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Beastial suits and pvp breakdown.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Vyal, Mar 5, 2012.

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  1. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    I think this should be discussed.

    You can AI these people in beastial suits 4 + times while they have 0 HP totally redlined and they don't die.
    Players in beastial suits can spam death strike over and over and over again with 0 timer on the deathstrike.
    However 1v1 without pets they basically can't be killed. So your going up against a player no matter the skill level of the player who only needs to stand there disarm and deathstrike to win.
    Then you have the 4/6 chiv parry beastial suit players who do nothing but spam heal, no matter how many players are attacking these type of players they are unkillable. I have seen VERY skilled players try to kill one of the most annoying unskilled tram players ever but the player could not be hit, and could remount a ethy with a group of players attacking them. To add to it the person was using "go fast program" and a packet program I won't name. Basically we have players running around now with hacks galore just doing nothing but being annoying to high heaven saying you can't kill me ahahaha your whole guild and 2 dragons can't kill yet I watch this person crank up the program and then hit the packet program to just run everytime they get dismounted.
    Now I am watching as entire tram guilds are suiting up in beastial suits & someone is telling them how to use hacking programs because I am watching as one by one they all start using the hacking program & start running the same temps with the same suits.
    Let me break it down now :)

    We have zerg guild, filled with faction players using 10 blues as meat shields all using parry disarm death strike smoke bomb temps in beastial suits with 4/6 chiv running "speed up" packet hacks.

    Where does it end? How does this fix or balance pvp? How does this solve the hacking problem. What I see is the new producer saying hey we know they cheat we know they ruin pvp. Yet entire guilds are running these actual HACKING programs and not scripting programs that could also be called hacking programs. & the problem is becoming worse and worse and worse. While the producer is saying they know these people are hacking.

    Sorry to go on but, it's ruining what I call pvp and UO if something isnt done soon myself & the 5 people I got to reactive accounts are going to most likely end up leaving. I am sure many others are pretty upset about this to I see posts all the time about the beastial suit problems.
     
  2. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    I have got to get a few sets of these beasty suits. *nods*
     
  3. ShadowTrauma

    ShadowTrauma Seasoned Veteran
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    I will say that I know of the guild he is referencing and that I have some questions I would love to have answered as well. My post will take a slightly different angle however. I don't know for sure who uses what program so I won't touch that topic. In regards to bestial suits my attitude on pvp is to always try and adapt, so for now I work towards that goal. If I could get some information at least on beastial suits it would be very helpful.

    What are the chances an attack will slip through at the different stages of beserk?

    How long does this benefit last and what is the downside to this benefit? - This question is in regards to the supposed heal penalty because like Vyal has stated I had the "honor" of dueling a chiv beastial suit user in a duel and when low he seemed to have no problem taking 0 dmg but still healing up. I thought this wasn't intended.

    Those are the two most important questions I can think of at the moment and would certainly help. I would like to preface this by saying I'm just returning from a break and this information may have been available somewhere, but that in the future if something of this magnitude is being considered that there is no downside to providing us with detailed information. I realize that UO is a game which does very little hand holding and I love it for that, but these suits are definately game changers and I am starting to see more of them as well.

    Thanks again for reading this look forward to hopefully getting some feedback/information.
     
  4. lupushor

    lupushor Guest

    I think the point of the devs is exactly to encourage pvp by prolonging the act.
    Now a fight would not be over in less than 30secs, thus appealing to more and more players to join in.
    Let's all get dressed in bestial suits and beat eachother with a stick.
     
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  5. EDA_GL

    EDA_GL Journeyman
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    When a dexxer/mage/tamer or whatever template goes into "beastial form" dont waste any high damage hit on them. A normal hit does just as well and will allow them to get out of "beastial form" quicker.
    So while spamming 4 AI's may infact do slightly (a few more) hit points of damage to them, test out just normal weapon hits. It will do properly scaled damage, but allow them to cooldown faster. *I do feel that the duration from orange form to normal form needs to be tweaked a bit*
    If you are playing a mage, and your target goes into beast form...spam fireball on them. Dont cast anything above a 4 to do damage. *Side note* Chances are they are para-bait anyways...spam para while your guildies knock em down (synched of course).
    If a dexxer is your character of choice, just normally swing at them. If on an archer, just normal shots.
     
  6. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    So picking up yer spell book and going home is not the only option to combat bestiality?
     
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  7. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    yup, I don't even fight them anymore. I guess my only option to fight people without these stupid suits would be to get lucky on Siege.
     
  8. ShadowTrauma

    ShadowTrauma Seasoned Veteran
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    Yeah mage from my perspective and had stumbled upon the strat you mentioned EDA sticking mainly with fireballs and magic arrows, however this individual was able to outheal most dmg with chiv spells. Thus why one of my questions was in regards to healing thru beserk. I had read that it intended to also prevent healing while it prevented damage. Did I miss read or drop the ball on my end somehow?

    And LoL Kelmo, liked that comment.
     
  9. PJay

    PJay Seasoned Veteran
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    A few people have tried these on Europa and we find they arnt a problem to kill ok takes a little longer but the end is inevitable.
     
  10. sativa green

    sativa green Journeyman
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    i'm pretty sure once they stop taking damage the effect ends. so if you don't damage them for about 10 seconds, the bestial buff will fade and damage reduction will not persist, making them an easy kill shot. i just spam heal and keep myself alive for those 10 seconds, then unload again. most players sporting these suits tend to run away, though.
     
  11. ShadowTrauma

    ShadowTrauma Seasoned Veteran
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    I agree with you that most players tend to run away and don't mean to devalue anyones opinions, however my experience is in 1v1's and whenever I attempted to wait out the buff he was able to full heal with chiv spells. I can also understand Vyals frustrations as I know that he tends to fight solo against this guild and they do run alot of beastial suits so his opinion is understandable to me.
     
  12. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    Problem is I watch someone with 4/6 chiv heal all the way up in about a second even with this suit on from like 1 hp. It's a waste of time to fight anyone anymore.
     
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  13. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Sounds more like OP is mad because him and his friends can no longer PK people doing champ spawns. As far as the 3rd party programs go they are just leveling the playing field.
    +1 for the Tram Guilds. :D
     
  14. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    So basically you are for making people who have no real pvp skill unkillable? and raiding these people a thing of the past because the don't die? It doesn't make much sense to me. I think it's getting time I say to hell with UO you morons can pvp with the suit, it's not any fun at all to me.
     
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  15. TBH

    TBH Adventurer
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    Imagine that, people have figured out how to beat the beastial suit without crying to the devs to nerf it. Ladies and gents, this isnt WOW or some other ez-mode game where the devs nerf everything because you whine about it. This is UO where the players adapt and figure out new strategies while the devs give you time to do so.
     
  16. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    Read the thread dude, you can 4/6 chiv heal fully with the suit in about 2 seconds.
     
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  17. TBH

    TBH Adventurer
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    Oh no, what are you going to do now? Whine more or math?
     
  18. ShadowTrauma

    ShadowTrauma Seasoned Veteran
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    Personally at this time I'd take more math, I would love to know how exactly these suits work. Like I said however Vyal's side of argument comes from fighting by himself not in one of these suits against guilds that run many versions of the beast suit builds. I personally being against him quite often, though not using one of these suits my experience come from duels mostly.
     
  19. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    A suit doesn't make the pvper; all this suit does is help keep them from dieing quickly, leaving them to run away or find some way to survive until the buff reactivates. I know it's a frustration but I wouldn't call it a major problem, just something that needs a different strategy. Many have already found ways around it and when you do you will have a greater feeling of success as you slay them.
     
  20. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    LoL
    True story, I was talking to someone who had just come back to the game after many years. He insisted I didn't know how to play because as it was explained to him all he needed was a bestial suit and death strike. Any other template was "stupid" and not worthy of being discussed. (Mage templates without poisoning apparently suck and so does archery)
    He belongs to a guild that has a guy that runs a greater dragon mystic who runs in stone form faster than anyone in my alliance can run on mount.
    I'm told it's my poor computer system and not a speed hack.
    Welcome back to UO.
     
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  21. ShadowTrauma

    ShadowTrauma Seasoned Veteran
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    Hah thanks flutter, and yeah I sort of believe it. Mage for pvp in my book and no havks hehe so I suck as well. On a serious note though I would honestly at this point just take some hard details on how the suit works so my brain can try and find different ways around this fun mechanic.
     
  22. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    [​IMG]5 of these people are using beastial suits. 2 of them are death striker smoke bombers. Two more stealthers in the suit that you can't see and a 4/6 chiv dexxer someplace with the suit. 2 of them are using speeder.
     
  23. SugarSmacks

    SugarSmacks Guest

    You can count on the dev who invented bestial suits being so bad at pvp without one he thought the solution was to make a suit to try to extend his life. I suppose trying to learn to get better wasnt a solution.

    These tactics are becoming comonplace on UO. Most people even think its "normal" now to make sure you never fight where you cant run away or able to run way way way offscreen.

    This was supposed to help pvp LOL! This is as pathetic as them recycling the poison patch from 2001 and shoveling it back into the game. EA has no concept of what to do about pvp because they do not pvp. They have
    no idea whats right and wrong is anymore, so your answer is now everything will be wrong. Or better yet they will do their current solution of "do nothing" because then you cant screw up right?

    But make sure to tell us of "more players subscribing", especially after you just threatend to drop all their houses if they didnt resubscribe.....amazing they brag about those figures, as if it wasnt expected.
     
  24. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Honestly, I think that these bestial suits are the worst implementation of an interesting idea we have seen in a very very long time. I don't want to see them gone, people spent 200k points on them, but they are in serious, serious need of some tweaking. I don't know exactly what the solution is, but something has to be done. It has gotten to the place where if you don't have a bestial suit, you simply can't compete.
     
  25. Xseries

    Xseries Guest

    This post couldn't be more accurate. The Bestial suit is way to OP'd. I've read the responses here and it's clear that 60% of you don't pvp. If you think any of these people wearing the suits are sticking around for the suit to wear off, your sadly mistaken. It's run in dump 100 mana on DP/AI and run away for the suit to recharge. Anyone stating that crying to the dev's is not the solution is simply because they are wearing the suit and all of a sudden they are GREAT! I know 6 people that have quit because of it, and i'm sure more will follow.
     
  26. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Take me out to Yew moongate,
    Buy me bolas and a crate,
    Potions and apples, smokebombs and a suit,
    If it's not a bestial the whole thing is moot.

    Going to root, root, root for my faction,
    If they don't win it's back to Shame.
    Well it's one, two, three more for the gank
    At the old Yew moongaaaaate!
     
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  27. TBH

    TBH Adventurer
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    What is the point of that screen shot? It doesn't help your case whatsoever. Were you able to kill an entire screen of players before the beastial suit? Who is OP again?

    It appears you were outnumbered 10 -1 since they are safely casting EVs to take out the Ogres now and not fighting among themselves.

    Are you really whining because you can't kill a screen full of blues anymore? I think the suit is working as intended, bringing you back down to earth by not allowing you to kill everyone on your screen single handedly when you are outnumbered 10-1 and forcing you to either even the odds or pick your battles more carefully. Math, son, you need more of it.
     
  28. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    You are missing the point sir. It has come to the point where a gargoyle with mysticism, ninja, and a bestial suit, is impossible to kill 1 v 1, and almost impossible to kill 10 v 1. You can poison them, disarm them, dismount them, and feed them raw pig meat full botchulism and trichinella spiralis, and they still won't die...
     
  29. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    So the group of players who are so utterly bad I can kill 10 of them now the suits are so over powered I can't even kill one they just run off and smoke bomb when they should have died 20 times.
    This is not balancing pvp this is making it as stupid as it can almost possibly get.
     
  30. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    People do get better. But if they are so utterly bad as you claim and constantly running I must ask, how did they kill you? All the suit does is help prevent you from dieing for so long it doesn't give you skill.
     
  31. SugarSmacks

    SugarSmacks Guest

    Honestly the worst part of the bestial suit is when used by a competent player in conjuction with a few other pieces can guarantee a player survivability while traveling through felucca. If you do not take that to heart a little bit with 1 facet being felucca and 5 being trammel ruleset, that the 1 facet needed nerfed even more? Truely a miner with a few tweaks could sit in protection in the suit and guarantee their survival. The suit is of poor design, and basically ruins any fighting outside of grinders, there is no counter and just caters to speedhacking.

    Honestly is there another game outside of ultima online where the players pay so much and the game is catered to speedhacking/scripting?

    I do know this on eve online first strike is a warning and a 7 day ban the secound is 14day or perm and the third is guaranteed perm.
     
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  32. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    I find it interesting the comments like "yay blues" and "go trammies" and whatnot. As if those who aren't as skilled in PvP are not supposed to die. It's all part of the game. It's why certain people play at all. If you are better at pvp than me then you SHOULD be able to kill me. I shouldn't be able to stay alive and escape just because I have a certain suit on. It's unfair, and I think that's what has most pvpers frustrated. It's not a red vs blue issue. It's not about letting people spawn or spawns or anything like that. It's about the game.
    PvPers have dealt with cheats, speedhacks, and general unfairness for years. Adding this suit into the mix is just adding insult to injury.
     
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  33. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Absolutely yes on all counts, and the last bit is what I've been screaming about for years now... And Flutter's right on the money as well...
     
  34. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Ok, after thinking about this for some time, this is how I would change the suits.

    - Make them so they cannot be used in conjunction with any other damage altering, or reduction spell or effect. That means no magic reflect, no stone form, no reactive armour, and no protection.

    - Make them so they block the ability to change forms, so you cannot use ninja forms, polymorph, incognito, or any of the necromancy or spellweaving forms while wearing a bestial suit, or put one on while under the effect of any form change. This could be accomplished by putting them on causing a form change, so that if you put on a bestial suit, you are actually changed into a beast, or perhaps as the berserk effect activates, you are gradually changed into a beast until the effect wears off.

    - In addition all forms of damage and harm reduction or reversal should be affected in the same way as healing when you are under the berserk effect. That means it should be correspondingly harder to cure poisons and remove curses. And the stamina refreshing effects of refresh pots, food, and divine fury should also be similarly reduced (don't forget that the berserk effect has it's own built in stamina refreshment, I'm not talking about getting rid of that).

    - (Vyal's idea modified) You should also not be able to use smoke bombs, hide or stealth while under the berserk effect.

    I think that would still allow them to be useful while addressing some of the worst problems with them.

    *edited to add in my idea from a couple of posts down so that all the ideas are in one post*
     
  35. ShadowTrauma

    ShadowTrauma Seasoned Veteran
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    I understand the direction you are going Llewen, I however would prefer something more concrete in regards to the benefit of the suit in general. At the present time when these players get redlined it seems that they are able to shrug of an incredibly high percentage of all the attacks thrown at them. What this percentage is I'm not sure anyone knows. It has to be at least 90% (based on feeling which is horrible, but I have seen no math from devs on this... something I would love to receive), all I would ask to lower the percentage if it is that high to something reasonable or make it a shield type effect that absorbs a set amount of damage. It needs to be an effect that people can understand and combat in someway not the overly strong effect it is currently.
     
  36. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    In addition all forms of damage and harm reduction or reversal should be affected in the same way as healing when you are under the berserk effect. That means it should be correspondingly harder to cure poisons and remove curses. And the stamina refreshing effects of refresh pots, food, and divine fury should also be similarly reduced (don't forget that the berserk effect has it's own built in stamina refreshment, I'm not talking about getting rid of that).
     
  37. Heartseeker

    Heartseeker Guest

    In pvp most people build suits for offense....this suit is built for defense.

    Besides if this suit didn't exist, the complaints would be about Tamers or Mystics, etc....

    It makes a nice option for people that want to live longer than a couple of hits/spells....

    It's funny how many complain about monsters being weak, but no one complains when they annihilate someone in a few seconds...
     
  38. SugarSmacks

    SugarSmacks Guest


    This suit alone guarantees you to be able to safely transport items in felucca.
    That alone ruins a great aspect what was left to this game.

    You might as well make fel just the 6 trammel facet because its quickly heading there.

    UO is fun with risk/reward however bestial suits just are another way to eliminate that risk.
    Making the reward worthless to many of us.
     
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  39. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    If one person is annihilating another person in a few seconds it's that person's responsibility to learn to defend/get away, not the game's responsibility to give you something that allows you to defend/get away.
    Comparing pvm to pvp is apples and oranges.
     
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  40. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    I like the idea of not being able to use animal form.
    Still, there is so many problems with this suit I think the devs never accounted for.
    The death strikers using this suit who do nothing but sit there disarm and death strike but can't be killed along with the fact there is NO TIMER on death strike so all you hear is "whaaacha" whaaacha" "whaaacha" over and over again & each one does 50 damage leaving you unable to move disarmed & the person your fighting is unkillable then at the RARE chance you are about to kill them he just uses animal form, hit's a smoke bomb goes away heals up and comes back.
    Maybe they should make it says something like you are in to much of a rage to use your smoke bomb at this time, I dunno.
     
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  41. Raptor85

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    Vyal, you hit the nail on the head there in the last post, the problem with the beastial suits, much like i've been saying too, has nothing to do with making the users themselves killing machines, damagewise they're no worse than without, and everythign to do with the fact that it allows them to do nothing but spam a few moves, and have a 100% chance to back off and heal when they feel like it and there's nothing you can really do to stop them. It's about the same as if you were fighting someone that when defeated is back 5 seconds later fully suited, full health to fight you again, they can just back off, attack, back off, attack, etc as much as they want and there's not really a lot you can do about it. (not to mention if they're faction, they get to avoid stat loss easily)

    I honestly don't think pvp was even considered when they made the suit, looking at most of the other things introduced around the time I think it was more "meant" to be fore surviving huge hits from the new bosses by letting you back off when redlined. (basicly making group fights against some of the larger critters less of a "res all your friends every 5 minutes") Basicly a poorly through through "solution" to the problem they introduced by making a lot of the newer stuff have 10k+ hp and hit for 100 damage through armor, as something that would allow non-sampire dexxers to actually have a chance at fighting things with melee weapons.

    Much like smoke bombs themselves, i don't think the beastial suit ability should work at all in pvp, it should only scale damage from monsters.
     
  42. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Not being able to use a smoke bomb is another good idea, in fact you shouldn't be able to hide or use stealth period while under the berserk effect. I'll add that to my post as well.
     
  43. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    As I see it the biggest problem with these suits is the synergies created with other spells, effects and abilities. What I've been trying to do is suggest ways of eliminating those synergies without destroying the core functionality of the suit. And I've never liked the idea of one set of rules for pvm, and another for pvp. I wouldn't want to see them removed from pvp altogether.
     
  44. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    The photo in post #21 says it all, a picture is truely worth 10,000 words.
    This is NOT about PvP, this is about Red PKers not being able to kill Blue PvMers working a spawn.

    Your post has nothing to do with PvP and everything to do with PKing Blues.
    This post needs to be retitled to "Beastial suits and PKing breakdown."
     
  45. Raptor85

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    So what? Someone should be able to run around invincible and be guaranteed to kill anyone who attacks them just because they're blue?

    World of warcraft is that way -->
     
  46. Eddie123

    Eddie123 Adventurer
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    The beastial suits did screw pvp up if u think they didn't you don't pvp...
     
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  47. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    One other thing worth noting is that just because a character is blue, and not in factions, does not mean they are a "pvm'r". There has been at least a partial return in recent months to the whole "blue vs. red" dynamic, in part due to the fact that most reasonably advanced players no longer need faction arties to make a decent pvp suit. As has already been noted, if you go into Fel, you are signing up for pvp, there is even a popup confirmation in many cases to make sure that you understand this when you do. This is most certainly about pvp.

    Before the advent of the bestial suit pvp was for the most part as balanced as it has ever been, but the bestial suit has completely thrown the entire world of pvp into chaos, in part by magnifying the few balance issues that were pre-existing out of all proportion.
     
  48. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Bestial suits are overpowered, and anyone who says they aren't is in denial.

    Do I use them? You bet. And I will continue to do so because they provide a distinct advantage.
     
  49. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

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    I have one character with a fully tricked out bestial suit and at least four more vanilla sitting in storage. I haven't played the character that has the bestial suit much after I figured out how insane they were, and I won't do anything with the rest of the suits until they are properly sorted - which I have no doubt they will be. I just hope they are still useful after the inevitable "balancing" that is bound to happen. If they are still useful, I'll use them, if they aren't, I'll be bitter about the millions I spent on them, but I'll get over it...
     
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  50. PJay

    PJay Seasoned Veteran
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    Are they OP? Maybe
    Do they make players unkillable? No
    Would it make a difference if these were removed? No
    Would it make a difference if these stayed? No

    The current DS Poison temp is OP due to the poisoning changes period with or without bestial suit...

    I personally couldnt care less if these suits stayed or went people will still run in dump and form away they are the wannabes and we shall allways have them in pvp.

    Now if i was to propose an alteration increase the cool down to 15 - 20mins then they get a 1 shot deal.

    This statement is totally wrong. Pvp has suffered at the hands of people with no experiance or passion for pvp if they thought they could keep the players they would probably remove fel alltogether. They asked for pvpers advice in the past and totally ignored everything its allways the same.
     
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