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But But...I am a KNIGHT!

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Miri of Sonoma, May 27, 2012.

  1. Miri of Sonoma

    Miri of Sonoma Lore Keeper
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    :( Am I the only one upset that I am not being offered a knight title because I am female? What the heck is that!!! *FROWNS* A warrior ,especially, should be able to get a knight title regardless of sex!!
     
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  2. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    What title are you being offered in place of knight?
     
  3. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    Hmm, true enough! Support.
     
  4. Miri of Sonoma

    Miri of Sonoma Lore Keeper
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    I get offered dame, duchess viscountess and such.....PFFT! :(
     
  5. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    Well in a historical sense that would be correct. Duke Miri would be odd,but I'd see no problem with either gender being a knight.
     
  6. Miri of Sonoma

    Miri of Sonoma Lore Keeper
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    *laughs* aye I am only talking about the knight title...I don't want to be a duke anyway :hahaha: . But I am a paladin and a knight of my guild..those other titles are not for me. If I cant be a Knight of Yew then I will just be a citizen. I am really disappointed though :(
     
  7. Mirt

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    I don't know if there even is a geneder on Knight I mean while there were no female knights in history I always viewed it as gender neutral it seems like that could be easy enough to add in to the gump for female characters.
     
  8. Bobar

    Bobar Babbling Loonie
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    Seems like an oversight to me. What other classification would apply to Joan of Arc?. I certainly see no reason why Knights should not be female.

    Just had a quick check online and it seems the French had titles.

    The title chevalière was exclusive to female knights

    Another title also used was "Chevaleresse" - French, Female Knight
     
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  9. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    I wonder would it be possible to trick the system to allow you to have the knight title by using the magery polymorph spell.
     
  10. Madrid

    Madrid Slightly Crazed
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    No sympathies here! No such thing as a Knightess..unheard of!

    There's lots of discrimination in Sosaria i.e. Semindar and Unicorns are prejudiced against the sexes. Need to tow the line.;)
     
  11. Velthur

    Velthur Guest

    Wrong: Joan of Arc was a female knight.
     
  12. Amber Witch

    Amber Witch Slightly Crazed
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    Unfortunately there was never a female version of a knight. Knights were always men. In today's world in the SCA a woman can become a knight and she will be addressed as 'Sir' just like her male conterparts.
     
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  13. Mirt

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    She was not. To be a knight one had to be noble born. One also had to be knighted by a king. Joan de Arc was a female warrior to be sure but she was also of peasant birth in France when there were only what came to be known as nobles of the sword, which meant you had to be born a noble.
     
  14. virtualhabitat

    virtualhabitat Lore Keeper
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    I refuse to be a dame and baronetess actually sounds ridiculous when you say it out loud. Go on, say it out loud, I'll wait -see, I told you so.

    If my girl can hack and slash with the best of them she ought be known like the rest of them! Give me Knight!
     
  15. virtualhabitat

    virtualhabitat Lore Keeper
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    Not true, Look up the Order of the Garter in England, 14th century. Also the Order of the Hatchet in 12th century Spain. Female knights were certainly not common, but not unheard of.
     
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  16. Mirt

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    Just so your aware the Order of the Garter is limited to the very pinacle of the royal family and then members of other royal familys. They would not be called knights as they already have a higher rank. Additionally they are not what is known as a military order. Additionally the name supernumerary Knight in England refers to something more akin to Peerage then Knighthood with a more correct naming being Sir and Madam. It would be great if we had someone who was a royal scholor chime in on that. I am not familiar with the Order of the Hatchet. Still that being said if it was spanish then the title Knight isn't correct either. Nobility and titles don't really travel accross national lines. While to some extent there were corrosponding levels across different countrys there were huge differences. My limited understanding is that Spain didn't so much have knights (an English and French concept) as it had Cavalleros which is more a term for Calvary in what I have seen.
     
  17. PsychoKinetic

    PsychoKinetic Journeyman
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    History aside... In game the lady deserves her "Knight" title.
     
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  18. Mirt

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    I firmly agree. Like I initally said I don't really think there is anything that makes the title Knight masculine. Just because it historically was doesn't mean it should be in an RPG.
     
  19. old gypsy

    old gypsy Grand Poobah
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    According to the answers.com wiki:

    A female knight was usually called a "Dame".
    Dame (in the UK) - the title given to a woman equivalent to the rank of knight.

    Another title also used was "Chevaleresse" - French, Female Knight

    The title chevalière was exclusive to female knights, the head of a fiefdom that had been headed by a male and conceded to a female, or the wife of a knight could be called a chevaleresse.

    I understand wanting one's female character to be a "knight", but I also tend to appreciate traditions from times past. I'm just antiquated, I guess. :)
     
  20. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Inquisitor
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    Hmmmm.... looks like that is news to Edna.....

    Untitled.jpg
     
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  21. Bobar

    Bobar Babbling Loonie
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    A problem here is the conflict between the title of Knight which is a rank and can be awarded to the biggest wimp in the realm and the concept of the knight as a warrior. The OP is a warrior and a Paladin, she fulfils my idea of what constitutes a knight. A warrior following the virtues is, to my mind, a true knight regardless of gender. I reckon that within our game we are talking about the concept not the rules of nobility.

    Let us not forget that this is Europa and not England and if the French or the Spanish or any other country recognised female knights then so should we. If she wants to hold that title she should have the option.

    I agree with another poster that according to strict protocol Joan of Arc was not a knight as she was not ennobled, but again she was a true warrior and a Soldier of Christ and at least to me the embodiment of what a knight should be. I am not of the opinion that noble birth inherently confers the right to be considered a knight, to me that right is earned with deeds and actions.

    With regard to women in Britain not being Knights the following is interesting -
    The first woman to be granted a knighthood in modern Britain seems to have been H.H. Nawab Sikandar Begum Sahiba, Nawab Begum of Bhopal, who became a Knight Grand Commander of the Order of the Star of India (GCSI) in 1861

    Anyway this is only a game we all play and surely we can have our own rules?.
     
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  22. old gypsy

    old gypsy Grand Poobah
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    LOL... Did you ever watch Dame Edna's interview with Charleton Heston? (I've always been a diehard Heston fan). Was one of the funniest things I'd seen in a long time. :)
     
  23. Doubleplay

    Doubleplay Lore Keeper
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    I know I am mixing apples and oranges, but when I wanted to make a player called Loretta, I created a female toon. Guess it could have been a male. Would you say it is just "custom" to call the female Loretta? I am not trying to inject some politically correct thread here, just asking if the Knight issue might be one of "custom" too.
     
  24. virtualhabitat

    virtualhabitat Lore Keeper
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    The Order of the Hatchet was bestowed on the women who took up arms against the Moor army trying to retake the city of Tortosa, Spain. They certainly earned it. As to someone's comment about Spanish knights not being knights and more like cavalry -well, lets just say that is a little more than insulting to the Spanish. Many of the greatest stories about knights, classic chivalry and heroism come from Spain's medieval period. Who does England have to compare with El Cid? Robin Hood? What a joke.

    Spain was renown throughout Europe as a manufacturer of some of the finest armor money could buy. Unlike England, Spain's Orders of Knighthood were always militaristic, focused more in deed than in birthright. Spain produced, without a doubt, many of Europe's finest Knights and contributed, in no small part, to what we think of when we say the word 'chivalry'. England produced archers, sea dogs, and brought us pickled herring.

    Seriously, why are we even using English titles of nobility, It should be French!
     
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  25. Kojak

    Kojak Lore Master
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    female knights - gah - what's next medieval gay marriages? lol
     
  26. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    Someone needs to research marriages.... anyway....

    The problem is that the titles that are being handed out in UO atm are bought and paid for, not necessarily earned. Even someone without any weapon skills can be a 'knight'. Kind of like positions in todays government.
     
  27. virtualhabitat

    virtualhabitat Lore Keeper
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    No, the next thing will be gender change. doh! Wait! We already have that! My sampire is a pre-op female that still likes to wear mens armor!
     
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  28. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    That's like a guy being mad he can't have a lady title.
    Want to be a knight you have to use a sex change token.
     
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  29. virtualhabitat

    virtualhabitat Lore Keeper
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    Speaking of sex change tokens, shouldn't those be craftable using the tinker skill with taint and and a little corruption?
     
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  30. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Yarite... like I am gonna let some tinker operate on me...
     
  31. Cear Dallben Dragon

    Cear Dallben Dragon Babbling Loonie
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    Dawn was a knight
     
  32. PsychoKinetic

    PsychoKinetic Journeyman
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    This character has been awarded the "Knight" title six times.


    Is the character male? Is the character female?


    Does it even matter anymore?


    virtueGump.png
     
  33. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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  34. Frarc

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    *whew* I'm i glad my house is in (Translated in english) in Knightsstreet and not DameStreet! ;)
     
  35. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Weird. When British people are knighted--by royalty--aren't they coined Sir or Dame? Like Sir Ben Kingsley, or Dame Judi Dench?
     
  36. Kylie Kinslayer

    Kylie Kinslayer Grand Inquisitor
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    << ROFL at some of the posts here

    :thumbsup:
     
  37. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    I will be visiting Toledo,Spain next spring when I go back. I hope I get to buy a sword made there. :)
     
  38. Amber Witch

    Amber Witch Slightly Crazed
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    I read this and thought.. some things never change.
     
  39. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Women should be able to be Knights if they so desire!
     
  40. Miri of Sonoma

    Miri of Sonoma Lore Keeper
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    Absolutely! And maybe these bought titles are not a good example because anyone (err any MALE *frowns*) can buy one so it doesn't really make you a knight, or a duchess or an earl. And not being able to buy a knight title is not so much the issue for me as not having a female paladin warrior ,who follows the virtues, recognized as a knight of Sosaria! Surely there have been female knights in Sosarian history..someone mentioned Dawn. So the title should be available (and without a sex change *laughs*) but as far as I am concerned Miri of the Gentlebreeze IS a knight!

    :sword:


    BTW Thanks for the replies *smiles*
    Strength and Honor!
     
  41. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    Taking a step away from UO specifically-

    I have always looked at a Knight as something more of a spiritual thing. Who you are inside. It's about (partly) standing up for someone who cannot stand up for themselves, regardless of the arena. You don't HAVE to swing a sword to be a knight. It's a title of honor, not bound to sex (or race or religion for that matter).
     
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  42. QueenZen

    QueenZen Always Present
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    You can ! I still have my finely crafted Toledo sword, with hand crafted leather cover too,
    that I bought from Toledo, Spain when I went there in the 1970's.

    Just be careful ya not buyin a *touristy* one, go for buying the real wonderfully crafted ones,
    and there are specialty swords/dagger etc. making shops,
    that make and sell the real deal, or there were.
    Spain is also a great place to buy suede and fine crafted leather goodes too,*or was.*

    Course nowadays, ya may have to ship it home, back then we COULD have it in our luggage.

    Now ya may find it won't go thru regular airline^airport baggage checks,
    with the newer flying global regulations
    on what we can can not take/put in luggage, flying home nowadays.
     
  43. QueenZen

    QueenZen Always Present
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    Since nowadays folks are becoming knighted for being song writers, musicians, actors etc.
    and since I AM a Queen, I dub thee, KNIGHT-ED for all ye efforts and loyalties, putting out fires,
    picking up trash, arresting angry rioters etc. for the city/cities of *insert city or cities here* of UltimaOnline on fire !! Ye are now a knight !!

    [​IMG]
     
  44. Miri of Sonoma

    Miri of Sonoma Lore Keeper
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  45. Mirt

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    Ok so I have done a bunch of digging to try and figure out historically what is what. I am the first to admit that I am not a Medievalist I called in a few favors. While I am still waiting on the proper sources I did figure out this. Knight as a royal rank is by most European countrys normally a birthright that can only come by being of noble birth. As old gyspy pointed out in England the female rank equivallent to Knight is Dame. That being said the Middle Ages suck in refrence to a fantasy RPG. For one most Knights were not as one poster put it "warriors of Christ". In fact most were low tier nobles and believe me ladys chilvary only applyed to the small percent of nobles out there. There are some rather graphic texts about what is acceptable to do to peasants. That being said from a military order standpoint Knight is both a noble rank and a military honor to some extent. It doesn't have a defined gender. Therefore I think that while it would be nice to allow the ladies to still get the rank of Dame they could fix it by adding the title Esquire for men and allowing Knight to be a title for both genders that added in a requirement to kill some raiders as well. It allows a military style title and still keeps the options for those that want to be Dames. It also adds in a requirement that you have directly fought for your chosen town. Its just an idea but it seems to both preserve history and allow for the creativity that fantasy needs.
     
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  46. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    I know enough about swords to know what to look for. My friend that I will visit says that there are still smith shops in Toledo,and she visited them just a couple of weeks ago.

    The sword I'll buy will have to be packed in with the checked luggage and will have to be declared at the check-in desk.[/quote]
     
  47. Mirt

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    Galen your not that far off from the limited primary sources I dug up on the databases. That being said it would be important to realize that certification isn't the right word it was the right to do that. In the middle ages the world was controled by Guilds and nobles, and the Church. The guilds told you what you could and couldn't make. How much it could be sold for and what the quality had to be. The Church well they covered tons of things from money lending to marriage. The nobles on the other hand would give grants allowing things. Many Knights were not feudal lords but they did own property (usually a small farm) but they were the only ones allowed to own armor and weapons like they did. This didn't really end until the White Companys of the Italian Rennansance.
     
  48. elspeth

    elspeth Guest

    I'd like to add my support. No matter what historical context, women should be able to be Knights in this game. Remove Dame and replace with Knight or give women "Knight" and give men something like "Sir" or "Esquire".
     
  49. Bobar

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    Given this a little more thought and it seems to me that by not giving females the option to be a Knight the designers have contradicted part of the original game concept. The Op is a warrior and a PALADIN. Now paladins have a small basis in fact but these days are used mostly in RPG games - see following (Many later fantasy-themed games, such as World of Warcraft, have followed suit by depicting paladins as holy knights, paragons of virtue and goodness.). This game allows a player to be a Paladin IN THE SAME CONTEXT. So if we can role play a Paladin in UO regardless of gender it follows we must be able to be a Knight, because they are one.
     
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  50. Spiritless

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    Should get back to the kitchen, imo... women aren't "knights".