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Discussion in 'UO Siege Perilous' started by Draxous, Sep 1, 2010.
Do you support this?
Is it possible to prevent posting, but still allow the poll?
A mod should definitely look into that if its possible...
While I do not see a different result, This will slide... until the sniping starts.
Prevent discussion on a discussion forum? Are you mad?
Wasn't this ALREADY POSTED BY KAT?!?
I stand corrected, it was Bruin. http://vboards.stratics.com/uo-siege-perilous/211931-passive-detect-changes.html /thread
I think the best option for a poll would be implement passive detect on Siege or don't. I really don't think dev's would make it a priority to "tailor make" a passive detect coding system to the Siege Perilous rule set.
As the last one got out of control, and this one is sure to do the same, but kelmo lettings us have plenty of leash, since we are siege, here we go again.
It should be added. But to only prevent minimum 75 skill to 100% stealth in medable armor.
Now some will complain, that more skill is needed, but to be honest, unless you have a lucky roll, and have a god piece of armor, major arties are medable, and you can make a pretty good suit outta barbed leather, imbued. So there is no reason for the mage property. There was at a time, but imbue has removed all of that need. Before you could get a 70s suit (with a few in the 80s for necro protection), but it required burning kits. Now burning kits is simply to save key resources. A mix of arties, and a few imbue pieces, gets you a full PvP suit, and if you PvM strict imbue will get you all you need and more. So it comes down to, everyone wears medable armor, and if they dont, then they are silly not to (unless they got a 5x max roll, and want that armor). So 75 is all that is needed.
Here is how I sit, and before we go there, I do have 75 stealth and 100 hide, though I quit using it long ago for a few reasons. One, im more powerful without it in PvM, and I havent had a spawn raided in over a year, and when I rarely PvP it doesnt suit my template (stealth mage? wtf precast hidden?)
I feel passive detect should be on seige, here is my logic. At 75/120 you are not considered "great, or gifted in your trade or skill" so you will make some errors. Sure you may not screw the start up, but you cant tell me at 75 stealth, you should be able to walk through a crowd of people (i know, this is seige, WTF is a crowd), and not make the slightest mistake, or sound that would alert someone. Hell at 75/120 you cant craft things everytime, so why be able to walk invisble to all every time?
So scale it. a 100 hide/120 stealth should never be detected passively, unless max skill in detect and tracking (since they may not have seen you right away, but they followed your footsteps for the last 7 screens, and all of a sudden they ended). A 100 hide, should not be passively detected, but a 75/120 stealth, when stealthing should be. Having detect boosts this, and having tracking ontop boosts it more. With a say 30-40% chance to passive detect a 100/120 with 100/100. Giving the advantage to the stealther for investing more points.
But the only reason to take stealth past 75 right now is for DS. The rest of the world can run 75 all day long, and maybe have the odd RC reveal you, inwhich you push hide again, and its game on (i have never been revealed by the same monster twice, ever).
This is silly. No other skill in the game gives you a realistic full benefit for so little points added. Even necro, which most run 105-110 necro, and 120 SS is more points, and the only downside is exorcism. Big deal, ghost cams are a thing of the past. Raids dont happen anymore.
So set a scale for it.
0 detect/track can passive reveal a 100/75 about 25% of the time
100 detect/0 track passive reveal a 100/75 about 60%
100/100 passive reveal 100/75 90%
100/100 passive reveal 100/100 50%
100/100 passive reveal 100/120 35%
Somewhat scale it according to points.
Now some will argue there are other ways to deal with stealthers. This is via area effect spells (cant cast in town), using area effect pots (cant throw in town, near mob, without getting attacked ontop of PvP). if you throw ninja in the mix, smoke bombs make it pretty much fool proof survival, sure you may not kill everyone, but you wont die very often, if at all (a good stealther should die, unless ganked beyond belief).
A prime example of this is Bo. Ask Bo, when the last time Bo died was? Bo is an assasian. Bo uses the element of suprise to get the advantage on Bos prey, and Bo buries his prey. Do you think Bo would survive as much as Bo does without hide, stealth, and ninja? The element of suprise lets Bo take out a lot of people at once. All shown templates, Bo would not have suprise, and with teamspeak/vent/etc Bos victims would know Bo was there before Bo knew they were there. Bo Doesnt die as often, because even in a 6 man gank, Bo can heal, and smoke bomb, sneak around and pick of 2 or 3 from the back, then go after the fronts. Stealth is part of an assasians template, but its at max skill. (best 3rd person I got)
Any assasain uses it to thier advantage, but not for defence strictly. For all out offence, and if it goes south, loop, flank, and go again. Anyone who uses the bare 75 for survial in PvP is abusing it. Plain and simple. You shouldnt be allowed to walk around a busy city in stealth, without investing points, and if your off in the woods, 75 is fine (covers crafters), unless and army goes by. In which case someone should see you eventually, unless your hidden, and not stealthed. So thiefs, and PvPers should invest it all, or risk getting detected passively. Isnt this siege, the land of risk? Or is 75 enough to prevent risk on your end, and allow you to go after people who invest in full templates at thier own risk?
Anyone who thinks stealth in its current state is balanced, is someone who enjoys a buffer of stealth. 1v1 A detector has no chance to kill a stealther. If you can honestly tell me when a 1v1 fielf fight vs stealther was won by someone putting 200 points to reveal about 60% of the time won, id like to hear how.
So without it, we are at gank town. And we all love getting ganked (well a select few do, but thats cause they mop the floor with 4 or more people alone).
And those who wanna say, what about the crafters. Who cares? Most crafters are not in a situation where they are in massive danger of being passive detected and killed. Once in a blue moon will someone run past a crafter stealthing back to town with a load of ore or logs, and decide to kill them cause they happened to passive detect, and didnt hit a hide macro quick enough, or were flushed out.
Lets be honest here, what do we have, like 20-30 people on siege at a time? Its a big world. So when PvP is in hot zones, passive reavel will be better for the shard. It prevents people from abusing the minimum stealth, which means most peoples fave templates are destroyed. When they look at dropping stuff to fit in 120 stealth, unless they are a DS assain, they decide in most cases its not worth it. Which means more shown templates, which means more PvP, which means more suits lost, which means more work for crafters, which means more people who log into seige to try it, see more people, and dont think its a ghost town.
I dare anyone to tell me why everyone running shown templates, or more shown templates would hurt siege? Any takers?
Thanks kelmo and petra for letting us have so much leach here on siege forums
Drax your last thread sucked, couldnt even get 2000 views before it was locked. Pfft, clearly this is a minor topic in the hardcore world of siege.
No one said it would hurt Siege. But when people are paying their own hard earned dollars to play a game...my guess would be they have the right to play any template or style they so desire and not one that you have identified as being for the greater good of Siege.
Any sort of random % is dumb. Either it happens or it doesn't.
The amount of coding and there for computing it would take to have a random percent change of something happening as often as passive detect would, will lag the server.
Why do people try so hard to change siege's ruleset? Siege was made, you play it for a reason. Why should Dev's cater siege's rules to every baby who can post on stratics.
Do you think the the animals on Galapagos asked the island to please make life easier cuz natural selection is far too hard on them...
If only the fittest survived, Draxous you sir would have passed long ago.
I had GM detect on my PvP tamer template. And I killed many "stealthers" 1v1. Just because you cant think up a template doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
And seriously dewd...TLDNR.
Why must you keep dragging this out? Rightly or wrongly, a clear majority of the Siege population don't want this and the argument has polarized many people's views on the subject such that they will never change their minds now.
Move on to something slightly different. From my cursory reading of the previous thread, it seemed that there was some consensus on a change to smoke bombs, be it a cool-down timer or a change to the success calculation. Try that one instead.
A thought know it will prolly never happen or anything but I would like it to be abit like SS is with ghosts that they can see them even if they are not shown to others...I would like that Detect + Tracking (so that you use almost as many points as the hide+stealth use) and then you`d be able to see em.
I know this will defenitley make sure people in pvp wont use much of hide/stealth and there by reducing the people actually using detect track, but most would have it stoned in case they need it.
To those that dont Pvp I can see the issue that they might be caugth offguard by a PK`r that uses those skills, but then again its quite a few skill points to put on and you`d still have to detect em before actually being able to kill em, but it would still demish their chance to survive greatly.
But again thats just me I think that would be slightly more fun
Seriously? You people need to learn how to play the game. If everyone spent half as much time learning how to use track/detect as they do whining/polling on the boards, there would be no need for these polls. rolleyes:
Why aren't we trying to fix what is broken, or changing things that will bring more people to Siege?
No, there are skills in game to combat stealthers but some players do not want to learn how to use these skills and prefer the easy option.
I would support improving the detect hidden skill to make it more effective so that people who have made the sacrifice of skill points on their template get the benefits. Stealth and hiding require skill points, detecting stealthers should also require skill points.
I still have to vote no considering the the poll, now had you made a poll about nerfing smoke bombs and taming then you may have gotten my vote. Cause stealth is only overpowered when combined with smoke bombs and taming, and even that doesnt bother me as I have no problem killing stealth tamers. Alone, the skill is nothing to be too worried about.
i see someone is looking for the easy button again. siege doesnt need passive detect lets try to get more important things fixed like imo faction prices, increased arty drops stuff like that. this poll is pointless
So since, 75/120 stealth gives you full advantage (except DS Damage), would you be all for letting blacksmiths at 75/120 never fail when making plate chests? With a slight hit to chance of exceptional?
This poll is about passive detect and whether people with 0 points in detect hidden should get the benefits of the skill. My answer is no. If you want my views on blacksmithing set up another poll.
Can you quote my post where it says Stealth should be removed? Or where I said players cant use it unless I approve? Feel free to use it, its a skill, and its here to stay (much like item based UO), but it needs a tweak.
How bout spending more time getting back to the way things used to be when you could die and go bank or go to your house and re equip and be back in the fight in 5 mins or less before all this faction artie crap. lets focus on bringing that fun back to the shard instead of worrying about something as silly as stealth. Too much time is lost when you have to buy back or negotiate buying your suit back if the killer will even sell it back at all. Stop being selfish and MAKE A REAL POLL!
I rarely play siege but i will still put my thoughts across on this.
I said yes. Its meant to be harder...stealth makes it easy!
Tailored to siege, that being, if you have snooping it negates the affect of passive detect.
That way, thieves still have there fun but the stealth tamers dont.
Animal Lore- 100
(insert any skill here)- 100
So even if the tamer had to put 100 points in snooping it would'nt really fix the taming/stealth problem. I could be off on the template points cause I have never thought about nor do I know anything about a stealth tamer so feel free to correct me on the points/template.
A clear majority of Siege players want the stealth problem addressed in some way shape or form.
Over 600hundred posts, 6000 views and multiple threads on this topic and you want to suggest sweeping this problem under the rug? Yeah, let's just pretend the giant neon colored elephant in the room doesn't exist.
Every single one of us that is hoping for a better Siege is relying on people like you and everyone else to talk to those you associate with. To help come up with a compromise that we all could be happy with.
The community is expecting those who run good gear to just toss that aside so things are more fair and for the greater good of this shard? Yet the community doesn't expect the same from stealthers?
Well if this community can't expect that from stealthers, then don't expect that from ANYONE ELSE. Kiss all of the changes good bye. Siege is working as intended.
Nobody is suggesting to delete the skills from the game. Nobody will lose their right to play any template or style they so desire if we make changes.
Exaggerate a little less please.
Seriously? You're telling the best players on this server they need to learn how to play this game?
You want to talk about improving things for new players?
What the hell are posts like this?
Oh look at the response this new guy gets.
Thats a good point, you could add a decreasing affect. If you have Stealing snooping and stealth at max you completely negate it. If you dont you get a reduced affect?
Sort of the opposite of DS.
Cheapsuit doesn't realize that you can't control a greater dragon with 100lore and 100taming.
You also cannot res your pet without vet. You also cannot use animal form properly at 50 ninjistu.
By adding snoop (or stealing) to the equation, you're forcing people to choose between trade-offs. Which is acceptable.
A stealth tamer could still be fully deadly using the current template. They would just need to start using items to make up the difference in 120 stealth (like shadow dancer leggings). People would actually start having to risk something (instead of the naked stealth tamer crap we see right now.)
You're suggesting we need to max 4 skills ( Hiding / Stealth / Snooping / Stealing ) to negate the effects of zero points invested in a skill?
This game is about choices. Some people choose to have positive karma, and the Chivalry Spell is enhanced, some prefer to have negative karma, and Necromancy benefits. Some prefer to be blue for the ability to use the virtues and have guard zone protection, others prefer to be red, and have the benefit of area effect spells automatically attacking blues in stealth, at the cost of no guard zone protection, limited wandering healers, and not being able to use the virtues. Some people prefer to be crafters, some choose to be battle hardened warriors, who meet others on the battlefield. Some prefer a mixture of both, and some prefer planting seeds, fishing, and other resource gathering activities.
Whatever your choice of gameplay style, it all boils down to how you spend your points on your avatar. If you want to play detective, you should invest in Detect, tracking, and forensics. If you want to be a ninja, you should invest in hiding and stealth, though it will weaken your offense, you gain the much needed element of suprise ( as alot of the spells in Ninjitsu book require you to be in stealth mode ). If you want to hunt down the stealthers, you need to make a choice. Invest the points to reveal them, costing you some offensive power, or find other methods to reveal them. You cannot have it both ways with free points in a skill without the investment.
Nope. 100hiding and 120stealth will work just fine.
If you don't want to invest all the points in stealth because you're a thief with a tight template, then those who have snooping (and/or stealing maybe?) will be allowed to use 100hiding and 80stealth to properly stealth so they can have more freedom with their skill point intensive templates.
Acceptable huh? So you admit this poll is pointless?
Choose between your trade offs, max offensive power or detect/tracking.
Nope. Hide/stealth is over powered and Detect/tracking doesn't counter stealthers effectively.
Why are you still trying to derail progress? Let me remind you of the point of this thread:
Contribute something positive to the betterment of this community and shard or STFU.
Unless the timer is removed from Detect, it is pretty much useless against Hiding.
I wasn't suggesting you need to max 4 skills no, but lets be honest, most "real" stealth templates are going to invest at least 2 of those skills.
Plus, only elves gain Passive detect and its only 40%.
Another cry thread. Sorry I cannot be here 24/7 to dry each and every tear for you. If you like passive detect so much, go play in Trammel, perhaps that would be doing something positive for the betterment of the shard. See what I did there? *wipes another tear from BR's eye*
I am going to STFU now and do something for the betterment of the shard... I am logging in.
Personally I don't have an opinion on stealth. I don't feel qualified to give one. Most of "the people I associate with" seem to have no opinion either. I am saying that passive detect issue has the shard hopelessly divided and you should concentrate on something else, like smoke bombs.
As for your throwing the toys out of the pram routine, while I and many others have expressed views on faction, faction items or other things, I'm not pushing for any changes here because it is something that would be equally unpopular with a good portion of the community. Further, the changes to things like faction items were suggestions at trying to assist your side of the player base (PvPers) to get more action going by levelling the playing field a bit.
But the sad truth is that the Devs have no intention of giving us any time. Furthermore, even if your stealth change went in it would almost certainly do little to revive Siege. The population has reached the tipping point where there are too few players to encourage new players (hardly any vendors, no PvP action, etc) and returning players find a dead shard. In all probability, only a concerted effort by the Devs in making a few changes and promoting Siege has any hope of bringing it back from the brink.
Best players? Nah, in my opinion "best players" would not be the ones that are constantly whining when things get the slightest bit challenging.
Broken? Everything works just fine for me, maybe its just broken for you?
Here's an idea. Why don't you make a stealth template? You could get a first hand look at how "broken" track/detect really is.
Forgive me in advance for chopping up your reply.
My focus is getting the stealth problem addressed. There are many ways to handle it, but the point is to get it handled.
Smoke bombs are part of the issue. Detect having the same timer as hiding is part of the issue. Being able to instantly stealth after hiding is part of the issue. Being able to have the full benefits of a skill without having all the skill points of that skill is also an issue.
Which ever way the community wants to attack the problem doesn't matter.
The aim of these discussions is to figure it out. You may recall that this very same thing used to happen to all the discussions on boosting monster loot. Go look through the archives and you will see the same players stifling progress (like Kat and company) saying that Siege doesn't need better access to cursed or regular artifacts for a better, more level playing field. You will also see the same players (like me) pushing better loot drops.
Irony at it's finest.
You're looking at it from the wrong lens. We use the good gear regardless of any suggested changes. We're expected to give up what we currently enjoy to make this game better for other players? But stealthers shouldn't expected to do the same thing we're asked to?
All of the suggested changes are suggestions at trying to assist a beaten down portion of the playerbase. Regarding stealthers - the counter templates deserve this change. Regarding factions - the non-elite deserve the option for fun participation. Regarding monster loot - non-faction players deserve the option to compete on a reasonable playing field. Regarding crafters - they deserve reasonable access to the materials they use to craft.
There is a reason the low population that is left on Siege is 80% stealthers. Where are all the players who enjoy playing other templates? Have the few remaining had to adapt and begrudgingly play a stealther? Have the rest who would otherwise be here up and left in disgust?
Everyone deserves a slice of this pie if anyone is to get a piece of it. If you think it's acceptable to leave anyone out of making this game fair.. then no one deserves to experience fair.
Everyone can enjoy the brokenness together.
There is a chance we will get the fixes we ask for. The sad truth is, whenever we ask for changes... they are always what the entire majority wants, but not necessarily what the shard needs.
Monster loot has been an issue since AoS, but it's now what...? 8 years later that we're finally realizing it?
Who here really thinks personal bless deeds would have been an issue if crafters had better access to runic kits to make decent suits. If artifacts dropped at a reasonable rate so that it wasn't a big deal if someone was running around with an extra blessed artifact because everyone was running around with multiple artifacts (players were EARNING in doom.) Who here really thinks players would have been using [blessed] bunny ears or fire pants if they had reasonable access to items that were better?
But no one listened when the experts in this game spoke up. It took losing 75% of the population before people supported fixing something that wasn't even REALLY the problem.
The freaking incompetent in this community are what has held this shard back time and time again. Players wishing we'd all continue playing the way people did in 1999 in GM armor even though UO had long ago evolved so far away from that... it's impossible to.
You know what's funny. Of all these changes being talked about, no one even mentions the zoos or library turn ins. The items like mace and shield glasses that are damn near impossible to get (because the zoos are made for prodo, just like monster loot drops are.) We can't talk about private housing because I'm probably the only person here who knows that Siege had special rules for housing before AoS. Everyone else ****ing left! We can't talk about instanced dungeons because some people believe their entitled to at least a small slice of trammel.
So let me remind everyone of what the PATHETIC list of changes looks like:
1. Lower Faction Silver Costs
2. Boosting Monster Loot
3. Addressing the stealth problem
4. Boosting drops for crafting ingredients (peerless/imbuing)
5. Addressing the faction rune problem
6. Remove blessings on left over [Blessed] Event items
There is SO MUCH broken on this shard, that we have to ask for minor changes to be made to a FEW of our problems. Instanced dungeons, zoo/library rewards, housing rules, monster loot, faction prices, no passive detect abuse, faction runestones, low crafter resources, no treasures of tokuno, on and on and on.
Yet we can only ask for a couple of them fixed in the most simple way because asking for everything to be fixed properly is asking too much of our developers.
We have experts breaking down the problems for everyone to see and come together on reasonable fixes. And yet we have incompetent doofs standing in the way of fixing them.
The same incompetent doofs that stood in the way of fixing monster loot years ago, now stand in the way of fixing the other things that need fixing.
This community kills itself.
If everything isn't pushed to be fixed with this "big fix", nothing will be pushed to be fixed. Siege is working as intended... it's intended to be broken.
So why are you crying about making stealth slightly more challenging?
Everything works just fine for you because you're a stealther. A stealther who counters stealthers. Gee, why on earth would you want things to be more fair for everyone else when you're sitting so pretty.
Thank you for showing everyone how broken things are.
People play UO for entertainment. If 80% are stealthers that's what they enjoy doing. It would seem a suicidal business plan for the devs to start messing around with something that is successful on Siege, to appease the other 20% because they come crying on a forum.
Learn to use the skills to counter Stealth. We are tired of YOUR crying.
BFF = biggest collective group of legendary crybabies this shard has ever seen! Whaaaaah, nerf stealthers, Whaaaaaah, nerf smoke bombs, Whaaaaaaah, make it so people can't run in the house, Whaaaaaaah, we were outnumbered, Whaaaaaaaah why you gotta use pets, Whaaaaaaaah, nerf tamers, Whaaaaah nerf pet balls and make tamers use their siege bless to bless their pets, Whaaaaaah nerf dismounters, Whaaaaaah, I don't wanna farm, Whaaaaaaaaah, make my armor cheaper! Whaaaaaah, whaaaaaaah, whaaaaaaah!!!
If you're the best pvper's on the shard, you shouldn't need so much help from the devs.
People who don't want passive detect are a minority, get over it.
I suport this post 100%
Ole Cheapy had the best point in this thread, but it was glossed over. Unfortunatly the problem can not be solved so easy. Stealth is not the probem. I have had stealth on my template since before some of you were on Siege, or maybe even played UO. I still have stealth, but I cannot use a smoke bomb(ninja skill), turn into a mouse, rat, cat, dog..elephant(ninja skill), use bok's, I think that is the term(ninja skill)..see the theme here.
Stealth was not a problem before the ninja skill came along. It took skill to get away from a group or person with regular stealth. Now one can pop a smoke bomb and scoot away in the form of some rodent or house pet--that is not feature of stealth, it a feature of the ninja skill.
If people us detect corectly, my stealth(non-ninja) is somewhat easy to combat...I wish I could pop smoke and scurry away.
I also agree with Arden, passive detect has no place on this server, if i have skill to avoid someone, that person should need skill to find me, not just get a good "dice" roll.
All of these polls, threads and such should be about the ninja skill. Not many people ran stealth on Siege before the ninja skill came about...take that to thought.
That's quite a stretch to say 80% of the stealthers enjoy it. And successful? LOL! A dwindling population and playerbase that is playing other servers and other versions of UO doesn't exactly sound all that successful.
Seems a suicidal business plan for the devs to continue Siege on it's current course.
Nice try and twisting things. Everyone knows the population is at an all time low and it's time this server became more appealing to everyone, especially potential new players.
So let's check out how new players feel:
Oh look at the response this new guy gets.
Nope sorry. Addressing stealth is the hottest topic on these forums. Safe to say that something will be done about it.
UO evolved Fel...
I was here back then and I can tell you a lot of people used stealth then too. The shadowclan orcs especially were good at using it.
We had a thread dedicated to making detect hidden effective at countering stealthers.
The majority of this community didn't want to give those who dedicate skill points in detect/tracking the ability to properly counter stealthers.
Guess who were some who voted against fixing detect hidden? Yep, Arden. A guy who doesn't even have an active UO account.
Good post, but again... the same few people (kat and company) don't want anything fixed unless there's something in it for them.
Sad, but true.
Lol funny but true.
Ninja compounds the issue with stealth. Id be fine with leaving 100% stealth ability at 75 skill. And even consider not having passive detect, if they made 100 detect, work 100% of the time on stealthers under 110 skill points, and tapered it from there. And also if they made it so you could not pop a smoke bomb for 5s after detection, and no able to rehide (even if you have completed a skill timer) for 10s. That wouldnt really hurt any of the PvMers (dont apply it to monster reveal), crafters, etc. Only thing is if a PK had detect, then they are kinda hooped. But thats fair IMO.
Pot + Kettle = Draxous
That's pretty funny considering you MIGHT have a active account but only log into SP once a month...even people that was in your guild can verify that...not to mention when you was the guildleader of ^S^ how long did that last for till Forsaken had to pick up the slack ( 3 weeks tops??) of you never being on and become guildleader...
You have always worried more about ATL and even played ATL more to my understanding so why are you so worried about what happens on SP?
Define "minority" for me please, then look at the poll results...