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Are Gargoyle Throwers Over-Powered?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Llewen, Sep 13, 2011.

?

Are gargoyle throwers over-powered?

Poll closed Oct 11, 2011.
  1. No, they could actually us a buff.

    26 vote(s)
    27.1%
  2. No, they are fine as they are.

    43 vote(s)
    44.8%
  3. Yes, they are over-powered.

    27 vote(s)
    28.1%
  1. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Just a straight poll to offer your opinion. If you vote that they are over-powered, please offer some suggestions as to how they could be balanced.

    edit: That would be "use" a buff, not "us" a buff... :(
     
  2. Slayvite

    Slayvite Certifiable
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    Aww, did one beat you up?
    So instantly they must be overpowered. boo hoo!!

    Far more immediate problems that trying to get another skill nerfed.

    :talktothehand:
     
  3. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
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    would be nice if they could use a shield without a penalty, hey a guy can dream
     
  4. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Well since a soul glaive is a throwing weapon I'd say throwing's over powered a bit. The base damage is to much for the speed someone can throw it at especially with 120 tact/anat and max DI. They generate enough damage with out using special moves to kill people. I say drop the base damage and add more weapons with different specials. They need a bladeweaving weapon! I mean really who doesn't!?!? Probably the most useful special move ever...
     
  5. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
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    im all for more weps and specials, but bladeweaving? its unpredictable, nothing like needing an AI or dbl strike and you get a block. hehe
     
  6. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Right over your head... Just trying to point out how pointless that crap is :p. We COULD have all sorts of different weapons to choose from, but they put that dumb s*** in the game because they ran out of ideas.
     
  7. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Yeah I don't think all the throwing weapons are imbalanced, so I'd lean toward the skill is a little too powerful.
     
  8. Madrid

    Madrid Slightly Crazed
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    First it was tamers are over power with their Greater Dragons, then it was Sampires and now it's Throwers!:talktothehand: :next: :pie: :yell: :lick:
     
  9. SixUnder

    SixUnder Legendary Assassin
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    people just dont know how to fight them.

    there is range penalties for HCI and DMG for all 3 of there weapons.

    if you stay as close as you can to a thrower, you will get hit if your lucky maybe once every 15 seconds. and that is no joke.

    get close to them, then its nullifed.

    gargs could use a buff, you cant use parry, still, even after they were suppose to fixed it with a throwing weapon. so right there, besides dci a gargoyle with throwing has nothing, no dodge at all, no parry nothing.

    disarm, game over. stay on top of them. right in their face. works every time.

    the penalities for throwing are horrendous if one is to actually read up on them and know how to defeat the throwing.

    sure its powerful, but you as a enemy can make it weak sauce too. useless if you do it right.
     
  10. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
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    sounds the poll is too generalized, are we talking pvm,pvp,or both? my vote was for pvm
     
  11. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    IDK to me the real difference is in arti power. Gargs do not get anything that can get their total stm up without a big cost. Imagine considering a no arti suit for a dexer just to get the biggest stm bonus. Simply put the DPS is nice but it comes at a big suit debacal. just try to suit a thrower and youll see what Im saying.
     
  12. Picus of Napa

    Picus of Napa Slightly Crazed
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    Doesn't all kill rule all?
     
  13. icm420

    icm420 Seasoned Veteran
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    For me it's the damage in pvm. The pvp aspect I can deal with, I know the range deal with the "sweet spot" and I know disarm sometimes works (most have wrestling now). But the 250 damage to a barracoon is bull****. I die in despise, come back and the thing is dead. That takes about 2 minutes. Wasn't the goal of "beefing" up the champ bosses so that you couldn't kill it in 2 minutes? UO pvm is so easy to begin with that I fail to see the reason that we have to continously increase the amount of damage we do to everything. Just my 2 cents however, I refuse to ever play a gargoyle so I have no first hand knowledge of it. (they are so freaking ugly and I refuse to alter items to try a character out.)
     
  14. soulstoner

    soulstoner Guest

    I dunno but from what I've witnessed here and there I think I may want to be one someday ;) despite the unattractive outward appearance.
     
  15. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Honestly the issue with throwers comes from 3 or 4 things -

    1. 5 bonus racial hit chance, capping hit chance at 50%

    This doesnt sound like a giant problem, but it really is. It makes them hit an opponent with capped out dci much easier than other races, making hitting more reliable. Mathematically it doesn't seem huge, but in practice, it is key.


    2. As puni mentioned, the base damage from the soul glaive is so high for its speed, that you can make a char completely based on defense, and just chuck a soul glaive without special moves and win on occasion.


    3. The fact that 2 weapons (cyclone/soul glaive) give all the special moves any thrower would really need (AI/Mortal/Dismount/Para/Moving Shot) and for their speed, have amazing base damage

    4. Do not compare to an archer. A thrower may not be able to have double hit spell, but they can put dci/hci/hld/dmg/hit spell on a weapon, fortifying their suit, which allows their suit to cap out on stats, regens, and damage. Thus, making the thrower a more defensive and heavily modded char, with above average hit ability, with great base damage. Many archers biggest enemy was another archer or dexer because they typically sacrificed some defense for more offense. A thrower can take care of both with a simple template, easy imbued suit, and a handful of macros.


    1b - Racial flying. i don't care what any timer says, going from grounded to flying is much faster than another race going from grounded to mounted on an ethy. They can fly in between bleed and poison ticks, and actually manage to get flying through a typical mage combo that would otherwise disrupt any other attempt at mounting.


    /End
     
  16. LordGenesis

    LordGenesis Adventurer

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    Sounds to me like someone got himself and his pets beat up by a thrower who knows that they are doing.

    Anyone who says Archers have a disadvantage over throwers obviously doesnt have an ABC archer.

    I have an ABC archer thats capped out on all mods and stats with his suit.

    I also have a capped out thrower.

    I prefer playing the Archer to be honest. He just has more control to me.

    Throwers are only "overpowered" to those who dont know how to combat them... wanna stop getting hit? Close the range between you. That simple.
     
  17. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I have a thrower - i abuse it too and know the tricks. I also know how to combat them, but thats 1v1. In a large fight, you cant stay in close range with all of them.
     
  18. LordGenesis

    LordGenesis Adventurer

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    Hehehe true in large fights its difficult... but then again in large fights one would expect to get pwned !
     
  19. Elric_Soban

    Elric_Soban Babbling Loonie
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    Seriously.
     
  20. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    I don't know what large fights you have been in, but I don't expect to get "pwned" in large fights.

    But in large fights you have 2-3 gargs chain dismounting does make it difficult.
     
  21. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    This raises an interesting issue. One of the issues with gargoyles is that when they are "dismounted", they aren't actually grounded. They are still flying, but only slowed down, so as soon as the dismount timer expires, they are instantly at top flying speed again with no penalty of any sort. This is, in my opinion, one of their biggest defensive advantages. If "dismounting" them actually took them out of flight, that would make a huge difference, and I wouldn't have a problem with the faster "mount" time.
     
  22. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I think you are confused. When you dismount a flying gargoyle it does ground them, they are walking on the ground. And to re-fly, you do have to hit your "fly macro", it won't instantly go off a timer.

    Regardless, that ability to go from grounded to flying is much faster than a human summoning its ethy



    maybe you are thinking of the sleep spell? i dunno
     
  23. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Thought the HCI penalty was negated by having 100 Dex or higher?

    From UO guide.

    Underthrown - If, while equipped, a weapon has a maximum range of six tiles, and a player throws at a player two tiles away (too close) they have a Hit Chance penalty of 12%, but no damage reduction.
    Perfect - Maximum range of six tiles, thrown a distance of four tiles. No Hit Chance penalty, no damage reduction
    Overthrown - Maximum range of six tiles, thrown a distance of six tiles. No Hit Chance penalty, but 47% damage reduction

    Close Quarters Combat

    Even though they may be meant to be thrown, these weapons all have sharp, mean edges on them - perfect for catching an unsuspecting melee fighter off guard. A player’s Dexterity and throwing skill equal to Grandmaster or higher can compensate for the hit chance penalty. Close quarters combat with a throwing weapon will no longer require you to have the swordsmanship skill to negate hit chance penalty.
     
  24. Klapauc

    Klapauc Sage
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    From my experience with my thrower on siege which is never at cap hci, there is no damage penalty and only a very small hci penalty if any at all for close range. Using cyclone as melee weapon alot there, but only in pvm.
     
  25. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I'm going by what I see in the enhanced client. In the enhanced client they continue to fly, and I see no pause to start flying again when the dismount timer is up. But probably that is just one of the EC's graphical glitches. I wasn't aware that they had to enter fly mode again after being dismounted. So yes, I'm very likely confused... not unusual that... :)

    That's why I haven't voted in this poll even though I started it. I haven't spent much time playing a gargoyle, so while I know they appear to be very strong both in pvm and pvp, I don't understand the mechanics of it, so I don't know if it's just a matter of me not knowing how to handle them, or if there is a real issue here.
     
  26. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Oh yea, theres an issue, its not a giant issue, but its an issue.
     
  27. Charin

    Charin Journeyman

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    Considering a npc garg thrower can hit me off screen and take half my life in one hit.. and a PC garg thrower can do the same... yes.. nothing should be able to hit you offscreen. None of my spells can hit you offscreen unless its explosion and i had cast it on you before you ran away.
     
  28. Gargoyle Throwers are fine.

    It's the human and elf throwers we should be concerned about.
     
  29. KingHen

    KingHen Seasoned Veteran
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    YAY! I got to vote!!

    ;)
     
  30. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    PVM- yes, PVP, no clue
     
  31. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    i think they need a buff..
    only 3 weapons to choose from.. yes the specials are pretty specific to pvp but still more choices would be nicer.

    also needs a 3.5 weapon 16-20 dmg to fill in the hole..
    the specials need to be disarm and crushing blow.. to go with the pvp theme.



    i dont see how everyone saying they are too powerful, i think an archer has more power still.
     
  32. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    how would this differ from say 2 or 3 stealth archers chaining dismount?
     
  33. red sky

    red sky Sage
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    I always laugh when people use pathos to appeal to an audience instead of logos. You're post is mainly jargon and doesn't propose exactly why you believe what you have said.
     
  34. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    You and your antagonizing! Ranged disarm... yes that's what we need! May as well make it a disarm/running shot weapon with soul glaive base damage and 3s speed.
     
  35. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Obviously it would be coded so that disarm has a max range of 1 or 2 tiles.
     
  36. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Obviously!
     
  37. SixUnder

    SixUnder Legendary Assassin
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    trust me bud. maybe you wil hit 1/5 throws on same tile. unless rng favors you.
     
  38. SixUnder

    SixUnder Legendary Assassin
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    agree but i will say, unless you got money you arent throwing a soul glaive fast. they have a base of 4.0. The thing is you can put SSI on your suit and weps, and pump up your stamina where you can swing them fast.

    4.0 swing is about as bad as it gets, lol artis make it move a bit quicker
     
  39. red sky

    red sky Sage
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    Yeah, I forgot about that extra 5 hci thing that makes the cap 50% for gargs. I was getting hit around 10 times in a row with a 70 dci suit and wep equip. I was wondering wtf is going on. Especially when the hits are 25-26 a pop.
     
  40. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    The really funny thing here is if you are getting killed to a PvM char.....
     
  41. Lord X

    Lord X Sage
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    Thing with the 50% HCI cap is that there is only two ways to get to it.

    1. Using the Void Infused Kilt, which is non medeable. AND using the faction Primer of Arms or the Conjurer's Trinket.
    2. Imbuing HCI on the wep itself. Which is fine, but its not great to have the bonus of not having to put Balanced property on, just to replace it with HCI.

    Basically in PvP the thing is vs an archer at least is archers do half or close to it of the damage that a reg shot of a thrower. I am in the process of making a Red Bush Thrower for this purpose, and I already have a Red Bush Archer, but want the extra damage , esp when facing other throwers.
     
  42. Nails

    Nails Journeyman
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    Only the dog versions are overpowered
     
  43. aoLOLita

    aoLOLita Sage
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    If you PvP and lack the time or gp to build a Thrower, then yes, they are over-powered :)

    There is always a PvP minority that tries to ruin a template or feature - not out of a sense of fair play - but out of spite and petty envy.

    There was little enough reason to play a Gargoyle race character other than an Imbuer before the Devs gave a little love to Throwers:)