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About Balanced Bows and a proposal

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Omnius, Sep 4, 2008.

  1. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    Require some degree of skill for the balanced mod on bows to work.

    Currently only archers do not suffer from disarming their offensive or defensive strengths.

    50 armslore, alchemy or taste id would level a huge imbalance in game mechanics for pvp. As archers currently still suffer next to no drawbacks it's time we require some skills to put it in line without removing the mod altogether from the game.
     
  2. Archers have been nerfed enough thanks. They already have drawbacks in that they have no option of having a 1 handed weapon, and can't use Parry.
     
  3. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    I've said this before. HLD and Hit Spell should be special moves or at least not stack with special moves. Hit lower defense is way overpowered. Also if an archer chugs a pot it should at least un-toggle their special move.

    I understand all these little things may make the game somewhat confusing but I really don't see any other way to address it. They are simply too overpowered. They can chase you, hit you every time without stopping all the while chugging pots. It is BS.
     
  4. Anyone can chase you.

    Only if they use a moving shot special, which has a hit to HCI built into it, plus a cost to mana, and even moreso if used back to back. And no Archer hits every time, HLD or not. You also have the option to have Parry and overcap your DCI to counter HLD.

    Which anyone can do.

    Which is what I said after reading your post.
     
  5. QFT
     
  6. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    Leave archers alone , they been bashed and smacked around enough thank you very much !!!!
     
  7. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    so having high range, and hitting people without ever stopping as well as using potions without the same drawbacks everyone else has is supposed to be equally valuable as parry? They get all these things without adding another skill at the loss of a skill that is basically worthless to fight anything else in uo?
     
  8. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    :twak:

    Bad boy! Bad idea for making another archery rant thread!

    :bdh: :bdh: :bdh:
     
  9. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    not hitting you they can't. Mages are stopped by their spells and melee dexers are flat out dependent on the speed of their connection if they want to chase someone down the way archers do without issue.



    one that is basically pointless given the multitude of 20+ hci balanced bows and hunter's headdress, hci jewels and the pervasiveness of HLD as a weapon mod.
    Not a major issue when you stop for the briefest of moments you can still hit at a high rate of speed.
    as opposed to anyone else with a weapon? You have a skill that makes you easily able to nullify HLA except from other archers if you're fast and suffers minimal drawbacks+major bonuses.
    so your response is that all melee dexers need to spend hundreds of millions on 1/3 15/15 jewels and find room for parry. Oh but no worries because you can just be an archer and avoid all those problems.
     
  10. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Drawbacks????? An archer has NO Parry.... An Archer can NOT disarm anyone. An Archer doesn't have the "luxury" of only needing a ONE handed weapon... An Archer DOESN'T get the opportunity to add more resist or HCI, DCI, or Reflect to his armor by carrying a Sheild....... They always have ONE less piece of equipment..... Any good dexer can hit twice as often and as hard as an Archer...... once you disarm an Archer they can't do ANYTHING but chug pots... You disarm a dexer he still gets his shield.... I don't...... I don't have the luxury of dropping said shied and still smacking away with a weapon while drinking pots, ...... it's either have Balance on my bow or drop it. Archers do not get attacks like Bleed..... the poison attack for archers is lame..... ARchers can't use a majority of the specials for bushido or ninjitsu......

    So cry to someone who cares... and LEAVE THE ARCHERS ALONE. PUT SOME FREAKING DEFENCE CHANCE ON YOUR CHARACTER AND QUIT YOUR WHINNING!!!!!

    *scowls*

    [​IMG]
     
  11. That can only be done while they have mana.


    Everyone else has the option of disarming their off hand. There are no 1 handed bows. When they come out with 1 handed mini crossbows and archers can have parry and carry a shield than that might be a good argument.

    Would you really want to have archers with Parry instead of balanced bows?

    Parry is FAR from worthless. Not having it means that any weapon wielding character has that much more chance to hit.
     
  12. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    and the materials used for your weapons are awesome, the mods better and the runics easier to obtain and at cheaper cost.
    Twice as often on an oponent thats standing still letting you whack him and as hard only if hes using a 2-handed weapon.
    and heal and cast heals and generally run around like anyone else does in UO when disarmed. Except the simple fact that archers that get disarmed are being ganked or blatantly suck(or just run at 1/2 the speed everyone else does in uo).
    So you disarm a dexxer with a one handed weapon and he gets his shield. He does no damage and thus the only effective mod on his shield is fc1 or some dci that likely doesnt matter?
    sooo you have the luxury of just dropping nothing and chugging pots? This is the basis of the entire thread. You just blatantly agreed with my post. You can use a balanced bow with no skill requirement to do things nobody else does in UO with minimal or no real hinderances.
    but hitting anything you want any time you want while moving isn't better than bleed? WHO DIES FROM BLEED?! A good mage rarely has much issue with bleed and the major losers from bleed are stealthers.
    Soooo they get all these bonuses and they lose a few minor abilities on other skill sets that aren't at all necessary for an over powered archer template?

    This was a very generic post. You basically agreed with the premise of my thread and then tried to provide some basis to disagree all the while ignoring the fact that you have an ability that is unique and powerful with no drawbacks on a character with vastly more pros than cons. according to you everyone should need something like 75 dci or 60 dci and 120 parry to pvp so they aren't slammed by the characters who choose the easy route...
     
  13. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    Have you seen a pvp template without high lmc/mr/and mana? I haven't seen one in years. This argument ignores the basic problem of adding item properties to uo without seeing them on the macro level.




    You're arguing from a stand point that this game is archers vs 1-handed dexxers. Your argument would make sense there. But this is a game where there are mages, and 3 other weapon using skills that get no huge benefits. Archers used to have to disarm their weapon to chug their pots much like everyone else disarms their shields(the single most common source of dci/hci on a pvp template). So if anyone wants to chug a pot but archers they have to be easier to hit and less capable of hitting(possibly a slower caster too) but archers commonly have huge mods on their bows which take the place of a shields mods though they don't lose those benefits for chugging.

    Basically you want archer love in a game where archers are fotm because they're easy to play, easy to gear and suffer almost no drawbacks beyond a minor hit to hci from running shot and a lack of parry(which is only useful when fighting archers).



    This is a laughable attempt to reframe the debate. Archers need no parry and they need some balancing when it comes to their over powered item mod.



    Do you really see more than 3-4 characters running around as pure melee dexxers on an average shard? Do you see idiots that stand next to those guys and let them whack on them ever? Parry is a skill that is only useful when in pvm or in defense against archers.
     
  14. And there are no Mages with SC Mage Wep heavy xbows so they can dismount? Or same thing with a melee wep for disarm?



    Archers only have one item with those mods where every other template can have 2.


    I'm not asking for archer love, I'm asking for no more archer nerfs. They've already had just about everything about them nerfed all to hell.



    I think it might also be pretty damn useful when dismounted by that heavy crossbow or bola wielding mage that then runs in to disarm them.

    I'm just going by what I've read here on Stratics of course, but this is a tactic that I've seen complained about more than once with people complaining about dismount.
     
  15. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    as I understand you can't dismount without the weapon skill and tactics..... At least requires tactics which results in some skill requirements for high powered abilities in UO working very well.





    but they pretty much have better mod intesnities because its a 2handed wooden weapon(woods being the best materials in game).





    only if this were true archers would be far less common where as the fact that its true about meleers they are very few and far between these days by comparison.





    since you move to the multiple opponents scenario we can probably assume you have guildmates as well for a fair comparison so if your guildy can't help heal you, it's not parry that's saving you but numbers that have always been the most difficult battle.

    Hardly the issue at hand. this is a discussion about archery and chugging with impunity.
     
  16. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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  17. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    First of all how many of you have seen godly balanced bows? And let me be the first to tell you without a godly bow archers are junk. You can be legendary everything but without a godly bow your gonna loose.

    Secondly have you ever been on an archer against say a dexxer tamer? Para,dismount,disarm and welcome to getting ate and bleed by dogs then beat on by a dexxer. Cuase archers are so unstopable against that right?

    Tell ya the truth archers are terrible and thats all I play :/ Now a days all it takes is someone to disarm spam ya and you can't do anythin vs a dexxer. Archer vs mage is another story, unless the mage is loaded up with parry and dci then you got yourself a battle.

    I don't chug, I use healing and when I get attacked by a dexxer with a dog and start bleeding then they hop on a ethy and im running around getting bleed by a dog and running around in circles healin with bandies waiting what 5 10 seconds to get my bow back and dismount and run... And wow lets just hope they don't have another person to gank me cuase then it's a def situation where I would die.

    Seems to me like the people talking chit bout archers either never played a parry mage or never played an archer regardless if any skill needs more help archers do.
     
  18. This was a very generic post. You basically agreed with the premise of my thread and then tried to provide some basis to disagree all the while ignoring the fact that you have an ability that is unique and powerful with no drawbacks on a character with vastly more pros than cons. according to you everyone should need something like 75 dci or 60 dci and 120 parry to pvp so they aren't slammed by the characters who choose the easy route...


    Do you die to archers alot?
     
  19. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I do. But then again, I didn't waste all my gold on those super-ubber-enhanced bows. :coco:

    But lets ask you this... How many times has threads like this been opened? How many times was a conclusion reached?
    Just go and open a greater dragon thread now, ok? I don't think that topic is as beaten dead as this.
     
  20. Basically you want archer love in a game where archers are fotm because they're easy to play, easy to gear and suffer almost no drawbacks beyond a minor hit to hci from running shot and a lack of parry(which is only useful when fighting archers).

    Eassy to gear, lol, thats a funny one. I see gear like mine on every shard in luna, I could prolly do up a suit and weapons on every shard for 100k. BWAHAHAHAHAH. not you must be real bad in uo to be dying to ppl with mediocre suits and weps
     
  21. Do you really see more than 3-4 characters running around as pure melee dexxers on an average shard? Do you see idiots that stand next to those guys and let them whack on them ever? Parry is a skill that is only useful when in pvm or in defense against archers.


    OMG what shard do you play on?
     
  22. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Wtf are you talking about? Archers dont suffer from disarming their offensive strengths?
    Thats utterly ridiculous.
    When the Devs create 1 handed bows(yes bud every other class in Uo enjoys the benefits of 1 handed weapons so why not archers?)I will possibly consider the nonsense you are trying to pass off.

    What is a mage suffering when he chugs? Can a mage not hold a 1 handed weapon OR shield and still chug? Of course he can!

    What is the warrior suffering? He can chug all day long with a 1 handed weapon. Cant chug with a weapon AND shield? Good. Thats as it should be but if it was changed it still wouldnt be a huge issue.

    What is needed is a change that requires mages to have maybe Alchemy to be able to machine-gun chug cure pots and totally negate the warriors 100 poison skill points.
    As it stands right now its a joke how mages can just carry 30 cure pots and totally negate dped weapons with 0 timer or penalty.

    Who the heck are you to decide that Archers have to be the ONLY class in Uo unable to chug? Lmao
     
  23. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    wtf you talking about now? Me thinks you need to lay off the drinks a bit. The only possible way to become one of those crazy archers to to get one of those "ubber"enhanced bows. And trust me, those are more like around 700k at least.
     
  24. nushpapa

    nushpapa Guest

    They just shouldn't have velocity at all in the game.

    Normal attack + Concussion Blow + Velocity damage + Fireball/lighting... yes the chance is like (40~% x 2) squared therefore being about 3 percent that all goes off at the same time and in 2 consecutive blows but still... i dunno of any other character that can 2 hit someone.. sorry greater dragons.. dev's dumbest idea on earth... put something in that has no purpose except to **** people off.. but thats a different topic.

    Reasonable hp for pvper (mage, hybrids etc..)? 120 i'd say

    Normal hit 25, Concussion 15-30, lighting 9-11, velocity (personally no idea but guessing 10ish)
    therefore max damage 71 damage... even if only 1 goes off thats about 61 damage... 2 hit kill still lol.


    Heres a hint for devs.. when u think of idea think of 2 things
    1. Is there a need for it?
    2. Will it cause unbalance?

    Both i believe velocity and greater dragons fail. Tamers were fine b4 not everything should be solo-able. velocity archers r strong enough w/ velocity... imagine a repeating crossbow with velocity and fireball... that could be double fireball + double velocity + double normal attack lol.... nice 6 hits w/ 1 special....


    But knowing the poor history of the devs, just leave it the way it is.. if they nerf one thing they just gonna over power something else.... they should leave pvp as it is.. and people will eventually adapt.

    Example: They wanna nerf sampires but they brought out greater dragons out a while ago... umm wasn't GD meant so tamers could compete with dexxers pvm wise?

    OO well why try fix what can't be fixed.. the uo pvp system has been ruined since PUB 16... time to move onto new and better games.
     
  25. Pied Piper

    Pied Piper Adventurer
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    You are complaining about Archers vs Dexers

    Then you complain how dexers have to pick up parry and wear def chance increase stuff

    WTF kinda dexer template you running!? The only check you will have is the Wep skill for def.....Thats yer friggin prob dude.... I think you just need to rework your template a little...

    Cuz ATM your guy cant dodge crap....Literally
     
  26. Then where is my balanced hally, or staff?
     
  27. You don't need one. You have the option of using a 1 handed weapon.

    That point must have just Whooooshed right over your head huh? :coco:
     
  28. Actually no it did not. It surely did yours though. Let me spell it out for you. The balanced property should not be limited to only one class of weapons (READ BOWS) but be allowed on all two handed weapons, and shields.

    Think of it the archer with that balanced bow, who can strike at a distance, unlike the average melee dexxer, who must get in close, but also have to contend with the "coasting code" can chug without delay if he gets low, the melee dexxer must either not use a shield, or disarm it, then chug, then rearm.

    Get it now? This is not a nerf, rather a matter of equity, ether all weapon classes should have the ability to be balanced, or none should be.
     
  29. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    That is a reasonable request. However allowing it only for bow cannot necessarily be unreasonable either, being that archers do not have a choice to use one-handed bows like all the other classes. Instead why not simply allow the "balanced" property to be on certain bows instead of all. Macing have one handed weapons, fencing definitely have one handed weapons, swords also have one handed weapons, archery doesn't.

    However, I must say that I don't use balanced bows and would not oppose it being removed, but I can see why they added it. It's not even a huge problem now that they added a "pause" between pots being chugged.
     
  30. Allowing a two handed weapon, any weapon the ability to be balanced, along with my shield, is not unreasonable.
     
  31. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Bah, why not just make it so you can strap the keg to your back with sucky straw, lol.

    But the last thing we need are everyone running around chugging pots. Think they should just take out balanced to be honest or add a scale to how effective pots can be based on a level of skill in alchemy or something.
     
  32. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    Untrue without a godly balanced bow you're simply closer to a balanced playing field.

    are you an archer that loses to dexer tamers? Unless that dexer tamer is also an archer or you're a sucker for being bola'd 1v1 this should never be a problem.

    sooo you're an archer that is letting people disarm him? One has to question your skill or connection speed if this is common place for you.
    Unless that mage isn't decked out or very good the average pvp archer shouldn't lose.

    this may sound a bit wild but when its 2v1 you should reasonably die if you're the one.

    Theres not trash talk sir, mind your language but there is a thread about balanced mod being a bit over powered.
     
  33. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    You have the only 2 handed weapons in UO where you can chug potions without any effort just slap your macro for the pot. not disarm/chug/rearm.

    I knew you'd post this and he suffers his ability to defend himself or produce supplementary damage. But hey you can call it nothing if you want.

    But he can't have the same hci/dci or fc1. You know those things he chose a one handed weapon for?
    if it were changed it would alter the entire mechanics of the game. whole areas of pvp would be altered.

    yes it's certainly an issue as well but GC should really only cure GP reliably. it shouldn't ought to cure dp/lp as easy.

    I never said that at all. I suggested that there be a skill requirement to chug with impunity rather than a single mod on a weapon that alters the entire dynamics of pvp.
     
  34. You're forgetting that a Bushido dexxer can use a one handed weapon without a shield and chug pots all day long without losing a single thing.
     
  35. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Then why did you make this thread mainly about bows? As the title says "About Balanced Bows and a proposal" And saying that "balanced" property alters the entire dynamics of pvp is completely ridiculous. Instead of arguing about the ability to chug pots you turned this whole thing into another archery bashing thread. After all, every can chug pots, but instead you decided to focus on archers chugging, lmao.
     
  36. Sir Kenga

    Sir Kenga Guest

    You get parry bonus with 2 handed weapons, archers don't. That's why they get balanced bows. I think it's ok.
     
  37. Cear Dallben Dragon

    Cear Dallben Dragon Babbling Loonie
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    i hate archery and love balanced bows, just like i like the idea of certian small shields, IE buckler-chaos being possibly balanced. would be a nice rare property. and its pretty realistic. i have a buckler that straps on to my forearm leaving me an open hand. like this
    [​IMG]
     
  38. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    When Archers can also Disarm and Bleed then yes, all classes should have balanced weapons. But until then no effing way IMO
     
  39. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    What are you talking with your "dynamics" statement?

    Please explain to me exactly what the 'dynamics" are and how balanced bows are altering them.

    Are you a politician irl? Because your statement about dynamics makes no sense and lacks any shred of definition. It is nothing but smoke & mirrors.

    As has been previously stated by other posters you did not start this thread to assess the 'balanced' property with a open mind. You are quite obviously having serious issues with Archers and want some help from the Devs.

    You want to actually talk about altering pvp dynamics? Then lets talk about weapon Disarm period. Nothing else comes close to being so screwed up.

    Peace
     
  40. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
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    Since pretty much everyone else has listed the valid points of where your request and logic are flawed, and you still insist on running around with a bag over your head screaming the sky is falling...I will be short in my answer. Hopefully in a term you can understand:


    No
     
  41. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Remove disarm
    Remove bleed
    Add balanced to all 2-handed weapons and shields


    /thread :/
     
  42. did you see the post above re: 2 handed weapons add parry bonus with bushido skill.

    So lets add some parry to archers now to balance that one out
     
  43. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Goodness, if we added parry to archers, we'd see more archer bashing threads than we could possibly imagine :p
     
  44. chad

    chad Sage
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    They just need to lower the damage output on cross bows and heavys. Or remove balanced.
     
  45. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Nah, they should just not allow threads on archery complaints anymore. It's like a broken record that is stuck on repeat that has been playing for too long, but you can't seem to stop it, or even pull the plug since its stuck in the wall there really good and the record is inside a bullet proof glass casing with the volume turned up to max and you can't even take the record off. Did I mention the wire can't be cut?
     

  46. Ya

    How about those Super dragons that hit you for 60 damage right after the dismount and then from 2 screens away hit for another 62 damage.

    For me thats death, cuz I cant heal fast enough.

    Bola, all kill, inviz

    ROTFLMFAO

    is this even playing uo?
    chumps can do this while watching tv or cooking dinner for the kids.
     
  47. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    The Moving Shot can be spammed, I don't see anyone having trouble with their mana.

    You can replace Parry with a weapon skill on your archer since you don't need it actually. Job done, you can now Disarm.

    You can't parry but then you don't need to. We drop our shields when you smack us running all over the place with your exaggerated special moves, effectively becoming as limited as someone who doesn't use one(that's you, archers) in order to drink potions, or run around with 1Hand weapons for the exact same reason. And people using 2Hand weapons are more than screwed with all this.

    You drink pots with a 2Hand weapon without any skill.

    You have the most powerfull weapons in the game and they are ranged as well. Both in terms of Special Moves, means of delivery and pure damage.

    You also benefit from an extra item, quivers. Aside the 5% DCI the rest of them are useless, where are our magical sword seathes with extra DI? I don't see any.

    You can afford to forego DCI because you're mainly too far away from your target.

    You have ranged Dismount without Bola and therefore without having to drop your items to use one.

    The Devs had to tone down skills especially so that archers may become balanced but archery still wins the day.

    There are more archers than mages in UO currently, at least on my server. A lot more. I will admit there's a lot more PvP tamers than archers too for the matter, which says something.

    Stealth archers with Ninjitsu simply cannot die unless they are dumb. Mainly because of range.

    Bushido archers also cannot die with Confi and are even more formiddable because of the Barrage of Yumi.

    Archery gangs are in par with Omen gangs now. Maybe even more deadly and sudden.

    DCI, Parry, all those stupid solutions? Tried them all for too long and whether you're ready to believe it or not THEY OFFER ABSOLUTELY NOTHING against archery with all the RNG crap, in the long run.

    I don't suppose you want me to go on, because you barely even pay attention to what I'm saying, thinking I contradict myself. Or you will just throw in some cheesy line telling me I suck in PvP. Is okay, easy way out for you. 1-0 I lose have a nice day. :bowdown:

    *EDIT* I won't even mention Tamer/Archer and Pallie/Archer, the last being pure excess if you are not 70's all over your resists.
     
  48. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    wrong. the player in question loses 15/15 hci/dci.
     
  49. Uh, wrong, big time.
     
  50. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    While it was plainly obvious by my post the dynamics of pvp do include the fact that playing UO, most people must macros 3 times to chug a pot and return to maximum capability. Disarm/Chug/Rearm(with delays between all in most cases). Thats a huge time requirement to do legitimately(some folks do use cheating programs to streamline this process. If you don't think everyone having balanced and still no skill requirement wouldn't alter pvp in a big way, you have no concept of how anything in any game works on a macro-scale.


    The rest of your post was riddled with trolls, re-state them in a manner that is polite and I may address your thoughts.