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Adverse effects of the new petball changes...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Guest, Mar 8, 2008.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Pet Ball Changes:
    # Pet summoning balls should unhide the summoner when attempting to summon her pet.
    # Pet summoning balls should have a couple second casting animation with the chance to disrupt like other spellcasting.
    # Pet summoning balls should have a reuse delay of 15 seconds.
    # Pet summoning balls cannot be used while in animal form.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Has the team considered the effect that this will have on a player that's been dismounted? Currently the best (and really only) action to take after being dismounted is to wait a few seconds, then summon in a mount and get on it. This is a perfectly fair and well balanced maneuver for a few reasons: You have several seconds to wait to summon, the pet can be attacked if you don't dismount fast enough, if you continue to fight the person (i.e. you're not being ganked) they can simply re-dismount you and kill the mount.

    With the new changes, however, this will become impossible, making dismount even stronger then it is now. The players do NOT want a stronger dismount, it's already abused on many levels. The first and fourth changes are fine, and even the third I could live with, but please don't put in the second change, it's certain death for anybody that is attacked by a group using a dismount archer or the bola-tele exploit. :/
     
  2. Babble

    Babble Guest

    On the other side, should a group not have a good chance on killing someone?
     
  3. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    Guess we'll adapt and use ethies or a charger of the fallen in that case.
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The solution would be to deal with dismount as well.
     
  5. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    All the petball changes are good cept for one, the "several" summoning time.

    Simply make pet ball summoning time scale based on the control slot of the pet.
    1 slot = 0.5 second summoning
    2 slots = 1 seconds
    5 slots = 2.5 second summoning time.
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I do think that the very least they could do is fix ethy remount times this to me would really help balance the pet ball changes with dismount taken into account.

    Then again I have never had any problems with dismount. There are plenty of things you can do to buy enough time to mount your ethy if you know what your doing. I do it all the time when I get dismounted if another dexxer tried to hit me I simply disarm them and remount the time it takes them to get a weapon back in their hand to hit me again is enough. If a mage is attacking I just hit them with stuff that is going to force them to back up for a moment while I remount simple.

    Sure there are times your going to be "ganked" by getting hit with dismount then several people are going to attack you at one time but there is no shame in getting killed 3+v1 while your dismounted. And that will always happen in this game and cannot be balanced.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    On the other side, should a group not have a good chance on killing someone?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sure, they should have a chance, but only if they're actually better then the one person. If I'm better then two other people combbined, I should be able to kill them. It's unfair that simply because one of them is using the bola-tele exploit, or one is an archer using a heavy, that they're then able to kill me.

    Also consider the scenario where you're simply running through a dungeon, doing your own thing, and you come across a group of reds. Shouldn't you have a fair chance of escape?

    So you see it's the reverse that is the problem, unskilled masses are able to kill highly-skilled solo players simply by dismounting (and the player now having no chance to remount).
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Guess we'll adapt and use ethies or a charger of the fallen in that case.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Obviously this is an absurd comment. The whole problem is the delay. It's impossible to currently use an ethy or charger while being attacked, and it will now be impossible to summon in a pet mount while being attacked, thus making dismount = death.
     
  9. <blockquote><hr>

    The solution would be to deal with dismount as well.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree... dismount definitely needs a balance pass. For starters, being able to dismount from invis is flat out asinine.

    It's not a popular opinion, but I think mounted combat isn't particularly balanceable, because it lets some people run faster than others and it makes run speed MUCH more important than actual skill.

    I'm against mounted combat...

    Now... I realize mounted combat is a part of UO, so the solution probably lies in giving unmounted players some kind of benefit that mounted players don't have. Perhaps a cleverly-designed item could help defend against dismount ganks. Who knows...

    So far the closest thing to a viable defense against a dismount gank is an invis pot + ethy mount. There are about a dozen ways to counter it, so I don't consider it a viable counter.

    The only other counter is to avoid getting dismounted in the first place. Dismount doesn't have a long range (and shouldn't), so you can just use the range to counter it. This all goes out the window when your dismounter is invisible. Perhaps a counter would be a summon that searches for stealthers... I use revenants on visible dismounters to make them burn their dismount on my revenant. You can't target them when they're invis, but perhaps there could be a special summon that seeks out invisible players (like those things in khaldun). The invis finder could be a really light hitting summon who's primary function is to reveal people. It could be a familiar...
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    All the petball changes are good cept for one, the "several" summoning time.

    Simply make pet ball summoning time scale based on the control slot of the pet.
    1 slot = 0.5 second summoning
    2 slots = 1 seconds
    5 slots = 2.5 second summoning time.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I very much like this idea. I hope the team gives it a good look, in fact I would encourage people to ensure that somebody on teh team sees it. (Does anyone know if they even read the boards on the weekend)?
     
  11. Crap....I don't know why I didn't even think of this, but it's a good point.

    Dismount is rather over-powered as it is.

    Oh and yes, they do read the boards on the weekend, at least sometimes. I think Jeremy, for obvious reasons the one who reads the boards most often, said she was gonna be away for several days though.

    -Galen's player
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    How about a delay only in summoning non-mountable pets?
     
  13. I read elsewhere that they are putting through a change to ethys to where they will only have a 3 second summon time instead of 5.

    Now that's interesting huh? That may balance out the preference to summon a pet off of a ball if you're using magery or carry invis pots (invis and get on ethy before EQ/meteor swarm can be completed in the field).
     
  14. 3 seconds is still too long to try and mount if more than one person is attacking you. You also cannot do it if you are strangled (very likely) or bleeding.
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    This is certainly a case of the cure being way worse than the disease.
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Simply make pet ball summoning time scale based on the control slot of the pet.
    1 slot = 0.5 second summoning
    2 slots = 1 seconds
    5 slots = 2.5 second summoning time.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You really don't like the super dragons do you huh? What happened to 3 slot pets? started off with a half second delay between 1 and 2 slot pets but when it came to the diference between 2 and 5 slot pets you jumped a whole 1.5 seconds additional. I like all the changes to the pet ball except the delay. I am not a PvPer so why should these changes effect me?
     
  17. uh....

    1 slot = .5
    2 slot = 1
    3 slot = 1.5
    4 slot = 2
    5 slot = 2.5

    ...

    Notice a trend?
     
  18. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    <blockquote><hr>



    You really don't like the super dragons do you huh? What happened to 3 slot pets? started off with a half second delay between 1 and 2 slot pets but when it came to the diference between 2 and 5 slot pets you jumped a whole 1.5 seconds additional. I like all the changes to the pet ball except the delay. I am not a PvPer so why should these changes effect me?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It's 0.5 second summoning time per control slot...
    If they have this the other petball changes dont have to be introduce and PvM tamers and pack instinct tamers using packs wont be hindered by the 15 second reuse time per pet. While eliminating stealth dismount ninja form petball super dragon/mare+beetle/2x kitsuni PvP+Pet+Item

    If they make petballs scaled summoning delay will not affect any PvM'rs but I am sure it will upset many cheesy stealth dismount ninja tamers which is their only way for them to compete. Again PvP means Player vs PLayer, not Player versus Player+Overpowered Pet+Abusive Item.
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Again PvP means Player vs PLayer, not Player versus Player+Overpowered Pet+Abusive Item.

    [/ QUOTE ] If was a PvPer then what is the difference if I use a pet or a couple of pets to fight you instead of using a sword or some other kind of weapon? Mages use spells to attack, dexxers use swords or some other kind of weapon, Tamers use pets. Should there be a delay when you try to equip a weapon? I like these changes...

    <blockquote><hr>

    Pet summoning balls should unhide the summoner when attempting to summon her pet.
    Pet summoning balls should have a couple second casting animation with the chance to disrupt like other spellcasting.
    Pet summoning balls cannot be used while in animal form.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Those changes right there will either stop completely the template you mentioned earlier about the stealth ninja tamer without hurting the PvMer that I am.
     
  20. <blockquote><hr>

    If was a PvPer then what is the difference if I use a pet or a couple of pets to fight you instead of using a sword or some other kind of weapon?

    [/ QUOTE ]
    About 900 hp, 575 str and 10? base damage on what a player can have.

    ...The changes are fine and solve the issue.
     
  21. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Governor Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

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    How about simply having no summoning time for pets that fit both these criteria (not just one or the other).

    1. Takes 1 control slot.
    2. Is ridable.

    Everythign else would retain the 2 second, interruptable summoning time.

    Then, make the delays after a summons function as follows:
    15 seconds+(control slots of animal) seconds, - (maximum number of stable slots for summoner) seconds.

    So, a tamer with 14 stable slots would have a delay of 15+x-14; or a minimum of 2 seconds (plus the 2 seconds, for a non-mount type), for a 1 slot creature, 6+2(ball use time) seconds for resummoning a greater dragon to their side.

    This would allow those people who have Ostard packs to be able to still summon their entire flock quickly (could get the entire flock to them in about 12 - 15 seconds), as the only side-effect. One could do it with a couple other pets, but those pets don't have pack instinct, and are less of an issue.

    If that's still too fast, make the subtraction part of the formula "stable slots/2" (which might still be needed if our pleas for more stable slots be granted).

    That would give about a 9-14 second delay, after the first ball use, depending on pet size.
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    On the other side, should a group not have a good chance on killing someone?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sure, they should have a chance, but only if they're actually better then the one person. If I'm better then two other people combbined, I should be able to kill them.

    [/ QUOTE ]If you are actually better than them, you should be able to kill them even if you are on foot.
     
  23. Nerf-Herder

    Nerf-Herder Guest

    The changes are awesome. It's about frikkin time that players have more balls than their pets do.
     
  24. Different delays for different pets is needlessly complicated, which makes the code harder to support. I don't like bugs, so naturally I think it's a bad idea.
     
  25. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    Different delays for different pets is needlessly complicated, which makes the code harder to support. I don't like bugs, so naturally I think it's a bad idea.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    This seems like a rather straightforward equation to me, despite their track-record for introducing bugs, I think they can handle this. And while I think the stable number equation listed above would make an interesting addition, it's probably not as important as the main "control slots = summon time" equation would be.

    <blockquote><hr>

    If you are actually better than them, you should be able to kill them even if you are on foot.

    [/ QUOTE ] Obviously you do not PvP.
     
  26. <blockquote><hr>

    The solution would be to deal with dismount as well.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    ranged dismount with archery weapons is the only issue in PvP

    simply double clicking any mounted character on screen is not an accomplishment and it takes little to no effort to execute.

    Dismount should be removed from Archery... there's a reason why it's the fan favorite of so many people... it gives you so many advantages over every other class of melee skill, with quite literally no draw backs.

    There should be limits to that skill for it's unique property of being able to damage opponents at a range.

    If someone manages to run (on foot) all the way up to someone and dismount them... then that was a tactical, strategic and impressive maneuver which deserves the advantages performing that move brings.
     
  27. Widowtaker

    Widowtaker Guest

    I will gladly give up dismount for archers, as soon as it is replaced with a disarm and/or a silence special.
     
  28. Voodoo Bad Mojo

    Voodoo Bad Mojo Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend 4H

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    ive pvped with a tamer for years upon years upon years.
    and ive never used a pet ball.

    your talking about only 1 or 2 templates that need to use this tactic to play.

    for all i care make the delay 30 seconds, heck make it 10 minutes.

    its not going to effect the PVM tamer any, cause even if he does use a pet ball its just to pull a pet in so he can start farming.

    why argue about .5 of a second.
    just put a 10 minute cap on it and be done with it.

    and to the person who is pancakes about dismounting..... try playing on a slow connection. dismounting is the only way some people can play in pvp, heck, try playing speedhackers (ya there are NONE of those around) one they are on foot they are at least killable.

    and seriouslly, if you cant outrun any pet on foot you probablly shouldnt be in fel in the first place. especially a rune beetle or a dragon.
    those beasties are slower the the 2nd coming.

    i went toe to toe with another red tamer.
    both of us had a rune beetle / mare.
    we where both allready on foot cause it was in the heat of a battle.
    he put his pets on me, i put mine on him, i turned and ran the opposite direction, flanked over a screen out and looped back in.... alive.
    he, on the other hand, didnt run, and was dead when i arrived back on screen.
    lesson: move your feet. pets can easilly be outrun in even one screen.
    and im pinging like 100-200 constanlly and i can outrun them.
     
  29. <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>


    All the petball changes are good cept for one, the "several" summoning time.

    Simply make pet ball summoning time scale based on the control slot of the pet.
    1 slot = 0.5 second summoning
    2 slots = 1 seconds
    5 slots = 2.5 second summoning time.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I very much like this idea. I hope the team gives it a good look, in fact I would encourage people to ensure that somebody on teh team sees it. (Does anyone know if they even read the boards on the weekend)?

    [/ QUOTE ]


    this idea would be PERFECT, it would solve the problem without nerfing pvm tamers, plus you could see a pvp tamer summoning, lets say a superdragon, and still have a chance to interrupt or run away

    great idea
     
  30. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    That's the main idea of my suggested petball change.

    -To eliminate stupid petball pvp
    -Minimal impact on PvMers

    1. Scaled petball summoning time 0.5sec or two ticks per control slot.
    2. Petballs cannot be used in animal form.
    3. Petball should reveal the user when used (like a spell casting)

    By removing the 15sec reuse time, the PvMers using 5 ozzys or anyother packs wont have to be punished by the reuse time. ANY tamers can get all their pets in 2.5 seconds TOPS. 5 ozzys or 1 superdragon whatever. While the petball abusing PvP+Pet+Item'ers will take a nerf.
     
  31. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Or, simply deal with the problem of dismounting by (for example) changing the archery dismount to another special. Or shortening the ethy summon time.

    I don't use pet balls, but at the same time, I think we should keep systems as simple as possible.

    Also, if dismount is a problem, dismount is what needs fixing. It's like pet AI, some folks wanted pet balls to patch up the issue, but fixing the core problem makes more sense.

    Wenchy
     
  32. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Told you before to leave ARCHERY alone it's been nerfed enough..... Leave my dismount alone since I can't disarm..... NOR Bleed I need somthing ..... at least I can slow you down.
     
  33. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Don't forget that archery dismount is not the only problem. People using bolas and teleport together is actually more of a problem.
     
  34. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Guess we'll adapt and use ethies or a charger of the fallen in that case.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I have an 8 yr vet acct. I refuse to use my ethereals in pvp because of the stupid disrupt on remounting. All the pet ball changes are fine except for the disrupt. If you're dismounted, changes are you're getting ganked, with the disrupt you won't have a chance anymore.
     
  35. <blockquote><hr>

    Told you before to leave ARCHERY alone it's been nerfed enough..... Leave my dismount alone since I can't disarm..... NOR Bleed I need somthing ..... at least I can slow you down.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    wait a minute Willa, youre saying leave dismount alone because you cant bleed or disarm when Wenchkin suggested this:


    <blockquote><hr>


    Or, simply deal with the problem of dismounting by (for example) changing the archery dismount to another special


    [/ QUOTE ]


    I wouldnt mind trading dismount by bow to any other special(havent really thought hard)
    Also, I like Wenchies other idea


    <blockquote><hr>


    Or shortening the ethy summon time


    [/ QUOTE ]

    maybe test 2 seconds to mount ethy?
     
  36. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    I wouldnt mind if they finally fix dismount on archery or trade it with some other specials.
    I play an archer sometimes, if archers to have access to disarm, with moving shot it's zero skill automatic kill everytime I get in disarm. If Hxbow had disarm, I would just hit conc weapon divine fury, disarm shot, moving shot and someone will die because his zero defense against my shots and I can do it on a full run.

    I have an fencing archer, I made it just so I can disarm. Go ahead and try it if you have a soulstone. Run in and disarm, swap weapon instantly, you will get two free moving shots that are GUARENTEED to hit even if your target runs. It's really easy to play and there's no escape.

    Because the ranged nature of archery weapons many lasting effect specials (bleed/disarm/dismount) can be out of control. Mages cannot gheal if they are bled, and mini heal heals for an average of 11hp, archers with good weapon deals upward well-over 35 dmg per shot, RANGED and on a FULL RUN.

    I dont know how are they going to fix archery, but dismount/disarm shouldnt exist on archery weapons, bleed is marginal however.