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Bard Mastery

Discussion in 'UO Bard' started by Logrus, May 22, 2010.

  1. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    Ok here's a short workup for modifications to the mastery system that are in consideration, pending how well they play together and what the possible implications may be.

    So some may not make it at all, some may change slightly etc. usual disclaimer about guarantees and product returns.

    In no particular order

    All Abilities: No longer interrupted by any bard skills.

    The non-directed/non-focused/aoe/passive abilities, which is pretty much anything except despair. Though this may go for tribulation as well (pending some testing)
    Would not be interrupted by the bard casting spells.
    (I guess nobody on test ran a stoneform preservance bard. That was fun)

    Despair/Tribulation
    Slight lowering of the damage from despair/Tribulation in PvP, and raising of the damage in PvM. (Possibly factoring in Resist Spells of target)
    (Possibly also awarding bonus damage for bard also having provoke/peacemaking , so that high damage still very possible for Bards investing alot of skill points.)


    AOE Party Effects:
    Allowing bard to run multiple spellsongs at the same time.
    (May be interesting to stack Despair and tribulation but for now not being considered)


    All Abilities:
    Lower mana cost for casting and upkeep if the bard has multiple bard skills.
     
  2. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    great, if now we can cast spell all take a good uses on current templates :)
    the low mana cost is also a great thing.

    I think tribulation should not being interrupted by spells (because its damage bonus would be usefull to use with a mage too, and pure bards are almost mages...), maybe lowering the damage bonus would help if its too powerfull ;)

    For now thanks for focusing in the problem :)
     
  3. Yay! I want to give a big thanks for listening. Thank you Logrus.

    I know that there are still testing & balancing issues to come, and there's a lot of stuff to be ironed out and all of it may not make it. But it feels really great that you've listened to our concerns and have given them serious consideration.

    Really, I'm not looking for bard to become the next overpowered skill or template de jur. I actually like it that most people don't know how to play bards; but we're getting overrun by archers & getting there with mystics. I'm just glad there are reasons to not mothball the skills forever.

    Best case scenario, I can play my existing templates with some added flare, and creatively fit bard skills into some other templates. Count me as excited again.
     
  4. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
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    you da man logrus, sounds like a good compromise?
    not to be pushy, but will other cetain other class spells also not interrupt, perhaps non offensive spells like greater heal,cleansing winds,remove curse?

    and when can these newer changes be tested?
     
  5. Hrm, you're saying spells no longer interrupt anything except Despair? That and Trib will be the main ones we need to cast with as damaging things causes you to get flagged/damaged.

    A Stone Form Perservance bard wouldn't work, you would only have 240 pts left for offence, which would have to be Wep/Tactics or Tame/Lore as previous revision couldn't cast, couldn't cast Mysticism spells, and would therefore have no way of healing the pet or yourself. (Unless you went Heal/Anat - but again you'd be back to no offence.)

    (Without cancelling the effects I mean... which would defeat the object of building for it... oh and no way to sustain the mana needed.)
     
  6. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
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    the one thing i have to say for bards, we have been blessed with disco not getting aggro'd
    i would compromise on this personally for the sake of non interrupting offensive spells.
    im still pushing for fc/fcr for bard timers, any chance of this logrus?
     
  7. The way I read it is that the provoke/peacemaking masteries will not be interrupted by casting spells (of any kind). That should allow most of the bard/mage, bard/archer & bard/tamer templates to utilize the new mastery songs when hunting alone or with a group.

    Despair & tribulation will have different rules and are still being reviewed & tested. I can definitely understand why these are more sensitive because they are the ones primarily useful in PvP. And PvP is always a balancing challenge, not to mention other players might start complaining.
     
  8. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Thanks for reviewing but I'm still going to continue to shout about bard timers.

    LOWER THE TIMERS on bard skills.
     
  9. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Target range for despair spell should be the same as discord. Currently it is like 6 or 7 tiles.
     
  10. Shelleybean

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    Wow this is great news! Thank you very much for considering these changes. :pint:
     
  11. AzSel

    AzSel Lore Keeper
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    Yes to that!

    Oh and thanks Logrus, I really hope we can cast spells and most mastery abilities wont be deactivated when we do so. *thumbs up*
     
  12. uoBuoY

    uoBuoY Guest

    Agreed...

    And why does the Bard timer affect Animal Lore? After I Disco a monster I sometimes want to checks it's resists, etc. and can't until the Bard times is over.
     
  13. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Finally someone that actually uses the skills chimes in! I do the same thing very frequently. There should be nothing but the standard delay between those 2 skills, by standard I mean the second or two like you have between using an item and using it again.
     
  14. How frequently are the upkeep costs taken?

    How much Med/MR is needed to sustain your mana level? (Or at least not have it drop.) For Invigorate, Tribulation & Despair, assuming you have 40 LMC also.

    With 1 bard skill it seems to be 120 Med, 20 Focus (JOAT), 40 LMC, 19 MR for your mana not to deplete with Invigorate.
     
  15. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    actually the upkeep cost is taken every second and for the most spells you need to regenerate at least 8 mana per second for sustain the cost (in a party of 2 members). The more you are in party the more it cost, but I have not tested how higher can goes...
     
  16. It doesn't seem to be every second, seems more like 2, or something in between.

    8/s is before LMC.

    This was with no party/pets just for self.
     
  17. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    I tried again, looks like from 1 and 2 seconds... probably 2 you're right :)
     
  18. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    It should be every 2 seconds.

    For full sustainment, You'd need just about 3 mana regened per second at 40 LMC.

    Probably best to go about with higher int, and meditation rather than the really high MR on suit. I think Phoenix posted the MR formula up a while back but that was a pretty ugly thing.
     
  19. Diggity

    Diggity Guest

    In PVM, a solo fighter with bard skills can also sustain spells with a good mana leech weapon, 40 lmc and sufficient targets. Wraith form would also work. Under the current restrictions tho, why bother? Giving up spells/bushido/ninja/chiv (specials still work -intended?) for the "benefits" of spell songs - not to mention the 240 skill points - didn't seem to be a good tradeoff. Likewise a solo mage bard can already solo whatever a bard can solo. The new spellsongs don't seem to add a net benefit vs the restrictions. So I'm hoping there are some changes like described in the op.

    I still think there is some potential for spell songs in group play. Not easy to play around with on tc tho. Does invigorate work to heal energy vortex, nature's furies and rising colossus? Anyone know?
     
  20. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    you are wrong. A warrior take no benefits by casting these spells by himself because a damage of 15+ will interrupt the effect.
    A mage with these spells will lose lots of mana for keep it active and casting other spells will drain his mana much faster... so there is no much chance to do more than you actually do. The unique difference is that bards will be able to do something instead of watching.
    If spells will break the effect you'll see only bots following the characters around. Imagine a sampire with a bard bot behind. He has no bard skills and the bot has full bardic skill and noone will stop him. In this case everyone can solo everything. If you spend equip and skill points on barding ability your firepower will be much less.

    However, the effect helps only the ones who can be usually healed (summons like earth elementals and pets)
     
  21. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    Interrupt damage is 20 in PvP, 30 in PvM.
     
  22. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    im hoping to get off work tomorow and be able to sink my teeth into trying some of these new things out for myself.

    i fear that my old template will restrict me.
    my standard bard template is
    120 music/disco/peace/provo
    with 110 magic and 110 ei
    then 20 in focus (cause im too cheap to buy a 120 mage and ei)

    then i run a 100 LRC suit with 40 LMC and as much MR as i can get.

    but recentlly ii have been stoning off my peace and putting on 110-120 med depending on shard.

    i guess ill have to stick with that for all the bards and pick a baring skill to retire of the 3.

    that or stone off the EI but i really like haveing some spice to my spells.
     
  23. AzSel

    AzSel Lore Keeper
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    How does that work? You have to take the full 30 dmg in one hit or does it count like 11+11+8 and then youre interrupted? For instance bandages work like you have to take the full amount (25 pvmdmg) in one hit for a fingerslip.
     
  24. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    well... 30 damage is almost common...
    all peerless does 30+ damage (stygian dragon 60+)
    named monster 20+
    even GD, Ogre lords, ancient wyrm do 30+

    so if you hunt ettin you can use new spells till your mana is over with a warrior (and we speak about 4 seconds) :D
     
  25. sbom

    sbom Guest

    In PvM:

    - Bard tamers will be the ones who will benefit from the new abilities most. They will be able to dedicate their mana to the abilities while healing their pets with bandage and will still get the "work done" (monsters killed), with enhanced effectiveness.
    - Bard-mages will very quickly find out that they have to choose between casting or using the ability as they won't have enough mana to do both consistently.
    - Bard-warriors will have to choose between the ability and special moves (Weapon specials, ninjitsu, paladin, samurai) for use of their mana...I know which one they will choose :)
    - Provo-bards will do ok as they will be able to use the ability and still get monsters to kill each other. They will just lose the ability to use EVs as much as they currently do.
    - Disco/peace bards won't gain much: they still need to hurt the monsters...either with pet, weapon or magery...see above.

    Those points are true for both solo hunting and group hunting. In group hunting, what will be more important, to help kill the monsters or to make your friends kill the monsters a bit faster? Because of issues such as champ spawn scrolls, all will help killing monsters or they won't get looting/reward rights. What's the reward for supporting your group?

    In PvP:
    Bards can only be viable in group PvP in a support role as the use of a minimum of 200 skill points makes a bard a weak solo PvP player. The problem with group PvP is that people move too much and it will be hard for anybody to leverage from the bard support unless they stay next to the bard the whole time, which will not happen.
    The only exception may be faction base defense...I can't think of any other scenario where bards will actually be useful in PvP.
     
  26. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    - bard tamers: healing with vet is not the way because if you are using vet againist strong critters you are dead (almost everyone has area attack and you are the prior target)
    - bard mages: there are no attack magic in this new spells (unless you think the 60 physical damage is a real damage), so a bard mage cant do nothing if not stay and watch...
    - bard warriors: useless, every strong enemy can stop your ability and you have sacrified your mana for nothing
    - provo bards: why only make them casting vortex? only a ******** mage will try to solo strong things with summons (even a dragon will be too hard).
    - disco peace: if they cant cast they are kamikaze wondering healers.

    Is better try before say such things... try to stay and watch your friends playing for an 1 hour, and try to help your friend and do something for 1 hour, which one is more fun?
     
  27. sbom

    sbom Guest

    You're generalyzing. This is true of most high-end boss monsters but that is not the only thing to hunt in the game.
    You get a much higher healing rate with bandages than with g-heal and bandages is still the best way to heal pets ;)

    I know...that is what I said...bard mages is not getting any benefit from the new abilities as they don't help kill stuff and you still need the mana to do the actual damage!

    True for dexters but archers may be able to leverage the abilities (?), assuming they don't need the mana for special move...which of course is not the case...my point WAS that bard-warriors have no reason to use the abilities as they are usually tight on mana already.

    I never said to ONLY use vortexes, but that is one of the best weapon they have when doing first levels of champion spawns, which is still the favorite hunting ground for many players. Once you get to higher-level spawn, then provo is actually what gets the monsters killed.

    I completely agree. My whole point is that most template will not be able to use the abilities, unless they're ready to just stick around and watch, which is not fun for anybody...
    The only exception I could think of were the tamer-bard (Assuming you're fighting monsters for which you can use bands) and provo-bard who mostly use provo and not much magery as a way to kill monsters...but that's quite limited, and purely for PvM purpose.

    Any other template that will be able to make use of abilities and still actually kill stuff?
     
  28. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    has there been any thought on the Despair spell and people using it in PvP?

    I can see people casting the spell on you, then dismounting you and and sicking their hiryus on you. Dont forget the hiryu bleed so getting off a heal is hard enough, let alone doing 20 damage to the opponent to stop the despair effect.

    Also a lot of people use Speeder which makes running the 7 tiles away very very difficult. they just chase you and stay near you.

    Maybe Logrus you could log on to test center and see what I am talking about. It may help in your final decisions towards this barding ability at least in regards to PvP.
     
  29. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    read this row from logrus:

    we have to wait it comes to the TC then we can know how goes with this changes :)
     
  30. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    Yeah I was on test on friday and created a disco warrior template. I spent about 1 hour doing alot of killing with this template before people started to improve upon it adding bushido and a few other variations. I think spent a couple of hours fighting against that template with different configurations. The possible templates were way too powerful for the skill investment PvP wise.

    Hence bard changes post.
     
  31. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Basically if you are running a pure mage or a necro mage, even with high dci and a mage weapon, you are toast against a dexer running this new Disco stuff.

    Also what I meant was YOU play a pure mage or necro mage and see if you can live, let alone cast 20 damage to the dexer. And if you did, I would like to know that the out come was, cause im sure you didn't survive.
     
  32. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    easy solution: discordance spells wont work on pvp :)
    actually the pure discordance skill wont work on pvp because would be too powerfull (look the satyrs what can do againist a mage or warrior), so if the spell will not work againist players the problem is solved :D

    However, the bards are always been pvm only until now...
     
  33. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    This solution would be fine with me.
     
  34. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    For a mana regen calculator: http://www.uoguide.com/Mana_Regeneration
     
  35. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    the publish 66 is going on origin (then live...) without the bard fixes :rant2:

    it's time to begin working on a bot then ... :(
     
  36. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    It's not clear whether the changes made it into the Origin publish or not. It could very well be a case of James copying previous patch notes and not knowing about Logrus' changes. We'll have to hear from one of them to know for sure.
     
  37. ultima77

    ultima77 Guest

    What? I see no reference to interuption via spells or bard skills, only damage, which was far and away the most important change.
     
  38. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    TC still same, so origin will take these settings...
     
  39. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    I believe the despair damage changes went in to origin (but not Test). The others should hopefully start showing up on Test Center after I finish redoing the subsystems so that they can support the changes, and also pass internal QA.
     
  40. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    delaying the entire mastery system would be a better thing instead of put it live as it is :|
     
  41. gortman

    gortman Sage
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    I guess one good thing about this kind of rollout is that we can practice doing the bard quests. :)
     
  42. Haddy G

    Haddy G Journeyman
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    This is a must for pure bards. The mana cost should be very cheap when all bard skills are at 120. The mana use in it's current form cost too much, better to just stick with mage spells. I'm speaking from a pvm, pure bard perspective.
     
  43. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    you need practice the bard quests? :O
    discord 5 goat, peace 5 mongbats and provoke rabbits againist wandering healers need practice? :D

    not only the low mana cost is a must for a pure bard, but the chance to cast spells too!
     
  44. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Logrus has no plans to allow us to cast any kind of spells if we are using a spellsong. This became clear when he ADDED chivalry spells to those breaking the spellsong.

    I still would like an answer as to why when I use normal discord on a mob I must wait out the discord timer before I can use another skill like animal lore which has no bearing on bard skills.
     
  45. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    as I said this mastery system is made for double the accounts and all smart people will have a bot that follow his character if you cant cast. So I dont spare skill point and I get all the bonus without lose nothing :)
     
  46. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
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    Have they gone live on test yet, because I just died to it again 8 times in a row at 3:30 eastern time.

    And if you have restarted the servers and that is your fix :sad4:

    I am on the verge or quitting uo forever if you dont fix this. You may not care but i do, I have played for 13 years with 6 accounts and by far this is the worst thing I've seen since the Word of Death bug.
     
  47. Garm The Green

    Garm The Green Lore Master
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    Because UO is a lovely, broken game full of fault and charm.
    It's like your fave bag; we can't change it, but we can't fit everything in too :p
     
  48. gortman

    gortman Sage
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    Pinco,

    That was my poor attempt at humor. :(
     
  49. None of this made it in?
     
  50. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    this abilities not only are interrupted by spells but they use the real skill value... bha...
    the more I read about this masteries and more I think that are bad... the idea is wonderfull, the result is garbage... :(