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Are Illegal 3rd Party Programs Killing UO?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Tycolby, Dec 16, 2008.

?

Do Illegal 3rd party programs hurt UO?

Poll closed Dec 31, 2008.
  1. Yes they hurt the game

    121 vote(s)
    68.4%
  2. No they dont hurt the game

    52 vote(s)
    29.4%
  3. I am not old enough to vote

    4 vote(s)
    2.3%
  1. Tycolby

    Tycolby Guest

    Just wanted to see what the PPL of UO have to say by voting.
     
  2. Nylan

    Nylan Adventurer
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    Regardless what people seem to think, not everyone used illegal 3rd party programs.
    Anything that is not approved that gives people an advantage over others does hurt the game.
    It does not matter if it is to gain skills, give them an edge or helps them dupe items, it does still hurt the game.
     
  3. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    What about "They hurt the game, but UO is unkillable"?
     
  4. J0KING

    J0KING Guest

    Actually had to vote no... it isnt the programs that are hurting the games... it is the players that are using them.

    I will have to agree that there are some aspects of the game that can be very, very, very, very, monotonous and boring *remembers working cartography*... but that does not give the players the right to cheat or take shortcuts. Also, if a player has to use a program to get the advantage over another player in PVP... the problem lies with the player that chooses to cheat...

    In every aspect there will always be that percentage of people who cheat or break the rules to get the advantage over everyone else... most societys have a consequence for that percentage that gets caught... in UO... well... there really was no true permanent consequence. The team that we have now is at least addressing some of the issues and doing a better job at it then has been done in the past.
     
  5. You know I played almost two years {1999-2000} before I knew of any programs that could help me in game, my first, I found, was Illegal and I quickly deleted it when I found I could lose my account. Thank God someone pointed the way to Stratics where I learned of programs I could use.
     
  6. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    This is a double edged discussion. Do all "Illegal Programs" hurt UO? No, take UO Wedding for example it was deemed Illegal not long ago but was a rather useful tool for the RP community.

    I think there needs to be a defining line between a "Cheating Tool" and a harmless aid. Something the UOPro program was a bout.
     
  7. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
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    I agree with "Drink"......it's pure laziness, and the ability to "need" to cheat to get anywhere....and where better than the confines of you own little cyber world.

    These programs aren't killing UO, hurting the enjoyment for others, but not killing it. See, when some loser has the ability to accumulate a load of whatever and gain off otherts, that's where it messes it up for others.

    Honestly though, I'm sure there's low life bottom feeders in most of the games out there....so, we can gripe all we want, as long as websites and nerds provide the info to cheat, it'll never die.


    later
     
  8. Magneto2272

    Magneto2272 Guest

    i voted yes, but im split 65 - 35...

    it is no secret that there are a handful of skills that are insanely repetitive that gain not in days but in months and years. i dont feel its a problem to get a helping hand with that.

    HOWEVER, when i hear and sometiems see people fighting in pvp who are running 4, 5, 6 combat related illegal scripts that unequivocally give an advantage, ive got to draw the line. scripts that instantly cast a heal or apply a bandage. scripts that chain spells. scripts that instantly drink potions and then heal/bandage. scripts that eat apples. scripts that remove curse. scripts that debuff other then buff self. scripts that hide-shoot-stealth-dog form. scripts that jump you off your mount, dismount another player and remount at the first available nanosecond. these and numerous other advantage giving scripts should not only be vigorously policed, but be an insta-perma-ban for those who use them. if that means 50,000 less players or more but leaves many more who dont cheat, so be it. id rather play with 500 people who are on the same playing field with no mechanical advantages that with 50,000 others who do.

    i mean isnt it enough that there are already existant glaring imbalances... and these people want to stack it up even more?!?!?!??????
     
  9. Gellor

    Gellor Guest

    I'd say a nice solid "depends":coco:

    I think drink hits it solidly on the head in my opinion.

    I think the "killers" are the ones that have a DIRECT impact upon other players such as speed hacks, dupes, farming, and similar type things.

    Things such as skill gain, bod sorting/filling, UO Assist style enhancements, Map enhancements have no bearing upon others in the game.

    I've seen the "complaint" about skill gains but I have yet to see a valid argument on how one guy having GM cartography(pick any skill) has any impact upon another players.

    I would argue the bigger killer is all the bugs and exploits that are in the game... those that are not even addressed.
     
  10. Sneaky Que

    Sneaky Que Babbling Loonie
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    http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html

    Round 50-75k according to them. Thats accounts though, not people.
     
  11. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Anyone can put up a site. There's 2 of those sites. In ancient times, they based their numbers on Press Releases.

    Then industry standards changed, and subscription numbers became "trade secrets," unless you're WoW and have so many that you feel free to brag. Now it's not clear where those numbers come from.

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/warhammer-time

    Last official word we have: 100k and "wildly profitable." Believable because it was a spontaneous utterance, and unnecessary to the conversation...It was extra, volunteered information. Given this, the fact that EA (according to M. Jacobs) wanted to shut UO down before they basically gave it to Mythic to manage is absolutely inexplicable to me.

    -Galen's player
     
  12. chuck noris killed UO.
     
  13. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    Are you sure? I could have sworn he taught me how to track.
     
  14. laurlo

    laurlo Guest

    I would say the lack of enforcing the illegal policy on them is what would hurt the game..
     
  15. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Strange, whenever I see Chuck Norris gatesitting at Luna, I say "Thank you, Chuck Norris" as I walk past....:hahaha::hahaha:
     
  16. mr.blackmage

    mr.blackmage Guest


    correct. The programs don't hurt the game, they are simple bits of code. It's the lack of any sort of rule enforcement that encourages the use.
     
  17. _zigzag_

    _zigzag_ Sage
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    Please....pleeeease be very aware this thread has the potential to either be productive, or be removed.

    If you reply in this thread, choose your words carefully.

    Remember..."Activities that are against any games' Terms of Service or the User Agreement are prohibited from being promoted or advertised on our network. This includes, but is not limited to, third party programs, game item sales for real world goods, power leveling services, and/or links to such items."
     
  18. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    - aye.

    I voted, Tycolby & _zigzag_.
    I give you all 1 wild guess as to which way.
    There are only two choices, as I am of age.
    ;)
    Peace
     
  19. Der Rock

    Der Rock Guest

    YES, and the Dev still support scripter more then other player in my thoughts.
    all this new consumables with timers here and delays there, the scripter will implement all these in their scripts fast.
    i know,i know, some people can handle 100 key´s simultaneously :wall:
     
  20. BadManiac

    BadManiac Guest

    Actually considering how broken and immensely repetitive a lot of tasks are in UO I think third party programs are at least in some part responsible for UO still running.

    Without scripting we wouldn't have nearly the same availability of bods, ingots, logs, community collection rewards, runic kits and so on and so on. All helping to bring prices down in the insanely inflated economy that would have otherwise made it virtually impossible for new players and non billionaires to have a sporting chance.

    The community surrounding the most popular third party software have multiple times tried to approach the UO developers about getting it approved, and letting the UO devs having control over it's allowed and disallowed capabilities. But so far it has fallen on deaf ears.

    Duping is killing UO a lot more than any illegal third party application ever will. But the devs seem to be onto that and are continuously finding way's to make old dupes worthless, monk robes, replicas, mass bannings and deletions of multi hundred billion gold accounts.
     
  21. HD2300

    HD2300 Certifiable
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    Lack of content is the problem.

    If the game is fun, UO would retain its customers and gain even more by word of mouth. When customers are occupied and having fun, 3rd party programs are irrelevant.

    Content is king. Waiting 6 months for another "EPIC" event means that there is another 6 months where things are stagnant and UO will lose more customers. FACT.

    Something easy would be a new champ spawn area where they change the monsters in it each month. Imagine a changeling spawn, that would be crazy.
     
  22. Heartseeker

    Heartseeker Guest

    No.

    They can actaully simplify and enhance a cumbersome system.

    But I am sure the thought police will disagree though.
     
  23. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    They have been in game since what 00 maybe even 99?

    Thats quite an assumption to make.

    No!
     
  24. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    Since 98 or before. When I first started playing (July 98), one of the things I was warned about was the use of third party programs which gave the user an unfair advantage over others. I was warned about two in particular, one of which is accepted and commonly used today (UOA), but then was worthy of instant-banning.

    So I have to go with no.

    But the lack of enforcement/controls does hurt the game.
     
  25. 100% agreed. I voted no ...
     
  26. Anakena

    Anakena Seasoned Veteran
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    I didn't vote at all because if these programs hurt the game, they are only a part of the problem.

    Some bad options taken in the past (like having an item game with non decayable items) play a big role on the way UO evolved.

    The lack of ingame support and the inpunity of the cheaters are also a big nail in the coffin. AoS made ghost cams possible and they were abused. A lot of people left the game due to them. Not because the others were cheating, but because they apaprently could do it freely.
     
  27. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    I beg to differ. In a competitive environment, people cheating makes all the difference in the world.

    Just look at what is left of UO's PvP population. Almost everyone left PvPing in UO is running at least 1 illegal program.
     
  28. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    Well said.
     
  29. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    Let me paste a quote from a long departed player, who expressed his thoughts on how running skill gain and bod filling scripts does actually give you an advantage over someone who is not running ILLEGAL programs.

    'Using illegal programs for simple things that are a hassle such as stacking shurikens into a belt, or making bolas...and the time it saves me DOES give me an advantage in pvp, while I’m out throwing bolas or shurikens at people, I might be still stacking shurikens manually or making bolas and not even have half the time I normally do to pvp.

    Obviously this is a mostly item based game anymore..and to me items>rl skills. So when people are out turning in bod's at the speed of light..or farming the fletching quest in heartwood, in my opinion this is far worse than running a speed hack, sure they might be able to zip off your screen when you get them redlined, but 9 out of 10 times they're running because of that elitesauce bow you made from your heartwood fletching kit, that you cheated in order to get, or maybe that dexer is running because all the elite mods in your suit (dci) and he can't hit you for crap. Which of course you never would have been able to fit those fey leggings or aof into your suit if it wasn't for the fact that you run bod scripts in order to get barbed kits to make those elite armor pieces in the first place."



    Cheating, no matter the type, hurts everyone. Especially when it is allowed to go on for years and years thanks to a worthless Dev team.
     
  30. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
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    Yes, some illegal 3rd party programs hurt UO.
    No, not all of them are bad - some of them help UO.
    No, none of them cause enough hurt to come close to killing UO.
    No, the programs are not the worst part of the problems related to them - it's the people.
     
  31. Honestly if something isn't allowed then it's bound to "Ruin" the experiance for someone plain and simple. Things aren't made illegal cause people don't want you to have fun, things are made illegal cause normally it means that it hurts someone or yourself and takes away enjoyment of the experiance as a whole.
     
  32. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    So we can basically assume from the vote that roughly 1 in 3 forumers use third party programs which aren't approved. ;)
     
  33. Oh, I wouldn't **quite** put it that way. I would say 1 in 3 agree that illegal items are NOT causing harm but people are.

    I voted no, use only 1 approved one and zero, nada, no illegal items. <shrug>
     
  34. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    I don't see how someone can think some of the illegal programs out there aren't hurting the game. Unless they have a strange cognitive disconnect and don't associate things like duping, speedhacks and unattended skillgains as anything which in any way advantages a few players by disadvantages other players, or affects their overall experience of the game.

    I find it far easier to buy that some people either use illegal ones, borderline illegal ones, or have friends who they know do, or sometimes accept help or items or gold they know to be questionably obtained from said friends, than that people seriously rationally believe that duping and speedhacks and such don't harm the game. I really don't buy it. Requires far more brain-twisting than the first explanation.
     
  35. Tycolby

    Tycolby Guest

    You can not blame the ppl for cheating when its encourged by the enviroment that they grew up in. Everywhere you look in this country now its all about the quick fix, get rich quick, and get it right now. That Day our leaders decided that we didnt have to work for a living was the day that ended American Values and promoted Laziness, Cheating, and Lying.
     
  36. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    No, you can still blame them for it. All you did was provide a cultural analysis of why people are inclined towards cheating. That doesn't mean they're victims programmed to cheat and have no choice in the matter.

    I would agree, for instance, that consideration for others is no longer really a stressed or enforced value in our culture. So when someone plays a game and has the option of cheating in a way that is totally inconsiderate of others, you will find players who do it.

    How that translates into, you can't blame them, because of their culture.... I don't know.

    The players are to blame, but, what IS true, is that if there is not sufficient regulation and enforcement of existing rules, cheating will become the norm. That's true in any system really. (Didn't we just have some big real life example of the same thing with the mortgage crisis? It was the same idea... real life GM's not answering pages or even being actively told not to answer pages about funny business in the money markets, hehe.)
     
  37. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    But where talking about illegal 3rd party programs. Duping has nothing to do whith 3rd party programs it has to do with ingame bugs. And the speed hacking illegal program is just one way u can accomplish that but there are many other ways to do it whiout using speed hacking. KR is one of them and easiest. So where talking about scripting programs,macro etc which can be accomplished whiout said programs if u knew a little bit of programming.

    I voted no. Simple of fact people who use uoassit have a advantage over non uoassit users when they can write a macro to do things for them :) Click 1 key and it runs automatic. Kr mark one quest items it marks them all and makes automatically till the amount is done 2d cant do it. So advantage over people. Well you know what am getting at no matter if u use illegal or legal program they will always have a advantage. A person playing 3 hours and another playing 2 hours a day the 3hour person has a advantage. So this is not a question of advantage it's that the script programs did not pay ea enough money for them able to be used :) Especialy that there free unlike the 15 dollars for uoassit. But either way thats my thought on it. Dupers,griefters,scammers those I believe hurt the game the most.
     
  38. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Lets not forget that many of us where raise during the konomi codes,gamegenie,game shark,game code days to cheat through the game cause it's fun. And when people play the game I believe we all play it to have fun in everyones own way. Well some play it to harass people in game life cause they cant do it in real life but thats another story.
     
  39. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    There has been currency duping in every game I have EVER played, single player or multiplayer. And yes ANY cheat ultimately comes down to manipulating game bugs or holes in the game code or exploitable areas of how the code works (like if it stores character data player side, or speed is reported from the player's computer, or whatever). So what? I've never known anyone who wasn't using a third party program set up to perform the actual cheats. I'm sure at some point way back it's a few hackers figuring out how to do it and then writing up a little basic program to do it for other players. But it seems almost semantical or rhetorical to make that distinction.

    The fact that not every single possible way to hack the game can be explicitly banned by EA does not mean that doing something that YOU KNOW lets your character perform things that are not normal, regardless of what program is helping you to do that, then c'mon. You know what you're doing. Even if you "accidentally" somehow find out that some program you're running causes you to move at 300% speed in the game, and you continue to use it, in most games with any enforcement at all, you'd get smacked. I had a friend in WOW whose installation got bugged and somehow he was stuck attached to a griffon, the kind that fly you over long distances in game. And he was running around on it for a couple hours, not knowing how to fix the problem --- and maybe taking advantage of it a little to get some things done quicker than normal. And he got suspended for it. He wasn't shocked, even if you could argue maybe it was sorta kinda unfair. But taking a totally dim view of the use ofa nything that lets you perform illegally in game and just making a clear message that it isn't tolerated is the only way to stop it from proliferating.

    This wasn't a shock, as far as I can see anytime the issue of scripting or cheating or third party progs comes up, you're always almost #1 to argue any defense of all of those things. The latest flimsy straw seems to be "well it's people using game exploits not third party programs" (so apparently that's not cheating...?) and then "well everyone wants an advantage and will try to get one whether using third party programs or not" (so um... scripting and duping or speedhacks are all okay, learn 2 play?)
     
  40. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    So what? I also watched violent movies and played violent videogames. So it's okay if I assault your mom?
     
  41. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    How can you equate those 2 toghether. Even though if you watch the news violent games tv shows make kids kill people so try to leave the knife at home.
     
  42. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    Consdering what's left of the ever dwindling UO population, it comes as no surprise that you get the same clowns defending cheating every time a thread is made about cheating. After all most of the remaining UO population are cheaters.

    And they always have the same tired excuses- it's the games fault, it doesn't hurt anyone else, etc etc.

    Pathetic. :loser:
     
  43. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    - I think a lot of the people saying "no," might also say that:
    Bombs don't kill people, people kill people.

    While others might argue that both bombs and people can kill people (& the people using bombs can kill more people, much easier).

    @Tycolby's latest: Yeah, perhaps people have started thinking about themselves a bit more and about others a bit less in recent times. But just because an environment might promote something does not mean people can go without blame for indulging themselves in a manner that harms others. Enron got away with cheating for awhile (I bet they even used programs rather than doing it all by hand.. illegal programs that helped people kill Enron & hurt many innocents that were involved); then that cheater apparently had a heart attack before he was sentenced. People in prison still get more prison time when they get caught murdering another inmate (probably using an illegal 3rd party shiv; oh no, it's not the shiv's fault - but the person / accomplice that created and gave the murderer that shiv, sure did help make the kill easier..). Just because people occasionally get murdered in prison does not make it right to murder people in prison. See what I'm sayin'?

    And a further edit: This has already been decided by one major government and the answer was: Yes. That happened when WoW won a multi-million dollar lawsuit against an illegal 3rd party program that was proven to have helped kill a bit of WoW.
     
  44. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Well because you seem like youre a griefter you must be a grifeter or scammer. I defend the game from self holy men, and griefters, And if you look at the above post im way down in line from being the first to defend anything. I gave you explainations thats all if you want to look in deeper meaning to it then thats because you are a griefter and see cheaters around every corner.
     
  45. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    I say it's the people fault. The game is that a game. people who unattend dont bother being in the forums because well there not here because they are unattended correct? Once again I defend from the griefters as there are um hunters, I am a griefter hunter. So If one innocent person gets caught up in the hunt then the griefter is the villan and one of the reasons we have a dwindling population.
     
  46. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Or using a illegal third party hand to kill people. Or using a illegal party foot to crush the wind pipe. Or a illegal party spoon to smash through the eye. Or using a illegal party whisper by manipulating sopmeone to kill another person. People kill people the methods they use doesnt matter. They do it cause we being killing since the beggining just getting more efficient at it. People kill to defend them selves,revenge,defend another,country,phychopath,ordered,etc.. Many reasons does any reason make a difference? Unfortunetly it does according to law. But does using a defense of saving another even though in youre heart you wanted revenge would that be legal to the unaware law or would it be legal or illegal to the person themselves. Anyway just adding some thoughts in there.
     
  47. Sadly...it is not cheating, or lack of support, or lack of investment, or players...or anything of the sort that is killing UO.


    It is simply time.



    As time marches on, more and more new games apprear, and they all promise features that a game released in 1997 just does not have.

    I love UO. It is a part of me...and I am a small part of it. But even UO is not above mortality...and eventually, like me...like you...it will die.
     
  48. Gandie

    Gandie Guest

    I would say most 3rd party illegal programs do hurt the game.
    But not all. UOA as mentioned earlyer made the game better i think.

    Also i dunno if UOAM was illegal once, but it sure made the game ALOT! better and kept the communitys thighter! I Dont think my guild would still be active if it wasn't for UOAM that made it much easyer to stick together over the years!
     
  49. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    - Yup, just as people have been cheating since the beginning and using illegal 3rd party programs allows them to be more efficient at it (efficient ~ makes it easier).

    So one might argue that illegal 3rd party programs can provide an easier way to kill UO, just as a bomb can provide an easier way to kill people.
    Just making death more efficient, even though they might be considered harmless without any people willing to use them...
    but people been doing it since the beginning, so...
    some might say that both people and Illegal 3rd party programs are doing the killing & much more efficiently than if it were just the people doing the killing.
    Would you not agree?
     
  50. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    I could agree on youre view. Though I believe 3rd party programs can be used for good and evil at the same time by people. Which lays in the hand of the person being evil or good. I would not compare 3rd party programs as a bomb as more than one of those bombs was approved long ago for use "uoassituo automap,uo wedding,uo vender"and it didnt kill uo it made it better. So I will compare non approved 3rd party programs to prescription drugs like rx. Prescribed it can help but abused can be adictive. Even though Uo is a old game and really the only thing keeping it running is the the number of accounts that are opened the less accounts open the less income which will spell the demise of UO. Reasons accounts close are NERFS,DUpes,griefs,scammers,outdated graphics,expenses,cant make money in uo, better things out there, complainers,boredom,someone feels someone cheated them,Someone gets beaten in pvp,um hunters get tired of hunting um,customer service,hacked aaccounts,being banned,etc...

    So the death of uo is completly dependednt on the accounts opened. People are people plenty of reasons they leave not just one. If they had a choice to remove 1k accounts because of potentialy losing 60-70 accounts which one will they pick? Once Uo drops down to a certain amount of accounts it's over for the game. Everything will shut down no matter what. They are trying to keep it alive as much as possible and as long as possible to milk it of every penny it can give.