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BOD system revamp

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Mechanic, Aug 9, 2008.

  1. Mechanic

    Mechanic Guest

    how about this?

    instead of the dreaded RNG system of pray for a good BOD

    how about a point system, or turn in system where you could turn in bods for points like the spring cleaning, eventually you will a reward that you want , instead of the current "I have played since beta and never got a val hammer" system?

    I'll let you figure out how many points BODs are worth compared to rewards.
    I still feel you should be able to buy hammers and kits from the smith and tailors.
     
  2. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    I would be all for a points system, however it would have to be dual teired to work:

    Small BOD rewards and Large BOD rewards would have to be on separate teirs to keep people from simply filling out hundreds of junk BODs for the top prize (not that that doesn't happen now, but at least right now you have to get the right parts of the highest BOD to get the highest prize instead of JUST filling out junk).

    So basically, in terms of the Smithing BOD system you might have something like this:

    Small Deeds give points on the Small Deed Reward Chart which would have:

    - Sturdy Tools
    - Prosp Tools
    - Garg Picks
    - Mining Gloves
    - Dull, Shadow, and Copper Runics
    - +5, +10 Power Scroll

    Large Deeds give points on the Large Deed Reward chart which would have

    - Bronze and higher Runics
    - +15, +20 Power Scroll
    - Ancient Smithing Hammers
    - Colored Anvils
    - Powder of Fortification

    With the points scaled accordingly.

    While it would be nice to have a bit more control and the feeling of "working toward something", it would have to be done in a way that at least tries to limit the ability for someone to make a junk smith to get a BOD every hour or two, fill it and build up nothing but junk small weapon BODs to get a Val runic.
     
  3. Black Majick

    Black Majick Certifiable
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    I could dig it. Would you still be ableto get a new bod after filling one up and turning in though. If not could still take teh casual player along time to get there high end hammer.
     
  4. I've had a GM smith for 6 months now, on the way to Legendary and have never received a valorite small BOD let alone a large one.

    I agree, please totally revamp this system, its so obvious that the few rare BODS that exist to give you the valorite hammer are only given to the dupers who are then banned, meaning the rest of us have no chance to get a valorite BOD let alone a valorite hammer.

    And, by the way, I think it is a **** up the *** that the higher your crafting skill, that you only get 1 BOD every 6 hours. So I have BOD running characters to go every hour to get the crap BOD's so that my one GM crafter who only gets 1 BOD every 6 hours can turn in the crap BOD's in the hope of getting decent ones.

    Shouldn't it be that if you GM a crafting skill where you can receive BOD's that you would be able to get more, not less BOD's in a day, as a reward for spending the time in GM'ing that skill in the first place?

    I need more red wine...

    "I don't want more things, sweetie, I want better things"
     
  5. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Edina, I don't seem to have the difficulties you do.

    If you stop for a day or two, and only collect those hourly BODs and your 6-hour BOD, and let them accumulate, then do them as a big batch, doing the turn-in/request new thing, you'll get lots of things - especially once you hit 120 smith.

    I hadn't gotten a Valorite Hammer BOD in my first 5 years (and only 3 Valorite BODs of any type) -

    Then with the BOD changes in February, only supplying my 120 smith with the iron BODs from 5 other characters (All of them 1 BOD 6 hour types, not 1/hour, so I had less BODs than you to work with), over 3 months, I got 3 Valorite Hammer smalls, and 9 other Valorite BODs. (and no, I'm not counting any colored BODs I got with the other character - my spreadsheet I put together to track my BODs only is for my 120 smith's BODs)

    That's 3 valorite hammer BODs over the course of about 2500 from the one character, by turning in 100 iron BODS, then turning in the 50-70 Iron BODs I got back, etc. until I ran out of ingots or iron BODs - doing that once a week.

    Then the events came, and then having to work on rebuilding some of the stuff I did for the Stratics crafting forum.

    It's not impossible for the small-scale BOD person to get the valorite BODs - it just seems you got to do mass iron BOD turn-ins to do it (none of my Valorite BODs came from the normal 1 every 6-hour runs, but came from the mass turn in to get new BOD sessions).
     
  6. 1 bod every 6 hours? you can get a new bod instantly after filling a junk bod. Just keep doing that until you get a not so junky bod
     
  7. HD2300

    HD2300 Certifiable
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    I think the whole BOD system needs a revamp.

    0.1 skill tailors and blacksmiths getting a BOD each hour are simply a joke. The current system that rewards scripters and dupers has wrecked the game, as there are tons of uber armour and weapons out there made from scripted or duped runics.

    Giving each >100 skill crafter a random daily quest that is unscriptable would be a better system. Each completed quest gives you more points and you can exchange points for different rewards. The new system must be unscriptable, with anti-duping checks.
     
  8. Thank you guys, I understand that.

    I have been doing that with my tailor.

    But just to be an instigator, who has the time for that? I mean, 6 months to get one valorite BOD? Come on...

    I spend my entire day on Sunday, every Sunday, every week, which I have designated as BOD day, for my crafter, which is one character, to do all the little crap BOD's that my other characters have religiously collected for him all week long every hour. Last Sunday I turned in 197 small tailor normal cloth BOD's, and out of that, I received 32 BOD's that were not normal cloth. That's a 16% return on BOD turn ins just for tailoring which is not as complex as Blacksmithy, and I haven't tested it, but I would bet that the percentage of turn in vs. getting better BOD's is less for Blacksmithy.

    I am also taking into account that other game factors, such as luck, have nothing to do with what type of BOD you get and when (which I think is totally wrong since luck only applies to loot and not to crafters, as in increase to chance of enhancing items, etc.)

    My crafter is a GM carpenter sitting in Heartwood grinding out foot stools in the hopes of getting a runic dovetail which to this day 6 months later I haven't gotten one runic dovetail.

    The same character is also my Elder tailor / GM smith (working towards Elder - legendary) grinding out small BOD's in the hopes of getting better BOD's.

    I have BOD runners for tailor, but now have to shift my other characters to drop skills to get 30 blacksmithy to collect 1 hour crap BOD's to support my 1 crafting character.

    It seems to me the crafter is getting shafted. Again I say, shouldn't there be a reward for GM'ing the skill, as in, instead of 1 BOD every 6 hours... HELLO? Can I get some love for GM'ing a crafting skill?

    And don't get me started on how crafting weapons and armor has gone down the toilet with item insurace and artifacts.

    I play on Oceania, which is a scarcely populated shard at best, and 90% of my customers are new players to the game. Which means my vendors are hardly selling with the total weapon/armor item crafted to getting an artifact and insuring it imbalance. Why craft when you can just buy some high end artifact and insure it and never buy another weapon or piece of armor?

    "I don't want more things, sweetie, I want better things"
     
  9. Uh, yeah, you can do that, until your crafter reaches, what, 70 skill, then only one BOD every 6 hours? So you are going to have an account with 7 crafters, 1 that will GM and 6 to run for BODs?

    So there's the reason every long time player in UO has more than one account.

    "I don't want more things, sweetie, I want better things"
     
  10. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Edina - you can get 1 BOD every 10 seconds, if the person is turning in a BOD, then requesting a new one - at any level of skill (except 0.0).

    And you can fill the iron BODs by BUYING the stuff to put in them - which is quicker than hammering out the stuff.
     
  11. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Thank you Basara! I've being reading here how people find it impossible to do bods and I have being telling my self do these people really know how to do bods?
    You dont have 5-7 crafters in the account to do them that would be insane to dedicate a whole account to them. And you dont wait for that 1 crafter to get a bod every 6 hours to get one another equally impossible thing. You do it the right way by having all youre regular characters claim junk bods once a hour over a course of a week and pick up the bods that are toss away and also buy the iron bods. Assuming you do maybe 8 times a day on 5 characters by the end of the week you will have 280 iron bods and thats a low number if youre not a bod regular.
    Then at the end of the week fill the 280 bods and turn them in by the 1 gm+ crafter you got you will receive another 280 bods take out the colors and fill in the iron bods from that and rinse and repeat. Also fill in the colors as well when you get the chance. In no time at all you will have all you need for the higher runics.
    See since the change they really fixed the bod system to make it able to get what you need. Just need to put some time to it thats it.
    I hope my post help some people who have trouble doing bods.
     
  12. Oh yes, thanks again, because this leaves SO MUCH TIME for my necro character, my mage, my tamer, my warrior, my paladin, oh and lets not forget the other characters that I play on other shards, oh and then lets not forget the 2 other accounts that I have...

    I guess if I just stick to ONE ACCOUNT, ONE GM CRAFTER, then that's a really great plan...

    280 smith BOD's and 280 tailor BOD's - that's so doable in like, a whole week when I work 40+ hours in a REAL LIFE job...

    I will just quit my RL job and sit here and do BOD's all day, that's a great plan... thanks so much for the input...

    "I don't want more things, sweetie, I want better things"
     
  13. Duh, yes, I have turned in BOD's before. I know that you can turn them in as fast as you can, duh, anyone can do that, even a character with no skill in said crafting ability...
    Every 10 seconds or whatever, any character can turn in and get more BOD's. But, if you have a character with 10 blacksmithy skill, turning in BOD's every 10 seconds, that character is only going to get iron normal BOD's in return, not Valorite Exceptional BOD's, for a start.

    Oh, yes, and its so much more economical for me to go and buy the crap to fill the iron BOD's when I have a miner and 100,000 iron ingots here so why would I waste the gold to go and buy some 10 or 15 or 20 chainmail tunics to fill a stupid BOD when I have an almost Legendary Smith to make it and fill it?

    Whatever.

    "I don't want more things, sweetie, I want better things"
     
  14. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Edina, I have 3 accounts, 2 mages and several warriors I play, and I was doing this sort of thing for three years (how long ago the BOD changes were) even when working a real job full time. It only takes about 1 minute for BOD (that's fill time _ the time to turn in later, added together), and rarely ever did more than 100 BODs a week - sometimes as few as 30. I only started doing bigger batches as part of a study to see if the bod percentages were actually correct for smiths (and I proved they were - the tailor percentages, however, are really messed up).

    If you put 1-2 hours a week into doing BODs that way, you'll still benefit (Kaiser's 10 hours of BOD obsession is a bit much, even for me, and I HOPE it was menat as a best-case scenario).
     
  15. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Are you being Purposefully confrontational? we've told you repeatedly to turn them in with your highest smith. Get all the BODs together, turn them in at about 1 per 10 seconds WITH YOUR BEST SMITH. Why do you only quote HALF of what we suggest, then act like we're talking nonsense?

    Let's see - because if you DO start filling iron BODs with those ingots, you will be OUT of ingots in about 1000 iron BODs. I can't supply my smith with my OWN miner digging for 4-8 hours a week- the BODs eat up ingots faster than I could ever hope to mine. And have you priced ingots at the NPCs, lately? When there isn't an event-related reset (like with what occurred when Luna was invaded by that exploding villain), ingot prices skyrocket. Typically, 2-3 weeks after a vendor reset, ingot prices are into the 20s in Luna.

    And it takes 3-5 times LONGER to make the tunics than to buy them (depending on how many you are buying/making).

    You're not looking for advice - you're looking to build straw man arguments.
     
  16. Oh Good Lord,

    My original points were:

    A. its not fair that you spend so much time and energy to GM, elder or legendary a crafting skill and only get 1 BOD per 6 hours

    B. that you have to dedicate other characters to go to do BOD RUNNING to get more BODS to supply your main CRAFTER to turn in BODS in the hopes of getting the better BODS when characters with little skill (30 I think is the minimum to get a BOD?) can get BOD's every hour when a GM crafter can only get 1 BOD every 6 hours, tying up your other character slots and their skills

    C. that working off the point of B, that if you only had one crafter, and could only get 4 BOD's in 24 hours, and by my calculations with tailoring BODS, that 16% are going to be the high end BODS that aren't normal cloth BODS, that there is a severe imbalance regarding BODS.

    The original thread was started by saying that BODS need major reworking. I totally agree with this and was only giving my opinions/thoughts/experiences to this end that I ALSO AGREE that BODS NEED TO BE REWORKED.

    I said nothing about turning in BODS every 10 seconds and so on and such and such. I know you can turn in BODS every 10 seconds with any character be it one with 30 skill or 120 skill in said BOD crafting ability and get another BOD right away. I just said that after 6 months, I haven't even seen a valorite BOD for my smith.

    That's all...

    "I don't want more things, sweetie, I want better things"
     
  17. Gwendar-SP

    Gwendar-SP Guest

    not sure why you consider bronze hammers and powder a large bod item. both can be gotten now with smalls.

    I put in a suggestion to EA a while back to make the timer 6 hours for all as a way to slow down the abuse from folks using the free trial accounts. Getting one every hour is a bit outdated after they made it so one could get a new deed for each one you turned in.

    If any think that smalls are a pain, think about Siege where ALL iron comes from mining, smelting junk, and monsters.
     
  18. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
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    I agree, I have 2 accounts, but i'll be damned if I have to make a zillion "runners" just to one day fill a rare LGBOD.....I have had a legendary smith and tailor for years, and saddly only owned 3 barbed kits, a gold hammer and a val hammer, in six years.

    Heartwood, that's a sham.....dev who created it outta be slapped silly.

    I'm all for your idea.
     
  19. Radun

    Radun Guest

    there's nothing wrong with the bod system. val hammers are *supposed* to be so rare that the vast majority of players will never get one.

    the system was *designed* so that only one val hammer should be spawned per year per shard.

    It's like saying "I've been playing the lottery for 30 years and I still haven't won the jackpot."
     
  20. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    I'd go for that... like val hammer 800k, and break everything down from there.

    Crap 10 items =20 points, 15 = 40, 20 =60. Exc dbls the points.
    Color scales it.
    Iron = 1
    Dull = 2
    Shadow =5
    Copper = 10
    Bronze = 18
    Gold = 60
    Aggy = 150
    Verite = 350
    Val = 800
    LBODs should give you the points of all the small ones times 3. Like if a 20exc val plate SBOD gave you (60 (points for 20) * 800 (for val)* 6 smalls *3 = 864,000.
     
  21. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    And actually... Those kits you've gotten make you seem lucky from some people's point of view.
     
  22. Setnaffa

    Setnaffa Certifiable
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    We've proposed Point systems in the past. I think the first time I proposed it was three years ago.

    To the people complaining about the rarity of the Valorite BODs - with a Legendary Smith, I average about 1 Val BOD for every 125 BODs. Of course only 7 out of the 94 possible Val BODS are good for the Val Hammer, so it takes around 1,700 BODs to get one for the Val Hammer. That's not insurmountable. It shouldn't be easy and it isn't.
     
  23. mmmbeer

    mmmbeer Guest

    the one/yr per shard is a load of crap!! ridicioulously difficult to get!! i been doing bods for 6 years and have yet to even see a val hammer sbod much less the single val hammer lbod. utterly STUPID to be so rare that the vast majority of players will never get one. its a freakin game...everyone should have a decent shot at one sometime or another.
     
  24. Radun

    Radun Guest

    I guess you think everyone should be running around with the best possible equipment in the game, with nothing to work towards.
     
  25. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I tried the BOD game ages ago when it came out... I faithfully gathered my BODs day in day out as often as I could got up early before work to get bods gathered them again the min I got home and again just before bed.. On all 5 crafters that I had every day non-stop for months and month..... I never got hardly a colored ore bod and certainly NEVER a valorite! ...... And I never once got a barbed BOD..... after a few months of seeing other folk getting barbed kits, and golden hammers and such ....... I got fed up with the whole thing.... was appearent that I didn't have enough characters nor time to spend at the futile effort and so I quit.....

    Then they changed the system where if you turned in the crummy bods you could get another one right away...... well that was nice.... however I did great on Test Center but when it came time to actually get them on my own production shard...... You guessed it.... I would spend hours and hours doing BoD after BOD after BOD..... and using huge quantities of my supplies.... and for what??? Nothing.... Still never got a Good colored ore bod..... never got a good barbed bod.... After several weeks of trying and my supplies that I had gathered for months had all but dwindled out I gave up again... haven't done a bod run since.
     
  26. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    MalagAste; that is a perfect reason why it should be a point system like the spring cleaning.
     
  27. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
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    A lot of people do, that basically got that way through illegitimate means (either directly or indirectly)
     
  28. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest


    Sorry I wasnt helpful in youre situation but heres the thing and its being like this since UO First poped out. Theres a very good chance that casual players dont become rich and powerful in the game. Its based on time vs reward when it comes to Crafters, Hunters, PVP, etc. Crafters put in alot of time to get what they want. Many exclusively play uo as a crafter and dont even bother hunting or pvp or anything else so they get the most reward from crafting. So can be said about Hunters getting the most gold,arts,drops because they just hunt. And PVP Getting better more skilled on killing,fighting,etc other players cause they practice practice practice.

    Dont expect someone who plays 5-8 hours a week and craft for 1 hour to get val runic verite or anything higher than a bronze "which by the way bronze is usually attainable by high end single bods" So there as common as the copper shadow aspects.

    It takes 10 seconds per character to get bods each hour. I work on computers so I always have access to uo if i need it so am considered a powergamer and powergamers usually reap the most benefit. Sure i take a break from uo when need be we all have lives well most of us do anyway.

    Here is a example once one very bad week I claimed bods for 2 accounts every hour on the hour 7 days for at least 16 times the day each "was a bad week IRL for me" thats 13 char and around 1456 bods for the week so i sat down one sunday and just crafted all day then the next day I turned them in and got my self another 1456 bods or so to fill and turn in now i thought to myself i'll never need to bod run again at least for a long while and its true I wont need to do any bod running untill I fill all the 1456 bods I get everytime I turn it in irons,dull,everything up to bronze ingots. Gold and up i save to fill in one day as those ingots are much harder to come by. Oh by the way this was smithing cause I also collected 1456 bods of tailor as well to make another day.

    So in essence things shouldnt be able to be made that someone who plays uo for maybe 5-10 hours a week is able to easily aquire val runics barbed runics etc. Like someone who powergames UO cause they put so much time in it. Yes its aquirable for that 10hour player but its extremly harder for him or her than a 20+hour player or a dedicated Bod filler which by the way is different than a true blacksmith.
     
  29. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Man you must have had a extremly bad run on the RNG. Hell the first time bods came out I received a val large platemail of course thats gone as soon as my house fell long ago but thats another story. But now we must consider the new system and forget the old impossible system.

    Now remmebr you just said you had 5 crafters that is limiting you to maybe 2 bods for each crafter a day so 10 bods a day 70 bods a week which is pretty high if you do continue to collect 2 bods a day for 7 days. Thats where the RNG kills you. Make 1 crafter and the others runners so you can have the maximun of 98 a day if you actually stay up 24 hours which is very unlikly but at least you have the option to make a week of it which gives you the option of having 686 bods by the end of the week which in reality will be less than half that cause Real life but even at that number its much better than just 70 bods a week max.
    Now I understand people dont have the time thats where buying massive Iron bods come in from bod sellers you will only need to do it once and then you have enough to bod swap for a few weeks-months.
     
  30. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    I haven't built up that many... only a few hundred have been enough for me.

    Basically, once I have about 200-300 "junk" (non large combinable) deeds, I'll do the following:

    - Separate out deeds that will yeild a Powder reward and do them in a group.

    - Fill the Exceptional Iron BODs via crafting (Iron ingots gained either through mining or through killing lower end mobs in PvM (i.e. solen infiltrators) and collecting "junk" metal "magic items" to be resmelted).

    - Fill NORMAL armor/shield BODs the same way as exceptional to save on gold

    - Buy the weapons for the Normal BODs from the NPCs

    - Turn in deeds in a batch. Separate out the combinable deeds, then the Powder deeds, then the "junk" deeds and repeat until I have run out of "seed" deeds. Then I'll go through the combinables and see what Larges I can fill and do those in a batch.

    Then build up another couple hundred deeds and do it again.

    The current system makes it FAR more reasonable to use a single crafter once you have a good batch of "seed" junk deeds to work with.
     
  31. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    That's exactly right..... as if it isn't I'm not gonna waste what little gametime I have to spend on gathering bods doing it.

    One thought I had was that I would like to see a way to make the BOD system give back to the communities..... not only a personal BOD point system but a point system for guilds... (I know some folk would try to abuse this but I think it should be limited to a one per account sort of point system so you don't have 7 characters on one account having all them in a guild to earn points... I know that's rather complicated but I think that if there was a reward style system inplace where you got rewards based on points and you could work up points it would be really nice to encourage guilds to participate together.... also along that line I think special things shardwide for participation could also be added... like the tier system where if your shard reaches a certain "tier" then that triggers something good to happen perhaps when you reach a certain tier then different resources become slightly easier to find... like the gems, pearls, and things... or maybe crimsons drop a bit more often for a short period of time.) Just little bonus's that the shard and or guilds can get for working together as a community turning in BOD's and things.....
     
  32. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    I agree whith Setnaffa Val hammers are the hardest to get like its suppose to but defenitly extremly doable especially now. The one/yr per shard was before the changes now its more like 1 month per power gamer, 2 month for semi- powergamer,4 month for above average player,8 month average player etc.. assuming bods is what you do most of youre uo time if not then just add in the time you miss claimimg bods or buying them or turning them in.

    Hell I wouldnt be surprise a super powergamer cant get a val hammer in 1-2 weeks they usually have like 5+accounts and plenty of time in there hands, usually because there retired from working or they are vacation from school or unemployed or work at home or anyother reason.
     
  33. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest


    I understand what you're saying but that is trying to put everyone even in one category which clearly everyone is different some have more dedication than others and those will be rewarded more.
    Which also make hunters making crafters just for the easier pickings of items I never like to force playstyle on anybody else in any way. I sure wont force warriors,pvps and others into botanical keeping like me.
    Plus sadly community disappeared long ago with it being rare. as well as me and many others are solo players and uo was meant to cater to many playstyles solo,group,crafters,pvp,etc. This is what makes uo uo still.

    I don't believe in that everyone should have everything the same thats no one can be better or worse than the other person everyone has to be robots identical with items,names and looks that would destroy any game. If you want something you have to work for it in this case play for it. Harder you play the better you become the more you will have. Compare that to the other person who walks around hunts 30 min against ogre's,harpies and calls it a day. No that person shouldn't have the same as a peerless hunter who hunt 4-6 hours or a bod filler who fills endlessly or another hunter who hunts ogre and harpies 10 hours that day.
     
  34. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    There Dermott you get it you know how to do bods and may I say efficiently economical to waste the least gold though It does take more time but in order to save gold it usually will take more steps.
     
  35. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    I'd prefer Large BODS to guarantee a chance at either a Colored Small or Large Bod after turn in. (Scaled to give more Smalls than Larges)

    Say you turn in a Iron LBOD, you either get a DC or Better Small or Large in return.

    Now as a Kicker to this.

    If you turn in say a Bronze Large Your guaranteed a Gold or Better Small or Large! It always has to be at least one Color Higher that you received.

    Valorite Larges would always give a Valorite Large!

    Turning in Small Bods would keep the system that is already in place.
     
  36. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest


    Sounds like a workable solution though theres one big problem whith it. Whith the shear number of iron bods dull bods lower ended bods most have in there collection getting val bods and in turn val hammers will be as easy as getting copper dull hammers. So whithin a month val hammers will cost 100k each
     
  37. Nexus

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    The upgrade only happens with Larges. I know a lot of folks toss the larges of DC and Iron because the reward (POF) for a lot of these BODS out weighs the usefulness of the Larges.
     
  38. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    True alot do toss out large of dulls and iron but some and it only takes a few people myself included have every single large iron dull ever collected still in books just to hold the excess smalls just because it gives you a little rush when you fill a large of any bod. Its weird I know but that little rush is exciting.

    Which equated to even if 3-10 people do the same i do in the whole shard then that means a overflooded market of val hammers that non have ever seen before
     
  39. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Hey, Dermott...

    I've been doing that for quite a while, and guess what?

    That method (or my description of it) is now a major part of the Smith skill FAQ.

    Maybe some people can learn from it.