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Best 'tank' pet

Discussion in 'UO Tamer' started by Wulf2k, Aug 26, 2009.

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  1. Wulf2k

    Wulf2k Stratics Legend
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    Ignoring damage output, what's (generally) the best tank type pet?

    Highest resists/HP/wrestling.

    Something that can take a beating while somebody else's pack rips the target to shreds.
     
  2. Kyle Orton

    Kyle Orton Guest

    It's gotta be the Cu. High hit points and the ability to heal itself.
     
  3. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    Greater dragon.

    Wrestling over 120, physical and fire resists at 80 or higher, it's hard to beat that down with anything.
     
  4. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    Though the Cu Sidhe and the Greater Dragon are both excellent at soaking damage. It will really depend on what you are fighting to get the best results. The higher resists of the pet, will mean it will take less damage per hit. You will find that resist will make or break a pet's performance.

    My suggestions based on the damage being dealt.
    Physical - Greater Dragon (can max out at 85 physical resist)
    Fire - Greater Dragon (can max out at 90 fire resist)
    Cold - Cu Sidhe (can max out at 85 cold resist)
    Poison - Rune Beetle (can max out at 95 poison resist)
    Energy - Cu Sidhe (can max out at 85 energy resist)

    Now if you are fighting a monster that does a distributed damage (like a paragon Cu Sidhe (50%cold; 50%energy)), then you will want a pet that can handle both cold and energy damage.

    If you are looking for just hitpoints, the highest hit point (pre bless) pets you can get are the Greater Dragon (max of 1000) and the Cu Sidhe (max of 600). Though the rune beetle can only get to 360 hit points, its poison resist is unmatched by any other pet.

    The only pets that can train to over GM wrestleing are the Greater Dragon, Hiryu, Lesser Hiryu, and Reptalon.

    Look here: Animal Taming for all of the tameable pets. This is an excellent source of information here on Stratics.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  5. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    My 2cp's,

    Greater Dragon in every single case is the best tank for taking damage.

    Yes one can look at Resists and think that some pet can last longer but they are not taking into account the defensive bonus for the Legendary skills of the Greater Dragons, Let alone the what potentially +40% Hit Points.

    And if you factor in the Damage Output then again nothing we have available is going to out damage a GD over time.

    Yah, the CU healing itself and you is nice and all but is really over rated vs anything doing significant damage. It isn't the healing that makes vs Cold / Energy the Cu look good it is the Resists that does that. And Energy is only a 10% differential between the GD and the Cu.

    I do not want to be perceived as downplaying the Cu. I love em and play em all the time. But really you want to stick a slab of meat out there to take damage then it is always the Greater Dragon.

    And I am not sure if anyone else has noticed it or if it is just my GD's but they are out healing and out curing me .... when I am Greater Heal/Curing them.

    And this link provides very good information about your pets and their foes.

    UO Stratics - Hunter's Guide
     
  6. Pfloyd

    Pfloyd Colorblind Collector
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    You forgot or disregarded the other post about a paragon cu. There are others imho. Send in the GD and then a Cu on the paragon Cu that does all cold and energy damage. Take a cu and watch them heal and kill liches and lich lords in fire dungeon in the little room then leave a GD in there in the same situation. Take them vs paragon rotting corpses. All this changes to negligable with the tamers skills enhancing the pet but there are situations you need to pick the right pet.

    Lets not even talk about Crimson Dragons ability to make your GD go wild hehe
     
  7. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    My GD is a great tank.
    904 HP
    Wrestling 125.1 max
    Tactics 123.1 still going up
    Resist Spell 119.7 max
    Anat 100 max
    magery 102.9 Low, I know
    eval int 100 max
    med 100 max
    Took on 1 GD 2 Dragons and 2 Drakes at same time and I was able to vet him until all were dead. Can not beat the damage these things can do.
     
  8. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Wow, what a .... Ok, so your going to tell me, that you have a Cu that you can send in, BY ITSELF vs a Paragon Cu Sideh and it will kill that Cu Sideh, a Paragon RC and it will Kill that Paragon RC.

    Your right I did ignore it. It isn't real, it doesn't happen.

    But hey, lets just agree that we play different UO's and move on.

    And oh yeah lets make sure you throw in the EVENT ONLY Mobs that are designed to NEGATE Greater Dragons. What were you NOT there for the invasion NPC's that made Greater Dragons go wild? Or maybe you couldn't participate?

    Sure in terms and the spirit of the OP's question lets just go throw every EVENT ONLY mob's we can find to disprove something.

    And you really need to laugh at how you compare a (GD vs Paragons) vs (Cu vs Liches).
     
  9. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    You have a cu sihde that kills para cus? I have a cu with 598 hp and 93% or higher on every resist and he can't do it. Mind posting the cu's stats and your tactics? I'm very interested to hear your strategy.
     
  10. Pfloyd

    Pfloyd Colorblind Collector
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    i didnt say kill by itself but were talking about tanks....you want to time what lives the longest vs a paragon cu a well trained GD or a well trained Cu.
     
  11. Pfloyd

    Pfloyd Colorblind Collector
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    Lol, testy aren't we when we're proven wrong? You are the one spouting gibberish not me.
     
  12. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Yeah I did and by a 1000% increase it was the GD with me Vetting both at the same rate.

    OR to make sure you understand this the CU did no noticeable damage to the Paragon Cu before it DIED and the Greater Dragon had the Paragon down TO 60% health.

    Ah heck why not, lets make absolutely sure you get it. I have 2 accounts 2 computers each with a Logitech G15 Keyboard. That keyboard allows me to do MACRO's. Any one of my 4 Greater Dragons (2 on each account) can take out a Paragon Cu, Solo, with the one computer on autopilot macro for Vetting and me Vetting. NOT A SINGLE ONE of my 4 Cu's (2 on each account and 2 of the are GM healers) can take down a Paragon Cu no matter if I run two macro's on each computer (Vet + Greater heal on each computer and yes the G15 can do that).

    I turn Cu's over and I do NOT let Paragon Cu's get in my way.

    And lets get the OP's question clear for you ....

    ONLY ONE pet meets that criteria.

    The Cu has only ONE resist advantage of size and that is cold, Energy is a measly 10% difference. To simplify, Cu 600hp with 85% energy resist, GD 1000hp with 75% energy resists. You are really going to bet the farm on that cu? Come on I will take that action all day long.

    Unless you want to prove the Greater Dragon a wimp by taking your Cu vs Lizardmen and let a Pack rip em to shreds.

    :) You proved absolutely nothing. You made an assertion and apparently believe it to be true. You need to pay very careful attention here, I said the Event Only Mobs were designed to Negate the Greater Dragon. Clearly you were not in any of those engagements with a Greater Dragon and YES THEY WERE ABLE TO SURVIVE and easily outperform the Cu. One simply needed to understand the attack mechanism of the Event Mob and MITIGATE IT, which was doable. Perhaps you may want to read the threads here and in UOHall on how to do that for the next time.
     
  13. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    My greater dragon can kill para cus alone, whereas my cu cannot.
     
  14. Pfloyd

    Pfloyd Colorblind Collector
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    That is a very nice dragon but you posted opponents perfect for it...try the ones that AREN'T. In no way did i say that a GD is NOT the best for some situations. But they aren't the best for all situations.
     
  15. Pfloyd

    Pfloyd Colorblind Collector
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    forget about the vetting...which lives longer? can i see? i don't mind being proven wrong...
    I've already said the skill of the tamer changes everything.
     
  16. Pfloyd

    Pfloyd Colorblind Collector
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    What do you mean alone?
     
  17. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    Me + my greater dragon = can kill para cu. Takes lots of aids and greater heals, but I've never failed to kill one with just me and my greater.

    On the other had, I've never been able to kill a para cu with just my cu, including aids and greater heals.
     
  18. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Which lives longer? Do you even have a Greater Dragon and have you ever engaged a Paragon Cu with it? Lived longer? Sheesh what you think the Greater Dealt 40% damage on the Paragon Cu (what 5K to 6K HP's) in 2 seconds? I told you the GD lasted 1000% longer if NOT A LOT MORE.

    You really believe the GM healing on a Cu is NOT mitigated by Legendary+ Wrestling, Tactics? Let alone a Legendary+ Magery, and 100 EvalInt?

    In case you are unaware, Legendary in this context means a skill of 120, so Legendary+ means 120+ skill, as in Wrestling 127.8, tactics 123.1, Magery 121.9 You really think that Cu GM healing (and HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO HEAL vs Greater Heals by the GD?) is better than the above?

    And if I did as Syrus says, do the Vet+GH they (as in any one of the 4) probably could last the fight. I just do not fool around down there because of the stupid Paragon Changelings. They are fast, switch targets way to darn fast and will ignore all other targets in the pursuit of killing me.
     
  19. Pfloyd

    Pfloyd Colorblind Collector
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    No, i'm not discounting that those GD skills rock. You're saying that if a Cu lasted 10 seconds then a GD would last at least 100?

    I did just try it...maybe my memory is off but my cu lasted a lot longer than that and the GD didnt last any more. I am also going with my discord in there...as ive had it too long to remember what it was like without it. I now remember i wouldn't even start the attack of the paragon without it being discorded with 120 discord so maybe that changes the situation in favor of the cu as lesser wrestling and tactics on the paragon is like the GD's legendary skills in reverse. I still stand by my statement there are situations i would use a Cu over the GD. Liches and Lich Lords are still top of that list...If i died from their withers i had no doubt that my cu would live but i have doubts a GD would.
     
  20. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    You are saying you can discord a Paragon Cu?
     
  21. Pfloyd

    Pfloyd Colorblind Collector
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    Sure. There isnt anything that can't be discorded unless it says you can't...the highest discord anything can have is 160 now. There are some things that while they aren't too tough for experienced players can't be affected at all by discord (golems). There is a pic that LadyNico has of her discorded 4 Paragon Cu's and fighting each other...which is the only way you can provoke them btw.
     
  22. controlfive

    controlfive Guest

    i use a dragon like 99% of the time. i main a necro tamer, so less time babysitting pet health bars means more time blowing stuff up. kitsunes or hiryu work well for crimson dragons. i use my cu for farming honor since they don't use paralyze or poison, but that's literally the only time i pull him out of the stables, and a hiryu would work fine for that as well.
     
  23. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    Do remember what the original question was, which was "ignoring damage output."

    My advice was a greater dragon because that's the best all around damage soaking pet, which is at least acceptable to use in any given situation that doesn't deal with a crimson dragon.

    However, I'm willing to concede that a cu sidhe will soak up more damage against other cu sidhe simply because their high cold and energy resists counters the other cu's cold and energy damage. Yes, they won't do a lot of damage themselves, but that is the job for the supporting pets (in this case, a pack of ... something). But against other cu would be the ONLY time I would choose a cu in place of a greater dragon for the one-player-tanks, the other player uses a pack situation.

    But the list of what pet is best in a ceratin situation is an entirely different question, and can be answered in a dozen different ways.
     
  24. Kyle Orton

    Kyle Orton Guest

    Okay, I guess I'll concede. The Greater Dragon is a better tank BUT, I like the Cu better and that's what I'll use. :D
     
  25. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    My guildmate and I frequently kill paragon Cus. We use a Cu to tank the paragon and a pack of hell hounds to tear it to shreds. I have yet to see paragon cus die faster than that deadly combination.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  26. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    It takes several tries, but you can discord them. They have a barding difficulty of 160 (highest it can go).

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  27. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    Here are the stat's of the Cu I use to kill paragon Cus:
    HP: 593
    Resists: 56/45/84/45/85

    Here is my basic strategy for killing them on my own.
    1. Discord the paragon. This helps two ways: lowers the paragon's resists so I do more damage; lowers it's skills so it cannot heal as well.
    2. Command my pet to kill.
    3. Bandaid my cu as needed.
    4. Cast poison on the paragon, so it has to focus it's healing attempts to cure, not heal damage.

    You can easily lead a paragon cu to a safer area (away from potential changeling spawns) if you want.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  28. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    I was about to post that exact strategy. My cu has lower cold and energy resists though... and 65 physical, 43 fire, which makes it a very effective dragon/rikktor killer.
     
  29. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    When others and I are taming cus and we need to clear out the paragons, I will often just grab a fresh tamed cu with 80+ cold/energy resist for the tank pet. The other tamer will go get a beetle/mare (and if they don't have one, they take the cu and I get mine) and we will kill the paragons with ease. The beetle/mare combination is another good support cast for killing the paragons (still not as fast as those hell hounds though).

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  30. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I find in most situations, a GD is a better tank. Provided you can get them to the location. Being forced to walk kinda suck, but there's a reason they cost all 5 slots to control.

    Cus are great during those times where you can't get close enough to your pet to vet due to area damage - like succubus and shimmering. They tend to switch targets if they damage you.
     
  31. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    If you play with someone else, that's my fave strategy. Normally, wife brings the tank, I bring the beetle and mare. She has peace/discord and I have peace/provoke. So that'll about cover anything we come up against.

    Have not tried beetle and bake yet though. But the drawback for me with that combo is I am forced to walk...

    Also good would be 5 frenzies.

    This is against non-aoe mobs. With aoe mobs like shimmering, it's easier to mount the mare and just send in the beetle so that you can concentrate on keeping just 1 pet healed.
     
  32. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    In the context of the OP's question this .... well is not the Cu Tanking a Paragon and slot a GD in there and again the GD vastly out performs the Cu.

    It isn't clear to me why this needed to become a Cu is superior to GD thing with all kinds of player twists of how to get a mob so it doesn't munch a Cu measured in seconds. Why? For absolutely everyone one of the Player Driven Beating of the Mob the GD can be substituted and the results is overwhelmingly that the GD did it better.

    Now if we are off topic and all we are doing is bringing tactics on how to achieve a goal then fine.

    No, when I am turning over the Cu's I do NOT do it with a single Greater Dragon. I bring a Greater on the other account as well and Crush the Paragon Cu with both of them. Now match that vs your single Cu. Just how far are we going to go? :)

    As for the Discoing a Paragon Cu, I don't have Disco, I have Peace (120/120) and maybe I have never tried to peace one, maybe I should try to make sure of things. Because one would want Peacemaking and Discord to run by the same rules (not a tammer issue but a barding issue) of engagement. Because I can just as easily add a peace macro to the mix.

    *Shrug* I have never engaged a Shimmering.....

    The Succubi, at least the ones in Fan Dance (and a few in Ilshenar), I just take a Greater Dragon down there and turn it loose on the Succubi. Any of the ones I have can simply toast the Succubi and when it gets low enough it just Heals itself back up and Cures any poison they have cast. In short I can stay hidden and let the GD do its thing, regardless of that being to resotre Karma (Bad Cu's for lowering my Karma), raising Fame due to dumb deaths, regaining Pet Skill Loss's etc.

    Of course that is if I don't go do the Balron instead.
     
  33. Scarab

    Scarab Guest

    #1 bringing discord into the equation strays from the OP's question
    #2 for once I agree with Enigma. all things being equal, GD's are superior tanks in every situation not involving event mobs
     
  34. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    NP
    Fresh tamed Cu All Kill Target reg Cu Release tamed Cu Tamed Cu dies.

    Fresh tamed GD All Kill Target reg Cu Release tamed GD Tamed GD about 4 min later still alive. Went out , recalled and got FluffY GD (from above). Returned and the first GD was still alive but the untamed Cu was pushing up daisies. Had to kill it with Fluffy.

    So a tamed Cu has no chance of killing an untamed reg Cu, but a tamed (untrained) GD can kill an untamed reg Cu.
     
  35. Barry Gibb

    Barry Gibb Of Saintly Patience
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    Syrus asked how it was done and I directly answered his question. I included his question for reference.

    Stayin Alive,

    BG
     
  36. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I think most folks will agree that greater dragons are tough as tanks in many situations. Much as I hate and don't use them, they are good tanks. Though I'm always tempted to answer every question like this with either "what are you hunting?" or "well you match the tank pet's resists to the damage types of the mob you're hunting"

    Other than healing themselves, there is one thing that cu's have which greaters don't - they're mountable. So in situations where it gets out of hand and you don't want to leave the tank pet to die, you can pull the pack back to safety, mount the pup and leg it out of there. Or, as I've generally done as the re-mounted cu owner - pull the spawn back and try splitting it up.

    With a greater in that situation I found the alternative was to tell it to stop and follow, then walk with it following within bandange range and vet like crazy while keeping it just out of melee range of it's attacking mob. It's do-able, and taught me a handy way to vet a pet and cut out the melee damage from a group of monsters, but I preferred the hop on and run method with the cu.

    If you're hunting somewhere quiet then I'd say use a cu or greater depending on your preference, as either will be fine. Frenzies in a pack do a huge amount of damage though, so I think the greater would actually be unnecessary in many situations. The mobs will last seconds at best, so for the benefit of having a mount pet as the tank I'd sway towards a cu. A greater would be my choice only where the cu couldn't cope.

    Wenchy
     
  37. kaio

    kaio Sage
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    GD > everything
    iv'e tried every tamable pet in the game, and so far nothing comes even close to a simi-good GD.
     
  38. guum

    guum Guest

    This is pretty much my experience; although there are specialized situations where a cu or a rune beetle do well, GDs generally do very nearly as well. Granted, my cu only has like 85 healing (is there an easy way to train this?), so I'm not sure how much of a difference the extra 15 healing would make. But my experience is that cus just don't heal quite as often as I like -- a couple of times a minute usually. Compared to the healing throughput of vetting every 2 seconds, it's almost trivial.
     
  39. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    Disco is a game-changer.
     
  40. My Arctic Ogre Lorde, Mungo, can beat up poison elementals like nobody's business!...Oh, wait. Tamers, right. -.-
     
  41. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    I disagree with this point. In some thread maybe this one, I had asked if anyone elses Greater Dragon, Rune Beetle ... well any Pet with Magery has been seen to be casting Greater Heal and Cure on themselves ... a lot.

    Greaters have always cast Greater Heal and Cure but as far as I was concerned, when I was turning Greaters over, it was always at the end of the fight. They loved to Teleport away and Heal up.

    Now when I am for instance down in the Balron room in the Fan Dancers DoJo, my Greater will start spaming Greater Heal when is uhm, approaching half health, until he is about 3/4 health. If he gets poisoned, i rarely (maybe 1 in 45 poisons) need to cure it.

    As far as I am concerned this is a changed behavior.

    Now if one wants to isolate that to they use bandages to heal themselves and/or their companion, then *Shrug* ok. But if the spirit of the assertion is improving ones health, then again no, not really as the Greater Dragon and as far as I can see all Magic Casters do that just as well if not better than a Cu.
     
  42. Kyle Orton

    Kyle Orton Guest

    Jeez, why don't you just marry your Greater Dragon!
     
  43. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Hum, because it is just bits on a disk?

    I suppose you had a point to express but perhaps you failed to find the brain cells to actually do something with that thought?

    In short, what is your problem with people expressing their opinion, regardless of who it is and being rebutted?

    Perhaps you prefer a world were everyone worships you as the most brilliant thing that walks on 3 legs and just accepts that you know every thing about every thing and when you say, that A is the only thing that has Skill A and every one just looks at the ground rather than dare contradict you? :thumbsup:

    Just curious there .... well who ever you think you are, just how much time do you spend with your Reptalon getting it exercise and proper training, or if you dont have one, how about your Night mare or perhaps your Rune Beetle, maybe a Firesteed or a wimpy Hiryu, how about a blue beetle or a fire beetle. Or are you so busy fantasizing about how a Cu wipes the floor with every mob it meets and desperatly trying to convince everyone that your right.

    And if your thinking of "I never said or thought that" then just go ahead and answer this, wtf do you think your post contributed to anything.
     
  44. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    My oldest cu heals from the start of a fight until he's on full health afterwards. The only times I've needed to vet at the end were when he came out of combat and hadn't fully healed himself back up. He's healed me up a lot which is a lifesaver at times. No amount of spicy spare ribs will persuade my casters to do this though...

    By contrast I have a pair of kits that are near perfect at healing themselves, but it doesn't usually kick in till they're on low health. They can make up for it but I need to watch and vet alongside it.

    So I'd describe the cu is a healer because it's reliable and heals the player too. And yes, it has healing skill and bandages lol. Casting pets help out but I don't see them as healers as it's too flaky. But if it makes you happy to call your GD a healer then by all means do.

    I choose cus first because they're mounts, then secondly because they heal themselves and have enough HPs to tank well. I've used hiryu as tanks a lot too. It certainly isn't all about the healing.

    Wenchy
     
  45. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    Lol, he was obviously kidding. A tiny bit sensitive are ya?
     
  46. Nenime

    Nenime Guest

    I'm going to Dreadhorn tonight. I've been there before with a Rune Beetle / Nightmare combo and it was all good. But I thought the damage output from a GD would be more valuable. What do you think?

    In regard to template, I go with Spellweaving/Medi because we already have a full bard aboard. Dragon has 950 hitpoints and 82 physical and 59 poison resistance.
    (Skills see pic)

    [​IMG]
     
  47. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    :) If it makes you happy to call your GD a NON healer then by all means do.

    The issue is, you stated that Only Cu's healed them self.

    If your Magic Casters are not up to Healing themselves well then .... you may want to pay more attention to them or get better ones :)

    All I am saying is they are obviously poor pets to convince you that they are NOT healers. :thumbsup:
     
  48. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    You can't safely call a type of pet self-healing unless they all do it. Which they don't.

    LMAO.

    Well if you think spamming heals makes a great pet, clearly you have the better pets. I have the very crazy notion that my pets should be balanced offensively and defensively to actually kill mobs, rather than save me the effort in supporting me. So aside from the fact I couldn't care less what you think of my pets, I'm more than happy with their performance.

    Wenchy
     
  49. Kyle Orton

    Kyle Orton Guest


    Actually no, I didn't have a point to express. You are obviously a nasty person, with no sense of humor who needs to lighten up.

    Not to mention the fact that you attack anyone who doesn't agree with you. And all your *shrugs* and smiley faces don't hide the fact that you are a pompous, pedantic person as well.

    As for me and my "wimpy hiryu" and other pets that you turn your nose up at, I apologize for playing with the pets that I enjoy and not just the ones that make things easy. I was lightening the mood with a joking comment, not attacking you. You took it there. So you ask yourself this when you're wandering around with your precious GD, "Do I actually have any real skills? Is watching my dragon demolish things fun or am I just compensating for my lack of skills and crappy playstyle?" Think before you judge people you know nothing about.
     
  50. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Yes that was a funny way to force your viewpoint :)

    Just goes to show you .... doesn't it :)

    And Yes Greater Dragons DO HEAL THEMSELVES AND YOU ARE WRONG.

    Now just how is that going to be dealt with that this time? :thumbsup:

    You are entitled to your LMAO standards for a pet, To me that standard is the bare minimum requirement. :) My requirements is they meet your requirement in a superior way AND BE ABLE TO STAY ALIVE WITHOUT ME :)

    What can't tolerate a difference of standards being expressed in a *cough* open forum?
     
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