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Add a timer = balanced pvp?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by RL'S pker, Apr 29, 2011.

  1. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    Nothing in pvp will ever be completly balanced. I've come to understand that, and accept it. But, there's no reason we can't try and get it close. These are just a few of my ideas.

    -Increase the apple timer to 40 seconds.

    -Increase the smoke bomb timer to 40 seconds.

    -Add a cure potion timer 10-15 seconds.

    With these changes you wouldn't always have to deal with griefing stealthers that are insanly hard to kill because of the short smoke bomb timer.

    A longer apple timer would bring back necro templates, and give mages in general a better chance at fighting the dex heavy UO.

    Cure potions have needed a timer for a LONG time. TBH, I'm shocked there's not one currently in.

    What's everyone else think? I'm sure threads like this have been brought up, but something needs to be done!
     
  2. AzSel

    AzSel Lore Keeper
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    I do agree on this point.
     
  3. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Oh great so apple timer screws you over when hit by a mystic spamming SP

    Use area spells to reveal stealthers

    Cure timers would just be open to abuse by posion spams by 2 or more mages


    All 3 changes you wish would totaly unbalance PvP
     
  4. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    I agree somewhat with the apple and smoke bomb timers. It should be more than 40 sec for both imo, but 40 is a good start. Its a completely joke currently.

    No timer on cure pots. They should make DP and L5 harder to cure. Everyone has EP anyway... Either remove EPs affect on Cure Pots or make poisons a bit harder to cure. EP totally negates poisoning and makes it completely obsolete.
     
  5. Elric_Soban

    Elric_Soban Babbling Loonie
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    g-cures need a timer, or some kindof serious nerf. negating 100 skill points at the press of a button is just bad game design.
     
  6. olduofan

    olduofan Guest

    O/T

    I have a question in what order would you say the 3 races fall in as far as PvP which is the most used race and so on?

    What is the most popular templates/class and for which races?

    maybe I should start a new thread?
     
  7. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    start a new thread.
     
  8. mjolnir131

    mjolnir131 Guest

    the cool down timers for anything that everybody can carry is ridiculous want to really balance PvP then drop all those timers
     
  9. Cardell

    Cardell Lore Keeper
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    40+ EP negates poisoning, not GCure.. You need to use 2 or 3 GCures to cure a DP or Darkglow... wtf are you talking about..
     
  10. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    It's very silly that 100 skill points are for not with poisoning. Not only that, there's almost no reason for a mage outside of duels to cast poison anymore. unless you're poisoning someones mount, or pushing a grinder with poison fields there's just no reason to cast it.

    A cure pot timer is a must! That, or like another poster stated making EP not effect cure pots. I personally would prefer a timer though.
     
  11. lucitus

    lucitus UOEC Modder
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    I think the problem with the apple timer is that perma mortal is then possible again.

    Cure delay is cool.
    Apple timer also, but it should also remove all curses also the new gimp curse of mystic and not mystic first and no other.

    Another big thing is the new running speed system i remember they had brought it on TC the last year it was great, but what happend to that?
     
  12. red sky

    red sky Sage
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  13. funkymonkey

    funkymonkey Lore Keeper
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    They need to do co,thing to cure pots, Dp is worthless, what makes it even more worthless its counted to the 300 skill points for LMC, at least this way we could get some different temps pvping around the place.

    Apples are fine imo but saying that i would like to see necros back, myabe something like diminishing returns could solve that issue? more you use the less it works.


    Just an idea.
     
  14. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Instead of adding timers to consumables why don't they finally revamp the whole eating thing? Your stomach can hold 6 units of drink/food and it goes down by one unit every 5 minutes. Every potion, enchanted apple and piece of food is 1 unit. So you can drink 6 cure potions, but the 7th will be 5 minutes away and you can't eat any apples. These numbers are just for an example. With a system like this you wouldn't need a timer on anything, just balance the effect.

    Of course this wouldn't apply to smoke bombs.
     
  15. PsychoKinetic

    PsychoKinetic Journeyman
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    The day that a timer is added to greater cure potions is the very same day that I will put 80 poisoning skill back on my mage.

    I don't think I would be alone in that choice.
     
  16. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Aye it would be abused to no end :thumbsup:
     
  17. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    Not at all. While there could be a timer on cure pots in no way would it be abused. You're thinking along the lines of cure pots being the ONLY way to cure youself.

    You're forgetting mages have two spells to cure.

    Cure- Very fast spell to cast.

    Arch cure- Slower, but cures DP.

    Dexxer have chiv, and aids to cure poison.

    In no way would putting a timer on cure pots be unfair. As you can see while you're waiting for the cure pot timer, there's plenty of ways to cure and stay alive.
     
  18. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    The only other change they would have to make adding a cure potion timer would be to make it so you can heal through poison. Just so it would be a DoT spell not a chain mortal strike spell. You have to think about the repercussions of changing something before you go blurting out you want a timer for this and a timer for that.

    You want to see a spell used more than the blindly changed spell plague spell or see more people running till their cure timer is up ... add a timer to cure pots.
     
  19. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Because it's a bad idea. And has been ever since someone's thought of it. That's why there's not one.
     
  20. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    You're implying that all dexers have chivalry. And you're implying that dexer's aids cure as fast as a chivalry or magery characters cure would cure. Last I checked my aids would cure every 4-5 seconds...
     
  21. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    Never did I imply all dexxers have chiv to cure. I implied that all dexxer has access to chiv. They do.

    Honestly I think the only reason you're against it, is it would change your current templates and play style. If a dexxer doesn't want to add 40chiv to a template they can carry petals. If they are wise they can time their cures, and heals right and be fine. Do you realize how many times in the past mages have had to revamp all their templates and play style? At least this change would make sense.

    Posion should not be easy to cure.

    I'm not worried about people running if they get double poisoned after waisting their first cure pot. It will just force people to use their cures more wisely, and not just insta cure pot the second they're poisoned.

    As is people insta run the second someone gets the curse, plague, oath, strangle, mortal, disarm, and even bleed off. I don't think adding poison to the list would hurt.
     
  22. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I'm kind of leaning with puni so far, reading this thread.

    Does anyone know how saturation, for lack of the right word, works? How, by drinking multiple cure pots in a row, you can sometimes not cure a deadly poison, for example?
     
  23. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
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    I think I am going to have to go with increasing pots weight again.

    Some of us remember the abuse of the spells and abilities that led up to the current status quo.

    Currently, you can run an opponent out of cures and apples...eventually. If anything..I would like to see full pot's weight increased to 3-4 stones each. The increase to 2 stones had a dramatic effect to pot chuggers system wide. It didn't go quite far enough. Limiting the amount of pots one can carry seems to be the most balanced way to go.
     
  24. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Many dexters do not have Chiv, so they have a 4 second timer on bandies. I am guessing you have not played the game long enough to remember this kind of abuse that went on in the past.

    No template should be forced to have chiv on it just to counter one spell, that can be abused to no end, without any counter mesure.

    Increase on apple timers opens mages up to mortal spams again, and leaves dexters wide open to mystics and necros


    PvP as it is right now, is balanced, if anything PvP may just be better for the mage type of class right now more than the dexter class. But its presty blanced on the whole
     
  25. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Really what's going on here is an old skill from an old game isn't mixing so well with the all the new skills from the new UO. Poisoning honestly shouldn't even be a skill anymore. Much like forensic evaluation or item identification. To make it incurable more than once for any amount of time is game breaking for pvp because it limits people to all having to have the same skills. Chivalry or magery.
     
  26. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    How is it balanced? Archers do 50dm AI's with double hit spell bows. Bushido dexxers can evade half of what a mage casts+4 second heals/confidence 8 second apples, and 50 EP to stay alive. A lot of people cry about tamers, but personally I don't mind fighting them. pets are easily parad.

    Personally I don't play a mystic mage, instead I play a necro mage. I've no trouble fighting mystics. Increasing the apple timer is a must. It's almost impossible to get a curse or blood oath to stick on anyone. I don't even waste my mana on strangle anymore do to the short apple timer.

    I'm still standing firm next to the Cure potion timer. In my opinion there's no reason poison should be so easily cured. I'm not asking for a long timer on that. I'd even be happy if there was a 5-8 second timer on it. Something needs to be done to make poisoning worth while again. Maybe just making it way harder to cure would work too. A timer might not be a must here, but something needs to be done to make poisoning worth while. maybe make it take 3-4 cure poitions to cure DP.

    I saw someone say leave smoke bombs alone. That people can use area spells to reveal stealthers. By the time you manage to cast an area spell the stealther has walked off screen. If you some how manage to reveal them they run around for 8 seconds and they can smoke bomb again. Increasing the timer on smoke bombs wouldn't ruin the stealther class at all. Instead it would give everyone a fair chance at killing them.

    Either way, if you think pvp is balanced currently you're NUTS!
     
  27. Yes nerf cure pots and apples. The modern pvper has to many ways to heal and apples negate necro totally. The lack of diversity in mages now is boring and fights usually take way longer than they should due to people using pots instead of spells...its annoying
     
  28. SixUnder

    SixUnder Legendary Assassin
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    what is the point of this thread?

    you are doing nothing but bashing dexers.. melee dexers that is.. and to a point archers.

    if you are one on one vs. a tank mage, mystic, or necro mage you had to wait for your bandaids(which have allready been raised timer raised twice) post aos then your looking at this..

    4 sec to cure..
    4 sec more to heal
    add a bleed 4 sec to heal the bleed..
    or a mortal in there... 4 sec to wait on mortal then 4 to heal after
    another what 8 sec timer?
    oh ya and every time you take over 19 dmg you get a slip in your bandaid and your heal is reduced by 33% or some stupid number.
    dont even get me started on how rediculous it is, or how hard it is to fight 2,3,4 on 1 with 4 sec bandaids. But if your even a crappy mage you can tele around, protection, stone form, healstone.

    shall we talk about how rediculously fast cleansing winds is and how still overpowered it is? :thumbsup::thumbsup:

    apples and remove curse are all people who play melee characters have to use in fell these days to every other perosn spamming spell plague, evil omen,blah blah. and if they are red chiv is usually out the door. so adding a apple timer, even longer is ********.:cursing: sorry discriminative.

    you can run around all day and do hundred plus dmg to people people with exp, eagle strike, spell plague trigger in meer seconds ... yet no one talks about the fc and fcr of mysticism.

    remember when aos first came out and you could cast 4/6 mage and necro? or even past then when necro was still not capped.

    if you want to talk about balanced pvp you have to talk about both sides of the spectrum. adding timers for one does not fix the other.
     
  29. SixUnder

    SixUnder Legendary Assassin
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    wait a little ole minute their mr evasion basher. it has been nerfed, renerfed, and nerfed again.

    go to stratics website, with 120 bush, 120 parry, 150 dex.. all capped still only can evade 35% of what is hit or cast at you. and that is if you have over Gm anatomy, and Gm tactics which as of the last bushido nerf is a REQUIREMENT.

    after the math, you have to invest yes a total of 440 skill points to evade with a one handed weapon and evade 35% of the time. of which you can ONLY do every 12 seconds.

    if you think that is fine the way it is, you need to lay off the acid.
     
  30. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    The problem I see with a timer for Cure Pots is that you would have to have a timer as well for Poison (spell or skill), otherwise you make Poisoning a spam tactic and way overpowered.

    Maybe a timer for BOTH to slow down the tactics on both sides? But then that would also have to apply to PvM where poison-based creatures and spell casters have a NASTY habit of being able to land poisoning effects literally the instant you cure the previous instance of poison.
     
  31. chuckoatl

    chuckoatl Guest

    @ sixunder


    It's obvious you do not play a mage. I mean necros are almost obsolete. They have been nerfed so bad from apples its not even funny. I don't have a problem with cure pots or anything else really but when it takes you 5-6 seconds to get your curses off then you have 2 seconds to dump? I mean really? Dexxers have it easy, when things get harry you can just run until your bandie goes off. You can run and cast confidence. You can run and chug. You can dodge spells. You can disarm, bleed, mortal, poison, AI, all on the run. I feel no pity for any dexxer out there.
     
  32. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    lol take a chill pill buddy. The point of the thread, was to see everyones opinion on increasing the timers.

    Any dexxer bashing I've done was used to point out the need for increased timers, and was mainly done in response to someone. I started out pvping on a dexxer, and still love it. Even still I can see many problems them.

    I agree with you on Mysticism 100%. Personaly i think a lot needs to be changed about it. BUT, here's the thing...this thread was made to discuss the timer on apples/smoke bombs/and cure potions. NOT MYSTICISM.

    If you make a thread on mysticism I'll gladly comment, and agree there needs to be nerfs.

    I would love to hear both sides though. Saying "ok if you want to increase the timer on apples to 40 seconds, then spell plague needs a cool down timer too." I LIKE THIS! See that's why I created this thread. I think a change needs to be done, but admittedly I might not know the best way to do so.

    If you have ideas than post them. Don't go on the dexxer defense/bash to start.
     
  33. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    exactly!

    So far the two subjects both sides can't agree on is the apple timer, and adding a cure potion timer. No one has really complained about increasing the timer to smoke bombs.

    So is it safe to say we all agree smoke bombs need an increased timer? If so, that's a start!
     
  34. chuckoatl

    chuckoatl Guest

    Smoke bombs dont need a timer in my opinion. I do however think that stealthers should be reviled when they take damage over say 20 points. I mean if you can slip a bandie at 19 why cant you pop a guy out of hiding with the same damage? Hell I have a stealther and I find it incredibly easy to survive when I can just *poof* gone even when still taking damage.
     
  35. chuckoatl

    chuckoatl Guest

    One more thing. Make it so you can pop people out of animal form again with purge magic. Pretty sure that is the only spell you cant purge.
     
  36. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Poisoning is still very useful....

    Ever tried xhealing with cleansing on a grinder push when your teammates are standing in poison fields casted by poison/mages? Cleansing Winds doesn't always cure level 5...
     
  37. Lets leave things the way they are, because lets be honest everytime they try and fix something, they break something else :p
     
  38. You can't be purged out of animal form?
     
  39. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    When mysticism first came out you could. They made it so you can't now, not sure why...
     
  40. Ahh, never even realised, i remember getting purged out of animal form once and never even noticed they changed it lol
     
  41. Elden of Baja

    Elden of Baja Journeyman
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    Lets look at gains and losses from apple timer for templates Mage VS Dexxer style. (That is Mage VS Dexxer Fights)


    Apples:

    Mages:
    Can't Remove Mortal
    -SS heals through mortal + cleansing winds removes and cures mortal so mysto's and necros can counter this.
    -Mages can Precast a heal and wait for the timer to go up, and instantly apply the heal the second the mortal is over.

    Dexxers:
    Curse
    Bload Oath
    Spell Plague
    Strangle
    Corpse Skin
    Slow

    All would require to have mysto or chiv on your template to combat those.

    Cure Pot Timer:

    Anyone who thinks cure pots needs timers has obviously never fought a 120 ninja who is competent with shurikens. I even use them on my mage. 40s Timer for Cure Pots!? U Crazy!?

    All this will do is Kill most templates without Chiv, and everyone will be running around on 4/6 chiv, Resisting spells, Spell weavers, who do nothing but throw pixies, bleed, and shuriken you all day long.

    Smoke Bombs:

    They sacrifice 220 Skill points just to be able to move around in stealth(And still get revealed by elfs walking by), and if they are competent they still need 90 Ninjitsu to actually move quickly in stealth. I'll admit they are annoying, but smoke bombs is one of the FEW things they actually have going for them.

    And Cleansing winds definitely needs to be addressed in another thread.
     
  42. Mook Chessy

    Mook Chessy Certifiable
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    Over my 13 years on UO I have seen the balance of power move around to all templates


    Now, once again it is the time of the mage, Myst is nutz.

    IMHO if you placed the timers as you seek them dexxie would not stand a chance, unless you are buffed up on a level 6 focus a good myst/mage dump will do 100++and kill most, the well timed apple is needed and if you place the timer, dexxies will die on the second dump.

    Please understand I am not speaking to any one person, just making general statements.

    I vote to leave all items as they are


    I also need to point out that if we go throught all the classes and all the nerfs the mage remains the least touched class. Think about it, spells cost the same as they did in 1997, kind of crazy that everything else in UO had been changed yet the base spells have never been touched. I still feel curse is the most overpowerd spell in the game, drop resists over 40 points and drop stats over 50 points.

    F Mages :)
     
  43. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Necro mage obsolete? I'm not trying to gloat but the only mages that have ever really stood a chance against one of my dexers in a 1v1 situation has only been a necro mage that really knows what he's doing. Freeking Sourbutt always gets me in the end!
     
  44. chuckoatl

    chuckoatl Guest

    Mystic vs Necro..... necro win 75% of the time, and thats if the necro plays flawless. If there was a 40+ second apple timer the weight would fall back into the hands of the necro.

    BTW, someone said a 40s cure pot timer. No idea where that came from, you were the first to say anything like that. I can see 8 seconds.
     
  45. RL'S pker

    RL'S pker Sage
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    Paith will get most in a one v one situation.

    A good mystic vs a Good Necro mage, the Mystic should win everytime IMO.

    @Elden of Baja
    No one said 40 seconds on cures. Around 10 seconds was suggested.
     
  46. Elden of Baja

    Elden of Baja Journeyman
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    Yeah, just scrolled back up after reading the whole thing and realized I got the smokebomb/cure addons suggested mixed up.

    Still a bad idea though....... The Repercussions will make pvp far more unbalanced than it is now.
     
  47. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Smoke bombs most certianly DON'T need a timer.

    And just the fact that you think they do proves that you have no clue when it comes to pvp.

    They are the only item among your list that requires other skills to use yet you want to nerf them? Thats just laughable.

    Why do you think they should be nerfed? They are too dangerous lol? Or are you just too frustrated because you cant instantly kill a stealther who has invested a boatload of points into his template just to be able to hide?

    How about a timer on casting Harm? Make too much sense?

    Or paralyze? Nothing like getting attacked by a ganksquad spamming paralyze.

    But I guess you cant see the flawed correlation between using a trapped box to evade paralyze & machine-gun chugging cure pots to completely negate a poison warrior.

    *shakes head*
     
  48. Merion

    Merion Lore Master
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    I disagree with erverything the OP said.
     
  49. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    The only way I'd agree with a cure potion timer would be if bandages worked like cleansing winds. It would cure+heal (not remove curses) but at a less intensity than normal depending on the level of the poison. This way dexers could still spam their nonsense and mages with poisoning would be a bit more effective vs. a dexer and it would promote the use of an old skill again. The cure effect might have to be added to greater heal and heal also depending on what the test results of timers on cure potions shows.