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Bard changes are horrible

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Beastmaster, May 19, 2010.

  1. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Regardless of your skill levels in the 3 bardic skills you can only use the mastery from one of the 3 at a time. You must do the silly quest each time you want to switch mastery. The quests are very easy, but quite ridiculous that you master the songs and have to re-master them each time you want to use a different set.

    ie. If you do the mastery quest for the peacemaking songs and decide you want to use the discordance songs which come in the same song book you have to do the discordance quest. So far, so good. But wait, now you can no longer use the peacemaking songs unless you redo that quest at which point you can no longer do the discordance songs, DOH!

    And a footnote to this:

    For the provocation quest you must use 5 different rabbits and 5 different healers. This is not explained in the quest.
     
  2. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Note to Devs:

    How about skill wait timer reductions we ASKED for?
     
  3. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    And as mentioned in the other thread:

    MOBs killed via discordance don't have corpses.
     
  4. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    Uh...

    You're complaining because you can't learn all three masteries and keep them learned at the same time?

    This is what's called "Making a choice." Choose your mastery... jack of all trades is the master of none.
     
  5. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    I like the fact that the introduction of masteries only allow you to be a "master" of one of them at any time. Being able to master 3 would be a poor method.
     
  6. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Your problem is that you can only master 1/3 at a time? I think it's fair to have to pick what kind of mastery you want.
     
  7. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Why?
    Why did bards need to be nerfed
     
  8. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Well you 3 think about what you are saying, then think about what real bards have been requesting for years. We got hit with a teaser a few weeks ago and we get this. We get 2 songs added to our 480 skill points at any given time. And the skill timers remained untouched. It's obvious neither of you are full fledged bards, or if you have one you rarely use it.
     
  9. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I guess you can call a simple addition of mastery that only enhances what you could do to begin with a nerf. A positive nerf at least.

    Nothing at all changes with barding skills functionality if you don't pick a mastery.
     
  10. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    - I'm thinking of a song that says 3 is the magic number.
    I'm also thinking of factions pvp.
     
  11. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Question for OP:

    Have you tested how strong the mastery skills work in PvM/PvP yet? Or did you only do the quests?
     
  12. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    Do you know what a nerf is?
     
  13. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Yeah, they didn't work worth a damn. I used 1 song then I had to go play with 5 creatures before I could use another. Oh and get permission from an NPC first and his blessing afterwards.

    6 songs in 1 songbook should be usable without having to repeat a stupid little quest.
     
  14. AirmidCecht

    AirmidCecht twitch.tv/airmid
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    Uh, I thought these were bard enhancements not changes? No one is losing skills, simply able to enhance their skills and pick one mastery to do it. I can't imagine a full bard with all three songs flailing their banjo about. They'd be just a pickn and a grinn'n fo sho *winks*
     
  15. Warsong of LS

    Warsong of LS Seasoned Veteran
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    Maybe team up with a couple other bards. With each of you taking a different mastery? Putting Multi-player cooperation back into the game?

    Or maybe stone off 2 of the skills and retool your character?
     
  16. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    I suddenly feel like Hee-Haw is the next UO expansion.

    *grins*
     
  17. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Based on the reaction I'm getting so far, I sincerely hope the corpse bug goes live and that despair works exactly the same in PvP. Then we can watch the boards flood with PvPing whiners.
     
  18. BardMal

    BardMal Guest

    Who cares.

    I made 12 tamers to replace my bard a long time ago. I did bother to put the 120 music provoke on one tamer, rebuilt music and entice (disco) and put that on another tamer. I have peace on a soul stone.

    Barding has been turned into a worthless skill set completely, unless you count how it benefits archers.

    My discord helps archers get Doom arties, not my disco/tamer, my provoke helps archers stand still and get all the damage points so that my provoke/tamer sees only blue corpses that only the archers can loot.

    Now you are adding more benefits to other players for my skill point investments on my templates.

    Are you going to add the "Mohawk grenade" next?

    Thank you for the ability to make memorials. Now we can mark not only the passing of our friends who are gone, but also the templates that have been destroyed.

    For all the coming flames, save it, I only came here because my wife asked what I thought of the "bard changes"; I stopped reading UHall a few years back and have enjoyed mental health ever since. I won't be back in this forum for another year if I can help it, longer I hope.
     
  19. maroite

    maroite Guest

    I do agree with you but...

    A more simplistic method, as some bards do 3x Legendary in Provo/Disco/Peace, would allow them to do all the quests and allow them to use all the skills BUT...

    Here is the catcher; You can only use one skill at a time. AKA They don't stack. Want the Provo buffs? Sorry, it cancels the Disco debuffs, want the peace buffs? It cancels the Provo buff.

    This would allow pure bards to have more options for their time invested, but balance it so that you can't buff with Provo/Peace AND debuff with disco all at the same time. You still have to make a choice.

    Wait, you're complaining because you made the choice to replace your bards, and now that bards got love and have some unique abilities that benefit people who invested and stuck with their bards for however long, you are claiming it some how belittles you meager skill point investment?

    haha That's amusing.

    Is it only Despair that makes corpses disappear? Or do both disco abilities do it? Also, can you still use disco in the original way and then stack the mastery abilities on top of it?
     
  20. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Maybe they need to differentiate between longbows, shortbows, and crossbows. In order to be the master of one you have to go shoot 5 pigs from the correct distance. What? Switch bows you say? Well darn the crossbow uses bolts instead of arrows. You better go back and practice on pigs from close range, then you can use that crossbow like a master.
     
  21. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Ok , I jsut read over the changes and it seem to give bards some ability in PvP. Do these abilities help PvM parties as well?
     
  22. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Or maybe more analogous, you have 120 swords and 120 archery, but you can only use the weapons specials for the one you chose your mastery in.
     
  23. Beastmaster is absoloutely right. Having to retake an entitelment quest everytime you cast a different spell is riddiculous, if you have more than 1 bard skill then you are master in it. How would you like it if everytime you cast Mage spells you had to retake the weaving quest.

    The quests are fairly patronising, the minimum skill for these new spells is 90, yet the quests are Peace Mongbats, Discord Goats, Provoke Rabbits on Healers. If this is what the devs think bards at 90 skill are doing then it sure explains why its taken 8 years for us to get anything.
     
  24. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    Hey, if those weapon specials gave me a better bonus, you better believe I'd specialize.

    That's the idea of a specialization or mastery... you make a choice.

    I see nothing wrong with this at all.
     
  25. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    exactly, people have complained that bards never get anything, so they give bards some enhancements and people dont like it ! I just dont get it...
    I dont play in groups but maybe a couple times a year so my bard did not really gain much, but i am still happy we have more options...
     
  26. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    I'm all for crying about things but sometimes even the great Uhall amazes me.

    Having a mastery to choose is a good game mechanic. Having everything is garbage.

    FYI - This is an addition. Not a nerf. Check out the urban dictionary if necessary.(hopefully the real(game) definition of nerf is there)

    Pure bards didn't really need any more power. If your pure bard isn't powerful enough for you then you don't know how to play it. Bards are, have, and most likely always will be one of the most powerful professions in the game.
     
  27. If we've got to do this quest everytime we change mastery then whats the point of putting all the spells in one book and giving us a new book each time.
     
  28. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    If I had to guess they are accounting for the possibility you lose your book. Do you not get a new spellweaving book when you do the quest again? Putting all the spells in one book saves time and really isn't that big of an issue.
     
  29. Two things, the way you said that makes it sound like we asked for things and got them. Not what happened. Asked for things for 8+ years while getting ignored, then they decided to do some stuff anyway, and we're supposed to be grateful they've listened? They haven't listened.

    Secondly, what is there not to get? You don't have to like something just because they did it.
     
  30. Yes but you don't lose the ability to cast WOD when you summon Pixies which are entitled from a different quest.
     
  31. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Maybe they could just rank it:

    If you are at 90-100 in one or two bard skills you can pick 1 mastery skill.

    If you are at 110 in one or two bard skills you can pick 2 mastery skills.

    If you are at 120 in one or two bard skills you can pick all 3 mastery skills.
     
  32. Phaen Grey

    Phaen Grey Lore Master
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    I don't see that any of the bard skills have changed in any way, shape or form. Without a mastery I can do anything I could do before. The mastery is a bonus, one I can choose to use, and choose to change at any time. Specialization shouldn't be all encompassing.

    Whining over having to make a choice of which gift you want is sad.
     
  33. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    That wasn't related to your comment. If you don't like the fact you don't get all 3 mastery on the same character so be it but it is has nothing to do with the book itself. You, of all people, should realize that bards don't really need that much power even if it would be nice to have it.

    Mastery in this form is a good thing. I am unanimous in this decision!
     
  34. Its not a case of power its a case of fun, they put new things in people are going to want to use them, they're not going to want to keep doing some stupid (and they are very stupid) quest, running around looking for rabbits and healers, goats and mongbats. Its like they FINALLY give us something, 2 spells each fine np with that, but then they put in all these silly little rules that just make it a chore. Did Tamers need more power when they got Dreads & Greaters? Not really. Did it mean they couldn't use their other pets? No. I don't see there is any reason the bard addition should.

    *Not to you but something else...*

    How do you stop an effect? Say you want to stop it before it drains your entire mana pool is that possible? Anyone know yet? Edit: nm just found out, casting certain spells stops them.
     
  35. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    You got me here. I'm more of a fan of having to choose a mastery rather than the actual boon/restriction they place on it in this case.
     
  36. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    It takes a special someone to call a completely new addition without changing anything existing, a nerf.

    I don't see an issue with having to pick one thing to master. It will make play styles more diverse.
     
  37. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    QFT
     
  38. maroite

    maroite Guest

    If thats true, then why are toons with Tailoring/Blacksmithing/Carpentry/Alchemy all GM'd allowed to A. Do BoD's for all of them, and B. Be able to make nice items/use top end hammers?

    Although I generally like Radian, and I agree to a point with him, tedium does not make the game better, and the problem could be fixed by just allowing people with 120 in peace/disco/provo the ability to use those spells once they finish the quests.

    But like I said, only allow one to be active at any given time. So you still need to CHOOSE which spell you want to use, in what situation. There is no difference between this and the current set up EXCEPT that the current set up is like a punishment for people who want to play pure bards.

    The fact that to play a pure bard takes up 120x4 (at most) skill points is just another reason why they should just set it up this way.
     
  39. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
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    just my 2 cents, im actually a musician in real life, its my night job and my hobby. ive taken lessons in jazz as well as studied classical. 2 entirely different styles of music. there are musicians ive met who have degrees in 3-4 styles of music. they have MASTERED these styles. yes i know its game, but it is possible. i feel you should be able to master at least 2 of these at the same time. cmon its 2 abilites per skill. consider it a wep special move. i for one would have liked to see provoke and disco work on players. maybe overpoered but hey from what i read all offensive skills have some overpower to them(depending on who your talking to).
     
  40. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    As long as only one song can be in effect at a time I don't see the issue with letting ppl matster all of them.
     
  41. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    You know, all those arguments of "it would be like if [class] had to [action] to get [result]" would be really good if the bard skills were anything like the analogised skills in function. But they're not, so they're not.

    I want to say "I don't get why people are complaining about this", except I do.
    It's a sense of entitlement. That you have the skills, and so you should be able to do anything related to it.
    You're not seeing it as a choice to be able to do something, you're seeing it as having to choose what not to be able to do. That by taking one mastery, you're shutting yourself out of being able to use the other masteries until you do a quest to change your choice.
    It's like when Arms Lore was made to give bonuses to weapons and armour, people complained about having to fit another GM skill onto their crafters.

    To conclude.
    It staggers my mind that the devs can make an addition, which does absolutely nothing to detract from the original function of the skill, and people will still complain bitterly.
    It's like you're not even looking the gift horse in the mouth, you're just complaining that it's not the right colour.
     
  42. TheGhostRaider

    TheGhostRaider Journeyman
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    I just come from TC and did two quest ( disco and Provo) and it seen that I can only use once Master skill at the time. I can switch between them. I still need to test this skill during combat and with friend. Look like it will be a nice add on for a bard support.
     
  43. Hmm, that's interesting. What was required for you to switch between them?

    Back to the ongoing argument in this thread. I think bards angry because all bard skills are being looked at as a single skill. In other words, someone who dedicates 240 skill points (music & either discord, provoke or peace) get the exact same amount of mastery skills as someone who dedicates 360 or 480 skill points.

    The best example would be crafting skills, which already have something akin to mastery. Carpenters can read a book and be stone-masons. Alchemists can read a book and blow glass. Miners can read a book and learn to dig up gemstones and granite. 3 separate skills, and the same person can master them all. If instead "crafting" were classified as a single skill set like "barding" is being handled, then you could only master one of those things. (Ok, so nobody cares about crafting glassware or stone, but you get the picture).

    People rarely run with more than one melee skill, but they often go with multiple spellcasting skills. Necro Mage, Mystic Mage, Necro SW Mage, and on and on. People are able to reap the benefits of each 120 points the dedicate to a new skill. For each 120 points they use, they can operate at the same efficiency as someone else who has just one spellcasting skill. Bard skills should be looked at in the same way. Otherwise, I think what we'll end up with is people choosing a max one bard skill, then mixing in with other skills. I'm not saying this is good or bad, personally i don't have any 480 skill bards, but I just don't believe you should be forced to operate a lower efficiency just because you selected more than one bard skill.

    I'll just say that if the skill mastery is a way to enhance the bard experience and perhaps encourage more people to give the skills a try, then forcing mastery choice is a mistake. The main reason for my belief is that players will continuously find themselves in different situations. It's normal for people to hunt in a group, then go off and hunt on their own; to hunt a peerless boss then tiny creatures at a mini-spawn; to be killing monsters then forced into PvP. The different skills are beneficial in different situations, and being forced to choose one will limit the playability options. I think it makes most sense that people who have reached a certain level in a skill can achieve mastery in that skill and just limit use to one at a time. That makes the logical sense as well, that someone can be grandmaster (or legendary) in peace, provoke & discord, but they still can't play more than one song at a time.

    Finally, a little rant. Yes, bards did get some of the stuff we asked for, but GOD is right when he says we've been asking for these things for 8 years. In the interim, every other adventuring class (I'm leaving crafters out of the discussion) has received lots and lots of new stuff. Dexxers have gotten massive swing speed & damage bonuses, hit spells and effects, special weapon attacks, not to mention support skills like chivalry, bushido & ninjitsu. Archers got all that and more. Mages have gotten gear for FC/FCR, Mana Regen, LMC, spell damage increase, invasion spellbooks and whole new schools of magic. Tamers get several new pets every major publish, not to mention greater dragons and dread warhorses. Bards got...nothing. Since discord was introduced (along with a HUGE nerf to provoke), bards have gotten no new skills. Bards have received no useful equipment (dread flute isn't exceptional, flutes of renewal were thrown in simply because instruments are the only items that can be repaired or runically crafted, they give no advantage). So, now that they have finally decided to give bards some attention, we're just hoping it's something we're happy with.
     
  44. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
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    its on test center, i dont think it so much complaining as it is feedback.
    and yes it should stagger your mind the devs made an addition which does aboslutley nothingto detract from the game.
    if your going to make an addition to the game, it should serve a purpose dont you think?
    we had what in the entire life of the bard skill in this game
    disco(love it)
    fire horns(make lrc apply and ill be happy)
    a cool sounding flute that does nothing special(dread flute)
    slowly recharging flutes and some uber slayers(hmm i see no difference bewtween them and my gm instruments)
    so uhm yeah that wraps that up.
    dont get me wrong what they have for ideas is great.
    as i see it this just the first day, put on your steel-belted underwear
    gonna be alot more "testing" and "feedback"
     
  45. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    Good thing I brought my hard hat and my flame retardant suit.

    1: Masteries.
    Yep you can only have one. I like it like that. And its easier for -me- to balance game impact that way.
    With single mastery choices, it allows players to run around with templates that aren't always cookie cutter.
    Hopefully masteries take root eventually and new abilities can be added and new bonuses tied in.
    (If masteries had been for archers, there'd be a distinction for cross bows and bows. But I don't think archery is in need of loving right now).

    2: Quests: Initially I had a draft for quest chains to unlock the mastery and each ability under that mastery and allow players to repeat them as needed.
    Then I had a second thought that after 8 years people playing bards may not really want to embark on a 45 minute quest to gain access to new abilities or shift between different masteries. At the same time, I don't like the idea of flipping a switch or simply changing your hat and now you are something completely different. The goal of these quests is not to provide a difficult or time consuming challenge for players who have invested hours, days, months building up skills. The quests simply require 3-5 minutes of effort, ACTUAL PLAYER effort, with a guaranteed result.

    3: Abilities: The abilities are meant to be situationally(my word) useful.
    They are a good buff for the bard themselves. And with the right suit and skill adjustment most of the beneficial ones can probably be sustained indefinitely.
    They depend on playstyle and goal.
     
  46. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    I like this idea. While this change is good, the having to constantly change your skills just because you've bothered to GM multiple skills is beyond silly.

    Btw, is that real skill you need to use these?
     
  47. Snakeman

    Snakeman UO Forum Moderator
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    So the ones of us that have dedicated 360 to 480 skill points now have to pick & choose what one we want to "Master" ? Personally to me it's bs, isn't 120 a Legendary person, not a master...? Too much screwing with mechanics & not enough time to fix real game issues that have been borked for ages. Fix real problems that hamper this game & leave things not broken alone. You want to really help Bards, lower the wait time to a reasonable amount of time to about have it is now! 10 sec is way to long
     
  48. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    The original skills are so bad nowadays, that an enhancement was needed. But this enhancement is a smack in the face of true bards and simply rewards 240 FOTM templates.

    Things are on Test Center to get feedback and find flaw, well, we're pointing one out here.
     
  49. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    I tried the new spells and I found several ways to use it in a good way. Its true, are designed for party, but these spells are incredibly usefull in the right situation.

    For the question of all mastery active, I think that is not necessary... there are very few template that allow you to use all bardic skills, and these few template rarely has enough mana regeneration/meditation skill to provide enough mana for the upkeep cost... Personally I switch bardic skills between disco or peace but I'd never had all 3 together.
     
  50. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    Just feedback, huh?
    If you say so.

    Like many skills, bard skills are powerful in the right situations.
    Even before the barding difficulty got messed up, bards were the most effective templates against the thanksgiving turkeys, not to mention the other times I've been able to use a bard effectively in situations my other characters would fold in. But no, by all means, we can all roll over like a kicked puppy and whine that they can't do everything.

    On the 240 skill templates... Why not reward them?
    They dedicate 240 points to one ability.
    Above that it's 360 for 2 (180 per), or 480 for 3 (160 per).