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Armor/Weapons Revamp details?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Arcades, Jan 20, 2013.

  1. Arcades

    Arcades Sage
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    Can we get a hint at what the DEV team is working on in regards to armor/weps revamp?

    Please also give some love to Dragon Scale armor. How about each scale color coincides with an eater property, exceptionally made will have a 50% chance of 15% eater property that does not count towards the imbuing totals.

    Red scales = fire eater
    White scales = kinetic eater
    Blue scales = cold eater
    Green scales = poison eater
    Yellow scales = energy eater
    Black scales = damage eater

    Just some ideas...
     
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  2. DJAd

    DJAd Stratics Legend
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    Yeah this is going to be an interesting one. I'm hoping more details will follow when they push the publish out to TC.
     
  3. DJAd

    DJAd Stratics Legend
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    What about being able to enhance metal armour with dragon scales to gain an extra property. Properties vary depending on the scale colour used.
     
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  4. pumpkin_escobar

    pumpkin_escobar Journeyman

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    I just want it to get here already!
    I have so many toons i still need to craft armor for.
     
  5. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    It'll sit on TC for like a week, we'll scream that it ruins the game, and they'll publish it anyway.
     
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  6. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    I am looking forward to the revamp. I hope they include stone and dragon scale armor in addition to metal and leather.
     
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  7. Shakkara

    Shakkara Slightly Crazed
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    I'd have dragon scale armor affect the resist caps.

    When full set is worn the corresponding resistance goes up to 75, and all other resist caps down to 65.
     
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  8. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I have one important point about the upcoming armor revamp that I don't believe someone else has mentioned yet.

    It will mean little unless they also allow an option to hide robes and/or otherwise allow us to show off the armor.

    We also still have the apron issue to deal with, but the robe issue would appear to be primary.

    -Galen's player
     
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  9. DerekL

    DerekL Certifiable
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    It seems to me that if you wanted to show off the armor, you wouldn't *wear* a robe.
     
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  10. Swordsman

    Swordsman Adventurer

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    The armor revamp should improve the defense capability of warrior. A full plate warrior should be able to survive the exodus attacks.
     
  11. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    This is not accurate.

    The issue is not the lack of wanting to show the armor, when it makes RP sense to show the armor.

    The issue is the lack of wanting to sacrifice effectiveness in order to do it.

    -Galen's player
     
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  12. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    One thing that worries me is the chance that they'll over-power plate (this game has a long, long history of over-corrections) and neglect some important facts about armor both in RL and fantasy contexts.

    You get hot in that armor; that matters. And, in a fantasy world, you have dragons spitting fire at you, roasting you alive inside the armor. You also get tired; while plate wasn't anywhere near as heavy as some people think it is, it is still somewhat heavy. Plate can get stuck in the mud (see: Agincourt, wherein the French Knights got stuck in the mud, I think leading in part to the myth that plate was too heavy to move in), plate can fill quickly with water and drown you within it if you happen to get tossed into a river (see: Mohacs, wherein the Hungarian Prince died in just this manner). Real life leather armor isn't made out of dragon skins, but rather cow skins, so we can quite reasonably expect that UO leather armor can be much more effective than RL leather armor. And even in real life we do have some instances where lightly-armored warriors can hold their own against heavily-armored warriors (note the successes of the Mongolian light cavalry archers, or the Irish Hobelars).

    The team has specifically stated its intent to NOT nerf other armor. I have to think that not nerfing also means not making plate the ONLY viable option. At least I hope it does.

    Of course, then they run the risk of folks whining that the changes are "meaningless!"

    We'll see when the Publish Notes come out.

    I'm actually pretty optimistic about this as they have obviously been talking about it for quite awhile!

    -Galen's player
     
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  13. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    As part of the weapons revamp, I am interested to hear if they increased archery damage output to equal throwing. And I want to hear if they gave a benefit to 2H weapons.
     
  14. DerekL

    DerekL Certifiable
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    How is it not accurate to say "if you want to show off the armor, don't wear a robe"? Otherwise, you're making the rather unreasonable request to have your cake and eat it too.
     
  15. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    That is, as you well know, not what you said.

    I quote your post:

    Some players do indeed want to show off the armor, but do not want to sacrifice effectiveness to do it. Hence the issue is not, as I explained, the lack of wanting to show off the armor.

    As phrased in your attempt to rewrite post history, you are in effect saying it's perfectly fine to be asked to sacrifice effectiveness.

    It's your view. It's not, however, the same thing as what you said before.

    And in any case, I disagree. I think enough others disagree that it will render an armor revamp pointless.

    Unless, of course, they go overboard with it. In which case it's pointless for a different reason.

    -Galen's player
     
  16. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I think that were they just making all armor meddable and leaving it there, there would be rather less fuss.

    My guess is the meddability issue stays and they confer some bonus on metal, or non-meddable, armor.

    I am at once optimistic and apprehensive.

    -Galen's player
     
  17. Xalan Dementia

    Xalan Dementia Slightly Crazed
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    give robes the option to be moved to a type of Under Robes. still worn just worn under armor.


    or add a craftable Potion of Transparency that can be used on a robe to make it invisible. Except for a small icon/dot on the paperdoll that represents the item. Giving the wearer a place to grab to unequip etc and for others to know you have a robe with stats etc.
     
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  18. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Others have suggested an "armband" slot and conversion offered.

    Either way....Long as it happens.

    I have 1 character who will still wear a robe, one who won't, and one isn't sure yet.

    -Galen's player
     
  19. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    You are only 1/8 right.

    It will sit on TC for about a month. During that month there will be several logical, well thought out posts, about how the Dev's ideas are wrong and won't improve the game. Then they will post it to Origin for about 36 hours. During that 36 hours the Origin players will find several things that need fixed and will post about it. So then the Dev's will roll out the publish to ever other shard. After about 3 months of complaints the Dev's will put a half hearted response and quick fix together, that will make the armor revamp less useless, but no where near what it should have been to start out with. Once they come out with their half hearted fix there will be several players that say " Oh what a GREAT FIX!!!!! We have the best Dev's in this history of MMORPG games." Yet because of this there will be several more unhappy players, and for a few it will be the straw that breaks the cammel's back.

    Personally I hope the Dev's search for Cetric's post about revamping armor and weapons and install EVERY idea he posted. I know there have been several other well thought out posts about this idea as well, and I hope they get included too, but sadly history says the idea's of the players won't get included.
     
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  20. Sauteed Onion

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    That and when evidence or any sort of player research happens people come in and HURHUR STUPID everything that gets mentioned.
     
  21. LordDrago

    LordDrago Certifiable
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    Well that is just STUPID!! :D

    But yeah...hopefully, this revamp will take a very hard look at ideas that have been posted, gets heavily QA'd, put on test and gets fixed for all the issues noted by players, etc.

    Wonder what sort of luck suits we need to wear for this to happen right this time?
     
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  22. Vexxed

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    Quick Thoughts...

    1) I see mysitc Mages getting a boost because they are rocking 120 focus & what ever buff Heavy Armors are likely to see

    2) I'm guessing Heavy armors get a slight buff & are not simply made "meddable".
    • Higher than 70 Resistance cap maybe? 1 pt phys / pc or something?
    • Inherent kinetic eater that doesn't count towards weight
    • Higher Base resistances (Best choice I think as long as it's at least 1 mod's worth aka ~15 points)
    3) I like the idea of Dragon scale armor maybe getting different eater properties appropriate to scale color.. Maybe Bone armor would be Cold or something as well.
    4) I'm guessing that it won't be on TC long enough & major probs will be passed on in the live publish also.. oh what fun to come!
     
  23. silent

    silent Lore Master
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    Is anyone else besides me worried these "improvements" will be a nerf for many of us that have spent quite a bit of time and gold building our suits and weapons? I'd really like to here what they plan before I break out the pom poms.
     
  24. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    People revamp their outfits whenever the latest & greatest modded item comes out. They'll just do the same thing now with more armor choices to have fun messing with.
     
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  25. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    This is my BIGGEST fear.
     
  26. silent

    silent Lore Master
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    Let's say I'm happy with my current armor and weapon? The statements below give me the impression my favorite weapon may lose or gain damage (who knows) they may decide the weapon specials on my favorite weapon should be changed making my favorite weapon useless to me. I wish there was more transparency than us finding out the changes once they hit TC. Revamping is the new Balance, remember that?

    • Revamping Weapon System – Reviewed and adjusted all weapon damage based on weapon speed, as well as updated various special moves.
    • Revamping Armor System – Made all armor types useful again.
     
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  27. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Also...have it so we can re-forge dragon armor. That would be nice.
     
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  28. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Bone armor was better than plate but less durable. Magic plate was of course the best (back in the AR days). Plate looked the best, I'd argue.

    Would be nice if they added a bone armor neck piece one day. Anyway, I feel as if they will, indeed, just make all armor medable. I would be very surprised if they tinker with armor more than that.

    Can't you just train at higher levels by stealthing in high populated areas (witnesses), or do you have to train with heavy armor? I forget, it's been a long time since I trained stealth.

    My biggest fear is that they will absolutely trash certain special moves, or worse, make it so we have to actually conserve our mana rather than chain AIs. If they do fix specials, they better reduce the HP of all monsters.
     
  29. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    A good way for them to not do that is people saying that plate needs to have a physical cap of 100 or whatever other horrible ideas people think are amazing that they came up with. That's a good start imho.
     
  30. cdavbar

    cdavbar Lore Master
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    When I am going into town and want to "show off" I have a recall macro that unequips my robe. Upon going back to battle, I just hit my redress macro.
     
  31. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I've done that too but it is somewhat spell-destroying.

    So what ends up happening is that I do it according to my mood.

    Fortunately my knight character doesn't need the DCI Cloak. He then uses a Cloak of Power which, while of some use, isn't so ridiculously useful as to make me feel stupid for on occasion not using it.

    However....All this really is besides the point. If they are going to make metal armor more useful it's of precious little use unless folks can actually show it off without sacrificing the effectiveness.

    -Galen's player
     
  32. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Yeah, I don't like many of the ideas that others seem absolutely enamored with.

    When I see such phrases as "just listen to the players" used as though that were something easy to do and always good to do I get rather terrified.

    We do not speak with one voice, and those with the loudest voices often are a distinct minority of players.

    -Galen's player
     
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  33. Shakkara

    Shakkara Slightly Crazed
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    I'm going to bring in a Richard Bartle article.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/2157/soapbox_why_virtual_worlds_are_.php
    In my opinion, we must fix the weapon/armor imbalance as it is a good thing in the long term, even if we all have to replace all our gear in the short term. I hope the developers do not hold back and only do band-aid fixes, but instead make sweeping changes that address problems once and for all.
     
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  34. Shakkara

    Shakkara Slightly Crazed
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    Well, another Bartle quote (from Designing Virtual Worlds, 2003):

     
    #34 Shakkara, Jan 21, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  35. Shakkara

    Shakkara Slightly Crazed
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    Well, I think there are ways to do it, for example like EVE Online's "council of stellar management", in which players elect their representatives (9 of them), which are flown in to meet with the developers several times a year. They have a structured way of raising issues and propose changes which more or less forces them to interact with the community (so the council is in touch all the time with the players through the forums and through meetings in-game, not the devs). The council members then filter the content and discuss it internally before writing up issue documents and discussing those in detail with the developers.

    That way the whole signal-to-noise ratio is a lot better than what you'd get if devs interacted with all 350k players directly.

    The only bad thing is that EVE is a very hardcore PVP environment, and from my time on the council (I was elected 3 times and served for 1.5 years on it) I noticed that a lot of big alliances in game got representatives voted in just to push through mechanics favorable to the alliance so they would gain advantages in battle. For example, an alliance that had mainly noobs in small ships with low hitpoints lobbied extensively against the giant capital ships that had powerful area of effect weapons (which could destroy such fleets in a single shot). All alliances wanted changes to the way they could claim and hold territory, of course always favoring the mechanics that would be beneficial to them and lobbying against mechanics that would disadvantage them. Not based on any merit to the player base as a whole or whenether or not such mechanics would actually be good game design.

    UO is much less competitive though so I believe such a council would work. I'd definately be in favor of SOME people having more or less direct access to the developers and acting as their communication channel to the player communities. As communication between devs and players in UO is some of the worst in any MMO, in my opinion.
     
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  36. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I actually believe just the situation you described with EVE would occur in UO, but somewhat worse, and for basically the same reasons.

    UO's most-vocal players are the most-competitive. Who do you think it is that would join the committee in UO? Sure as Hell wouldn't be me.

    -Galen's player
     
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  37. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    That is because when you are dealing with people, not AI, you have to know the game as well, if not better than anyone. Sadly, it seems most PvPers know the PvP aspect of the game better than these devs. I will use the recently added "apple timer" as an example. When it came out most PvPer's liked the though of an apple timer because it would require more skill than just eatting an apple everytime you got cursed, but every PvP also knew that mortal could and would be abused. Now because of the apple timer and no timer on mortal, all a dexer has to do it chain mortal and you can not heal your self. If you are able to last thru the first apple timer to eat a second all the dexer has to do is continue to chain mortal and you are dead.

    There were a LOT of people pointing this obvious fact out, but once again, it never got any attention. I sure do hope with the revamp of weapons specials this is the first thing they look at.
     
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  38. Sauteed Onion

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    When I hear, mortal or mortally wounded, I think death. But there's a ninja move called death strike I think.. so renaming Mortal Wound to Death strike won't work.. and even then, that doesn't just kill you either. I think instead of a specials revamp, they just mass rename some moves to what they are.
    Here's an example.
    Mortal Strike = Inconveniencing Strike.
     
  39. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    No, actually it means that in PvP you're competing against a subjective obstacle.

    You don't have to be good, you just have to suck less than your opponent. Oh, also it helps if you can roll into message boards or global chat and convince everyone that you haven't really lost when you did. Also, helps to accuse your opponent of cheating, and to define your own running away as a strategic withdrawal and your opponent's running away as cowardice.

    Etc.

    This is not to say that PvPers do not know the game well, and are not good players. Rather, it is to say that to say you know the game better than "anyone" is a myth, and that it's also a myth to say the prime difference between the playstyles is knowledge of the game. It is not. It is that PvP is a subjective obstacle, one that can be talked out of and where being good is merely helpful, not required. If your opponent sucks worse than you do, you don't have to be good in objective terms. If you can convince everyone that you won when you didn't, and render victories meaningless in the PvP community, then you "win" even if you lost the fight in every objective sense.

    By contrast, with computer-controlled obstacles, either you are up to the task or you aren't.

    -Galen's player
     
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  40. DerekL

    DerekL Certifiable
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    While there was no formal council in CoX, there was a handful of people well known to have direct access to the rednames (devs)... But these were people who spent hours and hours seeking out bugs and collecting data and statistics. In particular, Arcana's months of research on power damage was legendary among the playerbase, and lead to a significant revamp of some powers. She literally collected data from thousands of fights and then did proper statistical analysis (not the lightweight handwaving that usually passes for such analysis on gaming forums) on the data. She earned that access the old-fashioned way.

    But, there's a kicker - the CoX rednames listened* to the players, and solicited such input. The devs here? Not so much.

    *With the caveat that "listening" != "doing what the playerbase wants", something very few realize. As someone pointed out upthread, what the playerbase wants isn't always healthy for the game in the long run.
     
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  41. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    To me "listening to the players" means using us as a resource. Using us to substitute for an institutional memory.

    Kind of like the actors on a television series. Producers can change, writers can change. Your constants are your actors and the characters they play.

    It doesn't mean the actors are always going to know what the next episode should be. It sure as Hell doesn't mean they should be in charge. It doesn't mean they can do everyone else's jobs.

    It does mean that you entirely ignore them at your own peril.

    -Galen's player
     
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  42. chise2

    chise2 Sage
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    I agree these are things really that should have been done long ago. Now I do worry about the idea of sweeping changes. Which is why I hope they give us the details very soon and let us test them for a good amount of time. Not to mention listen to player feed back! I donlt mind the idea of sweeping changes as long as they actually work and donlt create more problems. Yeah having to replace your suits might suck a little in the short term but people need to think long term. Having most armor types and many weapons be basically useless is not a good thing it needs to change.
     
  43. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    How'd that work out for them?
     
  44. DerekL

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    Pretty well I think... many things got fixed/changed/introduced to the game because of player input.
     
  45. Maximus of Lck

    Maximus of Lck Adventurer
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    Well I hope whatever they do makes sense. Here's a few simple examples that make sense to me.

    To me, plate armor and/or dragon armor should have the absolute highest possible physical resistance (70)
    Plate should also have the absolute lowest energy resistance of any type. Ex: Metal is conductive to both heat and energy.
    Plate armor would also be weak to cold for the same reason.
    Plate armor should also decrease the dexterity of the person wearing it.
    Plate would be fairly resistant to fire, other than the heat that accompanies it.
    Plate would also repel most poison that is applied to it, as it would run off, leading it to have a fairly high poison resist also.
    Mages have absolutely no reason to wear full armor with the best physical resistance, so it should remain non-meddable.

    Another example would be leather armor.
    To me, leather armor should have a lower maximum physical resistance (say 30 max per suit). A piece of leather will not deter much from a physical attack\kick\bite, etc.
    Now leather is also fairly resistant to fire, so it would have a higher maximum fire resistance, maybe even 70\suit.
    If you were to pour poison on a piece of leather, most of it would run off, but some would soak into the leather, leading it to have a mid-range poison resist maximum (around 35-40)

    I guess in my mind it should be extremely hard to put together a full 70's suit. A mage shouldn't be as well protected as a fighter in full armor. I mean come on, a wizards hat that has a higher physical resistance than a full plate helmet? Phhht.
     
  46. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    You know how much more unbalanced that would make dexers against mages?
     
  47. Maximus of Lck

    Maximus of Lck Adventurer
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    But it would make sense.

    It would work the other way around also. How is a robe going to stop a pointy dagger or an arrow?
     
  48. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Player input is important, and the UO Devs do listen to it. The difficulty is in sorting the wheat from the chaff.

    How many of the requested changes over the years, and multitude of threads, actually boiled down to 'nerf every template but mine so that I can lord it over all the rest'? Or 'Nerf this template/spell/weapon because I don't have the imagination/player apptitude to find a counter for it'?

    I'm not going to post ideas and suggestions as to how to re-vamp armor and weapons, I'm going to wait and see what the dev team have come up with.
     
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  49. Shakkara

    Shakkara Slightly Crazed
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    Anything that is CONDUCTIVE to energy will actually PROTECT you from it. If energy much rather passes through the material of the armor than it passes through water (you) then you're safe. Especially if you wear a non-conductive layer below the metal such as a nice arming tunic or gamberson underneath it, which most people would do (or else the armor is EXTREMELY uncomfortable). That gamberson underneath it also makes it cold resistant (ever tried to run around in chain/platemail in the winter? I have.)

    The best protection against millions of volts is actually a suit of metal, as demonstrated here:


    That said, your idea is unworkable in the current state of Ultima Online, as monsters are already scaled to players wearing full 70 suits and wearing anything less would mean instant death in many cases. Unless you'd completely overhaul the stats of all the creatures and the entire combat system on top of that. Which probably isn't going to happen. I personally dislike the entire percentual resistance system in the first place, but to replace it would mean re-writing all the combat code and a shift in game mechanics of the scale we had when AOS was introduced. Do you think the current dev team can do that with the limited means they have available? Not likely.
     
    #49 Shakkara, Jan 22, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  50. Maximus of Lck

    Maximus of Lck Adventurer
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    [/QUOTE]
    I'd sure like to see that happen. AR made sense.
     
    #50 Maximus of Lck, Jan 22, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
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