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Analysis: The Effects Of A Successful PVP Guild

Discussion in 'UHall' started by frawsty, Jun 20, 2008.

  1. frawsty

    frawsty Guest

    In this post I will try to be as unbiased as possible. However, being a long time player of UO and true lover of the game this might not be 100% possible. My main shard is Pacific but this content can be applied to any shard.
    ====

    On Pacific the largest and arguably the most successful guild is the Fallen Lords [FL]. What makes them successful? Their goals which are "Shard Dominance" and "Champ Spawn Ownership" have largely been attained.

    Their tactics of the "zerg" or overwhelming numbers almost always provide them with wins in any PVP situation. With the large number of members available they can provide regular patrols of the champs and previously "ghost cams" and even stealth monitors. Using IM/cell phones/TS they are able to call in the troops, overwhelm and take over any champ spawn that has been worked. Aside from the champ spawns the main location for PVP is at the Yew gate which they can also quickly dominate with the zerg.

    This all combined makes for what I consider a successful PVP guild whereas no other individuals or guilds can compete, the game is won.

    Analysis:
    FL's dominance of Felucca has become a double edged sword. Here are a few key effects whether they be positive or negative:

    Guild members have free/cheap access to all levels of skill and stats Powerscrolls.
    The use or sale of these can make one rich in game and max out the characters potential thus making the individual AND guild more powerful. Powerscrolls come only from the Champs thus they have a monopoly on the shard. This not only makes them richer in game but in real life too. Many of the members are the online gold, powerscrolls and artifact sellers that make thousands of US Dollars.

    This is not just a localized shard effect, with the use of shard transfer tokens, the members can transfer up to 125 "cheaply earned" items to other shards and sell for higher prices. This spreads their wealth among the servers thus providing for more customers paying real cash.

    Shard/PVP dominance destroys competition
    When players are overwhelmed in PVP they become angry/frustrated etc at the lack of balance or fairness of the system. Immediate effects are that these players either logout or go somewhere else (trammel, craft etc) thus emptying the field of battle.
    Long term effects are shard transfer or quitting PVP or UO completely, furthering the grip of FL shard dominance.

    The point of this analysis is the long term effects of a successful PVP guild: Shard transfers or quitting by players. It's ironic that the success of these tactics can be their undoing as they force other players to quit or transfer. As we see on Pacific, the guild finds that they have no one to fight.

    For purists this is bad but for those only in it for monetary gain whether it be in real life or in game, it is a success.

    In a time when newer, visually attractive, balanced MMOs are being released, the Champ spawn and powerscroll system is a recipe for the death of a shard and eventually Ultima Online itself.
     
  2. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    See though, FL is not a good PvP guild, they are afraid to create character on siege. Sure it's easy enough to transfer fully loaded characters between production shards, but try to organaze a group to fight on Siege, and you will show you have a good group of guildys.

    I only know of a few guilds that have been able to bridge that gap...la
     
  3. frawsty

    frawsty Guest

    You're missing my point. Whether they be good or not, the zerg makes them winners of PVP fights. Skill generally isn't a factor.

    Example: When you have 6 players hitting 1, if only half miss, that 1 player is still dead or will be in the next round. That's only melee fighting, casting effects can be worse, para gank, debuffs, poison. The zerg doesn't need skill.
     
  4. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    There is no getting away from zerging. It just wont happen. There have always been groups of people who prefer to play with teams as opposed to solo. Personally, I've always been a solo player, and why being a thief really seemed to be the best profession to play...la
     
  5. I dont get your point. Every talks about balance. You are not talking about an arena duel. You not talking about PvP. 1 player vs 1 player, like 2 gladiators.

    PvP is people vs people. Players kill players.

    In any situation numbers bring victory in PvP. They are a guild that attacks and kills. They are successful because they are warring as one.

    It is a skill. Its a skill to organize a guild. I takes time to manage events. Meet people and organize.

    I just dont understand (not just you) why people cry foul when they are ganked. Its how guilds work.
     
  6. Heres a play style.

    Create a mole charcture and infiltrate their guild. Have a few friends join you. Turn on them and create havoc. Have fun with it.
     
  7. Omnicron

    Omnicron Stratics Legend
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    Organizing a Zerg takes patience too. Usually you get allot of trashy players who are just learning or dont know what to do. You still have to call defence, and call targets. You have to know your rolls in group pvp. Some people are only for dismounts, some for casting fields, some for champ killer, some for offence, some for xhealing....

    There's many things in group pvp that helps people be successful, not just numbers. Sure numbers can help, but you give me a group of 8-9 guys who can work together, and know what to do when to do it, they can take out a group of 13-14 people easy...
     
  8. Castor

    Castor Guest

    i can think of many, more important reasons for the decline of uo
     
  9. frawsty

    frawsty Guest

    I'm not crying foul. Just discussing the effects of the success of a large PVP guild.
     
  10. Now here is one of the problems.
    Say you and you mate pick of 3 or 4 of the ZERG guild.
    Well if Freaking 30 seconds they are alive and battling again.


    Now where is the problem?

    UO dumb the game down so much we dont even realize it.

    Insurance. So you keep it.
    100% LRC blah. Silly.
    But the fact you can die and rez and be back in pvp in an instance is so silly.

    Death has no consequence anymore.
    +
     
  11. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    I sort of see what you mean... the current PS system seems primitive in the MMO world
     
  12. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    Are you on here crying some more Frawsty?

    Just because every guild you join only lasts a few months because of poor leadership and the selfish attitudes of most of your so called leet players doesn't mean the system is flawed.

    How about instead of whining on every board about FL, you take all that free time you have and organize a group of people to fight the zerg? Maybe then you'll find out how hard it actually is to organize a large group of people and keep them together for more than a couple of months.
     
  13. :cool: "Analysis" ? well, sorta ... I guess ...

    Just saying ... "wheres the beef ?" (the meat, the point, La Raison d'entre) ... aside from opinion ... whats "new", unique, or "first time seen"?

    Zerg works .... yeah ... seen it before ... before UO ... 'cept then it was called "over whelming force" ... (the principle has been around awhile)

    Making money, as a "standard"? where most = best ... uhhh ... merchants? scritter scum? I know... "PvP" was your "conditional" ...but anyone with knowlege knows ... "cut-throat" applies there equally well, and upon both standards (small and large numbers ... not just "zerg") ...
    Just saying ... where's "the profit margin"? the cost vs return ? You mention (in passing) "transfer up to 125 "cheaply earned" ..."
    most know that "volume" and turn over (not to ignore the entire economics of supply cycle) are dependent on many many forces ... and that Just 125 items ... when the max is around 800 (per transfer) ... well ... wheres the supporting analysis << of that ? A "round trip" via fresh tokens ...~~$40 ...
    *shrugs* need a comparitive audit of spreed sheets ... for there actually to BE a point (to analyze) ... See?

    As for "Dominance" re: bestest in "the game" ... Rico quite thoroughly unraveled any claim ...
    :cool: Heh! "not showing up" ...be it in numbers OR skills ... :cool: ain't NEVER gonna count as a "win" ... not in UO ... not even in a clever "analysis".
    Reason's become mere "excuses", no matter their basis, time or conn or whatever ...
    "Zerg" should work as well on Siege as any other ... BUT until tested and proven ... easily dismissed as theory (aka: talk) ...
    Leaving the Fallen Lords as only the Lords of Trammie land ... possibly "afraid" of Siege ... oooOooOoOoO [​IMG] ... I went there !! oh ! yeah I did !

    analyze THAT!
    :D

    G'day !
     
  14. Man I have to agree with you here.

    Organzing a guild is hard work and you deserve the fruits of one's labor.
     
  15. Vexxed

    Vexxed Certifiable
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    FL is NOT a PvP guild. They are spawing guild that has no interest what so ever in PvP...... Why you say?

    1)FL only actually does spawns 6-8am in the morning with 12+ people when no one else is on. Specifically t2A RAT spawns so "no one else can spawn" as they put it. That's soemthing you'd do if you were making RL $$$ from scrolls ... Not a good way to promote PvP.

    2) FL will not.. I repeat WILL NOT fight if their leadership doesn't think they can win. Look at the guild "RULES" 30+ people required?? to pop a Harry.. lol... I've heard of members being punished for popping a harry with less and losing it... In it for the PvP.. Yeah sure...

    3) FL does not care about the skill level of their members... it's brutally apparent when you fight them... Half of them don't know what to do if you hit back. Yeah PvP guild lemme tell ya....

    4) a PvP guild goes looking for PvP.... of a guild of 300+ I can think of 3-4 people who I see occasionally at Yew gate or out looking for trouble...The only time I See FL on PAC is when they raid some newbies doing dsp and 15+ show, and 5 minutes later they all log off.... :sad3:

    FL does not want PvP. They do not want a contest of skill. They do not appreciate defeating a difficult opponent. Dieing and "Out-Ressing" your opponent is a "Brillant" stragtegy for winning in their opionion....Calling in Backup and having enough people where literally a guy is spamming wither on the island with no enemy's in site bc he was told to... That's what they call Great leadership and the importance of a "Battle leader" giving his minions the right jobs... :lol:

    Bleh...Dominance ??? after 11pm 90% of FL goes to bed and since they won't risk a "LOSS" with remotely even numbers spawning on PAC after that time is free game... but then again who cares ?? it's spawning.... I'll pop a dsp work it to coon, see 4x #'s of FL raiding kill my handful and bail... happiness....
     
  16. frawsty

    frawsty Guest

    The FL raiding isn't what it used to be simply for the fact that the number of players that attempt a champ are a fraction of what they used to be. This is one of the effects I discussed, players leaving or quitting the game. Pac has become a barren shard on the Felucca side. It's a shame but reality.

    I myself have lost many buddies and in game aquaintences due to this effect. The majority have just left in search of pvp that they can enjoy whether it be AoC, WoW or the first person shooter games.
     
  17. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    Uh most of FL have jobs.... we leave the 2am spawns for FOO/CD.

    And please don't talk about FL not wanting fair fights, considering the OP and probably yourself play stealth archers who wait for people to get to half life fighting someone else before even showing yourselves.
     
  18. frawsty

    frawsty Guest

    ah thanks Colter. This is another effect of the zerg, the resurgence of the stealthers. I myself play a stealth archer named Nooberman.

    I never played one until being a constant victim of the 10v1 "pvp" now that I've become a stealther I'm able to enjoy the game once again being that I'm not always seen. I take a lot of flack for this but I'd much rather this than be the constant victim I see in so many others on the field.
     
  19. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    That's why the winner of almost every pvp contest held on Pac is always a guy from FL right?
     
  20. Satanatra

    Satanatra Guest

    Large guilds come and then go away. It's a never-ending cycle.

    It's too hard to keep that many people together, it gets boring, personalities end up clashing, people get greedy... it falls apart.

    Of course, then it starts over again.

    Matrix?
     
  21. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Ugh, if someone participates in a fight that is between two or more players, it is PVP.
    to be more precise, PVP= Player vrs Player. FL fights other players, thus being Player vrs Player. Therefore FL would have an interest in PVP and can be considered a PVP guild. I have seen FL fight other players, so I have no idea why you would not consider them a PVP guild. You don't have to take skill into consideration when wanting to pvp. Sure, it would be advised to have at least decent skill to pvp, but you dont have to have any minimum amount of skill to participate.
     
  22. :cool: I don't think it serves the "Honor/integrity" of ALL "PvPer's" to loosen the definition that much ..
    Pretty easy for house and gate fighters to wear the "proud badge" of being a "top-notch" PvPer ...
    For that matter ... blue trammie spawn hogs ... are certainly "competing" for the "rewards" of their efforts ...
    :cool:
    Just saying ... even merchants in moonglow ... could slip in under THAT vagueness ... re: price wars ... etc.

    A master of Sun-Tsu ... wins many battles ... without striking a blow ...
    *shrugs*

    what eva ...
     
  23. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I think it serves :p
    Let us just create a greater definition of EPVP (Elite Player vrs Player) for the major actions :gee:
     
  24. Vexxed

    Vexxed Certifiable
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    If you want to get Technical Viper... FL might

    PPPPPPPP v P

    but they rarely if ever PvP..

    :lol:

    btw Fayled a bit over the top don't ya think? I read most of your posts and then have no idea what you were trying to convey. You might even be cultivating that impression on purpose, but I still find it tiresome.

    Anyway...
     
  25. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    I think the OP's point is more realisticly can your group of 8-9 guys take oyt 30 to 40. If so can they take out 60-80. If so can they take out 120-160.

    Or in short at what point does your 8-9 fall no matter the skill level of the opponents.

    Ponder this, Hercules was said to have the strength of 10 men. Ok so in a tug of war, Herculese on one side and 10 men on the other side is a stand off. Along come the one solo woman. She will be the one that decides who wins.
     
  26. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    That I will agree with you on. That's why Fayled has the dubious honor of being the only person on my ignore list. Now if I could get people to stop quoting his stupid posts.
     
  27. Redxpanda

    Redxpanda Lore Keeper
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    If the tram/ilsh champs started dropping powerscrolls, 50%-75% of FL members would quit the guild and 25% of them will likely just quit the game alltogether.

    I don't have anything good to say about that guild so i'm just gonna stop there.
     
  28. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Frawsty, I get your point and have observed those same results on other shards. The reality is it goes quite deeper. The developers at one time had the vision to see that more players wanted non-PvP than wanted it. The result was Trammel. Then every expansion forward that contained landmasses added more non-PvP areas. The developers failure was in not eliminating PvP altogether when 3rd Dawn came out. Sure they would have lost some subscribers, but the majority has always been anit-PvP. Instead they keep trying to add ways to lure fish back to Felucca for the anti-social miscreants to slaughter. The game would be far better without these people period. Remove PvP and you instantly will raise the caliber of player. Think of how much faster we could get new content if the developers weren't having to constantly struggle with PvP balance every time they introduce something? Sure PvP has always been a part of this game and even played a more central role early on, but it has also always been a hindrance to development and the player jury rendered its verdict on PvP when Trammel was born.
     
  29. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    You don't get his point, you're to busy pushing your own biased agenda.


    So because we PvP we're all anti-social miscreants? Let me guess, we're all 12 year olds living in our parent's basement right? Your stereotypes are ignorant and played out.


    The same could be said about Tram, but I'm sure you're incapable of seeing that.
     
  30. Redxpanda

    Redxpanda Lore Keeper
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    You know what Colter, Beastmaster made some valid points. We would get more content faster if it wasn't for the nagging pvp balance issue. Also, pvp has become nothing more than a gank fest. When was the last time you saw 2 people (non guildmates) have a nice honorable 1 on 1 fight. PvP these days is nothing more than one party trying to grief the other party and that style of gameplay has drawn all the immature people to it and pushed all the mature people away from it. Lastly i agree that fixing PvP would raise the bar for Ultima Online as a MMO and make it a more respectable game that would attract a better player base.
     
  31. AZ-

    AZ- Guest

    Colter, FL sucks. Don't kid yourself.