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About petballs

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Guest, Feb 15, 2008.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    We've all read of the problems they're causing in pvp combat.

    Of course the cries are for removing them, and removing pet bonding, which is never going to happen because it hits too many innocents.

    However, sensible, realistic restrictions on their use would seem to be needed. Here are a few ideas I had:

    A visible way for someone to tell a pet has been summoned. I lean towards the idea of an emote above the head similar to that when using a bola.

    A delay before the summons is responded to - say 10 seconds?

    Conditions to be met: Cannot summon while flagged?

    Delay on re-use, or use of a 2nd ball. Maybe 5 minutes?

    Who else has suggestions that would help pvp without unduly hitting everyone who uses petballs for other purposes?
     
  2. First of all, restrictions to pet ball would affect a lot of people.

    If you are dismounted (Typical pvp situation) and you have a pet ball to retrieve a pet from stable, a 10 seconds delay is going to be deadly.

    Restrictions based on flagging aren't going to work either as there are too many flagging bugs around and it would be artificial as in combat situations (champ spawn, harrower, factions, ...) the flag doesn't always reflect the real situation.
    Say you are working a spawn with your tamer. You decide to begin by throwing EV and to summon pets later. At last skulls come two reds. What are you going to do? Summon you pets or wait for them to flag first? The ones who are really attacking are the reds even if they are not flagged.

    Actually the problem related to pet balls in PvP is more about the repetitive use of pet balls, like a tamer in animal form following a dismounted target and using repeatedly the pet ball. Just have a 30 seconds delay between uses should solve that.
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Thing is though, if nobody restricts pet balls or ninja tamers, then the next thing is to look at downgrading their pets. It's a case of what can you adapt to most easily?

    Pet balls seem to be like a comfort blanket for tamer PvPers now. I wonder how many can hold their own in a fight without their pets.

    When I go out without my pets, I don't carry a ball to summon if I get attacked. I just deal with the attack or stealth off. If I do need my pets I take them in with me from the start, or if I do need to summon, I go somewhere safe to do it. A 1 min delay wouldn't affect me in the least, nevermind 10 seconds [​IMG] You simply need to adapt to these things.

    The flip side of meeting a tamer with pet balls right now is you get no warning of an incoming pet, then if they keep up with you pulling the pet to your side constantly, you have no escape. That just shouldn't be possible.

    I like Petra's ideas, I think we need a delay (5-10 secs) where that pet is not going to follow a kill command. They'll obey follow and stay, but you won't be able to drop a runey on someone's head. The other option is to say that you can only use a pet ball once every 30 mins. But that would hurt PvM tamers who use pet balls to rescue otherwise trapped pets. So I don't think it's workable. We can also have charges used based on how many control slots you use. So to call a WW=3 charges, a greater draggy=5.

    Wenchy
     
  4. <blockquote><hr>


    When I go out without my pets, I don't carry a ball to summon if I get attacked. I just deal with the attack or stealth off. If I do need my pets I take them in with me from the start, or if I do need to summon, I go somewhere safe to do it. A 1 min delay wouldn't affect me in the least, nevermind 10 seconds [​IMG] You simply need to adapt to these things.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, how are ou going to deal with the attacker with 3 useless taming skills (without pet) and hiding and stealth? That leaves you at best with 2 skills for dealing with the attacker. You have seriously no other options than to summon pets or stealth away. And tbh, it may not affect you, but your tamer template with stealth is not very common.
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I'd settle for can't use a petball in Fel lost lands and champ dungeons. Tamers can walk their pets in if needed.

    Doesn't help those at Yew gate but that's not really PvP.
     
  6. A re-work of the ENTIRE flagging system ... of which Pets would be a part ... yes ?

    couple things to think about on the "exit" end ..

    Just on the pet side of the issue: how about ...
    no fleeing in the heat of battle ?
    Pets included ...

    How is it currently? tamer (regardless of flag condition) can retreat off screen, a goodly distance ... dead or alive
    and "&gt;too easily&lt;" Force a Recall of a near dead pet ... yes?
    Master goes off screen for any reason ... while being engaged in combat ...
    should be hard to hear a "call to retreat" ... yes?
    Different flagging status levels there? (which part of the ambush ... predator or prey) ?

    Or ...
    How about ... when recalled ..away from battle ... a gate ... leading to the escape point ... opens up and is accesible to combatants .. to follow on ...
    ??? mmmm??
    be a part of the Larger flagging issue ... especially blues fleeing ...
    Certainly would want a properly flagged blue(aggressed FIRST) ... to not be able to insta saftey to Tram ruleset ...
    running away would still be available ... just not as far ... while combat timer counts down ...

    On the "incoming end"
    Sure, a little warning of an inbound would be nice ... like "menacingly swinging a bola ..."
    need something to "keep fair" a highlevel stealther, being a High level skill set ... should be "some cost"
    in diverting ones attention between two tasks ...
    Hiding in plain sight AND controlling a powerful beast ... at a distance ... more distance ... more cost
    or
    one at a time ...
    *shrugs*

    How is it currently?
    A stealther can Enter OR pre-stage and wait ... mount an ethy while hidden, posed for a quick surprise pass ...
    Kinda hard to keep a non mount hidden ...
    New Super Dragon ... is an added twist ...

    What other "flagging" issues ... as a complete system ... need to be considered ...
    Towns and gates and ingress/egress through choke points ... like moon gates and dungeon entrances
    Guard zone issues too?

    hummmm ...
    A re-work of the ENTIRE flagging system ... of which Pets would be a part ... yes ?
    Does such a FULL overveiw exist now?
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Before anything can be done to petballs, pet AI needs to be addressed. You can't discuss limiting usage when you tell your pet to follow you and it's always 5 screens away killing some random monster. Pets pathfind like crap. You walk around a tree it gets stuck on it. Petballs are a bandaid fix for pitiful AI.
     
  8. Nerf-Herder

    Nerf-Herder Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Before anything can be done to petballs, pet AI needs to be addressed. You can't discuss limiting usage when you tell your pet to follow you and it's always 5 screens away killing some random monster. Pets pathfind like crap. You walk around a tree it gets stuck on it. Petballs are a bandaid fix for pitiful AI.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Use "All Come" instead of "All Follow Me" and you should have far fewer problems with your pets getting hung up on trees and other obstacles.

    IMO, the petballs should have a slight timer (maybe 15 seconds), and you should NEVER be able to use a pet ball when you are flagged as an aggressr in PvP.
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Pets pathfind beautifully, if you use the correct command for it. 'come' instead of 'follow' works a treat.

    A magical pet will teleport straight to your location, which is very useful when the darn thing has teleported after a monster that's otherwise inaccessible and it can't just walk back.

    Maybe my ideas aren't entirely suitable, but that's why I posted them here, for others with different view points to hammer out a workable answer.

    I think we all agree that a large pet landing in your lap with no warning and no chance to counter isn't acceptable (with the possible exception of the owners of the surprise package pets). But neither is removing petballs from the game, or worse, removing bonding.
     
  10. Al Thorin

    Al Thorin Guest

    This thread is full of hogwash.

    Add a 10 second 'rearm' bark for dexers! Tell me they're going to rearm their disarmed weapon in 10 seconds! In fact, tell me what it is!

    Add a 10 second 'cool' down for poison! If I forgot my cure pots, I die cause people can keep me poisoned faster than I can cure (Protection, but it's their fault for poisoning me!)

    It should take 10 seconds for a stealther to hide. They have to be standing still too. I hate it when I've got someone red lined, and they just vanish around a corner. No warning, nothing, just poof. Seriously, how am I suposed to fight that?


    Siege is the only place that has any right to complain about tamers.
    Ninja Forms should take follower slots.

    Outside of that, there's very little wrong.

    Getting swarmed by tamers? Maybe it's time to bring out the PVM dexers, and bards. 90% of the people who play a tamer won't stick to it if they can't get kills and die alot.

    Adapt. Change your bloody tactics. Guess that? Bards -are- effective, if you use them intelligently. That PVM dexer god? USE IT. Go out in groups designed to be a well ballanced GROUP for what troubles you.

    Some people might need to get past the fact that, hey, they might have to play something DIFFERENT that doesn't bennifit THEM, but bennifits the GROUP.

    Everyone can't play a stealthing ninja assasin, or bushido dex monkey, or a SDI Necro mage and expect to do well in all situations.

    Guess what? Pure damage and PVP skill as a single template is -not- the end-all-be-all.
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Actually, yes, there is a timer before you can re-arm after you've been disarmed, though I'm not sure how long it is.

    And I, for one, am not advocating tamers not being able to pvp. It's only the unannounced, unexpected arrival of the tamer's pets that are an issue as far as I can tell.
     
  12. Al Thorin

    Al Thorin Guest

    I would have agreed with you, many, many years ago.
    As is, tamers have two strengths, burst damage, and the abilty to haul god awfully slow pets on top of someone.

    Even with that said, most of the kills I've gotten are from people running AT ME, long after my pets have been summoned. I've gotten very few kills in comparison to summoning a pet, and sick it on someone. Often, the suddon arrival of a beast results in some very quick distance by your target.

    This can vary though, I don't play a stealther, or a ninja.

    The best chance I have to kill someone is once they've gotten 'comfortable' enough to come to me.
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I have no problem with petballs being nerfed in this way. They'll still be useful in non combat situations, but if you want your pets in the battle, you'll have to bring them in ahead of time.

    If this effectively limits or eliminates tamers from pvp, that's also fine with me. Tamers are kings of PvM, they shouldn't also be kings of PvP.

    PvP is supposed to be player vs player, not player vs pet.

    Using bards in PvPet works somewhat now, but won't work against the new superdragons due to the high barding difficulty. Also, a bard is a defensive support character that is useless on his own in pvp.
     
  14. I had been suggesting that a delay was added to pet summoning so pet summoning can't be used as part of an offensive combo. I like your solution better [​IMG]
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Summarising, and taking on board posts from other, current threads, the following seems to be acceptable to a majority:

    A visible way for someone to tell a pet has been summoned. eg an emote above the head similar to that when using a bola. (a summoning animation such as is used for etherals would not be seen if the summoner was mounted)

    A delay before the summons is responded to - equivelant to the summoning of an etheral mount?

    Delay on re-use, or use of a 2nd ball. To be determined - 5 minutes is suggested.


    Would it be worthwhile to create a poll to judge how popular/unpopular this would be?
     
  16. Lug

    Lug Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    Pet balls should work like a spell.

    First it should freeze the summoner just like a mage casting a spell.

    It should be interuptable, just like a spell.

    It should take about as long to summon a pet as it does to cast blade spirit with out having casting jewelry on.

    It should display a message over the summoners head to the effect of " so-and-so begins to gaze into a csytall ball... as if searching for something."
     
  17. as a pvper who fights these tamers every day.
    All that is needed is a delay on the pet ball.
    Really a delay of 120 seconds on a pet ball between summons would make my hatred of pvp tamers go away. Just that alone would probably make pvp tamers vanish from the field.
    Of course I mean no matter how many petballs you have the delay still applies.
     
  18. Oh ya and my suggestion would be for fel only, they can keep it as is in carebear land
     
  19. Nerf-Herder

    Nerf-Herder Guest

    Add this: cannot use pet ball in animal form.


    For the people advocating control slots for animal forms:
    It is stupid to make an animal form take a control slot. You are spending skill points to be able to do it, and animal forms/ninjitsu combined with taming is NOT the problem.

    The problem is when pet balls are introduced into the equation.
    Ninjitsu + Tamiing + PET BALL = PROBLEM
    Ninjitsu + Taming = LOL

    I'm serious. I have a ninja tamer, and I have attacked decent pvpers with my pets. The only time I wind up killing a decent pvper this way is in a chokepoint, or if they are already severely damaged. They almost always get away.

    If I grab a pet ball, shift to animal form, attack, then run with them while repeatedly drilling my petball... THEY [censored] DIE!

    Are you advocates of animal form control slots understanding the situation now? Adding those slots wont fix this problem, and could potentially ruin other skill combinations involving the ninjitsu skill; making less room for creative templates.

    Whenever a problem is at least partially caused by an item, you ALWAYS fix the item first before you even attempt to change skills. Leave ninja alone, at least for now.

    Thank you
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    What is currently suggested, on the thread with the poll, is that when you summon a pet a visible message is seen, along the lines of that seen when using a bola, and there may be a delay roughly equivelant to the time required to summon an etheral mount.

    Following use the ball would give a 'you must wait to perform another operation' message roughly equivelant to that received after using peace or stealing skills. This would also prevent a stealther re-hiding, in exactly the same way as a thief can't re-hide immediately after stealing.
     
  21. JoyousGard

    JoyousGard Guest

    Pet balls should work in Ilshenar.

    If pets can't obey commands, that is, they run all over the place trying to kill whatever attacks them,

    then pet balls should be allowed to be used in Ilshenar.

    I need to get my white wyrm to the back of a dungeon and I have to log out and back in to do it.

    Ridiculous.

    Remove the years old restraints put on Ilshenar. They don't make sense anymore.