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Are 4 second weapons and beyond balanced?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by puni666, Aug 26, 2012.

  1. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    4s weapons
    War Mace 16-17 range 1 (Crap specials paired with slow swing)
    Composite Bow 13-17 range 10 (Similar to a cyclone's damage just 1s slower and you have to waste mods to balance it)
    Elven Comp Bow 12-16 range 10 (Yeah...It's really useful, but no one realizes it)
    Soul Glaive 18-22 range 11 (Free balance mod, double hit spell, and good damage with max range)

    4.25s weapons...
    Halberd 18-19 range 1 (Slower version of the War Mace)
    Bow 15-19 range 10 (Useful but same issues as the comp bow and a cyclone/glaive quick switch can duplicate the specials of this weapon)

    4.5s weapons...
    Crossbow 18-22 range 8 (Good damage, but slower speed, and you have to waste mods again)
    Yumi 16-20 range 10 (You have to be mounted AND have a good amount of skill points invested to make the specials work)
    Lance 17-18 range 1 (Yeah lets joust.. only thing nice about this is you can toggle dismount while mounted.. unless it's the gargoyle version then it's just junk)
     
    #1 puni666, Aug 26, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2012
  2. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    I would LOVE it if the slow weapons were more balanced in comparison to all the new stuff added. Halberds were always my favorite looking weapon and I always wanted them to be more viable. I don't know what they could do, though. Higher base damage seems to be the most obvious. Hmm.
     
  3. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    you dont need any of those weapons to be balanced.

    you can just disarm and chug then rearm.
    hell, you can go upstairs and make a sandwich between swings with most of those!
     
    virtualhabitat and MalagAste like this.
  4. Felonious Monk

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    I think he means balanced as in its plus "damage/specials" is worth enduring the make a sammy swing speed.
    Not necessarily chugability
     
  5. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    k that makes more sense.
     
  6. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    I'm trying to show the blatant imbalance between any weapon 4s and over vs. a soul glaive. You would think it would all be balanced out either unique specials or mass damage (especially for melee). And possibly the damage range of a glaive is just to high?

    You moderate things we talk about in this game on these forums and you couldn't make sense of this? When was the last time you saw a balanced two handed melee weapon?
     
    #6 puni666, Aug 27, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2012
  7. Felonious Monk

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    Poo is operating on the fly..... *thinks*
    Don't hit any fans......
     
  8. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Most those weapons no one uses mostly because the special's stink for the speed you can get the same specials from something far faster so why bother...

    As for the Lance it only works to dismount if the other person is holding one too. So other than Jousting which almost no one does ... it's useless.
     
  9. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    well thats what i thought he was wanting, 2 handed weapons to be balanced!
    hell, i know id like that!
     
  10. Driven Insane

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    Really this is another adjust throwing weapons thread.

    Which I agree with. They really should sit down and adjust all the weapons from top to bottom. But between school, homework, boy scouts and his paper route I don't think our Dev has time. :grouphug:
     
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  11. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I think they need consider a weapons balance. And an armor balance. Both are out of whack across the board with far too many obviously great and far too many obviously useless item types.
     
    LordDrago, LetheGL, puni666 and 2 others like this.
  12. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    That's my point... every weapon should have a purpose. It can be pure damage, or status effect. If you mix both the damage should be lower (like a kryss). Not just flat out useless like a war mace.
     
  13. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    That's partially what I'm getting at. But changing the glaives doesn't make the other weapons any less useless.
     
  14. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    this is the same as the old argument of leather versus metal armor. simple fix for this is remove the mage armor prop and make it all medable. that way you can where what you want.

    seriously though i would love to rock a macer temp but theres really nothing attractive to it today. they should make a macing special where the crushing blow knocks a random piece of the opponents armor into his back pack. or at least increase the damage to the suits durability.
     
  15. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    if you remember when gargoyles were first introduced noone was playing them. it took some time for the population to come around.
     
  16. Mook Chessy

    Mook Chessy Certifiable
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    Devs...before waiting time with this nerf
    How about you fix resisting spells!
    With 120 Skill points having my elemental resists all drop 10 is crap...curse is the most spammed spell in pvp ATM
    Al least add a cool down or vice me a way to keep my resists up
    I need that hard hitting soul glavie to make you curse spamming mages run!

    The first Dexxie template in years that can stand with a Mage and the crying never Stops
     
  17. Dorinda

    Dorinda Seasoned Veteran
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    Pooni

    WHY DON'T YOU LOG IN AND PLAY

    KK
    thanks
     
  18. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Partially because of the topic I posted (balance). And it's summer time :).
     
  19. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    I'd hardly call the Yumi worthless, but it would be sweet if I they were 1 handed like the throwing weps.
     
  20. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Right, but you also need more than your basic dexer skills to make it deal damage.
     
  21. Quickblade

    Quickblade Lore Keeper
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    I completly agree that soul glaive is way too op reduce the damage by 3 lower and 3 highter to make it something like 15-19 with 4seconds base speed and 1 hand still make it the best weapon in game and dont forget that its not a range of 10 but a range of 11 tiles Puni666 , the highest in game right now !
     
  22. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    My bad 11! Let me edit that! Been a while since I logged in and saw exact numbers. Figured that nothing useful (PVP based) has been put in pub notes since I've been gone. So most of my gripes should still be valid :).

    Maybe they'll add weapons in with their armor type changes. While they're at it get rid of bladeweave. For those of you that don't know what bladeweave is it's a special move that does a random special move at a higher mana cost hence the reason why you don't use the weapons that have it.
     
    #22 puni666, Aug 29, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2012
  23. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    The Range on throwing weapons is based on the throwers Strength btw, no doubt the soul glaive is pretty overpowered, but I honestly think the Cyclone is worse.
     
  24. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    The Soul Glaive is in what way overpowered?
    Compared to some outdated and unused pvp weapons it is very powerful. So what? That is the nature of UO from day one. Nerf the old and bring in the new.
    But If you are trying to tell me that the Soul Glaive is overpowered in pvp in general you are dead wrong.
    A skilled thrower with great gear still has no real edge over an equal caster and that is the bottom line barometer for what is and isnt overpowered in pvp.
    The thrower is ofc currently the best warrior vs warrior template but so what? Its still fairly now so should be hot.
    And you still have the usual army of low-skilled warriors running around the gate doing nothing but chaining disarm while running 120 parry. It quite effectively negates the thrower so whats the issue here?

    I suspect that most of the people whining about throwers and the soul glaive in pvp are either the decent mages that have been used to owning every other template for too long and now are outraged that they cant curse/combo everybody else to death in 8 seconds or the low-skilled mages that are now more easily exposed for what they are.

    Bottom line is that history has proven that if any mage has to cast heal more then once or twice in any 1 vs 1 fight he believes that the other template is way overpowered and should be instantly nerfed lol.
     
  25. Quickblade

    Quickblade Lore Keeper
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    Is it supposed for a weapon to do 250 a hit on a greater dragon in pvp ? Na it shouldnt. I said that even decreasing the base damage by 3 , it would still be the #1 weapon in game so why are you still whinning about ? They have put a cap in pvp for armor ignore of 35 on players, why they wouldnt put a cap in pvp for pets then ? Maybe not 35 but lets say (35x4) = 140 dmg cap , because 250 a hit its way too overpowered. A 5 controls pet shouldnt die in 4 hits in pvp.
     
  26. Driven Insane

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    I take it you stopped playing an archer and are using a thrower now?
     
  27. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    This is what needs changed. Along with the Nerf the old, bring in the new logic.
     
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  28. Vessel the Humakti

    Vessel the Humakti Adventurer

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    My idea considered before, I do not consider balance.

    How is it that makes basic swing speed which arms have the magnification maximum of a damage?
    The maximum damage magnification of 1 Hit/5 sec. arms increases 5 times.
    The arms of 1 hit/2.5 sec are 2.5 times the maximum damage magnifications of this.

    Of course, Soul Glaive should be correct.
     
  29. RuSini Neb

    RuSini Neb Journeyman

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    um throwing has no moving shot, arguments = null , because u need more damage to kill things because if they run from you, u r feeked..... noes ??
     
  30. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    The Soul Glaive has no moving shot. the Cyclone does, which is a throwing weapon as well.
    Might I add, the cyclone's Base damage is the same of a composite bow (an archery moving shot weapon) yet the speed on the Cyclone is only 3 seconds as opposed to the Composite Bow which is 4 seconds....

    weapons in general most definitely need re-balancing

    Even if Throwing did the same or Less damage than any other weapon type in the game, they would still be at an advantage if the character had max hit chance. because if you do not hit... you do no damage. and 5% makes a big enough difference to consider making other ranged weapons more competitive with throwing, and make melee more competitive with both ranged weapon types.
     
  31. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    the cyclone has moving shot.

    i dont see throwers being over powered. U still miss an awful lot even running 50 hci.
     
  32. RuSini Neb

    RuSini Neb Journeyman

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    Did theyc hange the cyclone, because I was almost 100% sure that they had no moving shot at some point...
     
  33. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    I don't think the cyclone was changed "special wise" since SA has been released, it just took a while for anyone to realize how "good/OP" throwing really is, From my stand-point with throwing is OP in both pvm/pvp
    but more so in Pvp (when compared to other weapon types)

    The Cyclone has Moving Shot & Infused Throw - Infused throw = stun/dismount

    The only weapon Throwing has available to it that isn't overpowered IMO is the Boomerang but it's pretty much useless for everything except training throwing, If they ever do re-balance these throwing weapons
    they should at least add a few more weapons to the skill set to give it some variety.
     
  34. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    This thread is not about throwers. It's about the weapons in the upper speed category being weak.
     
  35. Hell's Ironworks

    Hell's Ironworks Seasoned Veteran
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    - War axe ( bleed , armor ignore ) 3,25
    - Diamond mace ( concussion , crushing ) 3
    - mace ( concussion - disarm ) 2,75

    And there are a couple other nice mace wep depending on the situation. Also , someone correct me if this has changed but macing use to drop durability on armor alot faster than the other combat skill weps.

    The fact that we now have alot of available ways to add ssi other than on the weapon itself should help the popularity of other slower weapons. The thing is, and i could be wrong , but it seems that using alot of SSI on slow weps drops the HCI greatly.
     
  36. Doubleplay

    Doubleplay Lore Keeper
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    The balance issue is a tough one. I know why the balance does not work. I started trying to explain the statistics, but the explanation gets so convoluted that it would not be worth the time for me to edit it for a post.

    To give a succinct explanation with no math, the problem would not exist if we all had 100% hit chance. However, as hit chance decreases, the time not swinging becomes extremely important when a slow weapon is used against a fast weapon. In eight seconds, a 4 swing speed weapon at 50% hit chance will swing twice. In order to skip the math, imagine how much damage the slow weapon wielder must survive during the eight seconds while receiving 6 plus blows from a 1 swing weapon at the same hit chance percentage. Perhaps someone out there with more literary skills that I can prove the point that the lower the hit chance, the more unbalanced weapons become. Simply said, at 100% hit chance, the weapons are balanced, at less that 100% hit chance, the advantage increasingly goes to the faster weapon.
     
  37. Vexxed

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    Well.. i'm only responding to your one single post quoted above, but your not totally right. Decreasing hit chance only gives faster weapons the advantage if an attack can be made. If your on a melee character it's pretty easy to simply move a little bit & not allow your opponent to swing at the cap of 1 swing every 1.25 seconds ( 5 tics). If your using a heavier / slower weapon then you simply "Joust" & only allow blows to be traded when your Heavy slower weapon is READY to swing... Thus your trading blows at your slower speed & doing more dmg.. Also, there are thresholds for causing slips with Bandage healing etc they are quite important in PvP. Anyway.... lots of factors & it changes dramatically with Ranged weps. & interuptions for mages etc.. heh

    On a Side note I will say I'm fond of the Soul Glaive... I made a stupidly effective Wolf Form ninjitsu Gargy Thrower for TC1 that was all durability and RAW 30+ dmg reg hits... Heh good times... Sa-Vok etc....
     
    #37 Vexxed, Sep 9, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2012
  38. Doubleplay

    Doubleplay Lore Keeper
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    You are right about the tactics to use with different weapons. But this is proof of the main premise, that weapons are unbalanced. The point of my post was to suggest why they are unbalanced in the first place. The damage range per hit was put in place to balance out the swing speed in delivering the hit. Unfortunately there are other factors that also affect the damage per second delivered, one of them being Hit Chance that are not considered in the formula. Your example is one tactic that tries to balance the hit generation to match the speed of the slower weapon. Essentially this means that both weapons will swing at the same slow speed and the higher damage per hit weapon will always be the best. It may be that weapon balance is unattainable from a design standpoint.
     
  39. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Exactly... It should be up there with the redo of non med armors.
     
  40. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    No offense but this thread is now about a few low-skilled pvpers whining for a nerf to Throwing.

    And btw, your OP only had one weapon highlighted in red. A Throwing weapon. So please dont act like you didnt know where this was going :)

    Once again I will state the obvious. In todays UO if any type of mage/caster has to cast heal more then once in a 1 vs 1 he believes that the template he is fighting is way overpowered. Sadly, that is the real issue here.

    And if a melee warrior has issues with throwing he just isnt playing his template right or is to stubborn to adapt.
     
  41. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    i see a pretty good mix of pvp templates in the field atm. i wouldnt call anyone of them op'd.
     
  42. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    It's highlighted red because everything needs to be brought up to par with the new updated weaponry. Thanks.
     
  43. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I think you are right that there is going to be an non complete balance. But that said, there is much that can be done to bring older and less effective weapons up to par. Especially in the case of two handed, and older weapons with garbage specials (war mace I am looking at you).
     
  44. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    Goldberg is afraid that his best template will get fixed. I only assume its his best because hes acting like it's not in need of adjustment, and a be all
    end all if it were to be on par with all other weapons in UO.

    Puni is a thrower and is pointing out whats wrong with it.

    I know a lot of bad dexers are worried that their skillful template might be tweaked but lets be honest ..you hit for close to Armor Ignore damage
    with no mana being used. It does need either a higher swing time, or lower base damage. How could these weps have that kind of swing speed
    plus that kind of damage. It does need to be adjusted without a doubt.
     
    #44 Speaking the Truth, Sep 20, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2012
  45. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    sort of a moot point. noone plays this game anymore.
     
  46. mspossi

    mspossi Journeyman
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    try using a yumi imbued well, that you will get a 70% damage per turn, and with increasing speed, tell me what you can achieve.:gun:
     
  47. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    Yumis don't have static damage, personally I think they're over rated and would rather Armor Ignore. Yes they have the potential to do so much damage, but more often than not they end up being a let down.
     
  48. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    And they require a large amount of skill points to use effectively. Being mounted is part of it too.. Being on my gargoyle I can put just about anyone on foot in 4 seconds max. So be it the first time I swing at you or the third time I swing at you I'll foot you and you can no longer deal massive damage with it.
     
    #48 puni666, Sep 20, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2012
  49. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    Not even talking about yumis, I think the most important part is what was said in the OP.

    No one who is being honest can disagree with what you said.

    I really do think it needs to be looked at.
     
  50. Arcades

    Arcades Sage
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    How do you dismount on a thrower besides being on foot and using a bola? I can never get the cyclone special to proc stun/dismount