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Archery

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Violence, Jun 21, 2008.

  1. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Just letting people know that there is indeed an exploit that makes Archery weapons hit for over-cap damage per shot, without using any normal damage augmenting methods or abilities- Either player or weapon based.

    In particular there's a couple of people using crossbows (without DI/Velo/Spell/Special Move) 100% Physical Damage, that repeatedly hit my character (70 Ph.R.) for 31, sometimes extending to 51 PER SHOT.

    According to UO's rules even if those persons had 120 Tactics, 120 Anat, 45% on weapon and 20% from Talisman plus 140 Str(for argument's sake) they might pull off impressive damage but not 51 per shot.

    So before we get Pub 54 can we find what's wrong, Devs? I have reported one of them which I fought, that was today. This is ridiculous.
     
  2. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    Try the math at 100% item-based DI to be sure, and note/remember about being able to pump str pots.
     
  3. AZ-

    AZ- Guest

    What's your cold resist? People use Quiver's of Rage (50% cold damage) which leads to the higher damage. But I can think of one archer on LS that hits for extraordinary amounts of damage...
     
  4. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Revenant, tell me how to get 100% Item Based DI without : Stormgrip, Jewel-based DI, Talisman 20% DI, DI Bonus On Weapon?

    Let's assume he had 125 STR plus 20 from Totem, 145, +Pot. Great, I calculated those in my example.

    ".. had 120 Tactics, 120 Anat, 45% on weapon and 20% from Talisman plus 140 Str(for argument's sake) they might pull off impressive damage but not 51 per shot."

    Note especially the last part. Even if they ate Grapes of Wrath- which I never saw them doing or heard them doing being stealthed right next to them constantly- they would never pull off the damage I received.

    AZ, he was wearing Quiver with Cold Damage. I am 70 Cold Resist.
    You can think of 1 on LS, I can think of 2 on Europa. They are very particular.

    Again for argument's sake I will accept it is possible to legally pull off normal shots of 31 Damage with a very, very simple crossbow, no abilities use etc.
    That is a huge imbalance right there. If that's a normal shot then with Concussion + Spell Effect + DI from here and there that person will do 35+Concussion Damage, PER SHOT.
    As you see even if it was legit which it is NOT, it is clearly over the top.
    It's one thing using Bushido succesfully to reach 35 LS damage, and another to exploit. I know what I saw.
    Furthermore notice how I say it reached 51 Damage per PURE shot?
    Explain that.

    If you can really pull this off in Test Center as I replied to another thread about Archery, then please be my guest by all means.
    Anyway.. The fact everyone's on their Archer again only counts towards such arguments.
     
  5. Revvo

    Revvo Slightly Crazed
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    What is your lowest resist? Cursed/corpse skinned?
     
  6. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    Those expensive arrows do more damage than those cheap ones... They probably got their arrows from doom.

    (Are you transformed in an form? vampire, wraith, etc?)
     
  7. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    Oh.. I remember quiver of rage used to be bugged... I wonder if it still is (where it used to do 5-10 more damage PER shot - after resist are applied)
     
  8. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    One way would be: Talisman for 20%, weapon for 40%, bracelet for 21%, ring for 19%.

    I'm not saying there's no possible bug use happening here, just that it can be hard to be sure in the field sometimes.
     
  9. Omnicron

    Omnicron Stratics Legend
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    Dude my archer hits for 35+hitspell....Im not doing anything other than rocking my crossbow, quiver of rage, suit geared to max damage increase and stam, and 120 archer/tacts/anat.

    Put away your nerf stick, and lock it up.
     
  10. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Lowest resist is Energy which is 63. Examining that person's items I saw no reason why they should be hitting Energy especially considering they were NOT Chiv. And still aren't.

    "One way would be: Talisman for 20%, weapon for 40%, bracelet for 21%, ring for 19%."

    Yes, only I said WITHOUT those, because he wasn't using them all this time to get this damage.
    Today that I saw him again though, he WAS using such items. My report forced him to actually use items instead of exploiting?

    "Put away your nerf stick, and lock it up."

    What part of NO HIT SPELL, NO DI, NO "SUIT GEARED TOWARDS DAMAGE" ETC did you not get?
    If you are legit and doing 35 (Cap) per NORMAL shot, not counting SpellEffect, by sacrificing every item slot for DI items then no quarrel with you.

    Plus... WHAT NERF STICK. Maybe you mean the Exploit Nerf Stick? Sorry I am not putting it away until I stop getting hit for 30-50 by people with no DI-oriented gear or weapon, against my max Resistance.
     
  11. Omnicron

    Omnicron Stratics Legend
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  12. Mythic

    Mythic Guest

    120 tact 120 anat 40 di on crossbow 100 str hits for 21 average without hitspell. 25 at best, i cant imagine how in the world he would do 30+ without mods
     
  13. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Omnicron you got anything constructive to offer apart from Emoticon Art? This is not about nerfing archers -even if I personally disagree with their damage output.
    It's about an exploit.
     
  14. Omnicron

    Omnicron Stratics Legend
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    Actually no, I had nothing to say...so I used that handy dandy icon. Sweet wasnt it.

    I think all this guy did was EXPLOIT your nerves and made you come cry on stratics.
     
  15. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    I admire your efforts to turn this into flaming and trolling. Did I hurt your feelings saying my personal opinion about Archery so much, that you missed the whole point of the thread?

    I'll leave it at that before YOU succeed in exploiting my nerves.
    And what's your agenda anyway? If Archers shouldn't be nerfed, they won't be. I don't run EA so what are you worried so much about? We're not trying to take away your gimpie character's uberness.

    What on Earth does that have to do with exploiting?.. Waste of breath trying to argue with you. :popcorn:
     
  16. Drowy

    Drowy Seasoned Veteran
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    One thing I can say is that the quiver of rage does more damage than any other. I tested it with a friend in an all 70s suit. The quiver of rage did about 11-14 where the other quivers did 8-10 with my magical shortbow. Didnt test if it does much more damage on a crossbow or others tho. And I only had 26% DI on the bow. Maybe more DI makes a difference too.
     
  17. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest


    wtf cant you read ?????

    I got several archers , but if there is an exploit it needs to get fixed , if not all archers will just get tweaked aka nerfed silly
     
  18. Omnicron

    Omnicron Stratics Legend
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    Thats just IT...ever heard of the boy that cried wolf?

    Its just silly that someone gets beat up and he comes here crying about it.

    Maybe they should do something about the Doggie Dexers, or Evil Omen/Para 100% hit combo...But thats just me.

    And sorry S!CK, its been late when ive been posting, having a 2 month old newborn baby keeping you up at night makes you kinda tired. teehee
     
  19. What is a doggie dexer? I've seen several people refer to this in various boards. What sort of template is it?
     
  20. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    It's just someone with ninja on their template and they run around in wolf form.
     
  21. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    Yeah!!!

    That along with overpowered pets are my 2 biggest complaints about PvP right now with moving shot archers coming in a close 3rd.

    1. Remove the -resist spells skill from the evil omen spell
    2. Cut damage done from players pets in half (or possibly remove any specials)
    3. Increase mana cost for using moving shot
     
  22. AZ-

    AZ- Guest

    How is a dog dexxer effective? They can't do specs, they just run around straight meleeing. If you die to that... :sad4:
     
  23. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    "Thats just IT...ever heard of the boy that cried wolf?"

    I know what you're saying. But the problem is, or at least was, quite a real thing before I reported the person. They probably got a fair warning instead of a ban because since, they've been using DI items all over their item slots.

    "Its just silly that someone gets beat up and he comes here crying about it."

    I wish it was like that, that would mean I've only been beaten once- by this person I talk about! rolleyes: :p

    No man, I've got my fair share of being pwnt and the opposite of course. When I see someone I believe exploits I give them 3-4 fights, I examine their equipment(KR makes it too easy) and I watch them fighting other people.. then I run to TC and try to reproduce what they are doing along with a guildie usually.

    Anyway! Hope the baby is fine. :)
     
  24. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Why would you even bother respondig to Omnicron?

    It's not like he has anything constructive to say about the topic. He hasn't interjected anything that would try to prove or disprove what you are saying.

    you may as well have a conversation with a 6 year old or for that matter just talk to the wall.
     
  25. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    I am sure he only thought I was trying to say NERF ALL ARCHERS, tired and all.

    :) Hey I get angry whenever someone says NERF NINJA. There is nothing LEFT TO NERF with Ninja.. :pppp :gun:
     
  26. Omnicron

    Omnicron Stratics Legend
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    LoL. I think PvPrs who think they are teh best thing in UO make me ill for some reason...Other than that, just plain ol LOL.

    And S!CK, the baby is great, just dosnt like sleep for some reason lol.
     
  27. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Omni and everyone else can you explain to me this, before I report another guy..?

    Is it possible for someone to be hitting my 70 Physical for 25-27 with Moving Shot on CompBow WITHOUT DI ITEMS or SpellEffect and 100% Physical Damage?

    They have Bushido, they were not using LS(We were running full speed with him hitting me for 25-27 with MOVING SHOT) almost per second because their CompBow has 40% SSI.
     
  28. Omnicron

    Omnicron Stratics Legend
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    I always seem to hit 18-28ish with moving shot. It could be that they are just 120 archer tact anat. Maybe its hit lower defence or something.
     
  29. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    18-28 Vs 70 Physical, even with Moving Shot's damage penalty?
    Hit Lower Defense has nothing to do with damage.

    I take your word for it, but if that is true don't you think that's a bit over the top?
     
  30. AZ-

    AZ- Guest

    120 arch, 95 DI, 105 tact, 100 anat and I hit for 22 on the run to people with high phys/cold.

    Do you PvP at all?
     
  31. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    What the.....!
    You hit for 22 Damage with Moving shot and don't even have Leg. Anat/Tactics?
    Ok I'll leave that for the end of the post, let me now point the detail I wanted : *95% DI! There you have it*.

    Tell me how to get 95% DI without Stormgip, Talisman, DI on Weapon? Even if you had 30% + 30% on Jewels (Which he did not) it'd be 60%..

    Also would you say that 145 STR from items(he did not chug a STR potion at any time or Grapes of Wrath either, just Totem) and 120 Tact/Anat would give you 28 Moving Shot Damage on their own against max Resistance? I doubt it. That's excessive numbers.

    Guys I'm having a Deja-Vu here (and miraculously those two seem to have the same equipment and never appear both at the same time so far) and your replies so far only confirm that the first and now MAYBE, MAYBE this second guy openly exploit.

    Waiting for your replies before I report this one. I was 100% sure about the other one though.
     
  32. Omnicron

    Omnicron Stratics Legend
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    I guess I dont, but im sure you do and youll tell me how trammish I am and how I dont know anything...

    /wrists
     
  33. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    Some of ya'll are acting like moving shot should be a useless little plink that never helps an archer kill anyone.

    The damage amounts described here for moving shot don't seem excessive to me. Moving shot does not have a damage penalty to my understanding, but it may have a hit chance penalty.

    Someone who has 120 tactics 120 anatomy and is carrying appreciable DI and strength is going to be hitting as hard as an archer possibly can.

    The balance of things is such now that if you pour on DCI and have a high level of weapon skill, archers will miss you 50% of their shots. Templates that have that DCI plus carry high parry are pretty much not killable by an archer at the same development level.

    Screwing with the mana cost of moving shot is certainly not needed. It already takes a template that's designed around it's mana pool or mana regen to be able to make an archer that's meant to fight as a warrior (as opposed with, like, a dedicated dismounter, which can be different).

    Now what sucks is the exploit that lets unscrupulous cheaters fire crossbows as though they are moving-shot weapons. On my shard, the people who do this happen to have horrible attitudes and carry crossbows that are literally too good for other people to be able to get their hands on, and that makes it worse. I check after every publish to see if this one has been quietly fixed. Maybe soon!
     
  34. AZ-

    AZ- Guest

    21 DI on Ring
    20 on Primer on Arms
    10 on Quiver of Rage
    44 on comp bow

    = 95% Damage Inc.

    Moving shot can hit for 35-ish on heavy xbows for 4 mana with lmc. That's a little unbalanced.
     
  35. Vyrquenox

    Vyrquenox Guest

    personally I have an archer but to me its a cowardly way to go about things in a fantasy game to run around in circles shooting at each other anyway. I've never seen the epic painting of people circling and firing bolts and arrows at each other, every account in history i can think of, if the guy with the sword has reached the guy with the bow, the guy with the bow is SOL. Even today, if i managed to reach you somehow with your minigun and i'm still alive and have a katana, you are screwed. That is why archery right now is unrealistic in the game, even Legolas had to pull a knife every once in a while, so its unfantastic as well.

    yep, they were running a hack/exploit, or the numbers are off, I practiced shooting a heavy crossbow with max damage increase and ls on my friend in his all 70s suit and me with with ls with 120 tactics/anatomy/bushido and it took a ls hit to get around the numbers you were saying this guy with no visible damage increase items or ls to get. Part of why pvp is so screwed up, part of why they should have an arena for one on one fights right the heck in trammel for everyone to watch. Not like a thousand other mmorpgs don't have a system run arena. No fun to me to be out in the wilderness and have 5 acne-scarred bucktoothed teenagers run out too fast for the eye to see and whack me down and go LOL U SK LZR and laugh a lot more and run around like they have some kind of fiber optic line to the server spewing hate fillled garbage and zip off away. That would solve a lot of problems if you had an audience that could not interfere in an honest fight, where they could see what was going on. "Hey, if you're so good, come fight me in the arena face to face" reponse would usually be: "uh, nah i've gotta go to the bathroom." And there would be a lot less trolling and ganking as such remarks and abuses of item exploits would be plainly visible if they did go there, and if they refused your challenge, then you would feel a lot less like you just got gang-you know what.
     
  36. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    There are a few people on GL that are using this trick right now..

    Just last night I was hit for a normal shot for 36. No spec/LS or anything, the bow damage was 36. Shouldn't happen with 70 Phys.
     
  37. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    If you figure it out, do submit a bug report :/. Things like this can be a pain in the ass to get worked out, and the people who use it to get a one-up on someone else instead of working to get it fixed are shameless and should be sent down the road.
     
  38. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    "The balance of things is such now that if you pour on DCI and have a high level of weapon skill, archers will miss you 50% of their shots."

    Without Parry you're dead against Archers. I run 45% HCI/DCI, 145 HPs, 120 Weapon skill and I find that lacking against Archery!
    In truth I will not discuss this now, because this is about an exploit and not about how non-cheating Archery behaves.

    "21 DI on Ring 20 on Primer on Arms 10 on Quiver of Rage 44 on Comp Bow = 95% Damage Inc."

    Thanks for proving my point. He (and the other guy) had NONE of those except Quiver Of Rage. If it wasn't Quiver Of Elements. I have to go log and fight him to remember that detail.

    "Moving shot can hit for 35-ish on heavy crossbows for 4 mana with LMC. That's a little unbalanced."

    I cannot comment, I'm interested in getting attention to the exploit instead of proposing a change. Off the record I agree on that, but the HXbow is slow.

    To Vyrquenox : I also ran similar tests on TC and found the results way off from what I received/observed with the two people I reported. It is certain it's an exploit.

    "Just last night I was hit for a normal shot for 36. No spec/LS or anything, the bow damage was 36. Shouldn't happen with 70 Phys."

    So I am not the only one observing a rise in exploiting archers. Thanks for sharing.

    "If you figure it out, do submit a bug report :/."

    I did this on both occasions. One of the two people I reported now runs legit, with DI all over his item slots. I also spoke with a GM today and let them know there's a new exploit with over-cap damage and Archery (Maybe only crossbows?)..

    It's just sad about their attitude too, they don't go discreet about it and instead trash-talk and all. :popcorn:
     
  39. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    Except you're forgetting to factor in HLD.

    I disagree, being able to endlessly spam moving shot is a problem considering that the one balancing factor of archery was that they need to stand still in order to do damage, this is completely erased by moving shot.
     
  40. eolsunder

    eolsunder Guest

    Ok, since people and Dev's haven't listened over the years even after numerous bug and reports.

    Quiver of Rage is bugged! jeesh, as I've said on other posts and sent in bug reports..

    Just look at the quiver..

    physical damage 40%
    cold damage 50%

    thats 90%, not 100%. Like on free shards, sometimes when the damage totals don't equal the regular 100% a bug occurs, adding in extra damage because of the bug. I haven't did any testing on it, but on many free shards where the designers put in items that were buggy like this (special mounts, etc) it caused a damage increase because the damage total didn't equal out to what they were suppose to be (100%).

    I remember on a free shard where fire horses were introduced they also had damage totals equaling 90% instead of 100, and the horses did much more damage than normal.

    Sooooo again, those quivers have been buggy since they were introduced and no one has done one thing about them except give us more "events" to pass the time instead of fixing problems.
     
  41. AZ-

    AZ- Guest

    Why do you think every decent archer runs Rage quiver?
     
  42. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Well no, I was refering to your violin icon, which actually made it seem like you thought you are a PvPr who think he is the best thing in UO.

    How about a reply as to why you agree or disagree instead.
     
  43. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    So we have pin-pointed this to be caused by Quiver Of Rage?

    I saw the guy's equipment last night, he too uses it.
    I am 99% the other guy I reported also used that, or the Elements one but now I see how it must have been Rage.

    Has this been reported properly? Regardless I am reporting it tonight when I get home. It sounds a very reasonable (if reason applies to how bugs occur) explanation.

    Now to find how they manage to shoot Crossbows while using Moving Shot!

    As for the rest of the discussion on over-all Archery balance I must say I agree with Colt, Moving Shot for so low mana ruins balance and factoring HLD as he said means either Parry or Death eventually, if you consider that the person is constantly on the run and you cannot touch them while they shoot at you.
     
  44. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    My Character has 120 mage med eval parry fencing tactics and 45DCI has died to 2 back to back mortals and a pretty much instant moving shot after the mortals.

    So even with Parry you can die pretty fast sometimes, although there are times that they stand and wiff 4 or 5 times in a row as well, this is usually dependant on the person template and items he has on though.