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Armor Refinements.. can we lower the different amounts?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Lord Kotan, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    Can we lower the different types to 3 or 4? aka, leather, stone, metal, woodland? There are WAY too many types right now, I don't think it is being taken advantage of.
     
  2. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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  3. Winter

    Winter Lore Keeper

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    This topic has been brought up several times before. Sometimes the developers just take an idea too far, and I think most players think the system is too complicated. But there has really been no response from the developers, so we don't know what they think.

    Personally, I think there should just be 4 or 5 levels that work with any material type.
     
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  4. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    It is too far... Leather, studded, studded samurai.. hide, bone, plate, chain-mail, ring-mail, woodland -- all the gargish counter parts to these (stone, plate, etc) -- so that is 11 variations right there! and now 5 levels.. I know you can combine them, but some I actually want broken down, not combined up... and it takes a TON to actually move up (and speaking of combining.. I rather combine mallets to get high level mallets)
     
  5. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    I agree this whole 'refinement' thing has been a total wash from the start and one of the most tedious and impractical systems ever introduced to UO. I have collected them, created a suit using them, and I sell them, VERY SLOWLY at invulnerable level.

    Right now with all the different types it is just a HEADACHE. We have Woodland, Stone Garg, Dragon, Chain, Ring, Plate, Sam Plate, Garg Plate, Bone, Hide, Studded Leather, Studded Sam (12). It is a joke, and sure you can now at least combine them per level to get a 'greater' level. But basically to get from the lowest level 'Defense' to an 'Invul' you need:

    2 def = 1 pro
    3 pro = 1 hardening
    4 hardening = 1 fort
    5 fort = 1 invul

    saying that

    6 def = 3 pro
    12 pro = 4 hardening
    20 hardening = 5 fort
    25 fort = 5 invul

    I don't even want to figure out how many at defense level I would be needed to upgrade to end up with 5 invuls, it is beyond me. Totally moronic

    and repeat repeat repeat again to get the 5 invuls you need to actually get a suit at MAX mods with the RNG.

    I get a headache just working out how many I need to do the upscale as it is.

    And then you need to get same 'type' on top of it. And we have 2 types per armor type, reinforced and deflecting. In total there are 24 'types' before we even start.

    Even tho they changed it so you can 'upgrade' them the storage requirements for each type are still ridiculous you either need:

    4 refinement amalgamator's per Type (so LOL 96 of the damn things - 960,000 clean up points) or

    have one amalgamator and store the refinements til you have enough of a 'type' to upgrade, so potentially you could have waiting:
    1 def
    2 pro
    3 hardening
    4 fort

    so a potential of up to 10 per 'type' while you wait for the ONE to upgrade to the next level, which would equate to 240 on hand while waiting with none to upgrade. Not including any invuls you have actually made and are storing, given you need a minimum of 5 per type to actually 'get' to making a suit that is another 120 if you just wanted to store ONE set of suit upgrades in case you decided to make a bone suit or something.

    And they still don't flipping 'stack' either by the same 'type' or once you do have the invuls made.

    Dropping it to just

    Woodland (wood)
    Leather (leather, bone, hide)
    Stone
    Metal (ring, chain, plate, scale)

    would have to be an improvement, with the 'types' applying to diff armors, so eg metal refinement can apply to both human and garg armor types. Woodland to any item made of wood etc.

    Even so at this level it will STILL BE A PAIN as it would still require 8 types once you add in reinforced and deflecting.

    Just make a refinement apply to ANY FLIPPING ARMOR TYPE.

    and get rid of all the material types all together.

    Much better to just have

    Reinforcing refinement (that can be applied to ANY armor type to increase resist cap)
    Deflecting refinement (that can be applied to ANY armor type to increase dci cap)

    with the 5 existing levels def, pro, hard, fort, invul. That can then be applied to ANY type of armor. Even if you 'upped' the amount of each type you need to produce an upgrade it would be a useable system, ie

    5 Reinforcing (defense level) = 1 protection
    10 Reinforcing (protection level) = 1 hardening
    15 Reinforcing (hardening levels) = 1 fortification
    20 Reinforcing (fortification levels) = 1 Reinforcing (Invulnerability level).

    Much simpler, 2 'types' (reinforcing, deflecting), 5 levels.


    I know I for one would actually USE the system all the time if it was simplified. As it is now I am at the point where I am going to fully abandon it and just use the things for clean up points.
     
  6. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    hehe you wrote and posted while I was doing the maths on mine. We ended up at roughly the same solution, get rid of the armor types altogether! Just make the deflect/reinforce work on anything with different levels.
     
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  7. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    MissEcho, what you said. Too many types, too many required to combine for a greater one, and what always pissed me off to where I gave up after half a year, the poor chances of getting the bonus mod. The 30% is much lower, and 15% is more like 5% to 10%. I could even put up with the other flaws in the system if defense gave one mod, protection always gave two, hardening always three, fortification always four, and invulnerability always five.
     
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  8. alayen

    alayen Visitor

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    The system is a joke. Everyone hated it when it was in development and now, surprise, nobody uses it.
     
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  9. Sauteed Onion

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    Basically everything Miss Echo said. Especially the stuff in white.

    The concept of lowering resist caps to raise DCI or vice versa wasn't bad. It is the process to do it and also the way it was explained that burnt my bacon. Also, out of that same update, various armor types got good things added to them(which was good). Studded gained inherent LMC that can go beyond the cap, plate has massive stamina protection. I was pretty nasty to Bleak, he deserved it though for not adding cinnamon rolls to the game.

    And here's a thread from then.
    http://stratics.com/community/threads/refinements-yes-or-no.297490/
    Just have a look at the for and against.

    And here's a picture I nabbed a while back.
    [​IMG]
    If you notice there is a huge gap under that last bit.. I saw the question, and didn't know a concise or simple way to explain it to the guy, so I waited for maybe somebody else to explain in such a manner.. and for about 20 minutes there was silence in general chat on Atlantic. The next comments were along the lines of selling houses or people looking for specific pieces of armor for suits.
     
    #9 Sauteed Onion, Feb 26, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
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  10. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    LOL you can't flipping 'explain' it to anyone. I spent days and days reading forums, reading what other people had tried to explain, tried to figure out what kinda suit I could make to get my dci cap to 70 ( 45 cap + 5 for five pieces of armor) while also getting the inherent lmc additions (+3 for additional 15 lmc taking it to 55) with the available invulnerable refinements I had to that point. I didn't have 5 of any one type so had to use a mix of bone & studded leather which kinda sucked as I hate the look of bone armor. Trying to figure out what was the best 'mix' for reduction of resistances because if you raised your cap in dci you lowered your cap in resistances and therefore had to work out which 'cap' on which 'resist' to lower.

    Even after all that I still messed it up a little as I should have taken 2 lots of 5 off energy, and one off poison, fire & cold as I forgot as as an elf I had the extra 5 on energy cap so I could of kept the full 70 cap on phys. Then trying to figure out what to do first, reforge, enhance, apply refinement, powder, imbue. (I was not spending real life dollars on the enhancing tool so had to do that before powdering and imbuing as you can't risk enhancing once you have invested all the powder and imbuing resources due to failure rates etc) It took me days and days and days to get my head around it and even then only 3/5 of the invuls gave me the 5 mods (which from all accounts I was lucky given other peoples experiences)

    Yes I ended up with a suit that with all 'bits' on including jewelry, talismans etc gives me:

    [​IMG]

    This suit also has the following modifications/accounts for :
    - 15 phys resist due to 'protection' spell
    and -25 fire resits due to 'vampiric embrace'

    didn't matter how I messed with what I had I couldn't get the items to bump my dci to the 68% (only 3/5 refinements gave me the full 5 so am -2 off max cap 70) without a major sacrifice to hci or something else.

    All in all it was a lesson in total frustration building this suit and I will NEVER do it again while refinements are such a pain to obtain, store and use.

    As for explaining how I 'built' it I couldn't if I tried, and even now would have to spend hours and hours relearning trying to replicate it.
     
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  11. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Hrmm, I thought the Refinement System was quite simple... You Increase Resist Caps, while lowering Defense Chance Caps, or the other way around.

    I agree with the OP though, there are way too many different types of refinements. Even if they limited the types between metal, stone, leather, woodland, & bone armor types it would make a huge difference.
     
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  12. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    The difficulty is building a suit that has had refinements applied to it in conjunction with all the 'other' things you have to select, reforge, enhancing, imbuing etc, and trying to 'explain' it to someone else. Using the refinement is also not intuitive, I couldn't figure out how to take +5 points off say one resist eg poison on ONE piece, still not sure how to do it as I ended up taking -1 of phy, fire, energy, poison, cold on my pieces as couldn't work out how to get it to actually take off all 5 from the one resist. There is obviously a way to do it, but when I was using the refinement be buggered if I could 'figure' it out. Due to the scarcity of getting the invul ones when I made the suit (was long before they allowed you to upgrade') you didn't get second chances once you used them and because the reforge/enhancing was done before the refinements were applied you didn't get a second chance if you messed it up.

    Perhaps second time around would be easier, but unless it is simplified there will never be a second time round for me :)
     
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  13. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Refinements are just ±1 for one resist on a single piece, but that would be nicely flexible to have ±5 per resist per piece, with a ±6 maximum per resist for the character. It could be coded, but I don't know that the system is popular enough for the Devs to spend time. All I want them to do is improve the odds on getting the bonus mod! Invul is too hard to find to go to waste almost all the time.

    Out of my core group of friends, I was the only one who did anything meaningful with refinements. Only one other tried, and when he asked me on ICQ how to use them, I had to call. It wasn't hard once he realized they modify caps and DCI rather than resists themselves, but it's a strange new way of thinking.
     
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  14. Sauteed Onion

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    That is the "simpler" part of it. Like Miss Echo has said, there's a whole other gauntlet of crafting options to go through, on top of the process of actually farming the "refinements" themselves. Trying to explain that to a guy in general chat. There is no simple way to explain that. Do champion spawns save the wash/varnish/polish/etc keep the like types together and you can toss them in an amalgamator to enhance their potency. Spam in general chat that you're looking for certain ones and possibly get one or 2 of the ones you want/need every month, mostly because most folks tossed them on the floor at the bank soon after the whole system came about.
    I hate to be negative about anything in UO, I really enjoy the game for the most part. But this refinement thing really just needs to be overhauled. Reduce the types like OP suggests, and Miss Echo's post is pretty good idea of what would be a massive leap in the appropriate direction.
     
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  15. Yadd of Legends

    Yadd of Legends Certifiable
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    I eventually figured this out enough to improve my sampire suit quite a bit, but I also vote for simplifying the system. I sometimes think some of the developers must think, "These UO players are looking for ways to waste time, so let's make things more complicated so they can get their money's worth wasting even more time." And sometimes we do seem to enjoy just wasting time, if the path is clear and the payoff worth it. But in this case, the path is not clear without a whole lot of trouble and study, and the payoff is debatable, so it's obviously time to simplify. To be fair, though, the developers have simplified a lot of things in the game that used to be more complicated and time consuming, so maybe this.
     
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  16. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    More cures of Hardening and Fortification Please. no one wants to lower phys or fire resist. systems too time consuming. ive used it a few times but but really not worth it as an "extra" unless you really need the dci / resist for a specific scenario. if it were less time consuming i would use it on all my 0 dci suits.
     
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  17. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    ^^ What she said -- very well stated and put together.

    Now let's say they do convert it so there are only 1-4 types of armor.. think they'd just convert all the ones we have? or I wonder if that would be too complex, and easier just to start over
     
  18. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    A lot of the type I do not want the bonus mod.. I only want 1 increase and 1 decrease; personally, I want to know what the results are before I do it. I already have so much time in a suit, I don't want to flub it up because now I'm missing extra DCI or resist
     
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  19. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    The refinement system is one of THE worst implementations of an idea I have ever seen. Who ever made it had to simply be clueless about how this game works, or are just not good designers. I hate to be so harsh, but this system was easily the most bone headed design implementation this game has ever seen. There is simply no defending any of it, because people brought up all the reasons it would be horrible to work with, and they just did it anyway. Then when people kept complaining about it being stupid, instead of fixing it, they tacked a half assed fix item into the clean up system that doesn't even solve the major underlying issue.

    They took what should have been a simple and useful mechanic and turned it into a largely unused cluster**** of a waste of development time.

    Whoever said "Hey lets makes this system with 200+ new items all of which are basically the same thing, that are so specifically divided that it could take you months of focused effort to build ONE suit, and oh yeah, lets make them unstackable so you can't really save the items you did't need while looking for the ones you did need, just to make it even more of a tedious waste of time!" should have been fired.

    /rant :(
     
  20. Speranza

    Speranza Slightly Crazed
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    Are T-maps and MiB the only ways to get these items still? I recently got two algamator thingies and kinda wanted to get into this. Just for idle fun and maybe a vendor.
     
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  21. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    nope, nor were they ever. You can steal them from NPC shops too.
     
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  22. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    They are also on champ spawn bosses.
     
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  23. Picus at the office

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    Before I stopped playing I spent a few days farming shops as the item per hour rate was far higher than champs/t-maps yet I never managed to get enough to even start making a suit. I'd have loved for this to be a good addition that helped to cement me further in the game but, sadly, it reinforced my belief that the devs just don't play the game as a regular player would.

    Concept is great even with all the other aspects of craftng but the structure was doomed to fail.
     
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  24. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Exactly! I've always had such poor odds (statistically perplexing) of getting the bonus mod that I'd use the next level up, counting on not getting the bonus mod. It worked almost every time.
     
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  25. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    I used to make at least a full round most every day, stealing from crates in appropriate Fel shops. Certain shops I stopped bothering with, because NPCs were always too close and would call guards. What always "frustrated" me, to say the least, was when an NPC 10 tiles away would notice my one-stone theft and call guards. I had to use a second client to follow my thief around and res when needed.

    Certain shops' containers also became unstealable from: another piece of ore would spawn and stack on top of an existing tile, making it too heavy to steal without NPCs noticing, and eventually all other items would respawn as heavy things like sledge hammers, again too heavy to steal without being noticed. Kyronix said there would be a fix, but...
     
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  26. Speranza

    Speranza Slightly Crazed
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    Get enhanced client and use the grid based bags for that situation. It's like the #1 reason I use that client is the grid based bags!
     
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  27. alayen

    alayen Visitor

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    The entire refinment debacle really, really, really made the dev team seem completely out of touch.
     
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  28. Winter

    Winter Lore Keeper

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    Out of touch, or not really understanding players - I don't understand why they haven't made changes to the system after all the complaints from the very beginning. Simplifying the system isn't the same as asking for "easy," and I think these suggestions are reasonable.

    I really do hope the developers are reading this thread.
     
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  29. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    It's not a matter of seeing them, but their weight. If a blacksmith's shop spawns two different pieces of ore that are too heavy (NPCs will always notice the attempt to steal), I can still grab lighter items like refinements, and eat fruit, with no problem. But then a container can spawn a heavy replacement like a hammer, and when everything is a heavy item, then there's nothing I can attempt to steal without getting guard-whacked.
     
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  30. Speranza

    Speranza Slightly Crazed
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    Derp, shows how little stealing I do. I was thinking like it spawns visually ON TOP of it.
     
  31. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    That too, especially when ore goes on top of a hammer, which is one of a few times I'm glad for the EC being...different. :)
     
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  32. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    hehe as I said up there:

    Much better to just have

    Reinforcing refinement (that can be applied to ANY armor type to increase resist cap)
    Deflecting refinement (that can be applied to ANY armor type to increase dci cap)

    with the 5 existing levels def, pro, hard, fort, invul. That can then be applied to ANY type of armor. Even if you 'upped' the amount of each type you need to produce an upgrade it would be a useable system, ie

    5 Reinforcing (defense level) = 1 protection
    10 Reinforcing (protection level) = 1 hardening
    15 Reinforcing (hardening levels) = 1 fortification
    20 Reinforcing (fortification levels) = 1 Reinforcing (Invulnerability level).

    Much simpler, 2 'types' (reinforcing, deflecting), 5 levels.

    The only thing I forgot to add was make them STACK.

    And if you cant make em stack, make it so you can put all of the 'type' reinforcing' or 'deflecting' into the amalgamator and once the required amount of one type are put in they auto convert to the next level up. Then at least we can get away with storing 2 things, amalgamators, instead of hundreds. Just make it so you can 'remove' any refinement of a certain level at any time.
     
  33. alayen

    alayen Visitor

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    I'd just make one sort of Refinement Widget and make it rare.
     
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  34. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Stacking would go a long way, first by reducing the number of refinements needed, and it would eliminate the problem of low odds on bonus mods. I could put up with the rest, even the great variety, if all I needed to finish a piece was a polish of Defense.
     
  35. Yadd of Legends

    Yadd of Legends Certifiable
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    Stacking, yes - why not?
     
  36. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    I just realized, after the thread on potions, that we're talking about two different types of stacking. I'd love to see both. I still see no reason why they shouldn't, because there's no difference between a "Cure of Hardening/Studded Leather/Reinforced" and another refinement of exactly the same type -- at least nothing perceptible to players. Kyronix has never offered an explanation that satisfied me.

    The stacking I referred to is that of effects, that using a refinement will not wipe out previous mods. Any particular resist on a given piece can still have a max of ±1, but let's say you use an invulnerability refinement and get only four mods (as I do 95% of the time). Then you need just one Defense to complete the piece. Or if you've put in the time to steal five Defense, that's enough to complete a piece. This is what I've wanted from the start, instead of the amalgamator I find nearly useless (it still takes too many low-level refinements to get a higher one of any use). Stacking of effects could also allow an increase in some resists and a decrease in others.
     
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  37. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    Where in NPC shops?
     
  38. Petra Fyde

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  39. Winter

    Winter Lore Keeper

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    The refinement components also spawn in town barrels that you don't have to steal from. However, the spawn rate is very low.
     
  40. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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  41. Petra Fyde

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    yes, fel towns
     
  42. Winter

    Winter Lore Keeper

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    Well... except for the Bucs Den blacksmith shop in Trammel. But, like I said, it's a low spawn rate for refinements.

    [​IMG]
    EDIT: In case you din't know, you can get the refinements here also.
     
    #42 Winter, Mar 5, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
  43. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    Pirate and merchant ships are probably the easiest way to collect the refinements, but don't expect to see the top two tiers very often. Those are the only two I bother to keep.

    I'm all for reworking this system to cut down on the needless complexity and sheer volume of near-identical items it generates. Keep the levels, ditch the specific armor type, and make the things stackable for storage. K.I.S.S.
     
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  44. Speranza

    Speranza Slightly Crazed
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    But the resources needed to grab like 4-5 off a pirate ship is unreasonable. Basically you get 4-5 random refinments at the cost of (Calculated using Orc ship w/heavy cannon and guestimated 12 shots):
    Board: 98
    Cloth: 16
    Yarn: 22
    Water: 34
    Salt peter: 370
    Ingots: 144
    Sulfurous Ash: 60

    Although the other loot may help if you like crafting supplies!
     
  45. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    I do! :D

    Not disagreeing with you that scuttling ships is economically unreasonable either, as it is!
     
  46. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    For me it came down to half a dozen shops with a reasonably good chance of stealing without being noticed. The Vesper carpentry shop and Minoc provisioner's are definitely not on this list.
     
  47. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    Where/what are merchant and pirate ships exactly? never encountered one..

    Also, nearly everyone posting here wants it simplified and reduced.
     
  48. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    Do all shops in fel have this? or only certian shops?
     
  49. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Not every one, but a lot. Smiths, tailors, carpenters, and I've heard some provisioners.
     
  50. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    They are High Seas content. You can find them in Tram and Fel in the waters to the east of Jhelom, sometimes south and east of New Haven, and rarely north of Fire Isle. You can find them all over in the Tokuno waters.
     
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