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Balancing pets PvM vs. PvP

Discussion in 'UO Tamer' started by yadiman, Oct 4, 2012.

  1. yadiman

    yadiman Journeyman
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    Player armor has improved greatly over the past years which has made most pet obsolete in PvM. Yet in PvP the added damage is still powerful.

    Q: Would you all accept a damage reduction in PvP for better pet survivability & damage on all pets?

    I certainly would. After the pet's are buffed, I would suggest that they do 75% of their current damage in pvp since they will have increased survivability, and also implement a damage threshold for spell interupts.
     
  2. yadiman

    yadiman Journeyman
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    I guess I'll just go sit in the corner since no one wants to talk to me ;x Shrug it seems simple to me that pets need more survivability to be viable in PvM and for diversity in pet selection and templates... But pets would easily be overpowered in PvP.
     
  3. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Heh, sorry busy RL weekend here lol.

    I think it's best to keep pets the same in Fel as they are in Tram. There are far too many cases of "this is the case here, but not here" in UO generally, it just gets confusing for new players. I don't want a player who usually plays Tram, coming to Fel and suddenly wondering why his pets aren't so good in PvP.

    The pets favoured today in PvP seem to be the most recent ones, those which are least in need of any boosts because they were created within the modern game. I can't say that for some of the SA ones because the skree really got a lousy deal ;) But generally speaking we could boost up all the lesser used pets in a balanced way and that wouldn't make them a problem in Fel. Because they're not hard to kill as they are now.

    The problem with pets in Fel just now is players logging out to keep their pets alive. It doesn't matter if you boost their HPs or lower them right now, if players can log out and save that pet, nothing will change. I think we need a change where players can't log out and save a pet mid battle, combined with a boost to the smaller and older ones so they have better survivability.

    What we could always do is scale a pet's damage and survivability up based on the real skill a player had in taming, lore and vet. IMHO if you spread yourself too thin on skills then you shouldn't be as effective as the trained specialist, and this would ensure that PvP hybrids didn't suddenly tear Fel to pieces with boosted pets. It would also draw some benefit for PvMers who use vet skill and don't just spam g. heals on pets. Logrus had a cool idea for pulse healing vet which would be useful for vetting near area effect critters. Combining those ideas and some decent pet updates would make for a good system that would require real skill investment to get the advantages.

    Wenchy
     
  4. What type of char do you play?

    My bard tamer owns and I constantly have old boring mage/tamers coming up to me and asking for advice on how I drop wild GD's in a minute or less, etc.
     
  5. yadiman

    yadiman Journeyman
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    I play a sampire usually, which may slight my perspective of the tamer, but even mystics fare better vs. most situations. And yes tamers are strong vs certain mobs as well. I also farmed a lot of Greater dragons with a bard tamer...The disco would usually land when the dragon was already at half health ;x IMO they should implement partial resists, but that's another issue.

    People seem to be hung up on whether greater dragons are capable (albeit very low dps), and forget about the other 20 pets that die the moment a stray mob looks at them. Then the painstaking task of rezzing the pet while keeping yourself alive...

    Shrug, I really wanna play my tamer. It's one of the most unique things about this game. I want to be able to use my rune beetle and reptalon and a slew of other pets vs. different types of situations without feeling like i'm gimping myself. *DIVERSITY* But it's a hard balance to maintain when you have to think about pvp as well (and I know most pvp'ers hate tamers) A rune beetle with more survivability or g. dragons and dread mares with more damage would definately be overpowered in pvp. (And I don't want to lug around even more slayers for my pet)

    And as far as making too many rules confusing for the new player... I think balance is more important. They already have different rules for melee, spells, healing, etc. in felucia. Besides, a lot of players dislike how the gaming industry is simplifing everything. I quit UO around '99 when they gave dread lords stat loss, and came back around 2007. It was definately a lot of studying to figure out what has changed, but planning a character is a great thing about this game.
     
  6. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I do think your experience as a sampire is going to carry over to what you expect with a tamer, I think the sampires have changed what a lot of folk expect from their tamers, just as GDs have. Mystics are also a relatively new skill and in UO's history, new skills have often had advantages over older ones. I personally don't mind having other professions stronger than mine, because I know I can train one up if I'm bothered (which I never have). My only current concern is that the devs seem to be building our game around these strong templates. Rather than nerfing the strongest so we have a wider range of templates with roughly the same power. I don't want more power, only a game where I can go to normal spawns and not have my butt handed to me by uber mongbats.

    Some tamers forget there are other weaker pets, but we don't all do that. I don't. My GDs are the pets that never get used, can't stand the things lol. Smaller/older pets certainly need some love, as do reptalons and newer pets like the skree. But these pets depend a lot more on the pet handling skills of the tamer: their own limited power leaves us little margin for error. I always tend to have 2 or more pets out at a time. If one dies, I vet rez it while I look after the surviving one. Then send that freshly rezzed pet in to support its friend while I heal both of them up. So unless I know I'm totally screwed, I don't move or stop pets fighting if one dies. I just have 1 more thing to focus on :) And there's lead vetting. Where you tell the pet to stop and follow you, then vet it while leading it slowly away from the monster. Stops the monster(s) melee damaging your pets and saves you having to recall out or deal with a dead pet.

    I don't think anything is really stopping you from playing and enjoying your tamer, except perhaps your own expectations of what you think you should be capable of. I agree some pets need love but they certainly aren't at a level where I don't feel like playing with them. Many tamers got all GD obsessed when they arrived, so I guess the devs figured all tamers just used 1 pet and left well alone.

    Balance is important for Tram as much as in Fel. An overpowered tamer can make a nuisance of themselves anywhere. You don't need to be fighting one in Fel. In Tram players have to try sharing resources and spawns at times. If one template can wipe the floor with all the others, they're a problem in that situation.

    Rune beetles, dreads and greaters have all been nerfed to be ok for Fel. I really don't think any of them should be boosted up significantly for any facet. I'd rather see much older and lesser used pets given attention first.

    At the same time, make real skill required for full pet damage/survivability and you instantly pull back PvP tamers - committing to 3 skills in a template just for the pets leaves less room for other skills. That brings some of the PvP templates down a few notches.

    I love balance too. And complexity, especially in taming - something I've been hoping we'd see with real skill actually counting more than item-boosted skill, or some enhancements to skills like vet. But changing pets so they don't have so much power in Fel isn't adding any interesting depth and intelligence to the game. It's simply reining back tamers in Fel and giving us another thing to remember. Also, it's going to deter tamers from visiting Fel. Besides, Fel players need to just deal with tamers being part of their game too. I don't want tamers overpowered in PvP, but I don't plan on rolling over and becoming an easy target either.

    Wenchy
     
  7. yadiman

    yadiman Journeyman
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    Thank you for your detailed response. I agree with most of your points, and my objective is not to simply make tamers "roll over and die" :) I just thought that it might not be so easy for the devs to add complexity and balance for both facets at the same time, but if they can then great.

    For me, in pvp, I've really had no motivation to improve since I've been back. But I have managed to kill a few people on a dread warhorse dexer heh. The ultimate noob spec. I'm not a bad pvper either (in other games like darkfall, etc.) But besides my noobness, I'm not into pvp now because I'm nostagic for old UO where no one ran away on dial-up, people were dead before they could call their guildmates, and no spell interrupts either ;p Dread warhorse dexers already seem overpowered in those regards... But most pets are not OP, and I do not wish to over-nerf tamers in pvp.

    I also don't want tamers to be overpowered in PvM and become the template of choice. I like the idea for real skill to boost your pets survivability/damage. And pulse healing may be nice, but we really need a way to heal from a distance. Many situations prevent one from standing right next to your pet (or even moving slowly with your pet)... Maybe having 100+ vet on a character could increase the amount healed to pets with magery and mystic spells?

    Another desire of mine is for a less powerful pet that we don't have to worry about at all. Before it dies, it could bury into the ground (or fly off) and heal up before re-emerging. People who want to play a template without vet could choose this type of pet.
     
  8. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    Running and ganking do appear to be the way of PvP now unfortunately.
     
  9. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Aye, sadly PvP has changed a lot and not all the changes have been good ones.

    Really need a pet with a tentacle attack to trip the gits up :D

    Or bring back teleporting pets *evil grin*

    Wenchy
     
  10. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    i think the dev's need to provide more options for pets in pvp. the most sought after pet in pvp is the dreadmare by means of its slayer invulnerability. nothing else comes close. a guildie of mine had his cu out the other nite and a curse and two fs with a fey book basically redlines or kills the pet. greaters fare no better with a cold damage yumi slayer or hail storms with same.

    there should be some more variety of pets that a player can use without slayer vulnerability. tweaking the reptalon or making the raptor rideable are two pets that would be most desirable.

    as to the running and ganking comment. players will just adapt to the rules provided by them from the developers. if you can somehow take away the advantage of speed in pvp you would probably find much better fights and less ganking as a result.
     
  11. yadiman

    yadiman Journeyman
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    Well increasing pet's survivability across the board would allow more diversity, but they would have to nerf their damage output in pvp.

    And yes, maybe pets could be slayer-proof for balance issues.
     
    #11 yadiman, Oct 23, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  12. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    I'd like to see some more symbiosis with Pets and combat. One of the biggest issues I have with pets ( summons included) is the fire and forget mechanic. Especially in PvP where the damage players are able to dish out, and take is so limited, a pet capable of dishing out and taking damage on par with players is a sticky situation. I think it would be interesting to have pets with abilities that synthesize well with different playstyles of the owner.
    For example, maybe a wisp like pet which does low damage, but increases the tamers damage. Or a low damage dealing pet which is kind of tanky but will occasionally shield its owner from damage.
    I like the Cu' mechanic of them healing their owners and think that is something to build on.

    Another example would be to have a pet that does high damage, but when its damage also causes the owner to take more damage while its in the higher damage state.
     
  13. kRUXCg7

    kRUXCg7 Sage

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    I am a bit in a hurry and have not analyzed 100% of what you just said, but, yes, I tend to be optimistic. I like your plans, thank you for your support. It's exactly what I am looking for.
    ---
    Edit: I haven't found it yet on official EA store. Do I have to go to Japan, again? Can I pay with € or only US $ / Japanese Yen?

    Edit 2: Does it come in different colors and also in some rare ones?

    Edit 3:
    I don't have to tell anyone that it is all meant in good fun, do I.
     
    #13 kRUXCg7, Oct 25, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  14. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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  15. yadiman

    yadiman Journeyman
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    I'm sure it's another crazy idea that will get flamed, but i would like a mode where i ride my pet and command his abilities. The tamer and pet would be considered 1 target and initially have the same hp/stats as the player, but with augmentation from the pet. Like you were saying, some pets would provide an increase in survivablity with lower damage output, and vice versa. Pets with magery could use mage skills. Pets like greater dragons could force walk. Pets like CUs, hiryus, etc. would obviously use melee skills / bandages. I'm not sure how to factor in the skills of the player.

    Edit: to balance PvP and PvM.... Take a Greater dragon as an example. Augmentation from the pet would increase your health by a percentage, but will also increase the damage you receive in pvp by that same percentage. So a greater dragon with 900 hp would increase a players health by 300% and pvp damage taken by 300%. Leech abilities will be calculated before the damage multiplier. The dragon's resists would also slightly modify your resists to somewhat equal 73 75 65 67 70. Most pets don't have resists like G.dragons tho so the math would have to be worked out. Could also recieve a buff from vet since you still wouldn't be as survivable as a normal greater dragon.
     
    #15 yadiman, Oct 25, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012