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Alliance Roster

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Nastia Cross, Feb 10, 2009.

  1. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    Currently, when a guild is part of an alliance, you can only see the names of the other guilds in the alliance through the guild menu. I think its time for a change to this. Guild members should be able to access the roster for every guild in the alliance. This would be especially useful to see who is logged in from your alliance.

    Can I get some feedback from the devs as to if this is possible or if this can be implemented in the future? Thanks!
     
  2. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    This would be handy to be able to see who was or was not online...la
     
  3. Radun

    Radun Guest

    nope, no thenks .. if ur not in that guild u shouldn't be able to see into it.
     
  4. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Radun - let me guess...

    You play a character that steals and/or PKs & steals from other guilds in your alliance - right?

    People with at least emissary status in a guild in an alliance should be able to see the roster of all people online within that alliance, for security purposes.
     
  5. LadyKeroOfAtl

    LadyKeroOfAtl UO Homes & Castles News Reporter
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    I don't agree with that either. If you want to see that guilds roster, ask to put a character in their guild.

    No I don't PK, steal or anything else.

    I run a small guild in an alliance and I like being able to be anonymous sometimes.

    i.e. When someone wants a rez (but doesn't really need it because there's healers nearby) and I'm busy. If it doesn't appear to be an emergency or I'm afk, My name isn't being spammed because I'm not visible.

    I'm sure in those alliances with multiple big guilds, there's just people that don't like each other. Without them being in the same guild or being seen in roster, they can attempt to avoid conflict.

    And one more thought.. and this will sound mean..
    But just because someone in alliance feels like dealing with/adding players who beg and whine all the time from other allies/guildies, doesn't mean that everyone else does.
    An old alliance i was in had one of the worst beggars I've seen in the game, Only way I could play for even an hour a day without being asked for something (normally something expensive and he just absolutely refused to do quests alone or even hunt alone) was by not answering in alliance when I saw him on and by avoiding the bank he frequented.

    As far as Emissary's having that ability for security.. Its not much security if you can't boot whoever's causing the problem and that's a whole other set of debates.
     
  6. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Eh, why?
    It would be nice, but I really don't see why it should be needed. Use alliance chat and ask if you really need to.
     
  7. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Viper09:

    A real example of why it is needed.

    A player (We'll call him "X") gets admitted into one of the minor guilds in a Non-Fel alliance. This character is a member of the Thieves Guild (unbeknownst to the guild that admitted him), and is NOT who he says he is.

    Said alliance has about a dozen guilds, and it would be impossible for people without 2 or 3 accounts to have members in all of them (And several have restrictions based on skills, like THB and the Cart/LP requirement).

    Player X logs in, uses a disguise kit, then proceeds to steal from, sometimes murder & rob, other alliance members, in places such as Luna Bank, using an unbonded pet (GD or rune beetle) to gank.

    Of course, they aren't gonna respond to alliance chat. Logging other characters on typically will run into the combat down-time, so the perp has probably removed the disguise with an oilcloth (or the Incognito drop) by the time you can go through all the other guilds rosters to see who it was with alts - provided you have characters in all the guilds.

    If you allow Guildleaders Warleaders & Emissaries to see the alliance's guild's rosters, then there is at least a chance to see who the perp might be (and proving it would STILL be an issue). It's a simple matter of alliance security.

    But, I agree that the normal members and ronin do NOT need to have access to the entire alliance roster.
     
  8. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Each guild to their own, I say, otherwise you may as well form one big guild instead of an alliance.
     
  9. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    You know, the more I look at the answers against the idea, the more the idea shows it has merit.

    Apparently it scares some people who like the idea of stabbing their comrades in the back.

    LadyK, I understand your points, but they miss the mark totally. Besides, there's the ability to turn off alliance chat in the client - so you don't HAVE to hear people if you don't want to.

    And, there are times when you CAN'T use Alliance chat. Like, when you're trying to investigate an incident within the alliance. I'm a guild leader of one guild in my alliance, Emissary in two others - it would be nice to be able to tell if the other guild leaders were on - AND - be able to tell what guild someone is in. That Incident I related was a real one - and several of the GUILD LEADERS got PKed - but since none of us could cycle through all the cross-membershiped characters in time to see WHAT guild the killer was in, before they could remove the disguise and log, it was no help - and talking over Alliance chat would only alert the perp (who by that time was on a different character, acting as if they just logged into the game for the first time that day). Given that Forensic eval gives the fake name, that doesn't help either. And, it especially didn't help when one guild leader got PK'ed by a character with the fake name one of another guild's officers, because the name is on the NPC name list that disguise and incognito draw from. Only the fact that the real character with the same name had not logged in for 3 days prevented a lynching when that character next came on - and the victim had to be added to the guild in question to see the roster. Having the ability, as an Alliance officer (by this definition, only those with recruiting powers), to see (but not do anything else with) your Allies' rosters, can prevent manipulation (including outright naming of characters in X guild, to where they can be mistaken for a character in Y, with the guild tag off).

    In the end, what caught our perp, was that once he had to log off too quickly while still disguised, and his real name was missing from MyUO's roster for his guild, while the disguise name showed in it, until he logged in the next day. We shouldn't have to depend on a vestigal remainder of UO's old site as the only means of investigating intra-alliance intrigue.
     
  10. ZippyTwitch

    ZippyTwitch Lore Keeper
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    Plus even if we could see who is online from all guilds in an alliance doesnt mean you can go pk them or steal from them. The guild list doesn't show where someone is except that they are online. Thats all we need.
     
  11. Thunderz

    Thunderz Certifiable
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    Just say hi/hello in alliance chat and who ever is online will say hi back, if they wana!
     
  12. Radun

    Radun Guest

    or you could have open communication with your allied guilds ranking members, which (by the way) is still required (to deal with your problem) even if you could see into guilds you're not a member of.

    You make a lot of baseless accusations basara, also many assumptions about your debate opponents. If you keep up the personal attacks, someone's going to report you.

    I'm not into the whole thieving thing at all, but I'm opposed to this suggestion due to the added complication to the spying problems many pvp alliances may or may not be facing, and chains of events that would probably lead to the permanent dissolution of all pvp alliances in the game.

    Think twice before you make slanderous comments like those about strangers, most don't respond as well as I to that type of offense.

    P.S. I'm sure someone will find your step-by-step instructions useful....
     
  13. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Thank you for confirming exactly where you stand. What is "security" for PvP is usually a hindrance for PvM groups and vice versa.

    The only ones being offensive are those that insist there is no legitimate reason for any alliance to want such a thing.

    We have open communication between the guild leaders - the person was deliberately looking for victims when his guild leaders (and most of the others) were all at work, and therefore timing his actions to maximize communication difficulty (and the only reason the perp ended up hitting guild leaders' crafter alts coming back from Melissa was because I was unemployed, and the others hit were on non-standard work weeks, with their days off on weekdays - something he wasn't aware of).

    The "baseless accusations" are neither, and the only personal attack is you accusing me of making baseless accusations.

    There's a pretty firm base in my experience as a guild leader for needing them, and it's been something other guild leaders and alliance officers (in not just my alliance) have wanted for a long time. The only baseless are people's insistance that such an OPTION doesn't have legitimate uses for Trammel-only alliances. Hell, even having it as a toggle set by guild leaders would work.

    If you want to get technical, robbing & murdering your guildmates is a perfectly valid method of gameplay - I'm sure Rico would concur :) However, It's a type of gameplay that is primarily meant as a Fel style of gameplay.

    And, if an alliance is set up to where there's not supposed to be that type of shenanigans going on, what can one do? Kick half the alliance's guilds out, because we couldn't figure out which one the perp was operating from? That will REALLY be all sweetness and light to the guild leaders and the innocent members of the guilds kicked. I'm sure they might talk to us again - probably about 2015 or so...

    You are the one making baseless assumptions that the politics of a Trammel-only alliance (with a "no non-consentual PvP with alliance characters - either inside the alliance, or against other guilds in Fel" clause in the charter that all guild leaders and members agree to) work the way that an "anything goes" Fel alliance has. The mindset is completely different.

    Hell, our alliance was approached by another guild recently, and we ended up finding ourselves in the uncomfortable position of having to explain to them that we weren't going to join THEIR alliance (we were led to believe they were wanting to join ours), and that our alliance was specifically formed to AVOID Fel politics (and what they had wanted us for was numbers, to go up against the dominant spawners on the shard).

    The differences and distrust in this thread stems from one thing - the difference between Trammel & Fel.

    And, as such, maybe we should just lock the damn thing and forget it was brought up, because no one's gonna convince the other side to switch.
     
  14. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Primarily, but not entirely...ftw...la
     
  15. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    I agree with alot of what Basara has said, and his example of the disguise kit using pk-thief was primarily my reason for the suggestion. While I mainly play in Fel now, I used to be a member of a rather large Tram guild and we had something exactly like that happen to us (and to several other Tram guilds as well). Talking in alliance chat only antagonized the pk-thief, but luckily we were able to keep him arguing and boasting about his kills long enough to get an Emissary on to boot him.

    I also like the suggestion that maybe this feature should be available only to Emissaries and Guild Leaders. What I don't understand is everyone's apparent need for secrecy... your guild rosters are all listed on UO.com and are updated daily. I frequently check this to see the rosters of opposing factions so I know member counts, names and templates to better know what I'm up against.

    And to address the "just talk in alliance chat" idea, sometimes when people are busy they can't answer in alliance chat, like if they are raiding, spawning, in Doom or fighting Peerless or any other valid activities for people to be busy with.

    Maybe, as an addendum to my original post, instead of being able to see the entire roster, those with access could see only the members currently logged in.
     
  16. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Just so you all know...even if the persona's name got out...they could change their name the minute they were found out...disguise kits allow for rolling changes, anytime the player wants. With every change they make, they get a new name...new identity...la
     
  17. WildWobble

    WildWobble Sage
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    Yes i do believe it would be good to allow emi's a look into roster's of alliance guilds would help greatly in identification of thieves and spy's allow the people to have an expanded community also. and hush up fink just because you like to run in other peoples alliances and steal from people at the bank doe's not mean this Idea has no merit.
     
  18. ZippyTwitch

    ZippyTwitch Lore Keeper
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    This part is a laugh. Only thing it shows on the website is the total number in guild(which doesn't say how many members are chars for 1 person) and the names of the members. You cannot tell someones template from the website unless the guild has only 1 member and you look at the guild stats. The template you can see is only the top 3 skills. That's not enough to say what template a person is.
     
  19. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    Just because you have no idea about how to study your opponents doesn't mean other people don't know what they are talking about. If you see someone in the field often enough and can see their top three skills on uo.com you can have a very good idea of what their template is, especially when you take into account what armor and weapons they wear.

    For example, if the top three skills of 90% Guild A are eval mage and med and then you check the stats and see there is also a high percentage of necro, ss, taming and lore, I'd say its safe to assume that many of those mages are either necro, tamers or both. Then take it one step further and evaluate those same chars by looking at their armor/weapons/mount. TADA Scientific Method at work kiddies.
     
  20. Radun

    Radun Guest

    so when you accused me of being the sort who would kill and steal from alliance members, what exactly was that based on?

    please quote the sentence where I made that assumption.


    I rest my case.
     
  21. Radun

    Radun Guest

    that would be precisely what I'm against... people outside of my guilds being able to see who is online / how many we have online.

    Thanks but no thanks!
     
  22. Radun

    Radun Guest

    and the suggestion was brought up by someone who's motive is to 'evaluate their opponents' ... and they're interested in new ways of seeing how many opponents are online... rolleyes:
     
  23. Nastia Cross

    Nastia Cross Guest

    If you don't agree with my suggestion that is fine, nothing I say is obviously going to sway your opinion, but I have a problem with you to assume what my "motive" is for suggesting it in the first place. Did you read any of my posts fully? First, since when are alliance members opponents and second, why would a guild ally with someone they are fighting? If I need to know who you have online, I already have ways of doing that without allying you... which if you didn't know would make my fields and area effect spells useless. There are always reasons for guild leaders to know who is online at any point in time, I am merely suggesting that leaders have access to see who is online from alliance guilds as well as their own. If you can't trust a guild leader with that information, then obviously you are in the wrong alliance to begin with.
     
  24. Radun

    Radun Guest

    Okay so I may or may not have missed the mark a little..
    Not saying that it's the reason you made the suggestion, merely that it's something you very clearly stated was something that you're motivated to do... You said you want to evaluate your opponents.. I didn't have to assume anything.

    If it's just a thing for emmys and leaders, that's an okay thing by me.

    fyi, and I know you already know this, people join opposing guilds with anonymous alts... currently this only allows them to see guild/ally chat, and the roster of the guild they joined (including who is online).
    If this were to be a change that allowed everyone (not just leaders/emmys) to see the entire alliance roster, it would be making the job much easier for spies, a considerable amount. ..And that's the thing that we don't want to happen.

    We were never worried about actual allies seeing into our guilds... what we don't want is someone to be able to spy on an entire alliance of guilds by joining just one of the guilds.. getting a definite count of how many opponents are online.

    What other methods are there to see how many players a rival guild/alliance has online? Check their vent info? We all know that number doesn't mean anything, with people being afk, and people not logging into vent.... what else? Ask them nicely? :p

    A question I want an answer to is... How would this be better than using other methods that are already available using the game's current mechanics?
     
  25. von Beck

    von Beck Guest

    Yes I think Emissaries need to be able to see who is on from other guilds. We had an issue recently where a 120 magery scroll was stolen by an alliance infiltrator. The person from whom it was stolen was so angry he almost left the shard for good, which would have been really upsetting for me as he's one of the main players in our guild.

    So either prevent players stealing from other alliance members in Trammel or at least give us some tools to track down the perpetrators.