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Assassins a dying breed?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Monkey, Dec 26, 2009.

  1. Monkey

    Monkey Guest

    Hello,

    I just want to throw this out there. For years now, I've been playing a stealther under regulated conditions (roleplay), meaning I am still playing one in its purest form, no skill bonusses, no regeneration mods, no SSI increase, none of that wonderful stuff.

    Is it fun? Damn right it is, but it's slowly going down the drain. Let me just sum up what's been changing so far that's made an impact on RP-PVP.

    1. Cramped templates

    There's a positive and a negative side about this, which I'll briefly underline here. The negative side is that you're forced to choose. Going purely along the assassin's route (ninjitsu or poison, doing both is just insane and messes up your template even further), you're pretty much forced to cut down on healing capabilities and meditation/focus. I currently have no focus/meditation at all. As it should be perhaps, I'm limited to a purely offensive role and need to succeed quickly as I can't endure a long fight due to having no mana regeneration whatsoever, especially with death strike taking up a gazillion mana.

    As I said, this CAN be good. You're an assassin, so your job's to bring someone down fast before they have a chance to react and blaze all over your face. So that's the positive bit of it at least.

    2. Passive revealing

    The biggest factor in stealth changes in recent years. It's absolutely horrible because it's still broken and eventhough shadowjump is supposed to make up for this, it doesn't because shadowjump is broken too. It doesnt work around player houses, and where does the majority of PvP take place? That's right. Derr.

    It's ludicrous that even with 120 stealth, you're likely (or at least I am) still too afraid of approaching your target because he's got a VERY fair chance of revealing you with the jack of all trades racial bonus. And if he's an elf, well you'd better not even try because you'll be revealed before you've even activated your primary weapon ability and your assassination target's going to run in the opposite direction, leaving you standing there like a pinguin, waggling after him while shaking your fist hopelessly.

    I've lost track of the amount of times where, with medable armor and 120 stealth, I've snuck up on a target and got revealed within the 4 tile radius. It messes everything up, taking point 1 into consideration you NEED a succesful surprise opening hit, unless you're working with multiple people. Your opponent's reaction speed is key to succes as an assassin, at least in its pure form without magic items.

    I've gone from 80 stealth (which is horrible as you get frigging revealed from 4 tiles away on occasion) to 120 (still horrible, not worth the skillpoints at all in its current form as I still get revealed 50% of the time at least). Recently I've dropped back down to 80 stealth again to free up some skillpoints, because really, it was next to useless. I'm not taking it just for a mediocre increase in deathstrike damage.

    I originally posted this in Spiels and Rants ( http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=173015 ), but I guess I want some more input. I know at one point they actually reduced the radius of passive revealing or at least the effectiveness of it. All I can say is, do it again.
     
  2. Capt.E

    Capt.E Guest

    yes, melée assassins are dead. Passive reveal on elves is the reason. It's crazy that a racial ability can kill an entire template-class of fighter. Perhaps a solution could be something like if ninjit+hiding+stealth is >= 270 passive reveal wouldn't work. I dunno, it's really a niche temp and has recieved a bunch of nerfs due to other classes using ninjit abililities. My suggestion for now would be pick up archery, but yeah u lose a ton of cool specials for ninjit by going ranged attack. Happy hunting.
     
  3. Cear Dallben Dragon

    Cear Dallben Dragon Babbling Loonie
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    good post! passive reveal is crap!
     
  4. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    Trying to build an effective assassin template, then use it with any significant results, has probably been one of my greatest UO dissapointments.

    Unfortunately I just think that all the best skills most people would use on an assassin have been nerfed beyond use in one form or another....

    ...so I decide to change the template into a thief, oh wait... that's been nerfed to hell over the years too. :(
     
  5. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    It'd be nice if the passive reveal was halved for the semicircle behind the target, and quartered for the quarter pie-wedge pointing straight at the back of the target.

    ... and/or perhaps the first passive reveal fails to reveal, but makes the stealther twice as likely to be revealed for a timer of a couple seconds. If they continue they're more likely to be revealed, or they can wait a few seconds scaled by the amount of stealth they have.
     
  6. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    Passive reveal is stinky.
     
  7. Monkey

    Monkey Guest

    Halved when behind the target would make a lot of sense to me. If there were some official numbers, that'd help to check if I've just been extremely unlucky or not.
     
  8. Tuchman

    Tuchman Guest

    I do like the halved for the semicircle behind the target.
    I think they have something coded for thieves when they steal from behind that increases their chances.
     
  9. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I'd like to submit that you play under unusual and idiosyncratic conditions, and that your experiences aren't necessarily the best basis to draw conclusions about templates.

    The whole point of the restrictive rules you have in many RP communities is to be....well, restrictive.

    You don't really play under the current rules set, but rather under a derivation.

    I have little doubt that stealth-warriors of various types would at least be more viable if you used skill bonus items and other items.

    Having said that....Your experience can confirm something I've long-suspected: The path to any kind of viability for stealth-warrior "assassin" templates is through skill-bonus items.

    I'm not so sure this is a bad thing.

    Passive reveal I really can't comment on. I have only seen it happen once.

    The experience of other players whom I respect seems to vary. Almost everyone complains about it, but I am personally aware of several stealthers, in both PvP and PvM, who function at a very high level despite it.

    All of them are mages, however.

    -Galen's player
     
  10. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    If you can put up a good enough, reasoned, argument in favour this could be doable. There are two shards that already have coding for no passive reveal.
     
  11. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    4 tiles is pretty dang close. If you are sneaking up on a target, you have the advantage. You can preset your specials etc. Even if passive detect reveals you in this matter you still have the initiative.

    The thing is for those complaining about passive detect, you do not exactly know how to run the template. If you are worried about passive detect, make sure you always end up doing this. Hide, stealth,hide - Then passive detect doesn't reveal you when you are idle under hide.
     
  12. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    I get passive revealed by oranges all the time, then they kill me to death. It kind of ruins the surprise I had for them.
     
  13. Monkey

    Monkey Guest

    I function with passive revealing present, but that doesn't mean it's fair. If you take 120 stealth, not even a majorly easy skill to achieve compared to say crafting or weaponskills, and you place it against characters who 99% of the time have invested absolutely nothing in detect hidden, you should come out on top every time, or at least 99% of the time.

    It's like hitting someone with 20 wrestling with your 120 weapon skill. You're not bound to miss all that much are you? Why can't it be the same with stealth? Passive revealing is absolutely horrible, they intended for shadowjump to ensure you are guaranteed to get really close, but that simply doesn't work as it's broken.
     
  14. Coffin

    Coffin Guest

    Passive reveal makes me want to LOG!
     
  15. Monkey

    Monkey Guest

    Passive detect reveals you upon the actual movement of going from one tile to the other, so I'm not sure what your method of hide, stealth, hide is going to do.

    Four tiles is close proximity, and yes, the rule I always set in place when working in tag-teams, is: ''Right, attack as soon as I get revealed''. So once the detect kicks in, we just rush in anyway, fully prepared for that.

    But it's a bother. We depend heavily on reaction speed and in PvP oriented communities, RP or not, reaction speed is rather high. It takes one button for someone to arm up or otherwise just begin running unless they're in the midst of conversation.

    You would expect to properly have the element of surprise with a carefully thought out template.
     
  16. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    I get passive revealed all the time on my RPer. I find it to be the single most annoying aspect of Ultima Online.
     
  17. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    passive reveal is JUNK..
    i mean really only people with gm detect hiden should passivally reveal someone.. it should be the bonus of gming that skill. anything under gm you need to use it manually.

    this whole anyone you stand more then 3 spaces from instantly (without using the skill) reveals you is crap.

    even if you are an elf witch was suppose to make being detected harder?
     
  18. GL_Seller

    GL_Seller Guest

    U mean ur shard isnt littered with speedhacking ninja/bush dexers who stealth up run up nervestrike deathstrike yet? Then at the hint of dmg use a smoke bomb.

    I'll give up passive detect if they get rid of smokebombs. One of the worst things put into this game.
     
  19. KalVasTENKI

    KalVasTENKI Babbling Loonie
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    Yeah , I've never bothered with reveal but human tracking kicks ass.
     
  20. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    What two shards, Petra? First time I've heard of this o_O
     
  21. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    I'd like to submit that you don't even PLAY the template, everything you said is based on what someone else has said. Under YOUR OWN REASONING, you shouldn't even be saying ANYTHING. I've been passively revealed *LOTS* when I played this temp, changed it to archery and it became more effective but it wasn't the template I wanted to make. What the OP stated are *REAL* issues with this kind of template. My main character I want to put hiding and stealth on for RP purposes, or atleast hiding. without nearly destroying his usefullness, I can't. So I made him human and use JoaT to hide. :[
     
  22. Monkey

    Monkey Guest

    Agreed with you on that one. Smokebombs make me immortal, but that isn't my role, I don't want to be an uber survivalist, I want my deserved efficiency when moving at 120 stealth versus people with no point in detect whatsoever. Being tracked and manually revealed is something different entirely, it's the passive crap that needs to disappear pronto.
     
  23. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    A little reading comprehension goes a long way.
     
  24. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    As one of Galen's Mage/Stealther friends, I can comment on how messed up passive reveal is.

    I have 100 hiding, 120 stealth - a total of 220 skill points designed to allow me to move unseen. (I also have 100 Traking and 100 Forensics, the perfect stalker...) If I'm on, and not actively engaged in RP, I'm more than likely stealthed.

    As part of RP on GL I'm part of an alliance, and that alliance is warred. If I move within 4 tiles of an orange I *WILL* be revealed in Tram. If I stay still and they are the ones moving I will stay hidden 99% of the time. The likelyhood they have any Detect Hidden beyond the human JOAT is.. well.. zero.

    When I go to Fel, I have to carefully choose the path I take when stealthed. Detection there is just as bad but it can be anyone - with the added twist of push through causing me to be revealed even while stationary.

    Being revealed is supposed to be a combination of Detect Hidden and Tracking, neither of which most characters posess, plus the elven racial bonus. Why should a non existant skill set, or a pretend 20%, negate a 220 skill investment?

    JOAT should give a 10% chance to passive reveal at best. GM Detect Hidden should give about 50% chance, scaled up to say 80 if combined with GM Tracking, 85 with the elven racial bonus. And that is being VERY generous to the non-stealthers, as I would prefer they have at most a 75% chance to passive reveal.

    Targeted detection is another story, leave it the way it is.

    Shadowjump is pointless around houses due to the antiquated anti-house-breakin code
     
  25. Monkey

    Monkey Guest

    Thank you Martyna.

    It's good to hear actual experiences from other stealthers. I spent some time wondering if this was more due to my own bad luck, or actual messed up numbers in the whole maths surrounding passive reveal chance.
     
  26. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Have to point out something ironic....The one time I've seen a passive reveal myself it absolutely ruined an RP scene.

    Hmm...I should rephrase that a bit....

    The one time I've seen a passive reveal myself, and been conscious of what was going on.

    Martyna's posted in the thread...I've seen her come out of hiding at times that to me seemed random.

    For all I know most of those could have been passive reveal.

    -Galen's player
     
  27. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I was going to reply to your reply to me, but then I saw how little your post had to do with mine, and decided it's best to just take a pass.

    -Galen's player
     
  28. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    Well you better get that out of your head pronto. Requiring ppl to ruin their balanced templates for the sake at a slim chance to passive detect is Nutts.

    Sorry but no one should get a free lunch. Stealth archer based templates hold so many advantages currently over others. Being undetectable wouldn't be balanced would it?
     
  29. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Do you feel your experience would not change substantially with the use of contemporary equipment, such as skill items?

    Obviously it wouldn't help with passive reveal. But with trying to pack a lot into the template.

    For example, with skill jewelry + one of the various Stealth bonus robes + burglar's bandanna, how much "real" Stealth do you need?

    I am very surprised that passive reveal is still in the game actually....I can recall it having no defenders. It likely has some I suppose. Almost everything in the game does.

    I, for one, have never to my recollection benefited from it. So I doubt I'd miss it.

    -Galen's player
     
  30. Monkey

    Monkey Guest

    Stealth archers wouldn't suffer much from passive revealing as it is. They can stay out of the 4-tile reveal radius if they'd want to.

    We're not talking about being undetectable either. If someone wants to actively use tracking or detect hidden to target several areas, then I'm all for it. But what I don't want is someone with no skill in any detect hidden, to reveal me when I move when he isn't even aware he's doing it. Not at 120 stealth.

    If I want to rely on items, I can settle for 50 stealth if I would want to, and bump it up to 110 just by items. I think the current max for +stealth is sixty through the use of various items.

    That would of course remove some of the template difficulties, though using skill jewellery and all of that just makes the character look so unfinished to me.

    Would it make my overall job as an assassin easier? Well no, my template is geared for assassinating so that's a task I perform extremely well.
     
  31. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    The point is passive detect only works against stealth, not hidden. When you stop, hit your hide macro and passive detect will be of no concern. To be clear let me give you an example.

    First You hide, then you move where there is a skill check vs your stealth. So lets say you can stealth 14 tiles before another check is made. If you stop, you are still in stealth which is subject to passive detect. However if you stop and hit your hide button you are not subject to passive detect. Thus overall it reduces the chance of being detected. It's like a light switch. Leaving it on long enough and you have a good chance to be noticed, however if you turn it off, well you have a better chance. With this and knowing the tile range I see no problem. Using this method in the past has gotten me into some heavily guarded champ and harrower spawns.
     
  32. Monkey

    Monkey Guest

    Then I must have been unaware that standing still is subject to passive detect as well. Good to know though. I've only experienced it when moving from tile to tile, to approach someone. Granted, I've been revealed standing still too, but I always blamed that on people actually using the skill to reveal me, purposely.
     
  33. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    nah, that is more of a coin toss. Now a good size guild might have a dedicated detector, a lot though may rely on JOAT tracking at 20.1, but that is a more of a concern to ninjas stealthed in animal form.

    Take it from an old timer assassin/thief - stick to the shadows and you will be fine.
     
  34. laurlo

    laurlo Guest

    The passive reveal is incredibly annoying... I like the formula idea for it.
     
  35. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    I agreee completely that passive revealing makes the stealth skill useless. I never understood why I get revealed with 120 Stealth and 100 Hiding skill almost EVERY TIME I stealth by other players. Passive reveal should require a high Detect Hidden skill.

    I disagree about the cramped template complaint. People keep asking about a skill cap increase all the time. We players have become too spoiled with features making our templates more and more powerful, that we keep asking for ways to make the game more and more simple for us. We want everything handed out on a silver platter. However, this destroys the challenge and the diversity.
    If you plan your template thoroughly, there is a way to build different types of assassins. The point is, with EVERY template in the game you have to compromise. For example, a Ninja does not necessarily need a healing skill. An assassin is not meant for a long fight, but rather to strike quickly and vanish. You still have dog form to recover your health. Use smoke bombs to get away.

    What also bugs me a lot: Shadow Jump is totally broken. You cannot jump to terrain you could easily teleport to. I don't know what is wrong with Shadow Jumping, but it needs to be repaired.
     
  36. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Why, Siege and Mungen of course. :)

    There's no passive reveal on Siege.
     
  37. christy1221

    christy1221 Slightly Crazed
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    Me too :thumbdown:
     
  38. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    Should have known! I haven't really played much on Siege so i hadn't noticed... It's on the to-do list though!
     
  39. Thobius

    Thobius Guest

    Me three.

    It really is the single most frustrating 'skill' on UO.

    It is about time that the Dev's either completely removed passive reveal or at least adjusted the forumlae. At present I have 310 points of my template placed in hiding, stealth and ninjitsu however against an Elf they're a waste of points.
     
  40. Roisin

    Roisin Guest

    No. Assassins (in the context of RP / RPvP) are not dead and nor will they ever will be if they're resourceful enough. Europa RP is a "level" playing field devoid of almost all "magical" equipment (with the exception of a few minor quivers.) I've had a few hits ruined by passive reveal but then I think there always should be a percentage chance of failure when trying to stealth in such close proximity to someone - especially given the amount of abuse stealth gets in a roleplay environment.

    I do think passive reveal (particularly on elves) is excessive and I do wish it was toned down, but I'm not going to ***** and moan that it's ruined the class when clearly it hasn't.

    Adapt your template, take up archery, work in groups. For those of you who may be non-roleplayers to whom an assassin is simply a fencer with stealth and poisoning I've little to contribute but as a career rogue guildmaster in a long running RP community I'd say that you're somewhat lacking in invention if you find it impossible to carry out a mark simply because of this one game mechanic.


    As for your template, think outside the box. Look to maximize your burst damage as much as possible. A small clique of my ninjitsu loving friends came up with a fantastic high-damage combo that's devastating to anyone regardless of resists; the template leaves you Refresh dependant and a little bit crippled after the initial jump but then that's the cost of wanting to play an assassin and it's playing an assassin how it should be.

    I guess I'm coming across as a bit condescending and a little bit unspecific, offering more abuse than helpful advice. But I'd recommend you persist, find strength in company and if you really insist on being a lone-wolf killer then stick to the classic assassin strengths - patience and the element of surprise. Wait for your opportunity, wait for your mark to be prone and unsuspecting (albeit, not afk =P) and hit. We don't play assassins for half an hour duels we play them for fifteen seconds of impact.
     
  41. Monkey

    Monkey Guest

    That would be me. ;)

    As I've said up there somewhere, I have no issues with being effective as an assassin, which you know as well. However, there is no denying that passive reveal is a completely unnessecary burden and unfair when you match up 20 detect hidden vs 120 stealth, with detect hidden seemingly having a way too high a chance of revealing you.

    It shouldn't be impossible to passively detect someone, but if you invest no points in it at all, you should assume that someone who HAS invested heavily in stealth skills, should actually be able to come close in a majority of the situations.

    I think you still remember the incident where we snuck into that tavern and I got revealed from what, 4 tiles away from the person we were after? He escaped redlined, because he was able to react a lot faster than we'd hoped.

    It isn't game-breaking for me, but it's a petpeeve. Years ago there was no passive revealing and I doubt people were moaning about all the times they got snuck up by stealthers. I mean, that was the whole frigging point of having one.
     
  42. Roisin

    Roisin Guest

    *Cough*

    I mean, yeah. Passive reveal is overpowered. Fix! Fix!
     
  43. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    Oh the ****ers boggled the Code!!! Just found this -

    "Players who have both the stealing and stealth skills at 100 or higher skill have a higher chance to remain hidden at a distance of 1 tile from another player."

    They should of based it off hiding and stealth and not stealing. That can explain a lot. So in other words currently why you are getting revealed so much is that either you have 0 or 20 Joat stealing equated in the formula compounded by the racial bonus, int bonus of the target. Fixing this issue should make it work right.

    The reason why I never had an issue with it is because well I ran a thief.
     
  44. Capt.E

    Capt.E Guest

    When I think of a skill like ninjitsu, the first and foremost thought is of stealth and deception. It only makes sense that a higher level of skill would mean that you are harder to detect. That is why I thought the formula hide+stealth+ninjit would be a counter to passive detect. They are also the basic skills that an assassin template has. It is pretty disconcerting when you are trying to hit a moving target on a stealther anyhow. Add to that the passive reveal that not only your enemies, but even your allies can do, and well the template's effectiveness is more than nerfed, it's almost unuasable as intended. Many people have some success with the template but it involves heavy use of smokebombs and animal form. You generally give up traditional methods of healing to get these 3 skills above or at gm. There are also several ways to reveal players who stealth aside from passive detect. It's not as if you even need detect hidden to combat these templates. It's really nothing more than a nuisance to the stealthers constantly getting revealed.
     
  45. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Making a stealth warrior....Kinda.

    Not an assassin, though, but a PvM warrior-thief with stealth. Whether or not I'll ever be orange to anyone and thus experience passive reveal I can't say...Maybe? Depends on how badly I suck....I mean how well I do....at practicing and developing the character.

    I actually have pretty low expectations but I'm intensely curious. The life of a stealth warrior has always intrigued me.

    -Galen's player
     
  46. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    *Points to last post* Guess no one cares I found a bug. Thought it might be important to those complaining about passive reveal *shrugs*
     
  47. raistca

    raistca Guest

    I definitely agree that passive detect is an issue. Many of the reasons for that have already been stated, but I would like to add that the main reason why it bugs me (apart from being passive revealed while beating a hasty retreat out of despise from the 4 minax goons on atlantic shard and subsequently being...abused in sensitive areas) is that, while archer assassins are great and everything, it is my opinion that the true assassin, from an RP sense, is a melee character. Why? Because a true assassin will make sure that the kill was a success, and the only way to do that is to be right next to them. I can see an archer assassin who needs to drop a well guarded target from a distance because there isn't much other way, but for general purposes the way i see the assassin is with a dagger.

    Sure, as roisin said, it is good to improvise and come up with new ways to do things (that's why my assassin is an archer now, dropped fencing like a rock as soon as I got elder and tried it out with very little success) but I feel like that's a very integral part of the culture of the (fantasy) time period and also for this game. On atlantic it is difficult enough to drop someone with a low-defensive character as it is because reaction times in atlantic pvp are generally measured in fractions of a second.

    But my final point is this: you build a stealth ninjitsu character so that you can make an assassin. You find out that you really can't run the melee skills correctly because of passive revealing. You switch to archery to overcome that. Now you can only use 2 or 3 of your ninjitsu abilities and you're playing a totally different type of character than you started with. In that sense, the assassin is dead.
     
  48. Monkey

    Monkey Guest

    Was busy with some stuff so read it a while ago now, but that's a good find. Really what I'm hoping for is some sort of clarity on this now. They at one point knew that passive reveal was an issue, as they lowered the radius of it I think, but I always did think that there was no noteworthy change to be seen, so there's a fair chance they did muck up the code.
     
  49. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

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    I was looking for the complete formula, however I took another look at the Publish 43 notes. The part I stated deals with passive detect. They based the code on Stealing and Stealth, and not hiding and stealth for what it suppose to be, and that is what is causing all the problems. If you have stealing and stealth there isn't much of an issue, but if you don't well you lose 1/2 your rate to go undetected at 4 tiles at a base, then figure in your targets bonuses, well then it doesn't look good. Thats like going with 50 wep skill and getting hit with hit lower defense more or less.

    So now I know what you are talking about and now we know where the problem is in the coding.
     
  50. Monkey

    Monkey Guest

    Roisin's a foo'. I've been improvising and adapting for years and years now, always working out new templates/tactics to remain as effective as possible. Which works great, but that doesn't mean that passive reveal isn't a pain in the buttocks, or rather, an unnessecary pain.

    As Lefty has determined now, it could just be poor or plain wrong coding. Some clarification on that would be great. Why are only thieves in the current coding allowed to get much closer? Why completely neglect melee assassins?