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Balanced Property on Bows

Discussion in 'UHall' started by ingsmsico, May 13, 2010.

  1. ingsmsico

    ingsmsico Visitor

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    at the very least this needs to be debated. I think it needs to go. I'd like someone to try to convince me otherwise.
     
  2. Kellgory

    Kellgory Certifiable
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    All other weapon classes have one handed options except for archery. If there was a one handed archery weapon then the balanced propery wouldn't be needed. Maybe they could introduce the sling and in order to use it you would need pebbles which would be made from crushing stones that are mined. Then again you would have people argue that weapon should be in the throwing skill group instead of archery.
     
  3. I think you've got this argument backwards. If you want to change it, YOU need to convince the UO community and the Developers that it needs to change. You didn't even attempt to create an argument for the change... you didn't do your part.
     
  4. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    From 1997-2005 (8 years) archers couldn't use pots, no? Assuming the "balanced" property is that old (ML launch?), from 2005-present (5 years), archers have had the balanced property.

    Probably easier to change moving shot and the like, hehe.

    But I agree, archers should never have been given balanced option. It surely wasn't broke after 8 years, archers were not made to use pots or use parry because the Devs back then knew what would happen in PvP.

    Least archers can't parry yet lol.
     
  5. Kellgory

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    Instead of removing the balanced property to bows they would most likely add it to all two handed weapons and then require having the alchemy skill to be able to use pots (50 skill min with 50% effectiveness and GM skill required for full effect). Why ****-off one group of players when you can ****-off all of them.
     

  6. Then we should get the one shot kill back if you take the Balanced away from us. We had the one shot kill for long enough, surely we need it as we had it for so long eh?


    Lets not stop there, If Archers cant chug a pot with a bow in their hand Mages should suffer the same penalty, if you have a mage book/weapon/shield you cant chug a pot ehh lets go the whole hog not just a half measure.

    While we are at it, how about giving the mage a penalty for spaming the same spell over and over. If a mage spams para/posion it uses double mana same with any spell they choose to spam. Just like an archer if they choose to chain special shots its costs double mana.
     
  7. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Agreed.

    I think the balanced property should be available to all two handed weapons, making those weapons a viable option in todays age of consumables.

    Couple that with a change to enhance pots.

    Without alchemy you can use pots, but they aren't that effective. Lets say

    a gheal pot does 20hp like it would without enhance pots.

    a gcure pot still cures poison, but the level is determined by the alchemy skill.

    The alchemy skill then adds 30% enhance pots at gm (which the enhance pots property can then add 50% of that 30%, so you can bump this to 45%, or at 66 alchemy (20%, bump it to 30%..etc)

    I have always felt the enhance pots property was backwards, that it should be an addition to the alchemy enhance, not before.
     
  8. Jeff.

    Jeff. Guest

    Anything to nerf dexxers is fine by me. Dexxers are an easy mode for people who don't know how to play a mage, and are even easier with imbuing since every newbie can run around with the best equipment.
     
  9. Since when was this mages online?

    Magery nerf is whats needed.
     
  10. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    oh christ, take your mages vs dexers argument somewhere else.
     
  11. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    - Archery = Potions, range, shooting on the move, players eventually work around the lack of speed and benefit from high damage values.

    - 2Handed Melee = No potions, not ranged, speed issues could be dealt with and they also offer high damage values. Higher block chances by Bushido are neglectable or pale in comparison to ranged attacks as demonstrated week-by-week by archers.

    - Parrying, Evasion and DCI templates do not "own" archers, they "owns" ALL slow weapons-based templates just the same. In fact archery would still prevail over 2Handed melee weapons against those templates due to having ranged attacks AND potions alone.

    - Balanced property on 2Handed melee weapons would render one-handed weapons completely obsolete as well due to the work-arounds out there about swing speed. DEX potions, high stamina increase along with max base DEX, SSI on every possible part of a suit and weapon and so on.

    - If "Balanced" was removed, templates such as shield-and-weapon or melee two-handed warriors would instantly be "revived". Right now you're simply better off using a bow if you were going to opt for a two-handed weapon. Bows completely replace those due to "Balanced", as if ranged attacks weren't enough, as it is.

    - Parry Mages would then still have the advantage of potions due to shields being one-handed and would fare as well as they do now in dealing with archery and weapon skill templates but they are too specialized and often pale in comparison to Mystic/Mages or Necro/Mages who forfeit parrying when fighting against them, there is balance in this.

    Finally one-handed weapon templates would CEASE to be TOP favourites due to low damage(compared to 2Handed melee templates which then one would offer a motive to play as), no range along with only landing a hit when the archer or caster stands still and finally a warrior with a shield and a weapon would have the advantage of parry.
    Fair prices to pay for being able to STILL chug potions without pausing at all and having more(not "higher" of course) chances to interrupt casters or use special moves as well as a decent base potential to kill other melee or ranged templates.

    Do the maths between the above sentences and you tell me why "Balanced" by itself, not just on archery(but even more so there), could be considered easily over-powered. I think there is nothing mentioned above that the OP should have to point out to anyone who has been playing Ultima Online for the last months.

    I personally agree that "Balanced" should ideally be removed.

    Not to mention it could mean that if we ever get them, dual wield weapons will not face the same problems 2Handed weapons face now due to potions and "Balanced", namely being completely ignored by players.
     
  12. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    lol you're just sort of rage posting, aren't you?

    A yumi's double can nearly if not one hit kill right now, as it is. Prior to AOS, archer mages were a fun template, but I really don't know what you're talking about "one hit kill," unless you're talking about secondary skills like Bushido's LS, something melee used as well.

    And if you have a mage book/wep and shield you can't chug, so... I guess you are just a noob who never learned to play a mage. I'm sorry for your anger :/.
     
  13. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Not sure if you PvP, but, wow. If anything, I'd rather see potions become useless for all templates without alchemy, for starters. Heh, but as Kellgory joked, PvP is already ****ed up as it is, why not **** it up some more.
     
  14. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Errrm. Read the rest of my thing to, which is kind of a nerf to pots.


    Yes i pvp, and i play mages =/ with 1 dexer, and a half dexer.. lol
    My chars i pvp with:
    blue sw/ninja/scribe/mage
    blue mystic/dexer
    red sw/ninja/scribe/mage
    red mystic/mage
    red pure mage (wrestle)
    red fencer/archer
    red necro/scribe/mage


    blue thief (i haven't been on him in a LONG time)
    other chars are support..crafters/tamer i sort of have a sampire lol



    That being said, i wouldn't mind seeing this. I can think of some drawbacks to it, but not game changing ones. As it is now i could just as easily switch between one and 2 handed weaps to chug pots (pre-imbuing i did it all the time on my archer)

    Would you mind listing the drawbacks that hopped into your head when you read that? i'd be curious if i missed something :)

    But of course, i don't think i'd care to see this unless they did tie pots to alchemy, or to some new timers. i abuse the hell out of pots, so its not like im taking a shot at them .. =(
     
  15. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Ah, sorry for being short with the "don't know if you PvP." Just thinking about evasion bushido alchs, at the least. I didn't read 2H weapons as bows too I guess :(.

    I still think balanced should have been reserved for special, PvM bows, if anything, and think messing with the function of 2H PvP was a mistake.
     
  16. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    definitly agree, i think balanced should never have been added to the game. But since it is here and pretty forged into many peoples playstyle, i would imagine it is here to stay.

    All that leaves would be evening the playing field...i could see a bushido alchy being nasty, but that would also mean they would have to invest skill in alchy, to evade they need parry, so im not sure what skill they give up to do it.

    Besides, your standard evade dexer is simple enough to kill o.0 for a mage atleast lol

    Personally... i just wanna see mor people toting around hallys, spears, and such, not these wimpy ass wooden swords (bokuto) and such lol
     

  17. Yes im raging, all i ever hear is nerf the archer this nerf the archer that. The archer is now at a point where it is no longer worth playing in PvP. Still good for PvM, but it has now become a dead skill.

    Funny im standing at the bank now..with a mage book in my hand look i can chug a pot, now i swap to my plain sword, look i can chug a pot, look i now have a shield on still got one hand free, and guess what i can chug a pot. I never said you had all 3 in your hand you fool!

    Who is the noob?
     
  18. FIRE[TDR]

    FIRE[TDR] Guest

    The real truth is that there is a templet that can beat any other templet in the game. It may not be a desireable templet, but there is an anwser for what anyone calls an overpowered templet. You just have to pick your poison.
     
  19. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Archer is no good in pvp eh... do you really pvp?
    Rage posting is one thing, bs posting is another story.
     
  20. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Exactly. there is no awesome super offense super defense template. you trade them off and balance them as much as you can. These days people lean toward offense, and try to squeeze in ninja to run away. it is what it is.
     
  21. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Not to be mean, but, if you can't PvP on your archer, I think you answered your own question. Moving shot, mortal, dismount, concussion, armor ignore, ninjitsu darts, double shot; there's more than enough for archers to play with ;P and they are far from worthless in PvP. Even without pots it's easy enough to imbue a suit and get 4/6 chiv.
     
  22. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest


    1.5 Second Swing Speed *Comp Bow*
    Balanced
    Double Hit Spell
    Maximum Damage AI with Least Ammount of DI% on Gear *Comp Bow*
    Very High Normal Damager per Shot due to Highest Base Damage Weapons
    Moving Shot *Comp Bow / Heavy*
    Dismount *Heavy*
    8-10 Tile Range
    Quadruple Hit Spell if Lucky *Double Shot Yumi*
    Ranged Paralize *Regular Bow*

    ------------------

    And what offsets all that?

    It used to be, No Pots, Slower Swing Speed.

    However, with Balanced being extremely easy to imbue, and the Devs Adding even more SSI Items into the game, there is Nothing, that puts archery at a disadvantage to offset the Advantages.
     
  23. ACB1961

    ACB1961 Lore Keeper
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    I can't think of a reason the balanced property shouldn't be available for other two-handed weapons. It takes a huge % of the weapons 450-500% so it would force concessions to be made somewhere.

    The problem is when they start "re-balancing" a property they do a whole bunch of other things at the same time. It sort of like when the government forces someone to lower a price. No matter what they say they are going to do the price goes up.

    I think if you get them involved in changing this they will change a bunch of other things you aren't going to like.
     
  24. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    Bows were all originally "balanced" without the property assigned. There was a big archery nerf and we were no longer allowed to drink potions. It was an amazing day and it was upsetting. Then new properties were added and we could drink potions with a balanced property.

    Now your asking for another archery nerf! Good grief.

    -Lorax
     
  25. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    And what was it that caused the change so you can no longer chug with a an archery weapon in hand in the first place??? I wonder...
     
  26. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    1. Archery allowed potion usage - Too powerfull
    2. Archery weapons blocked potions - Other healing methods began to be utilized
    3. Balanced property once more allowed potion usage - Too powerfull(and easy to get with imbuing, most people run with Velocity/Spell/SSI/Balanced and it rocks)
    4. Health potions got timers - A mix of other healing methods and potions put Archery back not only on track with, but on top of all attack methods, this time mostly due to the advantages of ranged attacks though

    Giving the property to all 2Handed weapons would only mean the end of one-handed weapon templates. Coupled with Bushido and swing speed work-arounds it will be the last nail on the coffin of melee weapon-and-shield templates as well. This isn't the solution.

    Tying Alchemy to potions or to the Balanced property itself would cause more problems, templates will become cramped and people will most likely prefer not to have it on their skill set so this will be pointless.

    They removed HCI from shields without any serious explanation which was a bit wrong, in fact shields should also have their own special moves(for the matter 2Handed melee weapons should also offer something extra as they lack range and the Balanced property while being too slow).

    But really, what's holding them back from completely removing Balanced from 2 Handed weapons(obviously at this point I mean archery and possibly throwing weapons)?

    If they want an alternative so as to avoid indirectly acknowledging that they did a mistake, maybe they should reduce potion effectiveness for ranged weapons just like they did with Death Strike.
     
  27. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    Whiners. Whimps. Warlocks.

    -Lorax
     
  28. Posion
    Para
    Lightning strike
    Explode
    Flamestrike
    Mana vamp
    Efileds
    Posion fields
    Para fields

    Corpse skin
    Blood oath
    Strangle
    Evil Omen
    Pain Spike

    Spell Plague
    Hail storm
    Nether Cyclone
    Rising colossus

    Just to mention a few. So dont go there with what a Archer has compaired to a spell caster.


    You Must know very little about an archer in the current situation. Ps my main chars are:

    Parry mage
    Necro Mage
    Mystic Mage
    Fencer/Archer
    ABC Archer
    + 2 crafters

    I play them In that order now and the archers are totaly screwd due to lack of mana pull and now they have to contened with Overpowered Mystics. It wont be long before no one is playing an archer or a dexter as the template is way to cramped now. But i know alot of these people dont want to play a mage so guess what. They move on to another game thus UO dies a little more . But i guess thats what you want, Everyone who does not play a mage to leave the game. Well when you have no one left to play with you have no one to blaim but your self i guess.

    I love killing dexters/archer now. They are way to easy to kill. But again i am guessing thats what you want, an easy kill. No chalange to your game pllay. Get a life!
     
  29. Merion

    Merion Lore Master
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    Hardly anyone uses shield anymore. So give them an edge, bring HCI back, add balanced to shield or add a shield bash maneuver or such
     
  30. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Well to be fair i played with the professor for over 5 years now and 80% of that time he has played a mage of some kind. TBF he is there when you need xheall and he is there when you need the extra hit to finish off the target or he has a field cast at the right time to trap the target. What we are seeing as a guild now is that our archers are leaving UO due to all the nerfs being handed down to them. Some people don’t have the ping to play anything but an archer, so when their class gets another nerf and it makes their template unplayable or at the least compromised, and they are leaving the game and not coming back.

    This does not make the game better for anyone.

    Since you appear to be so clued up about the archer template maybe you would like to give us some insight on how to build a good archer template with a good suit. Don’t just mention 1 or 2 good parts, tell us how to build a whole suit and a working template which is not affected by the last archer nerf which hit their mana pull (JOAT nerf). Oh and don’t forget to add in 120 resist as a dexter now can not just run with pots and a trap box due to mystics damage being based on how high the targets resist is.

    If you are not able to show us a good template and a good suit i suggest you take a back seat and say nothing. For IMHO the Professor is just trying to stop players from getting up and going else where.
     
  31. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    What do I have to do, create a parody of a Shakira lyric, "Ten million ways to kill somebody?" Surely I don't have to teach everyone how to use imbuing, or what mods work to suit up an archer. Are there people putting night sight on all their items because they think it helps to have the mod on more than once? Is the concept of "moving shot" too difficult for most people to understand? Is ninjitsu frightening and new? Can archers not use mysticism? Fingers don't lie.

    That would be pretty cool. Mage PvP is a lot more fun because you can use the environment to your advantage. However, I don't think archers or dexxers will suddenly die out just because of one spell, spell plague. We'll see, though.

    You know ... if you have more than one main, you sort of have too many, haha.
     
  32. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    ... you mainly play a mage, find dexxers and archers easy to kill, yet you're afraid people will stop playing them. Wouldn't that mean you want easy kills? Strange rhetoric.
     
  33. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Exactly as I thought all mouth no substance. Take a back seat Kido.
     
  34. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    And where is your substance? All you wrote was a sob story for a friend and people who lag, then requested I teach you, him, and everyone else how to play this game because suddenly archers can't use trap boxes? LOL
     

  35.  
  36. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Put your money where your mouth is or take a back seat Kido, Show us how much you really don’t know. Hahah I like that No-Cluedo
     
  37. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    My opinion is mage PvP is more fun. Much more cause and effect. If you disagree, neither of us are wrong, because it's an opinion. However, since you said dexxers and archers are easier to kill, that would suggest you enjoy mage PvP more, because mages would challenge you whereas dexxers and archers would not. Therefore, you pose an odd statement when you suggest you are worried about dexxers and archers "leaving" the game, because if they remain, you will not be challenged, according to your claims.

    You guys must be 2 years old. Winker, what do you play? A tamer?

    120 arch/tact/chiv/med/mystic/resist cs proof 70s w/ 40 lmc, m+s +30 hld, +32 mana, 8 mr using 2 mr robe (optional), 45 dci w/ repeater di/lightning/hit lwr d/ fc/ dci (moving shot/spell plague spam w/ hl), 45 di from ring + tally, 4/6 cast using orny, pliable for pvm or pvp, just one example of a temp to run if you're good at stacking.
     
  38. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    @Merion
    HCI on shields is perfectly fine as the game is right now. So are special moves, given that they require the Parrying skill on top of Tactics.

    But allowing "Balanced" on every item(any ideal solution would be in the lines of an All-Or-Nothing situation) will create more issues, especially on shields. There are a couple of important reasons why this would be so.

    Just like the OP, I still haven't read any serious arguement on why "Balanced" should be kept in the game.
     
  39. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    another issue is most people that can play a melee dexer or a mage can play archers very competitively, however there are a lot of people who can play only archers and when they play anything else, they either couldn't fight well or they flat out suck.

    I understand archery is like the only thing that will work for certain people and I can tell you, they are definitely not a minority.

    Its cool imo dev made archery so retardedly easy to play and is one of the best for pvp and pvm, this did drew a lot of tram newbs to pvp. I don't blame them.
     
  40. Shelra

    Shelra Seasoned Veteran
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    It's obvious he has just helped with a template. Build it, and they will come. Be appreciative.
     
  41. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    I think it will be a lot better if it had focus as well since it determines mysticism spells potency, but it probably would work, I like to have focus but that's just me.
     
  42. Locryn Finck

    Locryn Finck Guest

    I was reading this thread and going along just fine, then I came upon this perspective from Moriarty fellow... I just can't hold back:

    If you are failing to pvp on an archer, you lack the right equipment and basic abilities. If you HAVE the proper equipment on a pure Archer/Bushido template: Congrats. You are in command of the most powerful and simple to play pvp template in UO.

    That is the nice way of saying it. The slightly meaner way is, "Everything you have said in this thread is so wrong, and so wildly inaccurate, I question your ability to play UO"
     
  43. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I was, or rather I should say Galen was I guess, an archer for a long time and thus have mostly stayed out of these debates, as part of me was cheering for the archers even though I have not been one for a long, long time and now find them extremely difficult t fight.

    There was a time, not so long ago, when archers were only viable in PvP if they were part of a group.

    However, I do have to say that every few months to a year, things go into the game that slowly makes the disadvantages of archery seem fewer and fewer and less and less. Even the nerfing of leaches and the Hit Lowers on bows doesn't seem to have done much, if anything, to stem the tide. Maybe it slowed things down. But Imbuing and the rise of SSI items have added to the potential to swing at max, and do really high damage, from a distance.

    And at the end of the day, that's the power of archery. Pole-arm level damage, from a distance, swung at max. The trimmings (balance, the hit lowers, etc.) are nice, but the heart of archery is damage, speed, and distance.

    Looking back over the history of UO, archery rarely seems to have been a balanced skill, especially in PvP.

    It's either been way under-powered, or way over-powered, and the happy medium appears to be extremely hard to strike. I remember, barely, the days of one-hit kills in PvP from Heavy Crossbows of Vanquishing. I remember making an archer only to find them nerfed literally the next day. (I didn't know to check UO.com often in those days.) I remember struggling through on Galen, as an archer, for years. I remember having to have Swordsmanship for PvP because Archery in pvP simply was not one bit viable unless you were part of a group. I remember how AoS, for awhile, made two-weapon skill templates impossible because one needed Chiv and Focus.

    I remember leaving, then coming back as a Swordsman, only to find that my once-beloved, once-underpowered archery was now suddenly the King of the Weapon Skills.

    I still found Archery over-rated in PvP, as once they were cornered they dropped fast. Too much stamina/dex increase at the expense of other things on their suit.

    But these days, you don't have to compromise anymore, and despite attempts at mild nerfs, Archery is definitely in a glory age again.

    I have to say I kind of regret that I missed the days of powerful Archery. I'll only ever remember Archery as the skill one would struggle through and be constantly laughed at. "If anyone tries to kill you with any kind of bow," the UO Powergamers once advised macers, "just laugh at him and kill him."

    That was so depressing because at that time I knew it didn't just apply to macers but to every other skill. Other weapon skills, magery, etc....Everything owned archery. It was like playing rock, paper, scissors, and a bug: Any of those things can kill a bug if used properly.

    But I struggled through, only to miss archery's looming glory days.

    Sorry for the rambling. I doubt there's really a good answer to archer's perennial balance issues. If there was they would've found it by now.

    So, play what you want to play, and when you encounter an archer in PvP, remember the 3 rules: Disarm, disarm, and disarm again.

    Once again, sorry for rambling.

    -Galen's player
     
  44. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Good post. There is never any answer to these dead-horse debates on a reportedly over-powered skills, just opinions and suggestions.

    I remember playing an archer ever since I joined UO. Played one before trammel through today. I remember how horrible archery was in PvP, you couldn't even move until your arrow reached the target. If you moved before it reached the target, you were guaranteed to miss, period. I am glad this little annoyance was fixed. But non-the-less I still PvPed with it, mostly PvM.

    IMO, the only thing that makes archery over-powered is the swing speed increase mod. Swing speed increase should never have been added to this game. It would be a lot easier to find a better way to balance weapon skills if swing speed increase was never introduced.
     
  45. Hey! No hating on the tamers you!
     
  46. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
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    sorry if this was already said but...

    bows are held with one hand all the time, only when you load and shoot them are you using two hands.
     
  47. red sky

    red sky Sage
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    Potions. I think it needs to go. I'd like someone to convince me otherwise.
     
  48. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    I also chant words of power and throw magical fireballs at my boss... oh wait...
     
  49. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Depends where you are, which class is easier to kill.

    In open area mage is whole lot easier to kill, since archer usually have ninjaform even when dismounted. They also heal while running so they are pretty much impossible to kill with a mage if they are running mounted speed and can't be blocked (Except if you have enough attackers to dump the archer before he gets far away enough).

    Then go to place where you can teleport on platforms etc etc. then mage is harder to kill, especially for dexers.

    When it comes to group fights, both sides having dexers and mages, atleast we usually take the mages first.

    1. When dismounted they don't go to ninjaform.
    2. There are very few skilled enough dexers to crossheal properly with bandies. Thou gotta say couple dexers from our guild have saved my ass couple times.
    3. When mage is on foot and getting disturped he/she can't do ****.

    Thou in groupfights archers can be real pain in the ass, especially with their mortal blows. Especially now that apples keep bugging sometimes, I mean wtf is it when I get "You gotta wait 125 seconds to use apple again" or something like that? But even without that bug, archers that know how to properly chain mortals and use specials at right times are really worth of their weight in gold in groupfights.

    But then again, if we are in lets say terrakeep, dexers can be easier to trap and dump that way. It's matter of environment which class gets to show its best side.

    But if we leave mages aside and compare archers vs melee.... Melee is pure crap compared to archers. Only real advantages are disarm and bleed. Since now with all SSI items you can shoot really fast with archery weapons too.
     
  50. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    @Red Sky
    I've dedicated quite a few lengthy text-bricks on something similar in a thread I started. It's about poisoning but in all fairness also about potions in general and has gotten quite interesting replies as well. Can't say I'd agree to remove potions completely, IMHO they merely need timers.. The lot of them. However this item property is a different story.