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Balance Pass Prior SA

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Goodoljoe, Dec 18, 2008.

  1. Goodoljoe

    Goodoljoe Guest

    I heard some vague info regarding a ´´balance`` pass before SA but it wasnt very detailed,all i clearly read is GD breathe is geting nerfed..
    Are rumors true they are trying to make non-archer dexers a bit less useless or im again living in my imaginary wonderland?
     
  2. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Well, we've had several publishes since the GD thing was mentioned, I've asked a few times now what was planned and when, but nada. Honestly, it should have been changed by now, but apparently tamer balance isn't an issue anyone wants to tackle in the immediate future *shrug* I'm a tamer, but I'm getting sick of feeling favoured in this way.

    Even if they made pets controllable with real skill only, you'd see a huge drop in the number of uber pets in UO. But, nerfing the current pet of choice or some tamers' favourite toy will be controversial. So I think that's the reason for the procrastination. We need someone with the flame retardant suit to beat all flame retardant suits, who has the nerve to do what's needed. So I'd say maybe 2011 we'll see a fix. Emphasis on the maybe...

    Wenchy
     
  3. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    Anything with regards to the upcoming balance pass, including the fact that there will be one, should be considered simply rumor until an official announcement is made.

    It has been mentioned by official people, but not through official channels, and some of the rumors are well over 6 months old (like the pet-balance "promise").
     
  4. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    I always thought that people who do not have the REAL skill (but item-bonus instead) should have a slight disadvantage. No matter what the skill.
     
  5. Goodoljoe

    Goodoljoe Guest

    Well my main is also a tamer but the choice was kind of forced unto me as i love close combat templates for PvM but thats just not a realistic view.Im not concerned at all about real skill as tamer can control a GD without problems without any added skill (yea it took a while ) .I always played close combat templates in other games (or tanks as you would call them),when i came back 2 year ago the char i played for over year was a warrior,then i made a tamer when i realiced how overpowered they were,a mage tamer go figure.But whenever someone proposes a dexer improvement there is silence,but tamer threads for improvements are full of YAYS and for nerfs are full of flames.Maybe its a lost cause after all,well see
     
  6. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I think on the forms there's far more criticism of tamers than support for them. When we get any perks, you can guarantee there's plenty of players who'll complain about it. GD's being the most complained about perk in years. However balance is achieved, I think control requirements combined with pet balancing would go a long way to fixing taming. In all honesty I'm just wanting to see balance, however it comes.

    But at the same point, warriors aren't useless. The right kit and template still makes for a powerful character. While I agree tamers need balancing, I'd hardly call warrior templates weak and puny :) The old school pure warrior without chiv or sammy skill is of course in trouble, but nobody seems to give a rat's backside about those templates even within the warrior community. It seems more fashionable to mix and match the wierdest skill combos than to ask for pure warrior love. And I don't know if warriors themselves know how to fix their problems. Aside from "nerf tamers" I don't really hear many warriors coming up with solutions.

    Wenchy
     
  7. Goodoljoe

    Goodoljoe Guest

    Aye,useless was not right word for it.But a caster - tamer etcs can do what a warrior can with much less risk and effort.And much cheaper as well.Outfiting a warrior properly can be very expensive(from a new players perspective,people dont spawn with 15 M in bank,even nowadays that sum is pitiful ) I have seen warriors achieve things(even without sampire templates),but their gear was godly to say the least.They are also absolutely irrelevant in a team perspective,unless you get 2 crosshealing they are more a burden than a benefit when theres 5 mages on background with a couple gds spaming gheals.
     
  8. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Melee dexers are still useful, but in PvP it's almost a suicide to attack a tamer with a GD or Dreads standing next to him. Archers at least dont have to worry about the pet's melee hit. Meleers simply have a lot more pros than cons comparing to archers. Maybe throw melee some bones.

    I think tamers are not overpowered. Unlike many I dont think GD is overpowered at least they cant be controlled at mount speed (excluding animal form tamers). IMO the real overpowered pet is dread warhorse. For 1 extra control slot than nightmare, it has over double the HP, double the melee damage and fire breathe for 45+. At over 600hp it's durable especially they dont have a slayer type against them. If you look at a perfect GD which has 1000hp, with a dragon slayer it's like having 500, if a dexer is trying to kill it. So I dont think GD is that great.

    Also Dreads made super dismount archer (archers are already useful and powerful) possible. You can ride the dread at mount speed and use it when neever and hop back on if you are somehow in trouble.

    Tamers are NOT overpowered SOME pets are especially in PvP. Well anyways I hope pets can be balanced without affecting PvMers.
     
  9. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I think it does depend on how much power you expect in comparison to those other templates though. I think there's a perception in UO that if one character can solo something, everyone should be able to. I'm not sure as a RPer it would make sense that my single little warrior could do the same damage as a greater dragon. Which is why I don't seek that level of power for my warriors. It's not that I prefer tamers, it's just that it doesn't make sense to me as a RPer.

    I don't have a god-like suit on my sammy, but I know the damage that flies above his head compared to my tamer. I'm quite happy with my sammy. But then I don't expect to solo bosses, peerless and the like. I'm not saying that you do, just that my level of expectation isn't so high that I'm feeling puny :)

    What saddens me is that we don't have the population in UO now to really group up with strangers in dungeons any more. And hireling NPCs while once useful are nothing more than cannon fodder. I still remember my guild taking a stack of nobles into the ancient wyrm lair and attacking them to get a stack of NPC archers. I think we killed 4 wyrms before we needed more "noble-bombs" as we called them :D

    Wenchy
     
  10. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    I completely understand what you are saying. Super pet that instant kill people is fine in PvM/RP I mean they are DESIGNED to take down monsters with 1000 to 10000000HP, but as it stands when used against 100ish HP player with CAPPED resist it creates imbalance. It's quite possible for anyone with all 70s suit to be killed within seconds if not instantly when that bad RNG is rolled. Real PvPers would all agree to that. A famous example of GD/Dread combo is Melee Hit->2xFS->Fire breathe, lets leave out the damage from the dismount archer dismount and any moving shot the tamer is going to shove into you. 150+ damage can be easily done in merely a few seconds. Sure the RNG might roll as Melee hit miss->Weaken+Feeble mind->No FB but a bad RNG dont result instant death to tamer while a good RNG results instant death to any victim.

    But oh well, It's amazing DEV let GD and Dreads pass QA and made them tamable. I mean at least make dreads a perma spawn so everyone can get one if they wish.
     
  11. Goodoljoe

    Goodoljoe Guest

    Thats the point,its a solo competition thus tamers and mages out shine,yea ok 2 warriors can crossheal and kill about anything,good luck finding someone willing to do it tho,specially since PvM is prety much waste of time outside of champs,doom and peerles,the less efort it takes the better.
     
  12. daisuke

    daisuke Guest

    i heard mythic got rid of the hardest to balance pet class on thier new DAOC server (theurgs). why not just make a tamerless UO server and see how many people switch xD
     
  13. Goodoljoe

    Goodoljoe Guest

    Daoc maybe has tamer-less servers,but UO has player-less servers :p
     
  14. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    IMO the strongest 1 v 1 pvm templates in the game are all dexers. I have powerful casters and tamers. My dexer outperforms them on a lot of 1v1 boss content.

    different templates specialize on different content.
     
  15. Pied Piper

    Pied Piper Adventurer
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    Those peeps running those ninja poison dexers can be tuff to kill and the most annoying template to fight IMHO

    Even worse if your an elf...no JOAT reveal or tracking

    To me it seems a dexer (with stealth of course) is a much more viable template on siege than on a prodo shard for more reasons than the downtoned gear most non factioneeers run with.

    The reason IMHO is because passive reveal works on prodo but not on siege. I think conscerning stealth and reveal; the prodo shards would be better for dexers if stealth isn't passively revealed so easy.

    As for siege? There are sum peeps being highly successful with Melee Dexers with stealth.

    As for a meele dexer without stealth? Honestly dude what Shouldhappen to a guy running up to archers and mages with just a sword....


    In UO archery and magery are the equivalent to guns in RL :)

    Honestly i know it is a GAME...but lets not make it sooooo fantasy based that common sense doesn't apply....

    Would you really bring jus a sword without stealth to a gun fight!?

    If so then you deserve the outcome....Ask the North American Indians that question....by the time they started using guns it was far too late...


    As for a DRAGON? IMHO in a ANY game one guy should not be able to kill a dragon....sumthing UO has had major probs with in the past. (Regular Dragons Suck)

    Other wise if you cant correctly make a ferocious Dragon (The Newest Godzilla movie was perfect example too!) you should stick to just chameleons or lizards or sumin...

    A dragon should be ferocious and make ppl SCARED to fight it...

    Nuff said...

    UO lost PvP long time ago... its never one on one hardly EVER!

    So UO lost its PvP status long time ago...until communities actually put together dueling events etc...then its not PvP

    may be PKing or Pgriefing or PvGank but UO is NOT PvP...

    by defintion of PvP its Player versus Player combat...not one player fightin another player whom calls in a gank cuz hes gettin pwned?

    the word Player versus Player is not plural at all as a matter of fact....

    So basically until UO turns into a game called UO 1 vs 1 duel or sumin....
    lets all jus play and have fun because of all the online boards iv'e seen in my life...

    THERE IS MORE FRIKIN CRYING AND PPL SCREAMING NERF THAN I'VE EVER SEEN FOR ANY GAME EVER!!!!!!!!

    If it isnt GDs its archers, if it isnt archers its bards, if it isnt bards its necros, if it isnt necros its vamp sammies....etc etc...

    Anyone else see a disturbing trend of Crying like tittybabys here?

    Honestly man I'm tired of goining to stratics forum wasting 1hr or so everytime i try to read stuffs for actual REAL useful info and not a bunch of BS.

    All this craps done been rammed in the ground over and over and i wanna see more junk sent to the Spells and Rants cuz half these threads are BS
     
  16. Leurocian

    Leurocian UO Legend
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    We are currently reviewing balance tasks that we want to do both live and SA. We have compiled an initial list of tasks that we'd like to do such as pet balance, weapons balance, mysticism/throwing balance, other misc balance tasks, etc.

    In fact, I had a meeting yesterday with my system designer partner in crime to discuss this very topic. After tomorrow, most of us will be on holiday break. After the holidays, we will discuss and prioritize what the design team wants to tackle.

    Patrick "Leurocian" Malott
    Lead Game Designer, Ultima Online
    Mythic Entertainment, an EA Studio
     
  17. Goodoljoe

    Goodoljoe Guest

    Thank you very much Leurocian
     
  18. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Please by all thats holy when you do balance please balance up instead of constant nerfs of everything. As balance have become the nerf word of late try the other way around trust me it will work better. Make weaker skills and abilities stronger to keep up with the stronger abilities. Like that it wont be lets nerf this and then make that particular skill group useless then hear people from that skill group call for nerf "balance" of the other skill groups to keep up with there nerf. And so on and so on whith the never ending process.
    In addition please remmeber if you decide to nerf because of pvp keep the nerf to pvp and dont let it effect pvm. They are 2 different play styles where youre pvp opponent is caped in the use of there skills the pvm opponents have no such cap in there skills and abilities. I will also add in the 3rd playstyle which is siege type servers. What works for siege doesnt mean it works for production feluccia and Trammel. I understand it's alot of work to try to sort it out but dont let one affect the other. What you balance may need it in siege may not need it in felluccia and definelty trammel. It's 3 types of play areas you working on so you must only send out updates needed for each type of server.
    Thank you for youre time and work in UO.
     
  19. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Thanks a lot for the update Leurocian, glad you guys are still looking at this issue :)

    Hope you all have a great holiday.

    Wenchy
     
  20. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    But it makes RP sense that someone can walk up to a huge beast that is the greater dragon and start talking to it and ask it "to be my friend"? The greater dragon should be able to just look at these so-called tamers and say "Do my bidding!" and the tamers should be instantly tamed....that is if you want things to be fair in RP.
     
  21. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Balance up is a good idea and I understand exactly what you mean. But if we are talking about PvP how do you balance a player UP so it matches the power of a Instant killing GD/Dread+Player? How are you going to balance UP melee dexers when they simply cant get near archers?

    Not trying to bash you but reasonable "balancing" goes either way. If we look back when all the WoD AI instant kill archers were ruling and lets keep balance it up then the game will turn into a freak show. I mean WoD instant kill AI archer vs 1 spell instant kill mage vs 1 hit kill melee dexers vs 1 hit kill pets? yea it might be balanced but to be honest it's a balance that I would rather quit. What's the fun in battle that only lasts maximum of 1 swing/shot/spell/all kill? Limitless balancing UP will unquestionably result in "I touched you first so you lose". You sure that's really what you want?

    Anyways thanks, at least DEVs responded so I guess that they still care. :bowdown:
     
  22. Mark Knotts

    Mark Knotts Guest

    ^ Please.

    For example (weapon balance pass):
    Diamond Mace - 3.00s - 14-17 damage
    Broadsword - 3.25s - 14-15 damage

    Don't nerf the diamond mace to broadsword level (speed/damage) when instead you can give the broadsword some love. Maybe it's just me but I'd like some of the classic weapons to be viable once again. I would love to use a viking sword because it has a great in-hand animation/graphic. It's just too slow atm. :[
     
  23. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    We've had tameable dragons for many years. It makes sense that if tamers have perfected their skills taming normal dragons they can eventually convince a greater to follow them. Though I've always been tamed by my pets, UO and RL ones lol. Pity real skill doesn't come into it in UO of course, but that wasn't my design.

    I don't agree with the power GDs have, but power and balance aren't RP issues. The GD could have been implemented as a beefed up dragon that wasn't uber powerful and satisfied tamers in bringing their old dragons more up-to-date in their abilities. I wish it had been an evolution that required involvement from the tamer and hard work, involving an older normal dragon, but I don't think that's a feasible thing for the developers to implement.

    But in all honesty, would you even agree with a GD which was balanced to a modest level? How far down in strength does a greater have to come before you don't complain about it? Because I realise you've complained about GDs, in just about every GD thread since their release. I get the impression that nothing would satisfy you in terms of a balance pass unless it involved setting GD's wild, and that it seems to have little to do with RP ;)

    Wenchy
     
  24. Magneto2272

    Magneto2272 Guest

    a realistic balance pass for non-archer [one tile range dexxers]: re-implementing resist once again. these days, what does resist actually resist? not much. i feel that it should resist up to 40% spell damage at 120 skill per successful check.

    it is disgusting that an item [trapped box] combined with another item [enahcnted apple] can literally supplant and ENTIRE skill.

    its not difficult to wonder why resist is considered unneccesary now.

    two.
    items.


    one more realistic balance pass:

    not many templates are truly homogenous any longer. its cool that anyone can be a cook mage ninja tamer lockpick or whatever, but because there are literally no distinct advantages of a melee combatant, there is no incentive to play one. why play a macer, fencer, or swordsman, when i can do all of that with a wide range be it marcher or mage?

    no reason whatsoever is the answer. so i suggest the following:

    if a template possesses
    120 swords/fencing/macing
    120 tactics
    120 anatomy,

    the player has a 100% chance to not be disarmed.

    re-implementing resist to a respectable level and making available the possibility of maintaining what i like to call weapon lock, would see dexxer templates flourish.

    and more importantly, swing the pendulum that has been for so many years been tilted to mages and archers.

    throw an old dog a bone and he'll show you a new trick.
    dont make him beg for it.
     
  25. Goodoljoe

    Goodoljoe Guest

    There are mages out there runing as much or more defense than your average dexter runing their capped FC/FCR macros and spaming mortal wound dismount archers are as fun to fight as watching a dead fish float.While there are succesfull non ranged dexers in the pvp scene,they still need a lot of love.And in a pvm perspective,love is short of a word,maybe more of a marriage with kids is needed.While I see the point of ´´some dexers are best to solo this and tat`` are pefectly valid,many people are not in epeen competitions and who can solo the bigest stuff.I for one do not think the way is to nerf one thing to fix another as previously stated,I dont pretend to make mages and archers lose their range-pwness,that would be silly,nor nerf tamers,as they are a majority of population these days (go figure o_O ..) . Variety makes things interesting,if you want to realistically compete,you have a few standard templates to work with,which all happen to be mages and archers.I guess I could dump 99 necro in my dexer and go solo parox and trav,I could probably do it even without vampire at all if i tried hard enough,but that is hardly my point.
     
  26. kitiara-atlantic

    kitiara-atlantic Lore Master
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    Here are the notes I took at the Chicago Town Hall Meeting in October re: the balance pass:

    The Balance Pass:

    * Will likely be pushed as a publish in early 2009, prior to the release of Stygian Abyss.
    * Greater Dragon fire breath will be nerfed for balance. It is much too powerful as is.
    * Weapon accuracy is currently much too dependent on HCI and DCI and needs to be balanced.
    * Chivalry will get a good amount of attention in the balance pass, as the team is not happy with how it is currently a 60 point skill – ie. There’s really no reason to train it over 60, as you get a majority of the benefits of the skill even at that low level. Skills will be evaluated to make sure they scale properly to their maxes.
    * Special moves are being investigated in the balance pass.
    * Spell casting will be scaled to match the caster’s skill level to the power of the spell effects.

    Here are the rest of my notes:
    http://www.uocraft.com/uo-town-hall-meetings/uo-town-hall-meeting-chicago-2008/
     
  27. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Yea I remmeber that I smell NERFS all Nerfs They just dont know the meaning of balancing up. For example add in more chiv skills at higher level imagine them making eoo and consecrete and chiv heal at 100 chiv skill where are warriors suppose to get the other points. Chiv is practicaly mandatory to stand a chance against monsters. Then comes the gd breath- If they nerf that on a whole then the gd breath of wild dragons will be nothing which means we can kill gd for leather as easy as we kill regular dragons. And all gd pets will be nerfed to be usable but less so in monster battles against these godly creatures that all can easily one hit kill you and cast 2 spells and hit you whithin 1 sec of screen. Would be nicer if they can just nerf breath for pvp tame beast against playerble characters not nerf breth in a whole meaning tame beast do less damage to monsters and untamed dragons do less damage to players.
    When it comes to hci and dci I bet they wont keep it to pvp only and it will effect pvm horribly
    The special moves investigation will surely effect pvm will be another nerf
    And the spell casting will ahve to be a nerf. They need to replace every single balance word in there to nerf. Balance means you are allowed to balance up not nerf everything to item identification use. It's called the NERF PASS.
     
  28. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    Any Tamer: "Will you be my friend? I have always wanted a pet like you"
    Any Dragon(in reply): "Will you be my lunch? You look tasty and good in ketchup"

    But seriously,dragons of any type should not be tamable at all if RP and old dragon lore is followed. In lore they are far wiser than any human or even elf that would wish to tame one. IMHO the greater dragons are "breaking the rules". Rules are set that says I can not have any resist above 70(energy 75 for elf) but yet the tamer can tame something that has what....85-90 resist? How is that fair?

    Personally I have no problems with the GD itself. My beef is that they are tamable.I like the GD. I like the challenge of the GD. I hate to see one of those supposed "majestic creatures" following a tamer like a puppy.
     
  29. Goodoljoe

    Goodoljoe Guest

    I have to agree with Kaiser there,pure warriors are prety much a thing of the past left for RPers to mess with (no pun,rp is good).The templates for a toe to toe character are already absolutely cramped up with as few as 60-70 points in chivalry,even then they arent particularly versatile compared to a bazilion other builds.Bushido still has that spell that is prety much useless and more perjudicial than anything (Honorable Execution).
    As far as counter attack is not particularly useufl either,but at least it doesnt get you killed in an instant like execution does.
     
  30. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    LOL I've been eaten plenty of times without ketchup ;)

    Not all fantasy and RP follows the same cookie-cutter rules and lore. This is a game which has had tame dragons at least for the 10 years I've played. Surely it's time to accept that UO has its own lore, and perhaps our dragons aren't as sharp witted as those you've read of in books. The game gives a player the setting and items (or pets) they have available, the player then goes on and RPs to the best of their ability within that game. If you don't feel so strongly that UO dragons should be tame, why start and continue playing UO in the first place?

    But it could be argued that your beliefs that GDs shouldn't be tameable are based on lore and ideals that comes from outside UO. Why not let UO be different and just accept it as such? I take games as I find them, I don't always stick around, but I love trying to work my way into a fresh take on fantasy. I don't think cookie cutter with anything fantasy because it spoils the whole thing. That's the challenge as you develop as a RPer, to build more unique stories and characters who aren't stereotyped.

    Wenchy
     
  31. Speedy Orkit

    Speedy Orkit Grand Inquisitor
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    I feel like these are what need to be assessed

    Nerf:
    Dragon Breath
    Death Strike, 60 damage with one hit is a bit ridiculous.
    Hide/Stealth - Smoke bombs are too powerful. Hide/stealth is fine, the SB are not.
    Lightning strike in PvP. It is very common to get two in a row, 70 damage with no effort and about 10 mana cost.

    Strengthen:
    Non-archer dexers. Increase swing cap to 1.0, etc
    Healing skill. Give it some other properties.
    Resist - This skill has become almost obsolete on most templates.
    RUNIC KITS - I can not stress this enough....this stuff is ridiculous. You can burn 5 kits and get literally nothing.
    Tracking/Detect hidden - Put these skills together. Having both makes it near impossible to play a viable template.

    Things I'd like to see added:
    Make power scrolls able to be turned in for deco items or something.
    Put house taxes in order - Just another gold sink, but make it somewhat expensive. Perhaps 10% of the houses value compounded weekly, IE a castle would cost about 400k a month to have.
    Deco items for gold turn in - Anywhere between 1-50m depending on the item, simply another sink.
    New hair styles
    Enhance wrestling, the disarm of spell books have hurt this skill badly.
     
  32. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    LOL I've been eaten plenty of times without ketchup ;)

    Not all fantasy and RP follows the same cookie-cutter rules and lore. Nor should it. This is a game which has had tame dragons at least for the 10 years I've played. Surely it's time to accept that UO has its own lore, and perhaps our dragons aren't the same as those you've read of in books. The game gives a player the setting and items (or pets) they have available, the player then goes on and RPs to the best of their ability within that game. If you don't feel so strongly that UO dragons should be tame, why start and continue playing UO in the first place?

    But it could be argued that your beliefs that GDs shouldn't be tameable are based on lore and ideals that comes from outside UO. Why not let UO be different and just accept it as such? I take games as I find them, I don't always stick around, but I love trying to work my way into a fresh take on fantasy. I don't think cookie cutter with anything fantasy because it spoils the whole thing. That's the challenge as you develop as a RPer, to build more unique stories and characters who aren't stereotyped.

    Wenchy
     
  33. mr.blackmage

    mr.blackmage Guest

    pure mages are obsolete, too.
     
  34. Goodoljoe

    Goodoljoe Guest

    Its way too late to remove GD ppl is too used to them,the result of removing them all together would be catastrophic to player base.The firebreathe nerf will def hurt tamers in PvP,as far as PvM,will just make them kill things ´´ a bit`` slower.Since the adv token introduction sales in both gold and money,one day old tamers with jewels and GDS are a common sight.Everyone and their mother has a tamer now,as those who were to lazy to raise it to a point items would give skill to control most powerful pets dont have that barrier anymore.My untrained cu hits more often and harder than average legendary archer or warrior that probably spent lots of time and or gold for a slayer weapon and DI suit,that is nowhere as versatile.My GD eats alive a x6 120 warrior in guild in seconds (i mean in seconds) ,thats consdering he doesnt decide to firebreathe,then its miliseconds.And lets not start dicussing what makes sense and what does not in a RP perspective,nothing in UO makes sense,or any other fantasy game for that matter.Oh,and the only one person rule allowed to honor a target is beyond silly,specially in peerles and doom.If this was not enough if anyone farts near a monster and it doesnt have a mad hp regen say bye to honor it :(
     
  35. Pied Piper

    Pied Piper Adventurer
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    LOL this thread would be the equivalent of people playing 1st person shooter PvP game such as Battle Field and then posting about how Army Tanks and Helicopters should be nerfed because his lil army man on foot stands no chance against it....

    Seriously PvP in UO is never 1vs1 anyways unless its a community or something setup in which it isn't, so I dont see why it matters AT ALL...



    For the dragon Lore peeps in here...CRIMSON DRAGONS....can't tame em I've tried....

    At least they don't use a rock paper scissors concept in their templates for PvP like friggin Wow...

    BTW How come UO Dev is so obsessed with tamable horses!? I mean if they plan on making new tameables to ride in the future please no more horses?

    The Dreads and stuff were awesome tho but i think now UO has all the horseys covered now. Non tamers can get sum love with faction warhorses which was good thinking etc etc...

    Just if they get rid of the drags this game gonna turn into "My Lil Ponies" real quick IMHO

    And ppl will still cry about tamers....

    I think a Giant Rideable Serpent or Spider or sumin off the wall would be neat...
     
  36. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    I wouldn't want UO to be cookie-cutter but UO was not created in a vacuum.There is alot of D&D left still in UO. In the spirit of not being "cookie cutter" I want a few things back that tamers whined about. I want my necro to be able to tame the Cu with the dire wolf familier...all in the name of not being cookie cutter. Tamers can have a pet that does upwards of 80 damage fire breaths-So I want the double-strike axer nerf to be unnerfed...all in the name of not being cookie-cutter.
     
  37. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    With how the Dev's favor the tamers,I am sure you'll get them soon enough.It will be a 10-slotter..but the tamers will be given 10 slots.
     
  38. Chaosy

    Chaosy Guest

    Dragon breath = needs to be toned down
    Death strike = it's fine. They already nerfed it when they put in the hiding/stealth/tracking requirements. You can get 60 damage a pop, but only if you have the skills invested, which severely limits your other offensive abilities.
    Hide/stealth = smoke bombs are a little lame since it's a guaranteed hide immediately upon use.
    Lightning strike = The RNG is what it is. :\

    Non-dexer archers = no increased swing cap unless you want to buff up mage casting as well.
    Healing = it has the new faction aids, but I agree that it should be improved somewhat. However, with the current plethora of consumables, healing is still a very useful skill as it is.
    Resist = needs something to improve it and make it more valuable.
    Runic kits = there is already enough uber armor out there. We don't need more, especially not with SA on the horizon.
    Tracking/detect = no opinion.

    As for your gold sinks, they will probably cause an outrage. I do believe, however, that disarmable spellbooks were quite unnecessary.

    Just my $0.02.
     
  39. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    I was just thinking... it would be nice to choose which arm you want to disarm... For example, when fighting a parry dexer, you most always disarm their weapon first...Why can't we choose to disarm their shield instead? Leaving them a little more defensively vulnerable.
     
  40. Borric

    Borric Seasoned Veteran
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    Just seems to me like there has never been PVP "balance" in UO. Ever.
     
  41. Chaosy

    Chaosy Guest

    Actually, PvP was great back when you were either a 7x mage or a 7x dexer, right before they introduced UO:R.
     
  42. Thashinel

    Thashinel Guest

    I wonder if this means I should hold my goal of being a 120 tamer :(
     
  43. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    UO wasn't created in a vacuum, but UO lore has been created which you can't just say is wrong because you feel it should be more D&D. I love D&D, but I don't think it should always dictate how a game uses dragons. UO clearly has had tameable dragons for 10 years+. After 10 years, it's time you accepted UO had different dragon lore and that involves tamed dragons.

    As for the necros taming cu sidhe thing. Necromancy isn't a virtuous magic, cu sidhe openly attack those with negative karma. There is no logic or sense in a cu sidhe being tameable by a necro with 0 taming skill. Even if they had taming and necro, they're still going to smell like a necro to a dog. Especially one with a nose the size of a cu sidhe nose. Much as my necro tamer wouldn't mind an easier chance at taming cu's, I don't think it would make sense. You can still use the dark wolf to tame kitsune though :)

    I think axers need a change, but rather than boost them to do the damage that a GD does, I'd like the GD pulled down a few pegs first. Otherwise we all end up in a crazy land of super-human damage, and somehow I don't think that would translate favourably in PvP. :D Mind you, if an axer template is doing more damage than a GD, someone might be more hated than tamers lol. I'd welcome that, but I wouldn't fancy meeting one in a dark alley.

    Wenchy
     
  44. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    Ok umm yeah...so using your logic here would mean that anyone without the needed skill wouldn't be able to equip a sword or shield either. Or wear the virtue set if they were negitave karma. What lore are you following anyway with the Cu? UO lore or Celtic lore? Pot calling the kettle black on this one?
     
  45. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    When old axer were around my 7xGM axer with Sup. Vanq axe was able to deal around 40 to 50 dmg to plates and 50 to 60 to cloth mages. I dont know the exact damages because back then in "better" UO times there's no numbers floating so you can never tell exactly how much damage you dealt/received unless someone is watching their hp number figure when you hit them and tell you how much dmg it was.

    Anyways old axer was nearly overpowered at a point I was able to 3 hit kill another dexer in plate and 2 hit kill GURRANTEED against a mage. It was nerfed to give a cap to around 40 damage to all axers but the balance was late. Old axer has the melee power of a GD minus dragon breathe and spells and less 900hp and was nerfed.

    Then AoS hits and changed how damage increase works for LJ and killed the axers. GM LJ dmg bonus went from 25% extra TOTAL DMG (thats around 10 to 15dmg a hit) to 25% weapon damage(hmm 5dmg on the slowest pos 2hander you can find). And what suprisied me is that they have NEVER mentioned about bring it back. :sad4:

    anyways IMO in the balance pass we should see:
    1. Pet balance (Dread/GD being amazing powerful especially in PvP). Leave the pet itself along and do something when the pet's target is a player (halved damage/Pet casts like player ect is a good start)

    2. Weapon specials... who the heck use Talon Strike? 10 dmg over 5 seconds that doesnt disrrupt casting wtfmate? what about Dual Weird that gives like 10ssi to an already fast weapon while swing cap dont change? oh yea Force of Nature which does a TINY bit more damage than a crushing blow but deals 20 to 30 direct damage to yourself.... Thats just a small portion of examples where weapon specials are completely screwed up.

    3. Melee dexer should have more advantages compare to archers and the advantage isnt skill dependent. I mean for the same skill investment archer got the range for free and super bows nowdays archers really dont shoot slower than dexers. Archer range in PvP actually translate into MORE effective swings that also hits HARDER.

    4. Pure mage is not viable in PvP. If you dont agree, you dont know how to play a mage or you dont PvP at all.

    5. HCI/DCI/EP have too much impact in game play.

    6. Magic resist should do more. I purpose giving non-necro mages a 10% spell damage boost across the board and spell resist to resist up to 12% of the damage. OR Curse should be stronger more powerful and can resist RC/Apples/Faction aids especially with inscribe. Currently magic resist is only useful after you got rezzed and dry looted assuming you do your homework(get all the comsumables tboxes) when you go PvP. (this change is to throw pure mage a bone)

    7. Quiver type of item for melee.

    8. Balance for all 2-handed melee weapon, and velocity kind of double proc.

    err too much to say, so I give up here. sorry.
     
  46. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Oh please. Respond to the points made, not ones you've made up :) I was talking about a specific issue that you raised, and how cu's behave in UO. It has nothing to do with armour or Celtic lore. Simply this, cu sidhe attack negative karma players on sight. So you can say they're good aligned. Necromancy is a dark magic and necros often have neg karma. If the cu will attack that necro because of their karma, why on earth would that necro have a successful tame attempt first time when taming the cu? He should be running around ragged trying to pacify that beast, in fear of his life. Not walk up and tame it first time.

    I would have no issue if a necro had to work darn hard at convincing a cu to follow him, because he can't bond with it unless he has taming, and he wouldn't be able to jump in when a tamer was trying to tame a coloured pup and guarantee first-time success. But that was what happened, and you know full well that necros themselves abused that ability to the point they annoyed everyone and harsh changes were made. Had necros behaved differently, perhaps a more moderate change would have been added. A case of some ruining it for others IMO.

    As to your other arguments, yes, I'd expect virtue armour to work better for the virtuous, but doing the right thing by a virtue sometimes means you have to do something bad with your character's karma, so It's not a perfect system to affect armour properties with.

    I think real skill should always be better than either twinked or item based, but in RL, anyone can swing a sword or hold a shield up. Skill just means they can use them properly. I don't use mage weps on my chars though. If I want melee I have a better range of weapons to choose from if I have the weapon skills and template to do the damage. I prefer my chars to be more specialised than many hybrid players run. I'm sure mage weapons are abused by some players, but I wouldn't be upset if mage weapons went or were changed.

    Wenchy
     
  47. Mythic

    Mythic Guest

    HERE HERE! sorry, Im sure im coming into the fight a bit late, 2 comments

    1. I too want to know just what in the flyin left squirrels nut happened to resist. Hell not just 2 items but 1 spell negates your resist skill completely. Ive been an advocate for fixing the resist skill for a while now, but no luck yet.
    and 2. I forgot what the hell I was gunna say anyway. dammed resist!
     
  48. The GD is powerful, as it should be. I have fought some guys that can live through 2 GD attacking them, by using the faction aids, and still be able to kill the tamer. I have also seen a GD eat someone in milliseconds. But there are lots of things that need a little working. Archers are well overpowered. If I am a mage and I cast an Explosion on you, you can still hit me with and AI arrow or whatever. Its an explosion on your face, I would like to see a real archer get there face exploded and still hit there target. I recommend some form of disruption for any melee skill when such things occur. With that you could also have the resist, actaully resist such things and some of the gimp melee temps would be more forced into having resist because it would actually be beneficial to have.... I also think smoke bombs are a bit over the top being able to hide anytime anywhere. Stealthers should also not be able to keep stealthing with a special ability loaded, I dont mind them walking around and even taking a pop shot with there reg wep or skill, but to just come out specials blazing it kinda silly. Also the swing speed on weps should be adressed, they keep getting higher and higher, mages fc and fcr arent getting any higher plus we fizzle, the faster the weps get the more useless a mage gets. So all in all the GD is a big help to try and calm down some of the melee temps right now, its either be an archer or a tamer, and sometimes you get both...
     
  49. Goodoljoe

    Goodoljoe Guest

    I dont think we should take faction bandages and consumables into consideration as most people are not into them.In fact many people that run around in full faction gear just farmed silver and probably killed a friend over and over to get the ranks then just run back to tram where he cant lose the stuff nor lose the ranks.Lets also not forget point of this thread is not a 1v1 pvp competition for 2 obvious reasons,because ganks are way to go,and most people PvM and just go fell for champs(and usually die miserably to reds because lack of experience) .