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Anyone mind explaining why imbuing is unbalanced as it is currently?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Ender, Aug 16, 2009.

  1. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    The way I see it, PvP is mostly dominated by those "leet" players that have perfect suits and all the powerscrolls they need and such right now, before imbuing even exists. What is imbuing gonna do? Allow average players to be able to build suits of the same quality. PvM is (somewhat) the same way. Players that have all those perfect items are so far ahead of new players. What little new players UO gets (and yes, you know it's not many), a lot of them see the gap between them and other players, and know it will be extremely difficult to close it, get discouraged, and quit the game. Imbuing will just balance all that. They still have to work to get the skill up and to get all the materials needed to make that perfect suit (and yes, it's quite a lot). I dunno, maybe I'm just missing something here. But it seems to me like imbuing is just fine.
     
  2. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Nope, you aren't missing anything. You are seeing things clearer than most.
     
  3. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I saw the post title and was gonna come in and explain why imbuing will actually level the playing field instead of unbalancing it. Then saw that that's exactly what you meant.

    Yup, you are absolutely correct!
     
  4. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Not entirely, IMHO.

    You are correct about the current, unfortunate and very very wide gap among the "Haves" and the "Haves Not" which is hurting PvP in the game since it does not provide enough matched challenges because of disparity of gear, armor, scrolled up skills.

    And in theory imbuing "could" be of some help but there is a big "BUT", and that is that the cost for raising it and the cost for actually imbuing high end items seems to be very high, so high that only those players who already are the wealthiest and already have the best gear/weapons, can support.

    So, I am VERY afraid, all imbuing will do is simply further widen the GAP between the "Haves" and the "Haves Not" of the game making it even more impossible to cover and thus harming PvP in the game even further.

    What quite several players do not understand, that while it may be nice to have a upper hand for better gear and armor, these pumped up mods make it for them much easier to win their fight and much harder for others to be a match.

    Hence, it makes PvP not challenging for some and impossible to fight for others.

    Eventually, the game becomes boring for those on top and frustrating for those on bottom and subscriptions get closed thus loosing revenues to the game.

    To me, there is only one way to have a winning PvP in the game and that is, making sure that players at a disadvantage are helped in their task to cover the GAP between the the "Haves" and the "Haves Not" of the game so as to make sure that the game has as many players as possible at a matching, evened out and balanced PvP point.

    This means, that wealth and powergaming should not matter much as they do now in aquiring high end gear.

    That's how I see it.
     
  5. Der Rock

    Der Rock Guest

    you think you missing something?
    NO
    you missing it all

    1.a NEW player should never be as good as an veteran player !
    2.a NEW player should stay out of to dangerous places he can´t handle !
    3.a NEW player should collect experience and resources or gold during skilling !
    4.a NEW player should NOT stay in a safe place and skill his character with a GOLEM!
    5.a NEW player should never be in the position to get a PERFECT SIUT as long as he cant keep it (insurence/repair)


    if player thinks they can log in in uo,skilling one day at the luna bank,equip the most powerfull item and then jump in the battlefiled, i would say, they play the wrong game and should quit!

    also: it is an mmo,you know massive MULTIPLAYER, supply and demand,no one should be able to be self-sustaining 100% in the game,for this reason,some things are so hard to get.
    everyone should find a way(playstyle) he is good in it,
    several are good in crafting,others are good in powerscroll collecting and other are good in gathering resources or artie hunting and so on.
    THAT is what makes UO the best game of all.

    in the past 2-3 years this part was almost dead,because we had almost only SELLERS and a constant shrinking buyer playerbase.most vendors was untouched for weeks and month.

    SA will change this,we (hopefully)will get a high demand back.



    You say:"a lot of them see the gap between them and other players, and know it will be extremely difficult to close it"

    I say :" let´s hope that this circumstance will last as long as it is possible,otherwise the whole land will be empty and not only fell"
    ;)
     
  6. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I'm afraid you are looking at this the wrong way, it will ultimately reduce the gap. Note that I too, agree that new players should have easier access to uber equipment. Otherwise, it's pretty frustrating for them and they will leave. Impt note, this doesn't mean simply handing over uber equipment to newbies who double click on a cow or something, people don;t stay long in games like that either.

    If you have read a post earlier in the recent weeks, UO is in fact, one of the rare games where you don't have an infinitely huge divide between a newbie level 1 char and a level 50 char (consider also most of the uber equipment have a min char level requiremnt in these games).

    This change will effectively ensure that "wealth and powergaming should not matter much as they do now in aquiring high end gear".



    Current situation
    How do these uber players get their uber gear at the moment? Runics. That's where the wealth of these players come in, for they can afford to buy/burn those runics. Or buy from others that have burned their own runics to make these items.

    Let's say that you were given a ton of runics to make a suit to compete with said uber person, you may still never get that weapon/armour with the maxed out perfect stats you want.

    Without imbuing, I can safely say it will take a very lengthy period of time for you to make a suit that's competitive.

    Personally, because I am a cheapskate and refuse to buy runics, most of my chars run around in suits with resists in the 30s-40s. Except for my warrior, I concentrate on LRC and MR. See screenies of chars I have posted if you don't believe me.



    With imbuing in the beginning
    Everyone will need to train imbuing from the start when this is released on prodo shards. So that's 1 of the equalizers - everyone will start with more or less equal footing.

    True, wealthy players that can afford to burn runics and unravel them for ingredients will still have an advantage in the beginning. But ultimately, runics are not a very efficient way to gather the uber items required for feeding the soulforge. That advantage will not last long.



    With imbuing in the short-term
    The most efficient way is loot from mobs. When the wealthy players burn up all their stockpiles of runics, this is what they have to do as well.

    This effectively takes the wealth of players out of the equation in the short term (yes, their existing suits may give them a slight advantage in PvM, but remember I mentioned my suits sucked? I hunt high-end mobs, peerless and do spawns with these chars, main is a EV casting stealth mage/weaver).

    Unless they come up with a change that allows wealthy players to buy equipment off mobs, wealthy players will not have much of an advantage here. They gotta slog it like the rest of us. Oh, they will get their uber imbued equipment a little faster than us on behalf of the ingredients they got from unravelling their runics-crafted items, but during that time they are working bods/buying runics/crafting runics, the rest of us will be looting mobs every 5 mins and we are right behind them.



    With imbuing in the long-term
    Interestingly, the mobs you can get good soulforge fodder includes the low-mid level mobs. Several of the properties like slayers, spellchannelling, fast cast, MR2 etc are considered 100% properties when unravelled. Coupled with some good combos, they'll make relic level ingredients, I've been keeping an eye on these for the past months.

    So there is no need for newbies to powergame or continuously camp the high-end mobs in order to get the ingredients for imbuing the best properties. You make not get it as quickly, but you are guranteed to get your uber suit, without spending millions of gold, without powergaming high-end mobs, and without relying on sheer dumb luck on runic attempts.
     
  7. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I feel a rather important detail is missing here : "For how long" ?

    That is, for how long it is reasonable to accept that a new player is playing uphill untill they eventually cover up the GAP ?

    One month ? Six months ? A year ?

    Keep in mind, that while the new player struggles to catch up, the top players will also keep playing and even further better their gear and weapons and wealth and blah blah....

    So, unless something IS done to aid new players cover up that GAP, there is high and serious risk that the GAP will NEVER BE COVERED and when eventually the new player figures it out, they see it as an helpless task and leave the game with resulting loss of subscriptions which is a loss to all who like the game because it means loss of revenues and thus, support for the game and less new content.

    So, wanting new players cover that GAP and the sooner the better is actually a good thing for the game, IMHO.

    You hope Stygian Abyss will bring demand ?

    Wel, it all depends if new players see "hope" and truth in the changes that they WILL indeed help them cover that GAP between entrying players and top players.

    As of now, I am sceptical.

    I see most of the changes as catering top players, the 'Haves" of the game, rather than the "Haves not" as it should instead be for the better sake of the game.
     
  8. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    That's not a fair question to ask. It depends on how much the new players play. Though it's definitely going to be faster than relying on just random mods on runics. And it's guaranteed. No dumb luck messing with runics.



    Ah, but you are not considering that there's an upper limit - when they have built the best suits they can. Doesn't matter that the old players can continue building suits, they can only wear one suit at any one time.

    They new player needs only to only complete 1 suit to enter the competition. Also, remember that to get a 5th property, the max chance is around 1.3%. Most people will leave their suits with 4 mods. 99% failure chance to get a 5th mod is reserved for the perfectionist.

    Also, most people will leave the least useful property as the last one to imbue. So it's going to have less of an impact.



    You do realize that that's exactly what imbuing will do right? Closing the gap btwn the haves and have nots in terms of uber equipment? And it caters more to the players that do not have uber gear more than the players that already have this.
     
  9. popps

    popps Always Present
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    And what about new content ?
    Over a time span of a year new content can be added which means that the upper limit gets pushed forward since the top players immediately conquer it given their better equipment and wealth.

    So, the catching up always gets moved a tad forward over time.
    Unless the entrying players have a gear more in catching up (i.e. can advance faster than top players), that GAP risks never getting closed.....




    Theoretically possibly, but in true reality ?
    I fear that only the "Haves" players will be truly able to put imbuing to good use, not as much the "Haves Not" of Ultima Online........
     
  10. No player will have to raise the imbuing skill to have imbued items. All they need to do is get the ingredients either by getting items that produce them when unraveled, or buy them, and have one of those so-called "haves" make what they need.

    Wow, imagine that. Player interaction in a MMO. What's Sosaria coming to?

    You really should quit while you're behind. This same ol' song and dance routine of yours was old about 2 seconds after you started it.

    And started with incorrect information at that. :loser:
     
  11. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Ermm...it doesn't change anything when new contents pushes the cap further. It will be available to the new players as well. And they will still be able to catch up.

    Let's consider your example of a Ferrari in the other post. Say uber rich player Bill Gates now has a Ferrari that he used a runic to get. It has a V8 engine and is bright red. A new player has no runic and rides around on a horse.

    When imbuing comes around, every one can go to the scrapyard to salvage parts from other scavenged vehicles. This scrapyard is special in that it contains a special machine that can convert the scrap you find into workable parts you want. Still with me so far?

    Bill Gates has always been mifffed about his Ferrari missing a spoiler. He can use more runics until he gets a Ferrari that has a spoiler, or he can go scavenging in the junkyard for parts. He can even scrap the new Ferraris he got from the runics for parts. Soon, he scraps enough materials to customize a spoiler onto his Ferrari. Woot! Once done, he continues scrounging the scrapyard for parts and make a second Ferrari.

    At the same time Bill was looking for parts to make a spoiler, the newbie rides his horse to the scrapyard to scrounge for parts. He slowly but surely find the parts to make a Ferrari. He found the spoiler parts at the same time as Bill. But Bill has a headstart, since he already has the other parts of a Ferrari. While Bill starts work on his 2nd Ferrari, the newbie is still working on his 1st. When the newbie finally finishes his own Ferrari, Bill is likely 1 step away from his finishing his second.

    Is there a gap? Yup. However, you can only drive 1 Ferrari at any 1 time (you can only wear 1 suit at any 1 time). It doesn't matter if Bill has 10 Ferraris. The newbie only needs 1 to compete with him.

    1 year later, due to a technology breakthrough, V12 engines are now available. Bill goes to the salvage yard again to salvage parts for the new V12 engine. Woot, he does it! He now works on upgrading his other 9 Ferraris.

    Our newbie who has been racing with Bill during the past 1 year with his own completed Ferrari will also go to the scrapyard to get parts to upgrade his engine. Woot! He gets his V12 Ferrari the same time as Bill. (Unless he is lazy and doesn't want to go scrounging in the scrapyard). He probably have 8 more Ferarris to upgrade after this, since he started later than Bill.

    Now, enters the newbie's little brother. He rides his horse into the scrapyard and starts building his V12 Ferrari. It takes him some time to finish his 1st Ferrari. Guess what? He now can compete with Bill and his older brother. Doesn't matter how much time they had to make their 10th Ferrari, he only needs 1 to compete.



    See my example above.
     
  12. Wilde1

    Wilde1 Guest

    Nice post, OP. You're on target.
     
  13. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Yeah poor people might be able to make a few nice jewels or weapons, but armor wise its gonna be a rich mans world, cause unless you can enhance with materials its not gonna be a great piece of armor, so you could spend how ever many hundreds of thousands it will take to make lets say a nice pair of gloves, but you may fail to enhance 8 pairs before you get a keeper, repeat with a whole suit... you'll get better results with a barbed kit, which is how it is now.

    Jewelry and weapon wise it will surely help level the playing field (of course there will be better stuff out there from high end drops) but poor people looking to imbuing to make suits will be sadly disappointed.
     
  14. Mitzlplik_SP

    Mitzlplik_SP Guest

    Poor peaple?

    We are worried about poor peaple in UO? If those poor peaple want better things,they should do one thing. PLAY.

    I`m sick to death of games catering to the lazy and the clueless. If you can`t get off your duff and make a good amount of gold you are at fault and are doing something very wrong.

    I mean seriously,I don`t need my game dumbed down just because someone doesn`t wanna smoke dragons (or any noumber of things that drop 1500+) for a couple hours a day. Not to mention peerless drops and a slue of other things that sell for high dollars.

    I am not a powergamer by no means.I have never been to a champ spawn in Fel and don`t even know how to script.With all that working (against?) me,after 14 months of play I still managed to have alot of the goodies the "haves" only have. Its not hard to get what you want in this game,just as long as your willing to go get it.

    Maybe they should institute some form of UO welfare.That way EVERYONE could have what only the ambitous have. Everything doesn`t need to be made attainable by the lazyest of players. Yes things are expensive but on the other hand gold is rediculously easy to obtain........go get some if ya want that "perfect" piece instead of cryng about the haves and have nots.:talktothehand:
     
  15. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Just to clarify, imbuing is unlike enhancing, you don't break the item when you fail. You don't even lose the relics if you fail. You only lose the gems/special gems/paraitic plant etc. So there is no need for 8 pairs of gloves to work on.

    (Edit: I made a mistake as pointed out by Drawde2 - you will lose the relics and the normal gems, but not the special gems/parasitic plant etc. But the item you were trying to imbue won't be destroyed, that part is certain, so no need to make a bunch of runic gloves)

    And from initial tests, high end runics are not very useful in conjunction with imbuing. They tend to give 5 mods which prevents you from adding a missing mod you want. You can't replace 1 either.

    Eg I made an lrc 19, mr 2, lmc 5, hpi 4, +energy resists sleeve. I can't remove the hpi and replace it with fire resists. I can imbue the lrc and lmc to max tho. But it costs the same as imbuing the lrc and lmc on a simple piece with just mr 2. Actually, it costs more since I already have 5 mods on the original piece and that makes my imbuing attempts fail more.

    A bit of testing and I believe it is best to actually start with non runic exceptional pieces as a base.

    More tips later as I get more time to test and verify certain things.
     
  16. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, I can follow your reasoning but still, a part of me tells that having more resources and a longer springboard to make that jump allows to make a longer leap......

    What can I say, time can never lie and eventually, time will tell us whether the GAP can be closed with the proposed changes or if it will widen more.

    All I know, is that for the sake of the game and of more competitive PvP I would like, one way or the other, to see that GAP closed and the sooner the better.

    In Ultima Online there should be no "Haves" and no "Have Nots playing the same game because if players find their matches in PvP more often, this spells for more fun when playing the game.

    And to find their matches more often this means allowing entry players to scroll up and gear up faster and more easily.
     
  17. Alezi

    Alezi Lore Keeper
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    I've only done imbuing in SA beta and I can tell you that it's not gonna affect the demand of runic kits negatively. Runic kits will be in even more demand after SA launches as it is VERY cost in-efficient to imbue yourself a full suit of armor. Sure, it will help countless of players finally getting that spesific piece they need, but a whole suit? Unlikely.

    The best part in imbuing is that you can imbue jewels. Spesific jewels your character(s) need. No more "Looking for X ring" or "Looking for armor piece with X mods" for months or even years - just make your own. Once SA is launched players will be able to build their jewels around their character - not their character around the jewels.

    Imbuing will also level the playing field in terms of items which is one step closer to more balanced PvP encounters.

    Yes, there will be a need for some balancing measures - mostly concerning +skill items. If you will be able to imbue an extra 100 points plus additional combat mods (DCI, HCI, LMC, DI, LRC etc.) without any drawback it's going to be overpowered.
     
  18. Amber Moon

    Amber Moon Seasoned Veteran
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    There are always issues to balance the competitive interests of PvP and PvM when they exist in the same game. PvP seeks avatar equality while PvM seeks a long and hopefully interesting character advancement path.

    The current evolution of UO, pretty much since UO:R, revolves primarily around PvM and I see this as unlikely to change.

    Most of the PvP guys I have input from won't play UO for this reason, and that seems reasonable enough for me. It is primarily a PvM game. And there are more recent games specifically designed to cater more to the PvP players.

    It also seems quite odd to me that you seem so concerned about the PvP aspects of balance while at the same time, complaining about access in PvP areas. Real PvP, as opposed to PK or dueling, has always been about group management and coordination because there is obvious advantage in numbers.

    Sorry to say but in the end Popps, you just come across as a sorry troll and not someone who has reasoned through the issues and reached interesting conclusions.
     
  19. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Let's just say they have a half-built spring board. Oh, they'll finish building it first, but everyone else can build their own spring board. Since there are limits to how long the board can be until some expansion next year, everyone, including new players can build spring boards which will be just as long and allow them to jump just as far.

    This is an improvement over the previous system where you have to buy expensive tools that randomly gave you spring boards of varying lengths.

    I'm getting good at analogies aren't I? :D
     
  20. Kaleb

    Kaleb Lore Master
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    So your saying a new player should be equal to my 12+ years of playing UO and that I shouldn't be ahead of a new player item wise in any way? and they should be able to start right up have what I have earned over the years? If that's the case and their mentality then a MMORPG is not for them and they should quit and go back to console games we dont need that type of player in UO. UO doesn't need players unwilling to earn and work for what they want UO is better off w/o that class of idiot.
     
  21. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    I'm still not seeing the logic there. Do you want to always be ahead of new players, or what? Or is it all of a sudden ok for them to have good stuff after a few years? They'll be working for and earning their stuff with imbuing. It takes a lot of ingredients to fill up a perfect suit. They have to earn or buy those ingredients. Still working for it. But it actually gives them a chance of being equal, or close to equal at least.
     
  22. SevenFaith

    SevenFaith Lore Master
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    This is where most people are failing miserably. PvP is not 100% Item Dependent...

    You can have a 50% uber suit and still trash a 100% uber suit.

    It's called BRAINS and SKILL. Analyze the situation, act accordingly. People are stuck up on ITS ALL ITEMS. Infact, a lot of strategy can be applied to PvP which is not item dependent. People just need to LEARN what those tactics are, make up your own and adapt.

    All the item cries must be coming from people who do not PvP or have the mindset of "I don't have this item, therefore I am at a disadvantage." That is the ultimate fail mindset.
     
  23. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Ender, I will give you a different take on the subject. I do not think that imbuing is "overpowered" per se, I think that imbuing in its current form will totally eclipse all other crafting skills.

    Why use a runic with RANDOM properties, when you can imbue for exactly what you want?
    Why hunt monster loot with RANDOM properties, when you can imbue for exactly what you want?

    The high cost upon release will go down. After done training the skill, it will not be such a big thing for people to figure out the absolute best ways to minimize their cost (loss of ingredients) through tweaking intensities and adjusting which order what goes onto the items. So, in the end, what will other crafters do except make plain exceptional pieces to imbue on, MAYBE enhance, and repair?

    There are ways they can keep the end result just as powerful as it is now, without nullifying the usefulness of the crafter, the runic, and monster loot.
     
  24. JoO

    JoO Seasoned Veteran
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    I am a HUGE fan of the concept of giving everyone the best gear and balancing the game from there. At this stage in the game imbuing isn't world shattering it closes gaps and ties up loose ends that's it.
     
  25. Drawde2

    Drawde2 Guest

    From the little testing I did on the open beta shard, you keep the special gems but loose the relics and normal gems. Adding a full intensity uses five relics and ten normal gems, success or failure, and 10 special gems on success.

    Also, it's almost impossible to add a 5th max intensity. Although I just checked skills and luck, adding that 5th one had a 1.1% chance of success, as a gargoyle with 120 imbuing using the gargoyle soulforge. In other words, most people will have either four max intensity abilities on their items, or five lower ones. At five relics a failure, even the 20ish% to add the fourth will be costly.
     
  26. Amber Moon

    Amber Moon Seasoned Veteran
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    I would love to hear you thoughts on how to achieve this....
     
  27. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Whoops, you are right. I got confused.

    *runs to correct post above*
     
  28. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    You keep the maximum possible intensity at 500%, but limit how much of that can be imbued to, say 200% or 300%. That means that you would have to start with a base item that already had some properties on it (runic crafted or monster loot).