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[Bushido] AI or LS

Discussion in 'UO Warrior' started by NuSair, Jun 10, 2010.

  1. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    If you have a choice, it is better to use Armor Ignore or Lightning Strike?
     
  2. Arcades

    Arcades Sage
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    Depends on what you fight...monsters with low resists, LS is going to do more damage cuz chance at crits, but something with really high resists, your normal hits and LS wont do much, crits will do a lot, but AIs will be more consistent over time for damage if u can afford the mana it takes.
     
  3. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    Mana isn't an issue, which is why one of the reasons I was asking.
     
  4. Zalan

    Zalan Babbling Loonie
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    PvM or PvP? Do you have 45 HCI? If PvM are you fighting a creature with high Wrestling?

    PvM LS:
    - Gives your 45 HCI if your gargoyle it gives 50
    - At 120 you have a 1 in 5 chances for a critical. Critical in General will be more than armor ignore

    PvP LS:
    - Gives you a 45 HCI if your gargoyle its gives 50
    - At 120 a 1 in 5 Chances for the same damage as armor ignore

    PvM Armor Ignor:
    - Scores damage as direcet at 100%
    - In PvP it is capped at 35 damage

    Conclusion:
    If you have the maxed HCI on your character & no mana problems armor ignore PvM will give you a more sustained DPS. LS will give you HCI, & spiked damage PvM wise. Hands down armor ignore with 45 HCI is better in PvP in general.
     
  5. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    Mostly PvM-

    The overall reason I am asking is because I am redoing my ABC's suit.

    I was just considering in the building of it, what is more effective, AI or LS.

    Why would high wrestling matter? (excuse me if I sound like a dumbass asking that)
     
  6. Zalan

    Zalan Babbling Loonie
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    Monster use wrestling skill vrs your archery skill to determine if you hit or not. Say your 110 archery & the monster is 130 wrestling. Your going to hit the monster alot less. If you have HCI or LS your chances to hit are higher.
     
  7. I was under the impression (in PvM at least) they're the same damage. A critical is a chance to ignore the targets resists. As you can AI endlessly (mana allowing), and the criticals from LS are 1 in 5 (or 1 in 6), as long as you could sustain the mana AI would always be better. You always get some fluctuation because base damage is a range rather than flat number but your AI should be the same as the highest critical you can do.

    I may be completely wrong on that though hehe, if not idk, but AI seems better to me, I've only started using wammys recently but now know why some other people I knew prefered it over their sampire (even when with all other pros/cons considered sampires come out on top).

    The 50 HCI from LS doesn't overcap what you can have from items.
     
  8. Death Adder

    Death Adder Guest

    IIRC LS critical delivers 100% damage while AI delivers 90% damage.
     
  9. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    that is not true, I use both (AI till the I finish the mana and then LS), and both do the same damage. The only true advantage in using LS (excluding the HCI) is the fact that is much cheaper in mana cost. AI will double the mana cost at every shot, so if you dont leech (cause RNG), you cant do another.
     
  10. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    The 90% of your maximum weapon damage can often overlap the 100% of your minimum damage.

    But there's definitely a difference.
     
  11. Garm The Green

    Garm The Green Lore Master
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    Yup.

    My answer would be both, unless you have infinite mana. Be wary of wraith form, as your target may run out of mana that you leech from them, unlike standard HML.

    Soloing mephist, i get crits of 219, but AI of ~200.

    AI is better if you can a) hit the target without the HCI benefit of LS and b) manage the mana.

    AI does seem to do about 90% the damage of a LS crit.

    I tend to AI, LS, AI, LS, AI, LS...maybe with some other AIs thrown in to manage mana but also give decent damage.

    AI is 100% chance to do 90% damage
    LS crit is 1/5 chance to do 100% damage

    in theory over 5 hits:
    AI gives 5 AI at 450% damage at massive mana cost (25, 50, 25, 50, 25 = 175 mana)
    LS gives 1 crit at 100 damage for low mana cost (5x5 = 25 mana)
    Say LS non crits strike for 30% (assume a resist of 70) a critical 4x30 = 120% so total LS damage is 120+100 = 220%

    LS does 49% average damage of AI for 14% the mana.

    if you switch between LS and AI over 10 hits:
    (ls, ai, ls, ai, ls, ai, ls, ai, ls, ai) 5 ls 5 ai
    mana is 5, 25, 5, 25, 5, 25, 5, 25 5, 25 = 150
    damage is 450 + 220 = 770
    to match 5 hit original figures half all totals

    Mana is 75, damage is 385%

    Alternating LS and AI costs 43% mana and gives 86% damage output compared to just using AI. For me this is the best match of damage/cost.


    NB: disclaimer - obviously this is very rough and doesnt account for damage by non critical LS strikes differing dependant on resists, or of varying mana costs for ai/ls due to LMC/skills reducing special move costs. That said it's a good guide to go by if you like seeing the numbers, rather than feeling out the experience whilst playing.


    is reference to AI:
    "Armor Ignore - This special move allows ....For this attack, the defender has 0 Physical Resistance, but the attack only does 90% normal damage"

    http://uo.stratics.com/content/arms-armor/specialmoves.php
     
  12. Weird I find the opposite true, my AI is nearly always more than LS crits.
     
  13. Garm The Green

    Garm The Green Lore Master
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    Dude, that can't be....
     
  14. Garm The Green

    Garm The Green Lore Master
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    and you totally know your stuff.
    can you test this?
     
  15. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    Why don't you just use both???

    LS, LS, AI, AI, LS, LS, AI, AI ????
     
  16. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    I could, but if one was that much better than the other, I was wanting to try to use it exclusively.

    Before, I just used LS exclusively, but I've been looking into AI recently and was wanting opinions of people that might have tested it.
     
  17. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    don't you have to switch out periodically? I know three AI's ina row start racking up some major mana usage.

    I always did two AIs, two LSs to recover mana, then back to two AIs
     
  18. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    Honestly, and I know this is going to make me seem like such a n00b, but I never really used AI until recently AT ALL. I always used LS.

    With my thrower I noticed I was able to spam AI and not use LS at all.....
     
  19. AI's on Navrey
    216 228 204 252 228 261 249 237 213 237 237 237 225 249 261 213 237 225 261 237

    Criticals on the same Navrey (with EOO & Consecrate thrown in just in case)
    261 231 207 219 207 207 243 219 207 219

    (... I did 3 Navreys but 2 of them were inconsistent results because of people Corpse Skining half way through and a Hiryu.)
     
  20. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    What weapon are you using to AI navrey? Your damage is much greater than mine. It must be a combo of your weapon hitting harder, more tactics, more anatomy, and more strength. My DI is capped at 100 and I'm at the 300% cap with a Spider slayer. Just trying to be as effective as possible.

    -OBSIDIAN-
     
  21. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    Ah, ok. It's your thrower. Thx for the clarification.

    -OBSIDIAN-
     
  22. Arcades

    Arcades Sage
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    If you're not worried about mana, than AI all the way will give you the highest damage output. However, if u're not a wraith form warrior hitting a monster without a limitless mana pool, than I suggest alternating in this fashion: LS, LS, AI, LS, LS, AI. Assuming you are swing at 1.25/sec so that you'll be below the 3sec double-mana cost for chained AIs, and you still have chances at criticals. Dont forget if you have bushido/parry, to counterstrike as soon as it wears out. Thats the reason I have FC/FCR on my sampire, cuz the chances it doing double crits/AIs is much higher the quicker u can recast it.
     
  23. Garm The Green

    Garm The Green Lore Master
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    Truely bizarre.

    Cheers dude, no idea what's going on there - i always have AI 10% lower damage...

    Maybe it's a throwing thing (bug)?

    Lucky man!
     
  24. NickyDishes

    NickyDishes Guest

    .....AI damage is capped.....matter of fact all damage is capped except spell damage in pvm....there is no way your hitting navery more with AI than LS it's just not possible
     
  25. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Reduced/Increased resists will have no bearing on either set of data. Thy both do direct damage.
     
  26. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Average for the AIs is 223
    Average for the Criticals is 222

    Lowest reported number is from AI which is 204, but not much lower.

    I tested some with a composite bow.
    Base Damage was 41-54
    and got the max damage possible for me with my AI:
    54 max base damage x 3 = 162
    oddly also got a number lower than what should be possible:
    118, but minimum 41 x 3 = 123, so it seems it was reduced.

    Which means need to collect more data to figure out how this is working.

    Have had multiple 118s now, and one 110, which is 90% of 123, which is what the minimum would have been when doing 100% damage.

    ... and as I'm testing more im thinking the 162 earlier was a mistake of some sort, since the max im receiving now is 145 (=54x3x0.9)
     
  27. If AI is 90% then how do you explain both being able to do the same highest damage of 261?

    &

    How do you explain that even if you took the lowest 10 AI's their average is still higher than the 10 crits?
     
  28. No one was at Navrey so I did the Slasher instead. My highest AI was 270. The highest LS I got was 255.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  29. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    I don't. I think there's a bug in here somewhere.
    I've received data that pointed to 90% damage consistently (Shadow Wyrms).
    At other times it seemed that I was doing full damage.

    Something else that's strange. You're doing 270 damage in that pic, which is more than should be possible: 86 x 3 = 258
    I know the base damage can sometimes be bugged to show lower than the true value. Walk around, cross some server lines and such and make sure to see if it changes any.
     
  30. Didn't mean you specifically SM.

    Maybe it is just a ranged bug, I don't currently have a melee type setup to test.
     
  31. Garm The Green

    Garm The Green Lore Master
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    God you've started something here. completely believe you, just think there must be more parameters to the math, possibly for thowing, but maybe for other weaps/creatures?

    hmm.

    Anything else influence those ratios...? is the same true with/without DI/EoO/quiver... dunno; I'm cluthing at straws that the 90% is actually allowing some sort of increase. I might have to go TC and do some testing, but hopefully SM will beat me to it ?! :p

    Don't you realise that you've broken the 300% damage increase rule! The sky is falling!!


    My only concern is that with throwing is damage proportional to distance? Not being a thrower myself i have no experience (no SA) but, you are different distances from your foes in those two shots - could that be a contributing factor to your max damage output? Can glaives have "velocity"?
     
  32. Garm The Green

    Garm The Green Lore Master
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    NB that damage i frikkin loopy. 250+ ?? yowzers.
     
  33. I was hoping you'd notice that. It was why I screenied the stat bar open hehe.

    Tbh I don't get the maths way of working it out, I looked at how you did it in the above post and checked what mine should be (the 258) but was sure I'd done 270 AI's on Slashers (I said as much when I first posted the whole build in the other thread).

    What also doesn't make sense is that if it is direct damage why is the AI on Slasher different to the AI on Navrey. All other things are the same, both 40 DI Soul Glaive weapons... hmm, actually the only difference is I had honor on the Slasher and not on Navrey, but I can't see why that would matter as with Navrey I had Spider Slayer & 100 DI so was hitting the cap anyway, and with the Slasher I had Demon Slayer & 100 DI & EoO (EoO was helping with normal hits.)
     
  34. You're right Garm, distance does have an effect, (which I thought was the other way around), being too close affects your chance to hit and being too far affects the damage. Which probably explains the LS on the Slasher. (It was hard to get a good screenie of a critical because of the constant Mana Draining and need to Remove Curse. Normal hits weren't enough to stay alive with all else going on.)

    That explains the LS on the Slasher, but on Navrey the distance didn't change, though it also explains why the damage on the Navrey wasn't the same as on the Slasher.

    I don't think you can have Velocity on Throwing weapons unless they're runic (maybe - not sure on that), but either way it would show as a seperate number, and I don't have it on any of my weapons anyway.
     
  35. According to this:
    http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=152525

    I seem to be 7 tiles for the AI and 9 for the LS, meaning, I have a 1.02% damage increase for the AI (which still doesn't add up), and for the LS I would have a 19% damage reduction but that reduction is reduced by 90% because of my Str &/or Dex BUT then I also appear to have Clumsey on my debuff bar meaning I'm at around 128 Dex and not 140 for the full 90% reduction of the 19% damage penalty. *head spins.* Anyone who can deduce w, t or f from that is welcome to tell me my AI is less than my LS.

    Either way the result's the same, still no Lavaliere.

    *Btw SM could you possibly sticky that Throwing post in the SA forum, its a b*tch to find.*
     
  36. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Which wing armor were you wearing.

    and... am not actually a moderator on any of the boards. I'd suggest sending a PM to whoever is the moderator, or one of the admins.
     
  37. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Demon slayer + EoO = 2.5x damage. DI is a separate entity.
     
  38. An altered Rangers Cloak Of Augmentation.

    & DI is not a separate entity it just has its own cap within the cap.

    "Damage Increasers:

    Damage Increase - Increases the maximum and minimum damage the wielder deals with wrestling, melee and ranged weapons. Damage Increase from items is capped at 100. Total Damage Increase from all sources is capped at 300% - this cap includes DI on items, the Slayer weapon damage increase, weapon special moves like Crushing Blow, and abilities such as Enemy of One."

    http://www.uoherald.com/guide/guide.php?guideId=57
     
  39. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Oh, that's easy... to be blunt: UOHerald is rarely more accurate than the fan sites.

    Don't believe me? check their info on Wraith form. Then check it in game. Note that it's not just 1 resist they messed, but actually the only accurate resist given is -5 Energy. (+15 Phys and -5 Fire)
    Plenty of other examples too.
    Gift of Renewal supposedly adds 1 minute per additional arcanist. It's 10 seconds.
    Attunement: "The arcanist becomes one with an enemy's weapon. This curse lessens damage inflicted by an enemy's weapon by 50% for the duration of the spell. "
    Which is wrong, it absorbs X amount of damage and then wears off. They also messed up the timer on this one too, they say +1 second while it's actually +12s.

    (and that cloak rules out 10% damage modifier from a quiver.)

    by the way, if you don't believe me. You'd do full damage with a single slayer weapon and 0 DI according to their info. Test that out. Then put 100% DI back on.
     
  40. Not in my experience its not. They have a few things that are wrong but fan sites have a lot more mistakes.

    I can't see a way of testing this. I have Orc, Ophidian, Dragon & Spider readily useable. Orc Brutes and Ophidians die too quickly to know what your top damage is for both a normal hit with and without some DI (needs to be the same one or they have different resists), Greater Dragons are hitting me with too much to sit there taking my armor off. No ones at Navrey again.

    If you were right and DI is not part of that cap, then why are you working things out as 3x your base damage? Surely it'd be 4x, you'd have the 3x from the Slayer and the 100 from your items.
     
  41. Garm The Green

    Garm The Green Lore Master
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    So we're no closer to figuring this out?

    I'd go onto TC and make a low level thrower to throw at swoop/rotting corpses but i don't have SA :(

    Anyone willing to take the plunge?

    I'll do AI swords/archery some point in the next week on swoop or rikktor.
     
  42. Garm The Green

    Garm The Green Lore Master
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    Yo dude, i heard you can get rikktor stuck in some places. Maybe that's an option, purely for the purposes of testing the above? either that or ask a buddy to tank him?

    Mind you - i am sure LG isnt the only thrower - anyone else experience this?

    could we raise this with devs like they used to have 5 on frinday?
     
  43. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    The variance of resists is negligible when you're dealing with an increase/decrease of 100% DI.
    and when you kill several of them, the resist differences will even out.

    DI figures into the base damage in the same way tactics and anatomy and lumberjacking do.
     
  44. Thats true, and thinking about it like that you must be right, thanks for clarifying.
     
  45. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    There is no bug, according to my test, throwing do gain a damage bonus when standing on sweet spot. In the picture he looks like standing at about 7-8 tiles away which is the sweet spot for soul glaives. However I do have to say this tho since I use a gargoyle sampire to do slasher as well. However I do have higher crit damage, it's just hard to notice since it doesnt happen all the time. And it's the high roll vs low roll thing. For example let's take his 70 to 86 damage range (lets assume sweet spot bonus dmg does not apply to lighting strike crits), a lighting strike crit can crit for as low as 210 and as high as 258 (if it does over 258 then it will be the sweet spot dmg)

    If you have a well built whammy (mine when doing slasher I can do AI AI LS AI AI LS infinite loop until slasher die). Pure LS spam would never outdamage AI spam and with simple cycle depending on what's on your weapon and SS level AI AI LS spam will outdps LS spam (in slashers case easily doubling if not tripling LS only DPS). Also AI is the only thing reliable to guarantee leeching enough HP on EVERY SINGLE HIT but thats just me since I have a curse weapon build that solos just about everything you can possibly think of in UO.