeling like youve just won UO.

    yea its basically useless but for someone who just made their 1st 50k fighing skeletons that weapon looks bada**ed and knocks out a skeletal knight much better the a plain gm smithed katana
     
  27. Galingree

    Galingree Journeyman
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    Excellent analysis and well balanced solution. The only reason we keep all these artifact weapons is to get some points in spring cleaning events. The only modification to your idea I would suggest is that the infusion could result in breaking the item.
     
  28. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I'd actually argue that the Blaze of Death is still of some use at the early levels of a Champ Spawn. My Samurai character used one in those circumstances for a long time.

    And if you need a halbred to RP a character in a certain way, how many other practical ones are there out there at all?

    -Galen's player
     
  29. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Oh yeah? Which ones might I inquire? Because as far as I can imagine there are very very few if ANY artifact weapons that one would even consider using over an imbued weapon tailored to you needs. What are you fighting? Blood elementals etc? Then I could see using some of the artifact weapons for novelty sake if nothing else.

    If you are fighting any high end content (which is the only thing worth while these days), especially if you are doing it solo, or tanking with a partner or what have you you must have the mana to use specials or you will not survive. LL, and VE are not enough when you are hitting for low damage because you didnt have the mana to chain consecrate weapon/feint/LS/AI/whirlwind and so forth.

    If you want to fight something high end you need a way to get lots of mana, and med/mr/wraithform are nowhere near as reliable as ML, and often times simply will not cut it. That is a fact.
     
  30. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Yeah no doubt you could use it for such a purpose. But I could on the other hand I could make a hally with imbuing that costs practically nothing and is as good or better.
     
  31. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Yes, but ingredient-wise, you'd spend 20-100 times more for a weapon only marginally better.
     
  32. Wizal the Fox

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    Well, while we can talk forever about the 3 or 4 arty weapons that can still be more or less a bit useful somehow, my proposal aims at finding a global solution for a larger number of them.

    And my point is still that HML is mostly unavoidable anyway and should be the norm, like Damage Increase is, not the exception, because all other ways to replenish mana are insufficient for a dexxer in PvM and boosting them would unbalance casters.
     
  33. Xalan Dementia

    Xalan Dementia Slightly Crazed
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    if you have mana problems then your usin the wrong template or wrong suit, simple as that. Theres plenty of ways to get mana back without HML, you just have to use your head and not some cookie cutter setup everyone else wants/uses.
    They could add ways to boost the arties while keeping them in check, not just giving you a free mod in a gem that you add to whatever you want. The recipe upgrade idea is pretty good if done right and balanced.
     
  34. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    SSi is the only thing that would cost you anything really. The rest is just gems and magical residue and enchanted essence which you can get from killing a dragon or two. I actually make similar blackstaffs for early parts of spawns for my sampire, and since im on siege they have to be throw aways, which they are. I make up a mess of black staffs with a runic saw if I can find one for the ssi sometimes.
     
  35. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    There's only like 5 ways to gain mana aside from regular regen. ML, wraith form, those mana burst armors, MR and the mana regen skills. I guess you can count lich form but really... I don't think its at all viable.

    Of those 4 ways wraith form only works if your target has mana to leech, which it will not in short order if you are hitting it with the max swing speed for upwards of 100 damage a hit (along with its other downfalls, its basically for ranged only), the mana burst armors only work when you get hit by a spell, and are plate armor, but I haven't really tested those so I cant speak as to their efficacy (though it seems a highly unreliable source), and MR on items is just too slow.

    As for med and focus, they just aren't fast enough to chain specials and spells that a warrior MUST chain on their own, and more importantly they suck up valuable template space on a warrior that would other wise go to tactics or resists or whatever, which are magnitudes more important.

    I think the idea of gems that add a random property to anything, like were dropped in the bane invasion are easy and simple the way to go. Just have them start dropping on named stuff or just where ever really.
     
  36. Wizal the Fox

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    Yeah I'm strongly suspicious of the couple of messages here saying that mana isn't a problem for warriors, and in essence that I'm the one who doesn't know how to play. While even beeing a 14 years vet I do mistakes, like everyone, the truth is nearly NO ONE use a weapon without HML in PvM, and certainly not against high end mobs.

    I believe the devs are somehow aware of this and that the introduction of Epiphany armor parts is an unsuccessful attempt to fix the issue. Funnily enough, if it had worked (and we would know it by now), the effect would have been that every dexxer would be using them and artifact armor parts would have became useless in turn.

    So I still stand by my proposal, but some of you have added good ideas: infusion should have a chance to break the arty (much like enhancement), and the added mod could be random, from a short list of properties like HML which wouldn't cause major balance issues, especially in PvP.
     
  37. Xalan Dementia

    Xalan Dementia Slightly Crazed
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    Meditation skill boosting fish pies, Soul charge boosting Fish pie, Mana regen fish pie. Mana draught stealable potion, Epiphany armor these are a few things you can use if you cant get HML on your weapon. Of course it takes skill to use a warrior without HML, but if you sacrifice using an Imbued weapon, you can get alot more out of a artie weap. (mostly saying that the SA/HS arties dont need any changes to make useable, now the old arties/marties, they are a different story)

    Perhaps if they add an ability to modify old arties they could make it similar to how imbuing works with SSI/DI/HML, where the more DI/SSI you have the less HML you can fit. Lets say berserkers maul for instance, first make it so you can add another mod or 2 to it but in doing so it lowers the other mods (ssi shouldnt be 75 anyway since cap is 60) So something like adding a hit spell around 35 could drop the SSI to 50 and DI down to like 35, then if you want to add one more mod it would drop the other 3.

    Or they could add the weakest arties to easier mobs for younger players to get, since they would benefit from them most (Minor arties and weaker full arties could perhaps have a raaaare chance at dropping on something a newer player would be fighting). And for the vets they could add some tricky ways to mod the arties or a collection box they could trade them in for something theyd like.

    HML arguments aside, the Old arties/marties do need some use other than unravel and a possible cleanup turnin every few years.
     
  38. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Yeah... I mean even wammies use mana leech on weapons.
     
  39. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    MR needs to be at unrealistic levels for a warrior to have a reasonable mana supply, and especially without med on your temp then it wont be noticable. Not to mention fish pies don't stack, and are hard to come by. Mana draught items have an insane cool down time that makes the effectively useless outside of a pinch. And again, epiphany armor only works under certain triggers, and forces you to wear plate armor.
    None of these methods will make fighting any boss type monsters a reasonable proposition. And even without ML I don't see many Artifact weapons that are really that comparable to even a non ML imbued weapon. 8 fairly random mods at mid levels just aren't that great. Can you use them? Sure. Can you run a template not using ML on a weapon? Sure. Is it very effective (especially against anything worth fighting) not so much.

    They should just have items that let us redistribute properties, or at least delete them, and add in items that bestow random properties without considering intensity.