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Bot vendors

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Guest, Mar 10, 2008.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Europa seemed to miss the burning houses fun, yet I don't think our shops are clean of bot supplied items.

    I went looking for a 120 smith scroll for my smithy-in-training. So, I went looking round to see what prices were like.

    Then, a couple of minutes into my search, I stumbled upon this one:

    [​IMG]

    Oooh, a BRSK vendor. Gosh, he has been busy! And prices so cheap that you might be forgiven for suspecting that he isn't a reseller. Item count below the bag was my UOA counting the actual BRSK's in that bag. Ick.

    Can we say quack?

    Now, I can't exactly page on the NPC vendor, so how does one go about reporting these bot shops to get them checked out?

    I'm scared to ask, how many cheats are still raking it in with vendors, but I'm curious how other shards are looking now after the first torching. I'm sure our master of disaster has enough explosives to deal with a few more naughty players.

    Wenchy
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    OT: u r still in need of a 120-smith scroll?
    Might be able to help ...
     
  3. Well ... while not directly "attacking" the bot generation OF the items ...
    MIGHT be able to lay some effect on as far as the storage OF the GP received ...

    Gonna need some cooperation from the "legit" side though ...
    without it ... the "illegit" will be able to indefinately STORE the GP generated ...

    Vendors are not intended to be used as banks

    just saying ...
     
  4. Kaj

    Kaj Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

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    It's physically impossible to legally keep a stock of 30 barbed kits.
    The chance of barbed kit BOD are about 1/500. That means this person did at least 15500 bods + the bods to fill the lbods. This includes getting a bod, filling it, turning it back in. Say each bod takes 30 seconds. He spent 7750 minutes, which is 5.4 days, doing bods. And then throws 'em on a vendor for 2m, which is below market value.
    If you spent months collecting them (which it would take a normal human being), you won't dump 'em on the market for such a low price.

    Dodgy fella.
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Now, I can't exactly page on the NPC vendor, so how does one go about reporting these bot shops to get them checked out?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not to say that I know either way, but how do you know that the vendor scripted anything at all?

    You don't you're simply assuming b/c they have many bkits on their vendor that they engage in activities breaking the tos.

    There are several possible explanations, they transfered to another shard and bought them for less.

    They bought them from a scripter.

    They bought them from another player on your shard in bulk and got a cheaper rate.

    It's things like this which start witch hunts. If the Dev teams are looking into scripting then I'm sure they are aware of the players that need to be monitored.
     
  6. <blockquote><hr>

    It's physically impossible to legally keep a stock of 30 barbed kits.
    The chance of barbed kit BOD are about 1/500. That means this person did at least 15500 bods + the bods to fill the lbods. This includes getting a bod, filling it, turning it back in. Say each bod takes 30 seconds. He spent 7750 minutes, which is 5.4 days, doing bods. And then throws 'em on a vendor for 2m, which is below market value.
    If you spent months collecting them (which it would take a normal human being), you won't dump 'em on the market for such a low price.

    Dodgy fella.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Or you went around to all the Bod vendors on your shard and bought the smalls and larges for them and went back home and filled them. That would take a matter of a couple of hours....

    Not saying that this person is or isn't "guilty", just that there is a logical explanation as to how someone could do that on a regular basis.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    They bought them from a scripter.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I'm not sure that would make a very good defense.

    Perhaps some day a runic should be introduced that is simply bought from an NPC vendor - a pure gold sink.
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    They bought them from a scripter.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I'm not sure that would make a very good defense.

    Perhaps some day a runic should be introduced that is simply bought from an NPC vendor - a pure gold sink.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'm not saying it is a defense at all, but you can't accuse someone of scripting without any evidence of it.
     
  9. [​IMG]And then throws 'em on a vendor for 2m, which is below market value.

    Maybe "the old market" value ... but with recent changes to ALL runics ...
    a price drop was predicted ...

    Barbed are still "the best" kits ... but ... spined and horned, being improved ...
    well ...
    I'll skip the "market forces" intro.
     
  10. Kaj

    Kaj Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

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    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    They bought them from a scripter.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I'm not sure that would make a very good defense.

    Perhaps some day a runic should be introduced that is simply bought from an NPC vendor - a pure gold sink.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'm not saying it is a defense at all, but you can't accuse someone of scripting without any evidence of it.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Okay let me rephrase. The owner might now have scripted or duped himself.

    But he obviously did not get them by doing bods.

    So either he purchased a large quantity for an even lower price (which is odd, who would sell items way below market value?) or he scripted them himself.

    I dislike cheating and I think this should be discussed in the open, rather than saying 'well yes, there's a 0,1% of it being legit, so let's close our eyes'. The vendor owner is more than welcome to defend his side of the story. We're on a forum after all!

    Oh and once again: the vendor owner might now have done anything strictly illegal. Buying 100 barbed kits for 100m isn't illegal. Just dodgy. Though the UO ToS does mention something about not being allowed to purchase items that have obviously been generated via illegal methods.
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    You were suggesting it as a way to explain the extraordinary supply of runics ... that is what I would call "a defense".

    Now, I usually agree with the argument that we should assume innocent until proven guilty. Having earned a few barbed runics over the years, I can certainly appreciate that it's not impossible for a dedicated guild/merchant to accumulate a large number so I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. However I think the events of the past year have striped away the right of resellers to be assumed innocent. There have been way too many cases of people being caught outright fencing or engaging in willful ignorance of their sources of supply.

    edit: I do feel that players should not be the ones policing the game mechanics, that this is a matter for devs and GMs, not public interrogation ... but every now and then attention needs to be drawn to a recurring problem
     
  12. davebobbit

    davebobbit Guest

    another possible explanation (although not a likely one) could be that he got them at an idoc...

    whenever i get high value loot from an idoc i sell it cheaper than anyone else so that it sells and i dont have to keep bothering with runes/gating - but thats only cos im not a shop-keeper/trader
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I let the GMs and devs do the investigating.

    I do know how folks x shard and trade. I'm sure I'm not the first to suspect and give them the benefit of the doubt a few times because of that. Yet they're still restocking months after I first saw that vendor. Hmm. I think I remember one crafter tartly telling me the last time I mentioned said vendor, it could be legit.

    If we ran each of those kits through a machine that would declare them clean or scripted, I just wonder about the results. All clean? Aye, I can see that happening....lol. There is no way a x sharder can verify their BRSKs are legal or not. So IMO, even if the seller isn't scripting, they'd be extremely naive to even resell BRSKs in that quantity.

    So while we could argue back and forth that the vendor is run by a legit seller, I'm still pointing at those kits and asking a GM to check out their source. The source is, after all, where the cheating occurs. I still bet duck...

    Wenchy
     
  14. Just because someone sells barbed kits doesn't mean he has bots. I have a huge collection of bod on Siege. I've collected, some where given to me, some I picked up off the ground, sometimes I've bought collections from folks who got bored or were quitting, some came from IDOC. Am not sure how many horned/barbed kits I have at the moment. Since it is Siege I don't sell to the general public. I also have 8 vendors with tailor bod (priced so not bod storage)
     
  15. [​IMG] Setting the "presummed innocent" aside so blithely ... tsk!

    How about FIRST crunching the numbers a bit? hmmm?

    Basara already has a lot of the legwork done

    3. reward levels
    Tailor: EIGHTEEN LARGE BODs give a Barbed Runic. These include
    10 Barbed leather LBODs (all the Exceptional 6-parters, the exceptional 20-count 5 parters, and the normal 20-count 6-parters),
    6 Horned Leather LBODs (all the exceptional 6-parters; about as common, after the fix of the smith LBOD code typo, as a Bronze or better LBOD),
    and TWO SPINED LBODs (Exceptional 20-count 6-parters).

    Consider a Spined LBOD is many times more common than a smith LBOD (chance for a Spined LBOD about equal to the combined chance of DC, SI AND Copper LBODs, which make up the majority of Smith LBODs). And, ANY colored Tailor BOD chance, large or small, could be potentially a Barbed kit LBOD piece (2/28 Spined LBODs, 12/180 Spined smalls, 6/28 Horned LBODs, 36/180 Horned smalls, 10/28 Barbed LBODs, 58/180 Barbed smalls) - and that's assuming the worst case (which is probably wrong), that shoes fall on the Armor side of the tree. It is quite likely that they are on the "cloth" side, despite being leather types. (any hard info to confirm or deny?)
    This makes Barbed kits probably about as common as gold hammers.


    Just saying ... Basara allowed as to how there maybe errors in His pass ...

    Now ... IF you want to "strip" the presummed innocence out of consideration ... how about going with a more logical reason for it?
    like:
    why aren't there a porportional number of the other two tailor kits ?
    gonna need to "dis-allow" targeted collection OF deeds in that calculation ... not all that tough ...
    but
    to protect yourself and Others ... from mere numbers being THE conviction ... which the "illegit" could easily hide ...
    [​IMG]
    just saying ...

    Be Careful about "jumping"
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    But to play devil's advocate, how would you know where your IDOC looted kits came from? You don't. You can't tell why the ones on the floor were dropped either. Or if someone offered you a cheap deal, again you can't say for certain. This is on a shard where players can transfer in and out of, so those kits could come from anywhere. I wouldn't be nearly so suspicious on Siege, but on Europa I certainly am.

    I'm talking about a vendor that I can say has been on the go certainly for over a year now. Possibly longer. Restocked every time I pass it. I'd say we're talking about quite a few BRSKs in that time. Now he may have some legit stock, but can he account for every kit sold in the last year? I doubt it. The more he sells, the less likely it is that he is dealing with legit crafters IMHO.

    Wenchy
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Isnt one of the problems that the Barbed Kits are stupidly easy to get and generally overpowered.

    More to the point.

    UO messed up the bod system, they made it easy to script, they made it predictable to script, the made it so everyone knows what every BOD will give, and they made it so leather armour can be as good as any other armour.

    Unlike its counterpart the HEARTWOOD RUNIC SAW, which is solely random and much harder to get... though scripter friendly too. If the ever remove ELF ONLY TAG, look out wood armours.

    I get scripters... But you can judge by goods only by means. I stored up 100s of Horned kits from buying prior to the runic changes. I bet I looked like a scripter till I sold through them.

    I mean for this guy, catching the scripting characture is what is needed. Not saying oh hes always stocked.

    Now being always stocked might be reason to investigate. But you cant charge him.
     
  18. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    whether or not this guy sat for endless hours doing BOD's and accumulating the kits, if one is foolish enough to place 30 barbed kits on a vendor, he's asking for trouble.

    In this day and age, people will make allegations, regardless if it's right or wrong.
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I think he hopes that folk only think there are 2 in the bag and don't notice the item count.

    Just looks more suspicious once you realise what's in there and how it's displayed to look otherwise.

    Wenchy
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I love these crazy witch hunts lol always entertaining.

    It really is unfathomable that some players can actually spend the time to gather large amounts of things in the game without cheating isn't it...
     
  21. 4gregu

    4gregu Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    I'm not defending this vendor, 31 barbed kits is insane. But I do fill bods and run a vendor, and I can tell you the bottom has fallen out of the barbed kit market, thanks to the changes to the horned kits.

    Before the changes, I was selling barbed kits at 3 mil per, and horned at 90k per. The horned would stay on the vendor for weeks, while the barbed would be gone in a day. Now? Barbed kits are selling at a snails pace at 2 mil per across the shard, and horned kits are flying off the vendor at 400k per.

    And the barbed kits are not done falling. I predict 1.5 per will be the stabalizing price.
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    It really is unfathomable that some players can actually spend the time to gather large amounts of things in the game without cheating isn't it...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    LOL, yeah nobody's cheating, they're just incredibly dedicated. Bless their wee hearts.

    I suppose the burnt out houses on Luna belonged to dedicated crafters too.

    I'm sure the vendor will appreciate your support.

    Wenchy
     
  23. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I didn't think Doomsday's post was supporting this vendor in particular, or any ill-gotten goods.

    It just seems that anytime someone finds a stock of something desirable, it is assumed that it was illegally obtained. Seems some are a bit hasty to brand the 'cheater' tag onto anyone that keeps a large stock of items on their vendors. I understand why, too. Cheating is frustrating to honest players.

    I'm certainly not saying that this particular vendor is legit...I have no idea, and no way of knowing *for sure* that the goods in question were obtained illegally.
     
  24. Paris_Hilton

    Paris_Hilton Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I let the GMs and devs do the investigating.

    I do know how folks x shard and trade. I'm sure I'm not the first to suspect and give them the benefit of the doubt a few times because of that. Yet they're still restocking months after I first saw that vendor. Hmm. I think I remember one crafter tartly telling me the last time I mentioned said vendor, it could be legit.

    If we ran each of those kits through a machine that would declare them clean or scripted, I just wonder about the results. All clean? Aye, I can see that happening....lol. There is no way a x sharder can verify their BRSKs are legal or not. So IMO, even if the seller isn't scripting, they'd be extremely naive to even resell BRSKs in that quantity.

    So while we could argue back and forth that the vendor is run by a legit seller, I'm still pointing at those kits and asking a GM to check out their source. The source is, after all, where the cheating occurs. I still bet duck...

    Wenchy

    [/ QUOTE ]




    Keep up the good work!




    [​IMG]
     
  25. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well I did post earlier that I've seen that vendor running for over a year...That's quite a lot of kits [​IMG]

    I wouldn't mind being questioned if I'd only just seen the vendor, but I am very careful to not accuse anyone unless I truly do believe rules have been broken. It's a bit daft to suggest a witch hunt when I've left this guy alone all this time.

    I fully understand that this player could be simply trading in illegally obtained items and never ran a script in his life. But I think it's unlikely a player would be so silly as to load up a vendor like that and not question his suppliers' conduct. I also wouldn't put it past said player to be running bots himself, because again, it's a possibility.

    Regardless of the owner's conduct, I would still like the GMs to investigate where the kits did come from in case this is another scripter ring. I don't think I'm being particularly harsh in doing that given the quantity on that vendor and the year or so he's been conducting this business.

    Wenchy
     
  26. Guest

    Guest Guest

    *nods*
    We have ducks like that on Catskills too.
     
  27. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I should have added that I do think investigations of these suspected vendors should be conducted.

    A year of that continuously is *alot* of kits. If just on their own *once in awhile* maybe I could understand...or perhaps a character that is known just to craft and do BODs that just runs one vendor. Not sure if that is making any sense...I'm not quite sure how to explain what I'm getting at.

    Maybe a certain criteria for distinguishing the 'could be legit' from the 'totally insane'. I suppose those that look for this sort of thing probably have one, now that I think about it.
     
  28. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I didn't think Doomsday's post was supporting this vendor in particular, or any ill-gotten goods.

    It just seems that anytime someone finds a stock of something desirable, it is assumed that it was illegally obtained. Seems some are a bit hasty to brand the 'cheater' tag onto anyone that keeps a large stock of items on their vendors. I understand why, too. Cheating is frustrating to honest players.

    I'm certainly not saying that this particular vendor is legit...I have no idea, and no way of knowing *for sure* that the goods in question were obtained illegally.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    My point exactly. Does any one here have solid evidence that this or any of these "bot vendors" have done anything illegal to obtain the things they sell? What about people who exchange BODs legally to fill them and sell the rewards? Or the people who have many accounts for the purpose of collecting BODs accounts that they use to MANUALLY collect and fill BODs on because yeah those exist also.

    Sure there are still people cheating to obtain things in the game and there probably always will be but not EVERY player is cheating because they have a large quantity of something. But hey i must be "bot" farming doom for artifacts to because I have so many to sell eh...

    Never be so hasty to make such accusations against others because if you are in fact wrong you look like a fool.
     
  29. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well I'm not exactly standing holding a burning torch outside the shop.

    I simply want this guy investigated to be sure. I've seen enough to become suspicious. The thing is, we all have to decide at which point to call the GM and let them decide. If you want to wait till I verify 1k of kits sold that's up to you [​IMG]

    This thread is not about proving which of us right or wrong. If you check my OP you'll find I was asking where to send the report to and also what was happening on other shards with these vendors. I wondered how much of this was still going on since the burnings.

    Wenchy
     
  30. Guest

    Guest Guest

    But at the same time pointing the finger at anything "suspicious" looks foolish.

    I pay the same as anyone else to play the game and you don't see me pointing my finger at all the other players. I am not a GM and I am sure that EA will handle it the same regardless of the input from myself or others. Therefore I see no reason to sit around policing the game on my own time let alone pay money to do so.

    Either play the game and enjoy it for what it is or go apply to become a GM so that you can make things better for those that want to play it.
     
  31. Guest

    Guest Guest

    There's at least two vendors exactly like that on Catskills in Luna. Two kits visable in 2D
    Here's one. This vendor has tons of kits for sale every week. This vendor was sold out and empty as of yesterday. Today:
    [​IMG]