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Bola vs Dismount

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Arcades, Aug 3, 2014.

  1. Arcades

    Arcades Sage
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    Sad to see that thread locked, it was rather humorous but lets explore this further.

    First and foremost, I think the real discussion behind all this is consumables vs skills...and the obvious choice should be that consumable items cannot be better than their skill-related counterparts. That's the bottom line regarding bolas...does anyone object to this line of thought?

    Revan's argument regarding bola's requiring "mana" to use the item effectively I think is totally mute. What part of swinging a bola and targeting "requires" mana? Teleporting afterwards to maintain range is a tactic that is "used" but certainly not required.

    Scenario:
    Lets take a regular mage (non-parry), typically runs 120-150 mana, teleport spell takes 9 mana (6 mana with 40 LMC and 5 mana with 55 LMC). That's 10% (or less) of your mana used for dismount (2 teles)...which is what you're saying is "required" to use your bola. Now take 35 mana for a weapon special dismount, even if you have 300 wep skill for argument's sake, that's 25 mana total. @40 LMC = 10 mana, @55 LMC = 13 mana.
    Since you're saying most dexer/archers run close to 100 mana, that's 13% mana cost to dismount using a skill...and its not even 100% chance. Looking at these rough estimates and using your argument, how can you justify a consumable costing less mana (%) than a skill and also gives a 100% chance to dismount???
     
  2. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    You have to be more specific though. Even though everyone else is on the same page and understands when everyone is talking that bolas don't "miss", he starts talking about dodging them and line of site issues which has nothing to do with the item hitting or missing. You can do the same thing to a dexer trying to dismount merely by jumping off your mount before they jump off theirs rendering the special useless since the target will already be on foot.

    Even though everyone has made it clear they are saying when you see the bola animation coming at you, it hits 100% of the time. Where as when you see a bolt animation there is still only a 50/50 chance assuming you have all the same skills(120 vs 120)/hci/dci etc not even taking parry into account. Watch him avoid this part like always and talk about line of site etc things that have nothing to do that when both animations are going, bolas hit 100% of the time where as bolts/cyclones/ any other weapon does not.
     
  3. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    The argument uses the bola's Cons: (*) marks new changes

    +Delay. the difficulty (or lack of) that it takes to dismount yourself to avoid the bola dismounting you instead, even though you could do the same thing to avoid a dexers dismount as well it's just harder in some instances, since you don't get a warning message that a dexers-dismount is coming.
    (+/-) the only Templates that use bolas (a Mage mage (meaning a mage without weapon skills) lol). Not limited to this, but it's a point (I guess).
    *+ bolas becoming blockable via parry skill. (pub 86) well guess what? Over the last few years Parry has become more useful on a mage than it has on a dexer in pvp.
    *+ can miss (Pub 86), equal to that of a dexers chance to miss. 50% chance to hit with 0 skill, (HCI vs DCI) is the main deciding factor of the bola hitting or missing.
    + remount timer, (for the bola user) starting when you target with the bola instead of when it actually dismounts someone. (this is the only "good" point made in defense of bolas, IMO).

    Vs Dexer Cons: (*) marks new changes

    + skill requirement for weapon-based dismounts (tactics 90+ & weapon skill 90+).
    + can miss. (with all weapon based damage, not just dismount)
    + mana cost / *+ increased by 75% + subject to double mana cost on top of that if you use multiple specials in quick succession. (often require for melee to dismount someone)
    + can't stack dismount with other attacks. (because this is not a consumable)
    + Can be avoided by dismounting yourself when being hit by dismount/limited to attack speed/s.


    You can't assume every person is riding a non-ethy mount or isn't playing a gargoyle, so dismounting yourself to avoid being dismounted isn't always a good idea, especially under these circumstances.

    Dexers always had a chance to miss, and their ability to land timed interrupts (vs mages) is limited to their attack speed + RNG of landing a hit, thus making it much easier for a mage to get teleport off (after being dismount).

    Not every dexer has 210 stamina, archery/throwing, 100 mana, & 55 lmc.

    They don't, but, If you want to go by that logic, then bolas would require Tinkering to use. :D

    Alchemy does give you an additional bonus to Potions btw, It's your choice to have alchemy for that bonus or not, Just as it's your choice to use a bola to dismount instead of having tactics & a weapon skill.
     
  4. Gedgerez Tesherd

    Gedgerez Tesherd Journeyman

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    My form of logic would of included making bolas an equip able weapon, & requiring Wrestling skill to pair with 70 tactics primary special & 90 tactics secondary special just as the other weapon classes already in use. Then the bola weapon could also have mods attached to them, as well as spawn as corpse loot. Different types of bola weapons that hit for designated special attacks on the attacks index.
     
  5. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    I think that's a bit much. So you want bolas that can paralyze, or poison targets? Lets just keep them pretty close to how they are right now.
     
  6. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran

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    Ok, if a bola takes two teleports at 6 mana a piece (most mages don't run 55 lmc, and if they do, it's with a trade off) that's 12 mana. Even with 55 lmc it's 10 mana. An archer with 55 lmc (let's be real, all smart archers are running 55 lmc these days) will take 13 mana to dismount someone. Is that fair? YES. Doing something as an Archer is SUPPOSED to be at a higher cost to their mana. *Archers are not supposed to have equal mana with mages*. They do damage EVEN WHEN THEY'RE NOT USING SPECIALS (and these days a lot of it). 20+ dmg base hits with another 10-20 from a hit effect? Then to top it off, they can heal with bandages while they're still doing damage? Mages ONLY damage with mana. That's why mana is supposed to come easier to mages. It's why it used to be that mages had meditation with medable suits, where as Dexxers had nothing nearly as good. Dexxers/Archers are SUPPOSED to have a limited supply of mana because to them, IT'S JUST A BONUS. And yet STILL in todays game, Mages have a harder time managing their mana these days than non-mages do. It's crazy.

    But is that 3 mana and the fact that bola's don't miss a fair trade off? YES. Because again, it CAN miss, if someone lines of sight them, or runs off screen. YES, it does happen ALL the time. Why is that irrelevant now? When you look at the big picture, and at how effective something is, you look at the chance of it actually working; And as it stands, Bolas miss about as often as an Archer do. Who cares HOW it happens? And that's completely besides the fact that ARCHERS CAN REMOUNT INSTANTLY AFTER MISSING. BOLA'ERS ARE STILL ON A TIMER EVEN WHEN THEY MISS. And YES that bola'er being on a dismount timer, EVEN WHEN THEY MISS (Which again, IS relevant, because it DOES happen often) is a fair enough trade off for Archer dismounts costing 3 more mana and sometimes missing.
     
    #6 Revan123, Sep 2, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2014
  7. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran

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    Dodging and Line of Site is a CRITICAL ASPECT TO BOLA'ING. It's not some legend that happens once in a while (unless you really suck). IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME! It is not something you can simply dismiss in the grand equation, because it plays a major role in determining the efficiency of bolas. If bolas NEVER missed, even when someone got off screen, or line of sighted the bola'er, then YES, BOLAS *WOULD* BE OVERPOWERED. But THE FACT IS, *THEY DO MISS* and ALL OF THE TIME BECAUSE PEOPLE DODGE THEM. You can even summon a wall of stone to line of sight, or hide/cast invis/use invis jewelery. But Bola's are NOT OVERPOWERED, because you CAN IN FACT, MISS WITH A BOLA. I don't mean miss as in RNG, I mean miss as in a dodge. Bola's can be dodged. And actually, it happens about as often as Archers miss, EXCEPT WITH A BOLA, YOU CAN'T REMOUNT INSTANTLY WHEN YOU DO MISS.

    As for your argument about jumping off your mount, that is NOT the same thing at all as dodging a bola by running off screen, or line of sighting the bola'er. Why? Because you can also jump off your horsey when someone throws a bola too. And oh wait, it's even MORE effective against Bolas, because you can time the bola hit. You can't time when someone is going to jump off their mount and try to dismount you with a bow. Not only that, but even if the Archer/Dexxer doesn't dismount you, they will still do damage with their weapon. Now I know you aren't going to get that point, because you've yet to get a single point so far, so let me break it down for you:

    1. Archer Missing = Person offscreening/Line of Sighting Bola'er [result: Balanced]
    2. Jumping off Mount to avoid bola >= jumping off mount to avoid dexxer/archer (why? Bola's can be timed, dexxer's/archer's cannot. Also, The hit from the dexxer/archer will still do damage even if they don't dismount, which the bola missing will not) [result: Archer/Dexxer dismounts better than, or at least equal to bolas]
    3. Archer/Dexxer Missing and remounting instantly > Bola'er missing and being on a timer [result: Archer/Dexxer dismounts better]
    4. Bola's without casting teleport = useless unless fighting noobs [result: balanced]
    5. Bola'ing Mages teleporting twice >= mana cost to use dismount ability [result: Bola's better than or equal to Archer/Dexxer dismounts]

    I can't break it down for you any simpler than that.
    As it stands, ANY GOOD GUILD would much rather have a good Archer/Thrower dismounting than a Mage Bola'ing. If you don't agree that Archer dismounts are simply better than Bola's you need to to terminate your account. This is not the game for you.
     
    #7 Revan123, Sep 2, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2014
  8. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    No bola's do not miss.

    We are talking about when you see the animation.

    When you see a bola coming at you you ARE going to be hit with it, it does NOT miss.

    When you see a bolt coming at you it can miss.

    This is what everyone in the thread and the previous one has been talking about. For whatever reason even though its a fact you claim its not. Its weird because you have the most invalid point ever since you can dodge dismounts for dexers etc.
     
  9. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    No bola's do not miss. When you see it coming at you in mid air it hits 100% of the time. When you see a bolt coming at you it does not hit 100% of the time. Sorry that you're wrong. When the patch comes in then this statement will be different until then for the first 17 years of UO this is how it is.

    You can dodge both plain and simple. However as it has been covered over and over again when you see the bola animation you are 100% going to be hit. With a bolt that's not the case. If I need to break it down for you, you're even worse at pvp than I thought.

    We have all been saying that dexers are better, no one has argued that. In fact if it's that good you should pick up a fighting skill and stop crying about bolas. What you keep ignoring is that boals take no mana to use [double click a bola and throw it, watch your mana it takes no mana- breaking this down for you]. It takes skill points to use where as you need a figthing skill and tactics to use with any weapon. In fact we have all said that it should be better if its taking a lot of your allocated skill points.

    Why are you pointing out that dexers hitting someone will do damage, that's pretty obvious. Hey this just in, mages that cast on people will do damage. Why you bring that up when we're talking about dismounting makes no sense. You can never stay on topic and also choose to ignore certain facts.

    It's still a dismount that you can use for NO mana and no skill points.

    Stop your whining. It's not going to change and you haven't made a good point at all.
     
  10. Peekay

    Peekay Slightly Crazed

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    Being a pvper for over a decade and using bolas since their introduction into the game, I can say with quite a bit of confidence that bolas are fairly easy to avoid. They are a little harder in open field with little to dodge around when you're going to be bolad by someone who knows what they are doing. However not impossible and they wont hit 100% of the time due to awareness of the person being bolad. (By this I mean, if you hinder the line of sight between yourself and the bola monkey, then they will receive the message "Target cannot be seen!" and their bola will not throw. ONCE it is THROWN (Four seconds AFTER selecting the target, NOT when the person is targeted, It will hit.)

    Here are some key things to watch out for:
    1. Players on foot. If someone has been chasing you for awhile and you know they are always on a mount, and suddenly they're on foot, then assume that they have a bola prepped.
    1A. This can be countered by being aware of this person, which I agree can be more difficult for some, and cutting back a different direction. (When you're being chased by a large group, the quickest way to lose them is to be unpredictable and change directions)
    2. Seeing the message popup on the lower left hand corner of your screen. This typically means a stealther or someone hidden just prepped a bola.
    2A. This is a little bit harder to avoid but essentially the safest way to do it is to again, change directions or even pull a complete 180. Even if you have people following you, rarely will they expect you to turn and run into and past them.
    3. Someone chasing you with a sleep, lands the sleep then dismounts themselves and winds up a bola.
    3A. This is another tricky one because it depends on multiple factors, your latency, their latency, their competence, and your ability to react to the area around you and use it effectively. Generally when this happens, the mage follows up with a teleport to increase the percentage of landing the bola and unless you have 0 resisting spells the time it takes to dismount, wind the bola up, throw it, cast teleport is just barely enough time for you to stay on their screen and for the bola to hit. It's a small window to work with. Some things you can use to avoid this are, enchanted apples, spell trigger cleansing winds, cleansing winds itself if it happens to be prepped. When you don't have any of this then this is where the awareness of your immediate surroundings come into play, note that this is probably one of the harder bola situations to escape however it is possible. Look for anything that you can use to hinder line of sight, this can be uneven Z-Axis terrain (literally every where in T2A and Dungeons), Houses, Static Objects/Establishments. Sometimes there wont be any escape, we'll get into the later.
    4. In every situation you can always do these things also. Take a gamble and straight up just teleport a random direction away (the goal is to increase the distance between you and the bola monkey). Cast invisibility on yourself, or use invisibility items (smoke bombs). If you don't ride an ethy then you can dismount yourself and then remount a couple seconds later, try to do this as late as possible to minimize the amount of time you're off your mount, be prepared for your mount to be poisoned or CCed in some way though and act accordingly. If there is no immediate items to hinder line of sight then Wall of Stone is often your best bet, just understand how it works in order to maximize it's potential, for example when you cast it and target yourself, it will land on the ground facing West/East, that means you want to use it and adjust to put the bola monkey on either the west, or east end of you in order to maximize the effectiveness of the wall.
    4A. Exceptionally "fast" players sometimes don't have much issue with being slept, bolad. Not because the spell "doesn't last as long" (It lasts the same amount of time for everything, depending on their Magic Resist and the caster's Focus skill) it's because their ability to move faster after the sleep wears off drastically decreases that already small window of time I mentioned earlier.
    5. Watch people's hands. If you run on to screen and there is someone who normally a weapon in their hand on foot. There is a good chance they have a bola prepped, If they have a weapon in their hand and it disappears, then they just threw it.

    Here are some things that I think about when I go to bola someone.
    1. How do they react to sleep/debuffs? Do they "reactively" use an enchanted apple instantly?
    1A. If this is the case, then you can bait out their enchanted apple and time it. Some things that people "reactively" apple are, Curse, Spell Plague, Sleep, Blood Oath, Omen. You can also utilize paralyze to determine if they have a trapped box or not.
    2. Have I bolad this person in the past, what sort of characteristics do they exhibit when being presented a bola? We'll touch on this in #3C.
    3. What kind of mount are they riding?
    3A. If they're riding an ethy, then I don't have to worry about being baited or having to control their pet.
    3B. If they have a live mount then I have to be prepared to handle control their mount in the event of them being dismounted either by themselves or via the bola.
    3C. Touching back on #2, if I have bolad this person before and they have juked my bola by dismounting themselves then typically what I will do is hold the bola and wait for them to dismount then remount and throw the bola AFTER they remount as they generally assume that I've already thrown it and whiffed (which creates a timer before we can use another bola).
    4. Do they have resist?
    4A. If they do not have resist then that makes life easier in both setting up for the bola and keeping them down after the bola.
    5. Are they a stealther?
    5A. If so and if they don't have resist, then mana vampire them during/after the bola to prevent smokebombs and animal form.
    6. What is the terrain like around me, where could they move towards in order to escape the bola? (This is typically what I think about after I bola someone)

    What should you do after you have been bolad?
    1. Continue to attempt to create distance between yourself and those attacking you.
    1A. Look for ledges/roofs to teleport onto, obstructions to teleport across such as rivers, hedges, etc. Anything that will force them to stop attacking you in order to re-catch you.
    2B. Teleport, if you get some distance on someone, especially mages who have to STOP MOVING to cast a new spell, then there is an advantage to simply max range teleporting in open field, you will cover ground faster than running on foot and it could allow you the time to mount back up (with an ethy), invis, or use a pet summoning ball to get your mount back.
    3. If you have a live mount. Expect to have to cure it before or break it from being controlled in some way shape or form before being able to mount it again.
    3A. If your pet has disappeared (but not died) it's not uncommon that it has been slept/paralyzed then turned invisible by a mage. Don't panic, it happens.

    Some fun facts to note about using bolas!
    1. Your hands are unequipped upon use of a bola (Meaning even mages should have equip last weapon macros!)
    2. You cannot immediately mount after throwing a bola, regardless of it hitting or not.
    3. A bola takes 4 seconds to hit a target after selecting the target.
    4. A bola isn't technically "thrown" until 4 seconds after the target has been selected. Meaning if you hinder their line of sight in expectation of you being selected by the bola, or dismounting yourself, then the bola MISSES (aka, it's not used as the bola monkey will receive the message that either you cannot be seen, or that there is no reason for you to be bolad."
    5. A bola is both the fastest and easiest method of forcing people to reveal their true nature, be prepared for slander and elementary grammar to be hurled in your general direction.

    Anyways, I know that I have probably overlooked quite a few aspects of bolas, this is just my own take on the art of bolaing and breaking down my thought process when engaging people with bolas. Bolas are one of the few remaining things within the game that actually have some user-developed skill behind them when it comes to effectively using them, that's not to say a noob character hidden at yew gate with a bola prepped isn't annoying or fair or takes any skill at all, just that there is a certain art to the way bolas are used (at least by me) in the open field and small gang skirmishes. It's an effective tool for capitalizing on a member who has been separated from their group and when you fight outnumbered, these small kills are often what can turn the actual fight.

    The goal of this post is just to give you an insight into my perspective as a pvper, what I have to take into consideration and react to in order to successfully land a bola as well as how I react when I am bolad and what I am looking at in the field to maintain awareness of what is going on. And to remove or create redundant this feature of the game is to take away from this intricate understanding and experience that more people than just I have taken the time to learn, you're also taking away from anyone in the future the chance to take such a unique look into the game. I mean hey it could be worse, bolas could apply DP! :p (please don't ever make that happen, and nerf poison. kthx)

    tl;dr:


    o7
     
    #10 Peekay, Sep 3, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2014
  11. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    That's completely false. When you see the bola animation it will hit 100% of the time(All for no mana and zero skill points). When you see a bolt in mid air it will not hit 100% of the time. This is what everyone has been talking about, not the ability to dodge them, since BOTH can be dodged, but both do not hit 100% of the time, only bolas.

    The rest is TL;DR.

    The easiest way to settle this is that no one has jumped on board to disagree. If the points were as stellar as some seem to think their posts were it would have got some attention by the devs or even the player base. That being said it never generated any steam and the changes are going through. Actions speak louder than words!
     
  12. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran

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    That's because, clearly you don't understand the fact that there are two different meanings for the word "miss"... You and I are talking about two different things, and somehow you fail to see the distinction between our different meanings.

    YOU are referring to the fact that there is currently no RNG involved in a bola coming at you. It hits 100% of the time WHEN YOU ARE STILL ON SCREEN. That's what *YOU* mean by "miss." But the person you are bola'ing DOESN'T ALWAYS STAY ON SCREEN. That is the trade off. That is what makes it fair. IT'S A FACT, that people being bola'd DON'T ALWAYS STAY ON SCREEN. <--- THAT'S what *I* mean by the word "miss." I'm using the word "miss" for a lack of a better term, and somehow you fail to see the distinction between our two meanings. I tried to use the term "dodge" instead, and you still didn't get it. Then for clarity's sake, I started using the terms "offscreening/line of sighting" and YOU STILL DIDN'T F**KING GET IT.

    So let me restate my point. YOU CAN STILL "MISS" IF THE PERSON OFFSCREENS/LINES OF SIGHTS YOU! EVEN- IF IT STILL "HITS" 100% OF THE TIME, IN THE SENSE THAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO.

    That's what I mean by "miss." Did you get it? Did you finally get it? Or do I have to explain it another million times lol.

    As for your final point, you can't line of sight an arrow, or a sword like you could a bola. Why? THERE'S NO PAUSE TIME. You can ONLY line of sight the person BEFORE they even attempt to dismount you. You can't line of sight them when they have already made their swing/shot. But you can do the same thing to a bola'er! YES, You can actually line of sight a bola'er even before they begin swinging the bola. But would you? No, because at that point you don't know when they are going to try to dismount you. Same thing with a weapon. You won't know when they are going to try to dismount you until they've already missed. So why is a bola worse? Once they drop off their mount and attempt to dismount you with a bola YOU STILL HAVE TIME TO RUN. IN COMPARISON, When an Archer tries to dismount you, or when a dexxer/thrower paralyzes you before a dismount, (I'm talking about when they are already swinging, because again, you don't know when they are going to dismount until they do, unless they've already tried) YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO RUN. You can only hope that they miss their swing. THAT'S THE TRADEOFF. YOU HAVE TIME TO RUN FROM A BOLA, YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO RUN FROM AN ARROW. THAT'S WHY IT'S BALANCED. THAT'S WHY IT'S FAIR. <- End of f**king argument. TY. Or do I have to explain something else that should be common f**king sense?
     
    #12 Revan123, Sep 3, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2014
  13. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran

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    Ok, when you argue that Bola's should be nerfed because they are better *in some regards,* then you are arguing balance. I was not avoiding facts or spewing nonsense, because my whole argument was effectively about balance. Which is exactly why I broke it down and was talking about the individual trade offs. Hence, why I mentioned damage with weapons, which you seem to think is an irrelevant fact.

    Well, if that's the case, and we should nerf bola's because they are better than weapons in some regards (such as them not costing mana) then I also want weapons to be nerfed, and bolas to be buffed to have the advantages that weapons have. To make it balanced of course... First off, I want bola's to do the same damage as a weapon (even when they miss). You'll see how irrelevant a weapon's damage hitting on a dismount is, when a bola hits you for 25+ damage, even when it misses. Also, I want weapon-user's dismount to disarm them shortly. And last but not least, every single time a person goes on foot to dismount with a weapon, I first want a message that tells me that they are going to dismount me, and gives me a few seconds to run, and then to top it off, I want them to be on a dismount timer from the moment that message appears, even if they miss. Fair?

    ^ This is what you are currently doing to bolas.
     
  14. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran

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    To sum up this guys post, there is almost ALWAYS something you can do to avoid a bola. Why? THERE IS A DELAY. Things you can do when someone tries to bola you:

    1. Run offscreen. This means simply put, running straight and getting out of range.
    2. Run to line of sight. This includes running around a house or something in the environment. You can even summon a wall of stone if you are a mage.
    3. Hide to line of sight. This includes hiding/casting invisibility/using invis jewelery.
    4. Dismount yourself. Much more effective against bolas because bolas HAVE A DELAY, and you can actually time it. Also, a bola won't do damage when it hits. (at least not like a weapon would).

    All four of these examples are things that you can do to avoid a bola, and again, possible because there is a DELAY to using a bola. From the moment someone gets on foot and uses a bola, you know they are going to try to dismount you, and you STILL have time to run. There is no element of surprise. When someone goes on foot with a weapon, YOU HAVE NO WARNING, NO TIME TO RUN. You can only try to anticipate it by looking at what weapon they have on, and even then, you still don't know exactly WHEN they are going to do it. With a bola, you know the exact time. Bola's are NOT overpowered because they are actually easy to avoid if you know what to do in each situation. For a skilled player, they are MUCH easier to avoid than an archer dismount.
     
    #14 Revan123, Sep 3, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2014
  15. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran

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    At the end of the day, Weapon dismounts are simply better, DESPITE misses and the fact that it costs mana. Why? Because when they dismount themselves to dismount you, the shot is instant. There is no delay, no pause to give you time to run from them, and no warning message; and when they miss, they can STILL remount instantly because there is no timer for missing. Yes, they cost mana, and sometimes miss, but they are STILL harder to avoid. You want to talk about skilled pvp "Speaking the Truth"? Well you must be a terrible pvper. Because ANY smart pvper would much rather have an archer dismounting in their group than someone trying to bola.
     
  16. Peekay

    Peekay Slightly Crazed

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    Both avoiding and using bolas is a very proactive method of gameplay. And other than players actually using a mouse and keyboard and manually controlling their characters, it's pretty much the last proactive method of gameplay available within the confines of PvP. In it's current state it only allows for players to better themselves and become more aware of their surroundings within the game and enhancing their own gameplay. Converting bolas to be RNG essentially condemns the use of them given that the person using a bola is putting themselves in just as much risk as the person they are bolaing, if the bola is successful, and still being at risk if it unsuccessful.

    Bolas aren't the "I WIN" button of UO, they are very much a double edged sword in which it's use needs to be exercised carefully.
     
  17. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    This is the part that's embarrassing for you. The bola animation does not show up UNLESS IT'S ACTUALLY HITTING THE PERSON. Thus when you SEE the bola coming at you, you can't not dodge it, its in mid air and will hit you. Let me break this down for you again, slowly. When you SEE the actual bola coming at you, it will hit 100% of the time. Again when it has been thrown and you SEE it coming at you, it will hit every, single, time.

    This is what everyone has been talking about the whole time. The entire time. Where as when you a bolt animation for example [you know where it's coming at you] it does not hit 100% of the time.

    You can't dodge a bola when you see it coming at your character it will hit every time. If you line of sight or off screen you don't see the animation. Do you get it yet?

    When you see it flying in the air it will not miss.

    No for some reason you keep thinking I don't know what you mean. Both can be dodged and off screen'd. So that brings nothing to the table for this conversation. Also it still is done for for no skill points, and no mana, with a longer range than any special until changes go in.

    I keep getting private messages about how you must have zero intelligence to just ignore these facts and not admit you're wrong. Everyone this entire time is saying when the bola is physically coming at the person it doesn't miss. YOU keep talking about the delay time when it is not actually coming at your character when you see the animation. That's what we have all been talking about in this thread at the last, when you see it coming at your character it does not miss. Do you get it yet? When you see it flying in the air at a target it hits 100% of the time. Still not get it?

    Just to prove that I'm right you can test it. Log on any shard that's not test as we're talking about what is currently in on all the real shards. Have a character sitting on a mount, throw a bola and just wait. Do this 100 times and tell me how many times it hits with both characters just sitting there. Then do it with any fighting skill you want 100 times and there will be at least once miss.

    As you can see though you don't have a good argument as to why it should be for no skill no mana etc and that's probably why its being changed. Hopefully you can be on the same page as everyone else FINALLY. It's amazing that I had to explain it this many times for you to still not get it.
     
  18. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    shouldnt bolas just be subject to hci? its not hard to fit in a suit with the gear we have these days.
     
    CovenantX likes this.
  19. Peekay

    Peekay Slightly Crazed

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    You have four seconds to be aware of a bola, and avoid it. It's really not that hard. There is no dishonor in dodging around a building or running offscreen when you know a bola is coming, just to avoid it. And then you can either kill the person stuck on foot who attempted to bola you, or just use the fact that they're on foot and their friends aren't as a means of separating their group a bit.

    Sure, I mean I feel that this game really just needs to be dumbed down that much further also.

    Also while we're at it, let's make a special rule for heavy xbows and any dismount melee weapon that toggles the dismount OFF once you remount. Preventing the instant swing with dismount special when running up and dismounting yourself, aka prepping dismount ability by getting off your mount, activating it then getting back on your mount. It only seems fair given that dismount special abilities associated with weapons can swing to hit instantly (Unlike a bola where it's swing, target, wait four seconds, throw.)
     
  20. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran

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    Way to tunnel vision in on one aspect and NOT look at the big picture. I'm going to explain this as briefly as possible, and my only chance of enlightening you is if you simply didn't get the point because I typed too much and you ignored it.

    Bolas have a delay. You can not simply TUNNEL VISION on the fact that when you see the bola animation it will always hit; because for that to happen, for that to be "balanced" it needs trade offs. The bola delay is that trade off. You cannot COMPLETELY NEGATE THAT FACT THAT BOLAS HAVE A DELAY. It's relevant. If you don't agree, than I demand that Archer/Dexxer/Thrower dismounts also be given a delay of what? 4 seconds? If not, why don't you test it. Why don't you try dismounting someone with a weapon, but before you do every single time, pause for 4 seconds and give them time to run, that way you SEE THE F**KING TRADE OFF.

    If that doesn't convince you, then please tell me what shards you play, and who your characters are. I will transfer an archer and we can 1v1, and I will dismount you with ease and slay you over and over until you f**king get it. You can not do the same to me with bolas. Not in a million years.
     
    #20 Revan123, Sep 7, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014
  21. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran

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    No, because if you have to get 45 hci on your suit just to have a 50/50 chance of bola'ing the person, and that's assuming you can even stay on screen and keep them in your line of sight, it will not be worth it. Bola's will be useless.
     
  22. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    That's pretty much what it's being changed to.
     
  23. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    seems useful to me since it still doesnt require any skill points.
     
  24. Speaking the Truth

    Speaking the Truth Lore Keeper
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    Can you tell me why you keep ignoring the ONLY thing I've been pointing out this entire time which is the following two facts. One I've always said if you want to dismount so bad, then get a skill.

    The second point I have said over and over and over and you keep ignoring it is that BOLAS when throwing and you see the animation DO NOT MISS. Any melee weapon on the other hand does miss.

    If you want to dismount for no skill or no mana that's your trade off.

    I think bolas are a joke in pvp and I have no trouble dodging them. That doesn't change the fact that when thrown (Where you see it coming at you) it does NOT miss. The point everyone was making for two threads and you have yet to address that.

    I'm not sure why you keep talking about special dismounts when I said they should be "better" since they take skill points and mana.

    Your lack of intelligence and your ability to avoid the points I'm making every single time is amazing. You have some how ignored that fact every single time. Its impressive really. Like I said your argument is terrible. There is a reason the change is going on and that's because clearly having a consumable that has the same effect as a special needed to be changed in their eyes. Sorry you didn't generate any steam since you had a terrible argument every time. The best part is I've said from the get go if its that good that you should pick up a skill, so now you're making my argument FOR me.
     
  25. Peekay

    Peekay Slightly Crazed

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    Here is the flaw in your logic.

    A bola can only be used every 10 seconds (After successfully targeting a valid opponent to bola) Regardless of whether or not it lands (IE: The person breaking line of sight and in any way hindering the bola whatsoever, which can be reviewed in my previous posts).
    A thrower can dismount people every 1.25 seconds.
    An archer can dismount people every 1.25-1.5 seconds.
    A melee dexxer can dismount people every 1.25-1.75 seconds, depending on their weapon and ability to get into range of other players consecutively.

    A bola disarms the user upon activation of the item and upon selecting the target to throw it at. Reducing the effective defense ability of the user for at least 2 seconds (Which is massive in many fights vs dexxers/archers/throwers).
    A thrower needs to be disarmed to prevent them from dismounting (which they can instantly do upon dismounting themselves for a whopping ~8 mana). Which can be prevented via DCI and Weapon skill.
    An archer can... See above.
    A melee dexxer can, again see above.

    With mana regen paired with LMC and stacked Mana on suits these days, Archers, throwers, and melee dexxers can more effectively dismount people than bolas can. Even when taking into consideration DCI, Parry, Wrestle, and Bushido they have more chances to dismount a person with how often they swing/shoot their weapon than a mage swinging a bola who has to sacrifice the bulk of their defense (If they don't have wrestling, but that the same time they are still on foot).
     
  26. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran

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    Actually, dismounting with an archer is instant- not 1.25 seconds, if you just chug a refresh before you do it. But yeah, you're point stands. Btw, you might want to refrain from comparing stuff. That's too much for him to handle. He doesn't care about balance or anything. He likes to just zero in on one fact and completely ignore the big picture, or the trade offs.
     
  27. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran

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    Actually, I didn't ignore ANY of your points. You just don't understand my argument and hence you fail to see the connection. You argue and argue about balance, saying that bolas are OP because they hit ("when you see the animation") 100% of the time; and then when I break it down, compare and contrast, and point out the fact that bola's are actually not as good as other forms of dismounting, you revert back to the argument that it's a consumable and doesn't require any skill. To which I point out, and I don't ignore it, because the point I've made constantly is - WHY SHOULD DISMOUNTS BE EXCLUSIVE TO DEXXERS/ARCHER/THROWING SKILLS? That's the point that YOU actually ignore. Because that's usually when you start reverting back to arguing about balance, and going on that it doesn't take mana and hits 100% of the time ("when you see the animation"). Then I start arguing balance again, and then again you tell me that I'm ignoring the fact that it's a consumable. Every time I make a good counter point you fall back to a point that you've made already, even if I've already refuted it. You keep taking me around in this endless f**king loop of stupidity, when you really should just read my posts more carefully and try to consider my points.

    So to stick to the point, and answer the point that you keep think I'm ignoring: Yeah, it's a consumable, so the f**k what? Why does that mean it should be nerfed? Why should dismounts be exclusive to skills? And if so, why dexxers and archers only? Why isn't there a mage spell that dismounts then? Then you can say it's fair because it's tied to a skill. Bolas are fair because they allow EVERYONE to dismount. Not JUST DEXXERS, ARCHERS AND THROWERS?! That's the point that I keep making to the point that YOU keep saying I'm ignoring, and then YOU keep ignoring my point. Did you get it? or do I need to say it again? WHY SHOULD DISMOUNTS BE EXCLUSIVE TO DEXXER/ARCHERS/THROWERS?! WHY DON'T THEY TIE IT IN TO OTHER SKILLS? LIKE MAKE A MAGE SPELL THAT DISMOUNTS? And don't tell me if I don't like it I should pick up a melee skill. That's not answering the question.

    And stop being so disrespectful. I'm only calling you stupid because you keep calling or insinuating that I am first. It makes you look like a fool. There's no reason we can't have a perfectly good intellectual debate about how the game "should" be, without reverting to to the condescension.
     
    #27 Revan123, Sep 16, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2014
  28. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran

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    And btw, stop making the argument that the fact that the change going through is evidence that it makes sense. Because by that logic, EVERY change that the gms have EVER made must have made sense. including the one's they immediately undid... If you were a little self-critical and thought outside of the box at ALL you would realize the flaw in that logic. But of course you don't. You hardly try to understand what I say, and you make the first argument that comes to your mind without first examining it's credibility. Why else would the change go through? How about because the gm's and their "advisors" are mostly noobs that don't understand the complexity of UO PvP?

    Is that really so hard to fathom?
     
  29. Revan123

    Revan123 Seasoned Veteran

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    BTW, What toons do you play on what shards? I want to make a gimp 210 stam disarm archer on whatever shard you play and dismount you and kill you repeatedly. And then laugh and say that it's "balanced."