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Balancing Tamer's in PvP

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Llewen, Nov 21, 2010.

  1. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I play a pvp tamer, and I believe tamers are a legitimate pvp template. Playing a tamer in pvp well is challenging and takes skill as does any other template in pvp. With that out of the way I do think there is a problem with some of the common pvp tamer builds, based on my own experiences I would say they could use a tap with the nerf bat. So what I am proposing is a carrot and stick approach.

    The real problem is that pvp tamers are able to have virtually the full benefits of two templates, the tamer template, and whatever the other half of the template is. I see this as a problem specifically with archer tamers and with dexxer tamers. Both of those templates if played skillfully can be overpowering. I have less experience with mystic tamers, but my guess is they could also be very strong, although that should be less of an issue after publish 69.

    To rectify this situation I propose a number of changes - as I said, a carrot and stick approach.

    1. Carrot: Fix the wonky flagging issue with pets in factions. Right now they will attack faction mates only if they are in guard mode and take damage. This means they will attack if they are damaged by same faction fields, but they won't defend their owners when they are attacked, or respond to kill commands. In my opinion this should be reversed. They should not attack if they or their owner are damaged by same faction fields or aoe's, but they should respond normally in every other way to guard and kill commands. Right now faction tamers are vulnerable to being griefed by rogue faction mates.

    2. Carrot and Stick: All attempts to resurrect a dead pet should be based on the vet and lore skill of the tamer at the time the pet dies. If your vet or lore changes when you have a dead pet you should get a nag telling you that any attempts to resurrect your dead pet will be based on your skills at the time the pet died. This is to prevent players from using soul stones to get around the following changes I am proposing.

    3. Carrot: If you resurrect your own pet your pet suffers no skill loss.

    4. Stick: If someone else resurrects your pet your pet suffers a full point (1.0) of skill loss. If your pet is resurrected by an npc vet your pet suffers two full points (2.0) of skill loss.

    The purpose of this is to encourage pvp tamers to carry all of the tamer skills and for there to be serious drawbacks to not doing so. If 1.0 and 2.0 aren't enough, make them 2.0 and 4.0, or even 5.0 and 10.0, whatever it takes. The point is to make it a very serious choice to choose not to run with vet on a tamer template.
     
  2. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    When a combat flagged pet's owner logs out. The pet should NOT be stabled if the tamer is dead.
     
  3. Chardonnay

    Chardonnay Visitor

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    ALSO, a tamer should not be able to log out and have a pet instantly warp to him...what's a bag of summoning good for again?
     
  4. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Not unless they get rid of skill loss on pet death and fix it so that pets never go wild. As I've said many times before, there is no other template that requires any form of retraining after a death, or the risk that a valuable item might be permanently lost (outside of insurance and bless bug issues).

    Actually balls of summoning are extremely useful as they are now. You clearly don't play a "real" tamer, pvp or otherwise, if you don't know this. I think mechanically pets need to log back on with their owner. I don't see any way around this.

    And neither of these ideas really address the op, they are ideas meant to punish tamers for being tamers, suggested by tamer haters, and as such they are unfair, and just generally all round bad ideas.
     
  5. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    Lol at chard..

    Im pretty sure hes saying that, Because balls of summoning function in exactly that way, logout shouldnt allow a pet to return to its owner in the same fassion. (You basically repeated him by not understanding his sarcasm, [Or I'm an Idiot, We'll see])
     
  6. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    Mmm.. Pumpkin Pie.



    :bdh:
     
  7. canary

    canary Guest

    Er... I don't see a lot in here that balances pet PvP.

    I would propose a fourth skill to have a tamer utilize, let's say Animal Empathy. Maybe it would, for every 10 points, add 1% to creature stats. You'd also need it to properly control pets, as it would work beside lore and taming. At GM you'd have a stronger creature by 10%, but you'd essentially have to invest 100 (or more) skill points to both properly control your pet and get the bonuses.
     
  8. Chardonnay

    Chardonnay Visitor

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    I would argue with you but considering you're already a tamer you have no respect as it is...figure it out...
     
  9. Chardonnay

    Chardonnay Visitor

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    Ya, that's what we need even stronger pets...how about we drop pets strength by 33% now and if the tamers want PvP Gods to walk next to them make them spend 120 more...
     
  10. canary

    canary Guest

    Well that would be fine, too. Perhaps in pvp they'd only do 1/2 damage to players? If you invest in the skill it would start to counter some of that.

    I dunno. I just think that, for 300 skill points, that is a lot of firepower at their disposal (yes, I play a tamer and think this, btw). Especially since the can tack on an entire other template, where other skill sets (ninja, for example) require so many invested points its not even funny.
     
  11. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    Heres something I posted elsewhere, since we're talking about tamers and all.


    (Since its being changed, and Honestly this temp is very boring)

    Dismount Myst Resist Dreadmare Tamer.

    120 Myst
    120 Focus
    110 Tame
    115 Lore
    90 Wrestle (120)
    90 Resist (120)
    70 Tactics

    + 60 Skill | 30 on each Jewel | 15 Mace/Resist
    2/5 Casting
    Using a Wand for a Weapon (Wand is the only 70 Tactics Dismount)

    (However, as i Said, with Dismount, Myst and Tamer, This template is pretty boring to play)


    -Lol-
     
  12. Shanna

    Shanna Guest

    I agree with this point exactly. Let's not forget that a nerf to aid non-taming pvpers would harm pvmers as well. And you can't just keep it to Fel only because there is pvm in Fel as well. As a pvmer, having a pet follow you through a dungeon is difficult so a Stay command and log once you get to your destination is a common and effective way of use.
     
  13. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    Its been said Three times now that a Pet Ball Functions in Exactly the same way, except in Death. (Balanced)
     
  14. Chardonnay

    Chardonnay Visitor

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    Comical...gotta love this new breed of UO players...
     
  15. Shanna

    Shanna Guest

    Oh lordy please, as if working up taming, lore, and vet doesn't take long enough as it is... Let me guess, you believe Animal Empathy should go up 0.1 a day as well?
     
  16. Shanna

    Shanna Guest

    Not in Ish so what's the point... As I said, it's effective. But I understand I should have a Fel pack and a Tram pack on my tamer now too.
     
  17. canary

    canary Guest

    You must have missed the part I say: I play a tamer.

    And you know, with everything out nowadays, reaching a decent skill level isnt as hard as it was say, even 3-5 years ago.

    What are your suggestions to balance taming pvp?
     
  18. Chardonnay

    Chardonnay Visitor

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    Ya, because getting animal lore and vet up is so hard...rolleyes:

    How long you been playing UO? Because it shows...
     
  19. Babble

    Babble Guest

    PvP is overrated.. balance too
    :p
     
  20. Shanna

    Shanna Guest

    Ridding the ability to create mount/dismount macro from UO Assist would be a start.
    I agree with the OP that vet and lore should be mandatory upon death of a pet in order to rez as to keep tamers from stoning off vet to make their template.
    Nerfing skill-point jewelry in Fel is a option as well. (But if I'm wrong about how hard it is to build up taming then that shouldn't be a problem for any of you.)
     
  21. Shanna

    Shanna Guest

    Oh yeah, I forgot I'm suppose to insult your intelligence and belittle your endless hours of effort in UO.

    Could you be more rude? I don't think you've called me a "poo poo head" yet?
     
  22. Chardonnay

    Chardonnay Visitor

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    If the truth hurts your feelings then you should not need to be talking with the grown adults...
     
  23. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    This makes me laugh. There's always a tamer hater that says something like this. "All kill, no skill, but ya, I play a tamer too." "Nerf taming to the point where all it's useful for is rp, but I play a tamer too." "Better yet, remove taming from the game entirely, but I play a tamer too."

    If any of you actually played a tamer that knew anything about taming, you would understand how important training is to the effectiveness of a pet, and how huge a change the change I have suggested would be. There is a huge difference between having a pet on you with skills in, for example, the 80's, and skills that are maxxed out across the board.
     
  24. Shanna

    Shanna Guest

    No, child, we grown adults don't insult each other over opinions of a game.
     
  25. Chardonnay

    Chardonnay Visitor

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    Here child, here's what i tell my son when his feelings get hurt from other children...

    "Sticks and stones may hurt my bones but names will never hurt me"

    Maybe you was never told this, it will help you get thru life now without crying over what some one says over a forum about a game...

    All better now?
     
  26. canary

    canary Guest

    double post, bleh
     
  27. canary

    canary Guest

    Uhm, ya. I think I realize that training is important. I actually fight with unis and bouras over things like dragons and greaters, as I enjoy the challenge it presents and it fits with my characters style. So I'm fairly familiar with the concept of training, as you can't do much on either very well untrained. And yes even in PvP I use these creatures, as others who play on my shard and know me on here can attest to.

    Thanks for making assumptions about me, however. Too bad you are wrong, as most of your posts convey.
     
  28. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    If you folks can not discuss this politely and with respect for others and I have to stop fishing to clean this up... Heads are going to roll. *stares*
     
  29. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Well then you can appreciate that what I am suggesting increases the skills required to be an effective pvp tamer from 200ish to 300ish, which is essentially the same thing you are suggesting, only your suggestion will require many pvm tamers to invest 400ish points in taming, as tamers whose primary focus is pvm are more likely to have vet than pvp tamers.
     
  30. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Of course none of his posts in fact refuted what you said, cept maybe saying it wouldn't balance in pvp? Which...I somewhat agree that it would not "balance" it would make it a bit more annoying when your pets die, but training them back up is not so difficult that it makes me care.

    My pvp tamer template is as follows.
    Lore - 107
    Taming - 107
    Magery - 105
    Eval - 100
    Wrestling -120
    Parry - 120
    Ninja - 85

    That's modified skill so don't sweat that its more than 720.

    Just figured I would provide information on my character since you don't believe actual tamers can believe they hold to much power in pvp. This is not even as bad as other tamer templates.

    Edit: Started posting before the post above me....and I agree with you that needing 400 skills to control is to much, although his other idea of having pets do 1/2 damage in pvp unless you have this other skill might be viable? Not enough time to think about it though. Of course again I don't mind losing skill if someone else resses my pet. Just means I have to try harder to not let them die :)
     
  31. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Having pets do half damage in pvp would effectively remove pets from pvp, which is what most tamer haters want (actually most tamer haters want pets removed from the game period), which is why I called you a tamer hater. I play a faction pvp tamer and I know that halving the damage pets do in pvp would make them pretty much useless, even with an increase in strength in other ways.

    Every template is a combination of templates, there is no such thing as a "pure" template. My suggestion is an attempt to encourage a greater investment in the tamer skill set by pvp tamers. In a way you are suggesting the same kind of thing, but if you half pvp damage, and then include your suggestion, you end up making pets useless in pvp, in my opinion overpowered in pvm. I just don't see it as a good solution.

    My suggestion doesn't force tamers everywhere to rework their entire template, as yours does. It does encourage pvp tamers to invest in the vet skill and I think in the process offers some balance for those dexxer and archer pvp tamer templates.
     
  32. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Well, the point of the op is to either force pvp'rs to care, or have them fighting with less effective pets. So if 1.0 doesn't do it, make it 2.0 or 5.0 even (getting some other character to rez the pet). I don't know about anyone else, but it can take up to an hour to retrain that last .1 in magery, and I use the absolute fastest way to retrain magery. With my suggestion the typical present day tamer would soon be fielding pets with significantly lower magery, and other skills, than they have today, and that would make a noticeable difference.
     
  33. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    I should just toss another edit in my last post, but I am leaning more to thinking the addition of another skill would force more templates to be modified to use 300 skill points instead of 200 (such as mine) where as Llewens would not force it. I am not sure I would agree with such a change, to heal my pets currently I have to use magery. Every other template type has a form of healing so that is mine. I am not sure how every other template type has to invest more points than I do just to be viable....ninja? ninja is not something you augment it is something you add to an exist template type, Stealth Characters were around before ninja, ninja just gave that type of a character more meaningful ways to do things. I do not disagree that tamers have an excessive ability for power, I just do not feel as if other templates "need" more than a tamer does.
     
  34. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Well I can deal with slightly lower magery, which is the only skill that takes time to train. But that "hour" to get the last .1 is not to big a deal unless you are so obsessed that you have to spend every minute in game pvping with your tamer.... I am a fairly broad player, while I do not tend to do any pvming with my tamer I do enjoy doing some things other than pvping, and I have 2 accounts so can always train that magery while doing other things (hopefully remembering about that character so it doesn't die or time out). But if you made it 5 points each time I might care...lol, that's quite a bit specially in magery.
     
  35. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Got a better idea. Since some of you "l33t" pvpers need to remember that changes do not only affect pvp tamers but pvm tamers as well, how about make it so tamed pets just can't attack players, remove it completely from pvp. Because there is just no good way to nerf it for pvp and pvm fairly. Guess then would have to make it so players then can also not attack the pets either. If the tamer dies, pet goes away until tamer is back.

    And good lord, we don't need another skill to add for tamers. I don't care at all if it was proposed by another tamer whatsoever, it doesn't make the idea any better, lol.
     
  36. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Inquisitor
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    For me the fix is simple and there is no need to make yet another skill people would have raise. Just make vet be required in order to have a pet, ie you would need the same amount of vet as you would taming and lore to control your pet. Also make the NPC's only rez low end mounts. All higher end pets should require ONLY the owner being able to rez them, after all the pet is only bonded to ONE person, and that should be the only one able to bring it back to life. I also agree pets are overpowered in PvP but think 3/4 damage would suffice instead of the mentioned 1/2 damage.
     
  37. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I play a pvp tamer. I play a pvp tamer the way I do because my template is a fun and challenging way to pvp. I love pvp, and at this point it is my main reason for playing UO. Taming templates in pvp are as valid as any other pvp template. I don't know about anyone else but if tamers are removed from pvp in UO EA will instantly lose both of my subscriptions.
     
  38. Chardonnay

    Chardonnay Visitor

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    :sad2:
    I personally think tamers should have to pay double subscriptions fees since EA is PvP'ing for you anyways...
     
  39. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I prefer my idea, not simply because I was the one suggested but because I like changes that offer choices and encourage diversity. The change you suggest limits choices and diversity. Every tamer template would have to have vet under your suggestion. Under my suggestion you would still be able to have a tamer without vet, but there would be a clear choice to be made and costs and benefits to be weighed.
     
  40. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Have to agree somewhat with Llewen. His basic idea's do not really affect pvm tamers at all. I do not know a single pvm tamer that does not have vet on their template. Or to make his proposal even more effective in PVP only, how about when another player or player pet kills your pet everything there is affected.

    Also the "pet ball" debate, could be the same as I mentioned above, when the pet flags to another player, or player flags to another player or if either is flagged by another player then logging out and in does nothing. And are pet balls not insurable? not being usable in ilsh seems like a silly debate, not much there to worry about but still my proposal of making everything based on flagging works just fine as every character and pet has a "flagged" stat stuck to them.
     
  41. canary

    canary Guest

    Yeah, just some sort of damage cap. Heck, even SDI is capped at 15% in PvP, so why not pet damage?

    The thoughts I originally tossed out took all of 2 minutes to think of. The idea of this thread is to toss out ideas and then come to something that is more agreeable for ALL parties.
     
  42. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Pets without owners to control them do one thing very well, die. Effectively using a pet in pvp takes skill and practice, just as any other template or weapon choice does. Is it different? Of course. Does it take less skill? It takes less skill to do it badly, yes, but to be a truly effective pvp tamer you have to know what you are doing, and be good at it.

    The only truly op pvp tamer templates that I've seen are those hybrid dexxer and archer templates (again I have less experience with mystic tamers so I can't comment on them and we'll have to see what happens after publish 69). My suggestion is an attempt to address issues with those templates, without hurting other legitimate pvp tamer templates that are not overpowered, or affecting the majority of pvm tamers in any way either, as all of the pvm tamers that I am aware of do have the vet skill.

    Exactly, I think we were posting at roughly the same time.
     
  43. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    No, Llewen's ideas in the first post do not really affect PvM taming much, but I am not specifically referring to Llewen's proposed changes but to the general mass of ideas to "balance" taming for PvP. Many people do believe it is overpowered and in a sense I will agree. Problem is, it isn't really overpowered at all for PvM. But the ideas here offered by the OP do not in any way balance it for PvP. All they will do is highly encourage tamers to get vet and I really don't think there are that many tamers for PvP who don't have vet.
     
  44. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I thought you were meant to attack the opposing factions, not each other :p Sorry, I'm not being a smart alec, that just made me laugh thinking how factions has changed since I was a faction tamer. When I started out in factions, PvMers in my faction had the sense to see the benefit of having a tamer on their side and actually kept us alive. I don't think it's flagging that's wrong here, I think you either need to join a PvP guild who'll support you or buy said faction buddies a copy of "Teamwork for Dummies". I see what you're saying and why, but I think the system should encourage players to work together in a faction rather than enabling tamers to attack tamer haters. I don't want to attack players on the same faction, in a fast moving battle it's actually helpful if you can't mistakenly target them. So there's two sides to what you suggest.

    Ok, no worries with this bit, there should be a penalty if you haven't got the skills to look after your pets. I'd say go further with a more simple check I've suggested before - bonding a high end fighting pet needs real vet and lore skill at the time and to maintain the bond.

    No. Just no. Much as I don't run gimpy hybrid anythings, it's obvious to me that taking the skill penalty out means the tamer can be as irresponsible as they want anywhere with zero consequence in how they mistreat their pets. Or the unsuspecting players around them. Pets become meatshield yo-yos, you can just throw them into any old mess and if they die, so what? Rez em up, off they go again. No. No matter how much skill you have as a tamer, or what the circumstances, I'll never support that suggestion. Especially in PvP. And as you know, I want the log out to save a pet thing nuked too.

    Someone else resurrecting your pet should only result in a penalty if you don't have the skill to do so yourself. If you have the skill and someone else is just helping you out after a rez, that shouldn't receive a penalty. I'd rather that the higher end pets just couldn't be resurrected by NPC, just because it might be an easier system to understand and code in.

    I think it would also curb things if real skill was required for control, or at least for bonding pets alongside the vet skill. Or just lore + vet is required before a pet bonds. That would be a simple solution even if it did result in many toys flying out of prams.

    Wenchy
     
  45. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Well, I know of a decent amount with out vet and with. But Like I said, it can be limited to "flagging" since every player controlled mobile has a flagged by stat. And every player controlled mobile has a different code than npc mobiles So this "could" be balanced We just need to come up with idea's that work, let others worry about how to code it.
     
  46. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, I'm just letting it stand as it is. We've butted heads over a few of those points before and there's no need to do it again. What I will say however in response to the above is the current situation is absolutely the worst of both worlds. Not only can tamers not defend themselves against rogue faction mates, but their pets will still attack faction mates if they inadvertently get caught in an unguilded field or aoe. The current situation is absolutely the worst of all the possible solutions and I'd hate to think that it is actually working as intended. If it is, someone needs to give their head a shake.
     
  47. I Play UO

    I Play UO Visitor

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    This is exactly what needs to happen with tamers. No matter what way you try to spin or delude it, fighting a tamer is one part PvP and one part PvM. Fighting the tamer themselves is PvP, fighting their pet is PvM. The PvM aspect is not PvP, and since tamers use pets this means that tamers are not PvP either.
     
  48. Elden of Baja

    Elden of Baja Journeyman
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    I'm pretty sure I've already stated my opinion on lamers... *Tamers*, but I'll back it up again.


    1. MAKE THE PLAYERS ACTUALLY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING - To have a pet still obey your commands you should have to be on screen. So, none of this dragon chasing someone for 10 screens without the owner being anywhere in sight. That's just Silly.
    2. If you have 5 Followers and one of them isn't a mount you happen to be on, then there is no reason you should be running at mount speed. Presently 95% of tamers are all about just saying all Kill, and then going animal form, or flying around, and doing nothing but surviving while they *Pray* Their pet gets a kill. I'm sorry if that one Hugely Affects PvM'ers, but as far as i'm concerned PvM is Easier than a 4 piece Jigsaw Puzzle.
    3. After Death Players cannot Summon their pet until they have been Resurrected. You brought the Pets out to Play, you FAILED, now you need to suffer the consequences. Consider it PET insurance.
    4. Remove the 35 Damage Cap from armor ignores to Pets. Nothing like Armore Ignoring a greater dragon with your special made comp bow and it only does 35 damage when it should do 150++
     
  49. Korik Bloodguard

    Korik Bloodguard Lore Keeper
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    Argh, ****ing fix Stratics already!!!!!! Losing posts is a pain in the ass.

    To sum up my really nice post: Llewen has the right idea here when considering what should be done for tamers to bring about a better experience for everyone involved. An approach which doesn't limit possibility but instead provides options is best. Skill is one way of fixing both template stuffing and providing for those who want to have the choice with greater risk.

    Maybe another solution could be pets losing more skill points if they're killed by other players, this would save PvM tamers from any kind of nerf which PvP has necessitated. This would add an extra level of risk to tamers over and above consumables and insurance, but one which I think a lot of people would argue is acceptable. It would also help to separate out those who are not really dedicated to it, as each pet death would mean more training.

    Thumbs up!
     
  50. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    ok...address them by number.

    1. Nothing to wrong with this except that monster AI already exists with out tamers so really the AI is always the same.

    2.No, not "95%" I do not even think that number is close to accurate let alone worth refuting. Personally I only see one reason to be in animal form, pet dies. Obviously when the pet dies I no longer have a mount. Although I do not always need to run away when the pet dies, as I have other means of defending myself.

    3. Nothing against this point, think I pointed out that the log out and in method should not work for flagged players or pets.

    4. Not sure if 150++ is accurate, but I will agree to this when moving shot is more in line with real world i.e. you should have a major decrease in your ability to land a hit, not hit every time.

    Only 1 of your "points" seems to be off, the rest simply need to be looked at and tweaked as preferred.